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clickhappy
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AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:29 am

How does Air France decide which routes get the 777 vs. which get the A340?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:39 am

The 777 is fitted with a premium F/B/Y cabin while the A340 are fitted with a high-density tourist configuration. The 777 goes on big-money routes like CDG-LAX, CDG-JFK, etc while the the A340 goes on vacation routes like CDG-SXM.
 
EWROwznj00
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:46 am

I know EWR used to get 777, A340's and even a 747 once in a while, but now I think it's only A340. JFK gets an A330 and definitely the 777, but no A340 as far as I know. I'm guessing seasonal shifts in demand are a major factor.

I read on here recently, I think that it was one of the Qantas threads on their upcoming order, that the A340 was used specifically on the SMX route because the 777 would take a payload restriction due to mountains in the Caribbean. Is that true?

Edit: As pointed out, there is that cabin layout factor if they can fill those first and business class seats.

[Edited 2005-12-31 21:49:52]
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gigneil
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
The 777 is fitted with a premium F/B/Y cabin while the A340 are fitted with a high-density tourist configuration.

Not exactly.... 2 class, yes. High density, not really.

You want to see what high density is wait until those ORY based 773ERs arrive.

N
 
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 2):
I read on here recently, I think that it was one of the Qantas threads on their upcoming order, that the A340 was used specifically on the SMX route because the 777 would take a payload restriction due to mountains in the Caribbean. Is that true?

WTF! Im sorry but if the point in that sentence was that the 777 cant climb fast enough to clear the mountains after SXM that is just bullshit! im not trying to bash the 340 by saying its a slow climber but the 777 has one of the best climb rates, and once or wice air Europe used their 777-200ER to SXM. All i know is that some airlines dont use their 777 to airports with runways shorter than 7600 feet not because the plane cant make it, but just as company rule.

Please correct me if im wrong
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BG777300ER
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:54 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):
You want to see what high density is wait until those ORY based 773ERs arrive.

What routes will those take?
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FlySSC
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting BG777300ER (Reply 5):
What routes will those take?

Starting June 2006 : FDF, then PTP, and in Feb. 2007, ORY-RUN.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
the A340 are fitted with a high-density tourist configuration.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):
Not exactly.... 2 class, yes. High density, not really.

Gigneil is right. The Y cabin on board A343 is not "high density". It is exactely the same cabin as in the B777 (same seat, pitch 32", PTV, etc ...).
It's just a bigger Y class.

They are configured with 36J/236Y or 30J/260Y
while the B772 are 12P/56J/202Y and soon a new config with new seats : 4P/49J/211Y.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):
You want to see what high density is wait until those ORY based 773ERs arrive.

They will have config. of 14J/36S (premium Economy)/422M

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 4):
WTF! Im sorry but if the point in that sentence was that the 777 cant climb fast enough to clear the mountains after SXM that is just bullshit! im not trying to bash the 340 by saying its a slow climber but the 777 has one of the best climb rates, and once or wice air Europe used their 777-200ER to SXM. All i know is that some airlines dont use their 777 to airports with runways shorter than 7600 feet not because the plane cant make it, but just as company rule.

Please correct me if im wrong

Despite the fact that AF's B777 config is not adapted to the type of traffic (tourists), the B777 suffers from the restrictions imposed to a twin. The B777 couldn't take enough fuel to fly nonstop to CDG to comply with those restictions imposed in case of an engine failure on take off.
 
N79969
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 4):
WTF! Im sorry but if the point in that sentence was that the 777 cant climb fast enough to clear the mountains after SXM that is just bullshit! im not trying to bash the 340 by saying its a slow climber but the 777 has one of the best climb rates, and once or wice air Europe used their 777-200ER to SXM. All i know is that some airlines dont use their 777 to airports with runways shorter than 7600 feet not because the plane cant make it, but just as company rule.

Please correct me if im wrong

Do not know if this true or not but I doubt it.

These sorts of restrictions are not based on climb performance anyway. Rather they based on the "driftdown" altitude of airplane following an engine shutdown. This really affects enroute planning more than anything else. 3 or 4 engine airplanes lose a little altitude while two-engine airplanes lose quite a bit.

All transport category airplanes must be able to clear obstacles by a certain margin during takeoff assuming the loss of an engine.
 
