MuseAir1981
Topic Author
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Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:48 am

What US airlines are not currently utilizing fifth freedom rights.
 
CAL
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:49 am

Not sure about US airlines but I know that AeroMexico still has rights to fly MEX-MIA-MAD and MEX-MIA-CDG. Picking up pax in MIA.
I believe DL has some thru CDG also but not completely sure.
CAL........Continental Airlines....... Work Hard, Fly Right
 
AirCop
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:16 am

I believe BA was granted 5th freedom from SEA to SYD after the last agreement between the two countries. Doubtful that they could ever make any money on that route.
 
thaiaggie
Posts: 221
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:21 am

I think Thai has 5th freedom right from London-New York City but they have never used it.

[Edited 2006-01-01 20:21:56]
Barrow, Alaska in Feb. It was Cold!
 
EddieDude
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting CAL (Reply 1):
I know that AeroMexico still has rights to fly MEX-MIA-MAD and MEX-MIA-CDG.

Interesting CAL, thanks for the info. Indeed AM used to fly MEX-MIA-Europe before they had suitable aircraft to do the route non-stop, but I did not know that they had traffic rights ex-MIA. I guess there is already a lot of capacity between MIA and each of MAD and CDG these days to interest AM. In addition, with the huge demand between Europe and MEX, the strong competition that European carriers represent, and AM's lack of sufficient widebodies, I don't see AM flying MIA-Europe soon.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting MuseAir1981 (Thread starter):
What US airlines are not currently utilizing fifth freedom rights.

What fifth-freedom rights does Delta still have (and, for that matter, which ones did they have) from Frankfurt?
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BigGSFO
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 5):
What fifth-freedom rights does Delta still have (and, for that matter, which ones did they have) from Frankfurt?

At one point or another, Pan Am (now DL) once linked FRA with:
WAW
SVO
LED
PRG
BUD
BEG
DBV
ZAG
ATH
IST
TLV
VIE
LHR
DEL
BOM
KHI
CAI

I think they had 5th freedom on these routes.

AA might have some old 5th freedom rights within Europe/Middle East inherited from TWA.
 
EWROwznj00
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:08 am

I'm pretty sure Delta used to do New York-Frankfurt-Delhi, and maybe Bombay. But I don't think they fly beyond Frankfurt anymore, and now use CDG as their base European base, so to speak. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: Another one comes to mind is UA's LHR-DEL, and DEL-HKG. Do they still own these rights?

[Edited 2006-01-01 21:10:11]
Yes, there is a typo in my username. No need to point it out.
 
amirs
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:18 am

Pan Am had CDG - TLV rights and I think so does DL.

I wonder if LY still has JFK - LHR/AMS ans EWR - STN.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 6):

AA might have some old 5th freedom rights within Europe/Middle East inherited from TWA.

I think AA has 5th freedom rights from BRU-India.....so they can fly from ORD-BRU-DEL, etc. if they want to.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
deltagator
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting CAL (Reply 1):
I believe DL has some thru CDG also but not completely sure.

DL uses CDG to originate flights to Mumbai and Chennai.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
tpaewr
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 9:01 am

RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:49 am

FF flew from CDG to ATH and TLV as I recall.


SA)">CO has slowly reduced it's various 5ths in SA. Justing ending now is PTY-UIO. Outside the Americas SA)">CO also flew TPE-SEL a few years back.
 
vv701
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting MuseAir1981 (Thread starter):
What US airlines are not currently utilizing fifth freedom rights.

United. US airlines have, under the Bermuda 2 Agreement, fifth freedom rights between London and four German cities - Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg and Munich. PanAm and then United had a fleet of 727s based in Europe to operate these and other fifth freedom flights within Europe (that I cannot recall the details of although one linked a German city with Krakow in Poland). (I know this because I flew from London to Krakow via a German city on a single 727 probably 15 years ago.) I also believe that United has unused fifth freedom rights from Prestwick to Oslo!
 
Gemuser
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:08 am

Any US airline has fifth freedom right from Australia to Asia. Not sure of exact cities/countries but certainly include SIN, BKK, Jakata and Japan. There may be capacity limitations.

In return Qf have fifth freedom US to Europe.

None of the above are currently being used.

Gemuser
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B4REAL
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:23 am

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 7):
I'm pretty sure Delta used to do New York-Frankfurt-Delhi, and maybe Bombay

DL's India access was JFK-FRA-BOM historically. Then it was moved JFK-CDG-BOM in 2002 or 2003 with growth of SkyTeam. In holiday rush 2004, they reinstated JFK-FRA-BOM parallel to JFK-CDG-BOM, but did not do it holiday rush 2005. In 2005 they added JFK-CDG-MAA.
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EWROwznj00
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:28 pm

Delta didn't do FRA-DEL also? I was almost sure they did; I though they gained that/both from Pan Am. Oh well. Do they plan on flying to Delhi in the future? OR are they going to leave that to KLM/AF?
Yes, there is a typo in my username. No need to point it out.
 
rwsea
Posts: 2423
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:39 pm

Quoting EWROwznj00 (Reply 15):
Delta didn't do FRA-DEL also? I was almost sure they did; I though they gained that/both from Pan Am. Oh well. Do they plan on flying to Delhi in the future? OR are they going to leave that to KLM/AF?

I don't think DL would plan on DEL in the future, especially now that CO and AA are both offering nonstops from the U.S. I would assume that DL would prefer to focus on BOM and Chennai for the time being. If they were to consider a new destination in India, I would put my $$ on BLR.