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mats
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:35 am

What about cargo capacity? How do the 777 and A340 compare to each other?
 
anxebla
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:38 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 6):
They are configured with 36J/236Y or 30J/260Y

Why such difference among the same A343s?
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DfwRevolution
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:54 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):
You want to see what high density is wait until those ORY based 773ERs arrive.

How (or were) the pavement issues with the 773ER at ORY solved?
 
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:05 am

Quoting Anxebla (Reply 9):
Quoting FlySSC (Reply 6):They are configured with 36J/236Y or 30J/260Y
Why such difference among the same A343s?

if you have 60in pitch for J (dunno if thats what AF does but thats pretty common these days), an extra J row effectively ends up taking up at least maybe 72in which is more than 2 Y rows but less than 3! Plus those J passengers need a lot more closet space for all that extra hand luggage they have!!.
 
Rj111
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:46 pm

There was an interesting article on this on that AirTransportBiz site. Unfortunately it's gone, but IIRC before the A340 cabins where refitted, the A340 was used on long 'thin' routes Jakarta being the example, and the 777 on the long heavy routes GRU being the example. But i didn't understand that as the planes accomodate roughly the same capacity. Bear in mind that was a long while ago and i can barely remember it, so if somebody manages to dig that site up again it would be very appreciated.

I'd imagine the A340 would work best on the routes with light payload (influenced from cargo), and the 772ER on those with heavier payload. The optimal cruise weight of the A343 is probably much nearer the OEW. But as they are both configured for different markets, i guess AF doesn't bother with this.

Happy New Year, BTW.

[Edited 2006-01-01 04:47:28]
 
ikramerica
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:58 pm

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 11):
if you have 60in pitch for J (dunno if thats what AF does but thats pretty common these days), an extra J row effectively ends up taking up at least maybe 72in

no, if you have 60in pitch, one more row would take up 60" more space. that's what pitch means...  Wink
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md90fan
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:12 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
The 777 is fitted with a premium F/B/Y cabin while the A340 are fitted with a high-density tourist configuration. The 777 goes on big-money routes like CDG-LAX, CDG-JFK, etc while the the A340 goes on vacation routes like CDG-SXM.

IIRC AF's code for the high density A340's are 34V? And they go to ATL too  Smile
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:17 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
no, if you have 60in pitch, one more row would take up 60" more space. that's what pitch means...

but IIRC AF are putting that extra row into the 2nd cabin and when you add the partition to the Y cabin, you take up a few more inches and often up to a foot in practice because pitch is the distance from the same point of one seat to the next and if you are segregating a cabin with a partition you need more space.
 
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:04 pm

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 14):
IIRC AF's code for the high density A340's are 34V? And they go to ATL too

There is NO HIGH DENSITY AF A343.
There is only two different configuration, just like on the B744.

Before the cabin were refitted, the configurations were :

B772 : 12P/56J/202Y
A343 : 06P/42J/204Y

As there was no range capacity consideration for AF (both A343 & B777 could fly to the same destination from AF's Hub CDG), and the Y capacity was very similar, the A343 was used on the route with less "Premium" Class demand.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:17 pm

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 2):
but no A340 as far as I know.

I know that a friend of mine flew CDG-JFK in an A340 during the summer of 2004 and on the way back he flew the 777
 
Geo772
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
Quoting Trex8 (Reply 11):
if you have 60in pitch for J (dunno if thats what AF does but thats pretty common these days), an extra J row effectively ends up taking up at least maybe 72in

no, if you have 60in pitch, one more row would take up 60" more space. that's what pitch means... Wink

Actually seat pitch is the measurement from the front of the seat back to the back of the seat back in front. This is why many quite a few carriers use very thin seat backs, it actually allows more seats to be fitted at the same pitch.
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FlySSC
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 11):
if you have 60in pitch for J (dunno if thats what AF does but thats pretty common these days), an extra J row effectively ends up taking up at least maybe 72in which is more than 2 Y rows but less than 3! Plus those J passengers need a lot more closet space for all that extra hand luggage they have!!.



Quoting Anxebla (Reply 9):
Why such difference among the same A343s?

Configuration : 36J/236 Y :

30 J seats in the first part of the cabin (2x2x2), between doors 1 & 2.
6 seats J on 1 row only after the Galley (row 7), right behind Doors 2.

Then the cabin partition, and first row (row 17) of Y cabin (2x3x2), then the rest of Y Cabin (2x4x2).

Configuration 30J/261 :

30 J seats located, like in the other config, in the first part of the cabin, between doors 1 & 2.

Y cabin, starting right behind doors 2.
3 rows of Y seats (24 seats) replacing the 6 J seats (row 14, 15, 16) + 1 Y seats at the row 17 (2x4x2, instead of 2x3x2 in the previous config).
236 + 24 + 1 = 261.

Same seats pitch in both config : 32"

Seat map config 36J/236Y :

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_France/Air_France_Airbus_A340.php
 
Mir
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 4):
WTF! Im sorry but if the point in that sentence was that the 777 cant climb fast enough to clear the mountains after SXM that is just bullshit! im not trying to bash the 340 by saying its a slow climber but the 777 has one of the best climb rates

On two engines, you're absolutely right. But what about on one engine? That's what really matters in determining takeoff performance - how fast the aircraft will climb with an engine failure. Methinks the 340 on three engines will outclimb the 777 on one engine, hence the weight restrictions at certain airports for the 777, and hence that 747s and A340s are much more prevalent at SXM than are big twins like the 777, 330 and 767 (except for those from North America, which aren't affected as much by the restrictions).

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ManchesterMAN
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:11 am

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 18):
Actually seat pitch is the measurement from the front of the seat back to the back of the seat back in front. This is why many quite a few carriers use very thin seat backs, it actually allows more seats to be fitted at the same pitch.

Its actually from any point on one seat to the same point on the seat in front typically the back of one seat to the back of the other. Using thinner seats just serves to give more legroom but doesn't allow more seats to be fitted unless the airline then reduces the pitch.
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ikramerica
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 15):
but IIRC AF are putting that extra row into the 2nd cabin and when you add the partition to the Y cabin,

you never mentioned this in your post.

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 18):
Actually seat pitch is the measurement from the front of the seat back to the back of the seat back in front.

actually, it isn't.
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jacobin777
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
The 777 is fitted with a premium F/B/Y cabin while the A340 are fitted with a high-density tourist configuration. The 777 goes on big-money routes like CDG-LAX, CDG-JFK, etc while the the A340 goes on vacation routes like CDG-SXM.

CDG-SFO also gets the 777 during the summer months.....

Quoting Mats (Reply 8):
What about cargo capacity? How do the 777 and A340 compare to each other?

while I dont' have the exact number on me off had, the 777's beats their respective A340 in terms of carbo.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 23):
CDG-SFO also gets the 777 during the summer months.....

 no 

SFO is currently served by an A343, configured with 36J/236Y

During the summer season, a B744* is used on the route, not a B777.
The B777 has been used sometimes between March and June, as a transition from the A343 to the B744, but never used on CDG-SFO on a long term regular basis.

* During the summer 2005, the B744 used to SFO were configured 13P/58J/324Y.
Next summer 2006, the B744 used to SFO will be configured 40J/393Y.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 24):
The B777 has been used sometimes between March and June

= SFO also gets the 777 during the summer months...

[Edited 2006-01-01 19:49:58]
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:49 am

sorry... double posting

[Edited 2006-01-01 19:49:42]
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 25):
= SFO also gets the 777 during the summer months...

SFO, in summer, is scheduled with a B744.

Maybe a B777 was used one day irregularly (just like in winter, an A332 was used sometimes iso an A343). It happens all the time, to all destinations : a B772ER to CCS iso B744, an A343 iso a B772ER to BEY etc ... , but the B777 has never been scheduled regularly during a whole season to SFO. At the most, the B772ER was used as I wrote above, during a few weeks in a transition period between April and June, or at the end of the summer, in October.

[Edited 2006-01-01 20:32:56]
 
jacobin777
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 24):

SFO is currently served by an A343, configured with 36J/236Y

During the summer season, a B744* is used on the route, not a B777.
The B777 has been used sometimes between March and June, as a transition from the A343 to the B744, but never used on CDG-SFO on a long term regular basis.

* During the summer 2005, the B744 used to SFO were configured 13P/58J/324Y.
Next summer 2006, the B744 used to SFO will be configured 40J/393Y.