DEL is a huge city, but not as much business traffic as Bombay, Chennai, or Bangalore.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:06 pm

In the 1970-80s TWA had a pretty extensive operation beyond Paris; some were through flights and some were change-of-gauge 727s. The cities I can remember were Geneva, Milan, Rome, Athens, and Tel Aviv. I believe their round-the-world flight also went through Paris.
 
centrair
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:52 pm

I think that NW had a 5th freedom to OZ from Japan that they used once and then gave it up. I might be wrong.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
EWROwznj00
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 18):
I think that NW had a 5th freedom to OZ from Japan that they used once and then gave it up. I might be wrong.

If I'm remembering correctly, Northwest flew, or wanted to fly from Tokyo or Osaka to Sydney, the basis of which was the 1952 bilateral agreement between the US and Japan. I remember seeing an old UA route map with a similar proposed route, but I don't think anything came of the UA route.


With respect to Japan, are United and Northwest are the only US airlines that still enjoy 5th freedom rights beyond Japan? I know the bilateral was reworked, but I don't know the details off the top of my head. Please correct if I'm wrong.
Yes, there is a typo in my username. No need to point it out.
 
BOSSAN
Posts: 175
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:59 am

NW operated JFK-OSA-SYD thrice weekly, but Australia claimed NW was in violation of the US-OZ bilateral and Japan protested that the proportion of Japan-Australia traffic was too high. NW was required to limit its fifth-freedom Japan-Australia traffic to 50% of the passenger load. This resulted in some great New York-Australia fare sales and eventual abandonment of the flight. http://airtransportbiz.free.fr/Networks/NWAustralia.html
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:36 am

UA from AKL-MEL and I think any Australian city ex AKL. They don't even serve AKL anymore.
 
COSPN
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:07 pm

the Old CO classic trans- Tasman 747's and DC-10's with Pubs  Smile

AKL-BNE,SYD,MEL
 
MarkATL
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:43 pm

I don't know if it's still true, but at one time flying to DEL by US carriers was very diffilcult. US carriers were (are?) prohibited from by the US government from overflying Afghanistan. This required a much longer time/fuel consuming routing to DEL from the UK/Europe. This was one of the reasons for DL (FRA) and UA (LHR) dropped it as a destination.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
EWROwznj00
Posts: 140
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:50 am

Overflying Iran was a problem too I think. It added an extra hour of flying time, and then after 9/11, Afghan airspace was closed to US carriers, which made the DEL routing hard. Anyone know why UA only used the 767 on this route, I would imagine they could have filled a 777 or a 747 easily from LHR. Also, what route does NW's AMS-BOM take; does it enter Iranian airspace or not? Is Iranian airspace even an issue?
Yes, there is a typo in my username. No need to point it out.
 
AirScoot
Posts: 667
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 21):
UA from AKL-MEL and I think any Australian city ex AKL. They don't even serve AKL anymore.

The AKL to MEL sector wasn't 5th freedom if I remember correctly. It had to be stopover/online connection traffic only... It's been ages since I've sold it so I may be wrong.
 
Tan Flyr
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Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 6):
AA might have some old 5th freedom rights within Europe/Middle East inherited from TWA

A few years back, when AA bought TW there was a thread on here listing all the routes that AA had acquired with the TWA purchase. IIRC, there is also a listing on a DOT website somewhere. The list was quite interesting. Howard Hughes negotiated quite an impressive list for TWA back in the 40's and early 50's. It seemed that dozens of routing possibilites still existed when the list was put on here. AA still should have all kinds of opportunites from JFK should they ever decide to use those authorites and 5th freedoms.

Perhaps someone can find the list.
 
justapassenger
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:36 pm

RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:19 am

The recent Hong Kong/US bilateral gave US airlines fifth freedom rights to five (?) new cities. United flies to Hanoi from Hong Kong, so the other four are unused.

In addition, I think that US carriers have had fifth freedom rights from Seoul going back to the end of WWII.
 
alexinwa
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2000 2:08 pm

RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:12 am

BA SEA-SYD non-stop would be something to see.

I wonder if it could be done non-stop both ways?? I know AC could only do SYD-YVR non-stop, HNL was the stop for fuel YVR-SYD.

I actually don't think it would be that bad for BA with the right mix of services on a 777? Maybe not daily!!

Most of the SEA-SYD traffic did LAX, then SFO, now, HA is picking up alot of traffice via HNL. Great connections both ways, one stop, and it breaks up a long LAX/SFO-SYD non-stop!!!
You mad Bro???
 
kubus
Posts: 115
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:46 am

DL had them through FRA in early 90's.
My first DL flight was in '93 WAW-PRG-FRA, I have no idea what aircraft it was but I do remember Delta colors and PRG was a pit stop.
From FRA it was Delta's L1011 onto Cincy (I can never remember Cincy's code). And then onto final destination in PIT.
I do remember PanAm 727's in WAW, I think they were flown LHR-FRA-WAW and LHR-FRA-KRK (Krakow).

Oh VV701 already mentioned PanAm.
 
FlyboyOz
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:39 am

Qantas used to fly HKG-SIN-HKG but never use it for age since SAR in HKG.
The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
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RE: Unused Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:43 am

I believe it's UAL that holds right's to fly USA-GRU-South Africa. And AA recently stopped, or is about to, their GRU-ASU leg.

Cheers
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