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 27):

SFO, in summer, is scheduled with a B744.

Maybe a B777 was used one day irregularly (just like in winter, an A332 was used sometimes iso an A343). It happens all the time, to all destinations : a B772ER to CCS iso B744, an A343 iso a B772ER to BEY etc ... , but the B777 has never been scheduled regularly during a whole season to SFO. At the most, the B772ER was used as I wrote above, during a few weeks in a transition period between, March/April and June.



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 25):
= SFO also gets the 777 during the summer months...

thanks AirPacific747... Wink


I've seen the 777 on multiple occasions during the late spring, early summer months as I go spotting during the summer and I travel out of AA's gates from SFO.....

how AF does their scheduling, I don't know, but what I do know is that I've seen the 777's a bunch of times the past few years...
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FlySSC
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:35 am

Very few shots of an AF'B772ER at SFO. Most of them taken in ... May/June !


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AirPacific747
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):

thanks AirPacific747...

 Smile well I know you are right

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 27):

SFO, in summer, is scheduled with a B744.

yes, it may be scheduled with a B744, but that is irrelevant to the comment Jacobin777 made. All he said was that he sees the 777 at SFO sometimes during the summer months. I don't really see why we have to turn this in to an argument
 
jacobin777
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 29):
Most of them taken in ... May/June !



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):

I've seen the 777 on multiple occasions during the late spring, early summer months as I go spotting during the summer and I travel out of AA's gates from SFO.....

that proves my point..

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 30):
yes, it may be scheduled with a B744, but that is irrelevant to the comment Jacobin777 made. All he said was that he sees the 777 at SFO sometimes during the summer months. I don't really see why we have to turn this in to an argument

thanks for clearing up the issue.... Smile
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AirPacific747
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
thanks for clearing up the issue....

ofcourse..  Smile
 
SKA380
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 18):
Actually seat pitch is the measurement from the front of the seat back to the back of the seat back in front. This is why many quite a few carriers use very thin seat backs, it actually allows more seats to be fitted at the same pitch.

I hope you haven't fitted many seats using this way of measuring.  Wink
Like said before here, seat pitch is measured from one point of a seat, to the same point on the following seat.
Usually we use the front stud as a reference.

Leif
 
Rj111
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:05 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):
while I dont' have the exact number on me off had, the 777's beats their respective A340 in terms of carbo.....

Careful.

The A343 has slightly more room in total and also less of that taken up by pax baggage. Alternatively the 777 offers higher total payload and therefore cargo density. And i believe an OCW - relatively speaking - further from the OEW, meaning the 777 is optimised to carry heavier cargo payloads (on top of the pax payload) than the A343.

Same applies to A345/772LR and A346/773ER, but replace the word slighty with negligibly.
 
NorthstarBoy
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:26 am

just for what its worth, AF 84, the sfo flight, operates January to March with an a343, March to October 28 with a 744 and switches back to an A343 on 10/29

on another, slightly unrelated note, it's ironic that the national airline of Airbuses home country, Air France, operates neither the A340-500 nor A340-600, one would think, that as a show of support to Airbus, that Air France would operate an all Airbus Long Haul fleet

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cricket
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:12 pm

In the summer of 2004 - I flew with a friend DEL-CDG-ATL and returned JFK-CDG-DEL on AF. All four flights were on the A340, which was nice since I hadn't flown the A340 before (I had done several 777 legs with SQ and TG). But what surprised me that AF used the A340 on the DEL flight, given that DEL is being looked at as a A380 destination sometime, but then AF switched DEL to a 744 in the winter schedule. However, while flying Y I notice that a lot of my fellow passengers were tourists (many European tourists).
However, when I father flew DEL-CDG-MEX later in the same summer - he told me something interesting - he was flying F and he was the only passenger there, he said even J was relatively empty. However, another friend flying J-class from BOM said that BOM-CDG is operated by a the 777 (I'm not sure whether it is the 773ER or 772ER) because BOM would have a lot more J-class traffic.
So I figure that the A340 is used on sectors where load on Premium cabins is low.
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FlySSC
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:38 pm

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 35):
on another, slightly unrelated note, it's ironic that the national airline of Airbuses home country, Air France,

Airbus is a European company. Not only French.

So Air France, as a French Airline, should buy only Airbus ?
So I presume that US Airlines should buy only Boeings ?
Aeroflot should buy only Tupolev/Illyushin ?

Air France buys the aircraft most adapted to its network, operations, passengers type, an to make money.
According to the results posted all the recent years, the choice doesn't seem so bad ...

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 35):
Air France, operates neither the A340-500 nor A340-600,

A340-500 : This is an ultra Long-haul airliner. Why would AF operate it ?
All AF's destinations can be reached nonstop with the B772ER/B773ER/B744/A343 (except PPT, which could not, anyway, be served nonstop even with an A340-500).

A345-600 : This model is available only with RR Trent engines. Air France has selected long time ago to rationalize (and save money) its maintenance around the GE/SNECMA Engines for all its fleet, hence the B772ER/B773ER orders instead of A346.
For the same reason, note also that originally, AF refused to order the A318 as long as it was proposed only with the PW engines. The first orders came when Airbus finally decided to propose the A318 with CFM56 engines, because they had problems developping the PW 6122.
 
AF022
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RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:24 pm

If AF upgrades certain points to B744 in the summer - SFO, for example - what routes get downgraded? AF must have a seasonality problem, right?, with heavy summer demand? If frequency and/or capacity increase on the US routes, where do frequency and/or capacity drop?
 
Tom_EDDF
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Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 35):
on another, slightly unrelated note, it's ironic that the national airline of Airbuses home country, Air France, operates neither the A340-500 nor A340-600, one would think, that as a show of support to Airbus, that Air France would operate an all Airbus Long Haul fleet

"another useless, unappreciated northstarboy comment"

Well... at least after the KLM merger, AF can't be considered as a french, national airline. There's some dutch in this company, and the state of france owns less than 50% of it.

Airbus is a corporation under french law (S.A.S.), however, EADS has an 80% share in Airbus. EADS again is a company under dutch law (N.V.), owned by

- DaimlerChrysler (>30%), a German corporation with some American heritage
- SOGEADE (>30%), a french company partly owned by the french government and Lagardère,
- SEPI (5%) from Spain
- institutional and private investors/shareholders, EADS employees (34%)

The remaining 20% of Airbus are owned by BAe Systems from the UK.

So, depending on how you define national airline, Airbus has at least 4 of them - Lufthansa, Air France, Iberia and British Airways (being currently or formerly state owned airlines).

When will the north american public ever learn that Airbus is not and has never been a "french" company?

Cheers
Tom
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5192
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting AF022 (Reply 38):
If frequency and/or capacity increase on the US routes, where do frequency and/or capacity drop?

SXM goes from DAILY in winter to 5 or 6 x Weekly in summer.
HAV is DAYLY in winter, 4 x Weekly in summer
SGN & HAN ar served via BKK in summer but go NONSTOP in winter
Idem for SCL (nonstop only in Winter, All flights via EZE in summer)

In summer, The Dominican Republic is served by 1 flight CDG-PUJ-SDQ-CDG 4 x Weekly, while in winter, it is 1 x DAILY (4 x Weekly PUJ + 3 x Weekly SDQ) Nonstop both ways.

CDG-MRU is DAILY in winter, 5 or 6 x Weekly in summer

Etc ...
 
MarkATL
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:07 am

RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting Tom_eddf (Reply 39):
When will the north american public ever learn that Airbus is not and has never been a "french" company?



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 35):
on another, slightly unrelated note, it's ironic that the national airline of Airbuses home country, Air France, operates neither the A340-500 nor A340-600, one would think, that as a show of support to Airbus, that Air France would operate an all Airbus Long Haul fleet

I'm trying to figure out which one of these statements is more ignorant.

[Edited 2006-01-03 04:35:40]
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5192
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:16 pm

Quoting Tom_eddf (Reply 39):
Well... at least after the KLM merger, AF can't be considered as a french, national airline

Actually, I would say it the other way ... as AF owns KLM, and not the opposite.

Quoting Tom_eddf (Reply 39):
There's some dutch in this company, and the state of france owns less than 50% of it.

There again, you should rather say : "there's some French in this company (KLM) ..."
 
User avatar
Flying Belgian
Posts: 1908
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 12:45 am

RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:37 am

@ FLYSSC:

Was the choice of putting the A343 on the second CDG-JNB flight dictated by perfo reasons or due to a lower premium demand ?


FB.
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
Stoney
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:37 am

RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
On two engines, you're absolutely right. But what about on one engine? That's what really matters in determining takeoff performance - how fast the aircraft will climb with an engine failure. Methinks the 340 on three engines will outclimb the 777 on one engine

And the answer taken from a very informative post by Woodreau in the Tech/ops Forum (actually it's about the different speeds, but I guess the reasoning also works here):

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 3):
V2 is the takeoff safety speed - this minimum speed must be reached before the aircraft reaches 35ft above the takeoff surface with one engine inoperative. It guarantees a specific climb gradient up to 1500ft for obstacle clearance. From the time the landing gear is retracted until 400ft (second takeoff segment), it guarantees a 2.4%, 2.7%, and 3.0% climb gradient for 2-, 3-, and 4-engine airplanes. Above 400ft (final takeoff segment) to 1500ft the climb gradients are 1.2%, 1.5%, and 1.7% for 2-, 3-, and 4-engine airplanes.

So there's the answer: A quad can climb steeper with one engine inoperative (twin: 2.04%; quad: 3.0%). My reasoning would be that exactly this gradient decides how full you can load an airplane (in the SXM case with fuel) to still be able to clear the hills with one engine inoperative.

Greetz
Stoney
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
 
boeingguy1
Posts: 395
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:31 am

RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 37):
So Air France, as a French Airline, should buy only Airbus ?
So I presume that US Airlines should buy only Boeings ?
Aeroflot should buy only Tupolev/Illyushin ?

...well, the AeroFlot comment is mostly true...
"...Gatwick South!? Id rather crash in Brighton!"
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting Tom_eddf (Reply 39):
Airbus is a corporation under french law (S.A.S.),



Quoting Tom_eddf (Reply 39):
When will the north american public ever learn that Airbus is not and has never been a "french" company

Well, if it was incorporated in France under French law, legally speaking it is a French company. Just like in the US, where a company might be headquartered in NY, have it's facilities scattered throughout the US, but is incorporated in Delaware under that state's law, it is, legally speaking, a Delaware company.

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 41):
Quoting Tom_eddf (Reply 39):
When will the north american public ever learn that Airbus is not and has never been a "french" company?

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 35):
on another, slightly unrelated note, it's ironic that the national airline of Airbuses home country, Air France, operates neither the A340-500 nor A340-600, one would think, that as a show of support to Airbus, that Air France would operate an all Airbus Long Haul fleet

I'm trying to figure out which one of these statements is more ignorant.

 rotfl  Perhaps you are being a bit too harsh. "Misguided," perhaps?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5192
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 43):
Was the choice of putting the A343 on the second CDG-JNB flight dictated by perfo reasons or due to a lower premium demand ?

This second flightwas started to face the increasing demand on that route, particularly in Y, that's why the A343 was chosen. The A343 has the new seats config J/Y on this flight, while the DAILY B744 is still in the "classic" P/J/Y config.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):
Not exactly.... 2 class, yes. High density, not really.

Relative to the 772ER, they are highER density. Given that the 772ER is physically larger than the A343 and can carry more passengers in a similar configuration yet the A343 carries more in this case, because of the lack of a third premium cabin, yes, they are relatively high density. Given that the 772ER has a lower CASM than the A343, it makes sense to load more seats into the A343 in order to make them more economically viable.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 6):
Despite the fact that AF's B777 config is not adapted to the type of traffic (tourists), the B777 suffers from the restrictions imposed to a twin. The B777 couldn't take enough fuel to fly nonstop to CDG to comply with those restictions imposed in case of an engine failure on take off.

The 773ER shouldn't have such issues
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: AF 777 Vs A340 - How Do They Decide?

Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:47 am

Quote:
I read on here recently, I think that it was one of the Qantas threads on their upcoming order, that the A340 was used specifically on the SMX route because the 777 would take a payload restriction due to mountains in the Caribbean. Is that true?

I don't think this is true. The 777 is qualified by BA to take off from SAN, fully fueled and fully loaded, and fly over the "terrain" at the end of the runway (Point Loma) - all on one engine. It's the reason BA didn't switch to a 767 (which is unqualified to do this).
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