QANTASpower
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Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:51 pm

With BA now only flying to SYD from LHR do members see them in the medium term possibly withdrawing from Australia all together and joining the likes of Lufthansa, KLM, Alitalia and just about all other European airlines.

While it sounds extreme they have dropped every other Australian city.

While they fly here 2 x daily I wonder how profitable they are.

They may just hand it over to the QF code share.
 
S12PPL
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:02 pm

I think that would be like United pulling out of the Sydney route. It seems to me the flag carrier of the country would stay in Sydney at the very least.
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yowza
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:36 pm

Given historical ties and the large UK populatio in Australia and VV I can't see BA dropping Sydney ever. They may at some stage need to become creative in where they stop off on the way, but I can't see this route being dropped.

YOWza
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:54 pm

Me too, just can't see the route being dropped ever to be honest.
 
Orion737
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:15 pm

Well I couldnt see Melbourne or Perth being dropped by BA, but that happened despite the huge VFR and business links plus tourist traffic plus historic ties!!!
 
Gemuser
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:25 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 4):
Well I couldnt see Melbourne or Perth being dropped by BA, but that happened despite the huge VFR and business links plus tourist traffic plus historic ties!!!

Have to agree here, it was inconsivable that BA would pull out of PER & MEL, but it happened! So I wouldn't assume SYD is toally safe.

Gemuser
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ikramerica
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:03 am

Once QF gets more A380s on the route, I see BA ending it, relying entirely on the codeshare with QF. And of course you can also connect in HKG or elsewhere with a QF codeshare as well, should you desire to fly BA on the longest sector.

Combined with the EK/SQ A380 competition, can't see how BA could justify the route considering the QF relationship. Allowing QF to operate it fully would also boost QF to prevent total domination by EK/SQ.
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:12 am

Despite what everyone says, you've got to remember that as well as the traditional competition from CX, SQ, TG, MH, etc, you've a little Middle Eastern carrier called Emirates that has been taking a lot of taffic on the Kangaroo route. Yes, BA has withdrawn direct services to PER, BNE and now MEL, but you can still connect at SIN. Ask yourself this - if your at BA HQ and you've got to decide whether to use a 744 flying SIN-MEL or expand into India for more revenue and codeshare with your Joint Service Agreement partner to MEL, which would you choose?

Everyone talks of the flights BA and QF used to have, the multi-stops, etc, but from the Summer you'll still have BA operating LHR-SIN-SYD, LHR-BKK-SYD plus the LHR-SIN flight (Connecting into PER and BNE flights), plus QF operating LHR-SIN-MEL, LHR-HKG-MEL, LHR-BKK-SYD and LHR-SIN-SYD - all of which are codeshared (and revenue shared) with BA. If BA and QF can fill their premium cabins to MEL and SYD then they'll retain through flights. Did BA need to operate to PER or BNE if it wasn't filling the seats in F and J? Better to codeshare with QF via SIN.

Personally I think LHR-SIN-SYD will be safe, but maybe LHR-BKK-SYD might eventually become a LHR-BKK flight, especially once the whalejet enters QF service.
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jasepl
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:10 am

SYD on BA should be safe, even after accounting for BA's fickleness with the Antipodean routes.

They've dumped AKL, NAN, PER, ADL, BNE and MEL, but never Sydney.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:23 am

I'm curious. Why did BA pull out of other Australian cities? I thought Oz was one of their biggest moneyspinners?
 
QantasffCL
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:42 am

"I'm curious. Why did BA pull out of other Australian cities? I thought Oz was one of their biggest moneyspinners?"

The problem is for a 24 hour flight business and first class passengers, were not paying much more than they were for a 13-15 hour flight to Asia. They yields are low

However considering the Aus-UK market has grown significantly in the past couple of years, couldnt BA follow Emirates/Singapore tatics to survive?
 
cedarjet
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:58 am

I can't see BA pulling out of Sydney, for one thing there is plenty of government business between London and Canberra and most of the British contingent fly BA business class. If Sydney was weak they'd kill one of the daily flights - no airline flies two 747s a day to a weak destination, BA could do it with a 777 easy (like Austrian / Lauda) if there was just a trickle of passengers. It may not be the cashcow of the century but it's a solid route.

Plus, BA are getting whalejets too you know. Not saying Sydney will see them (more like Narita, LA, JFK, Jo Burg, Beijing) in the first stages but don't ignore the A380. Just cos it hasn't been ordered by BA yet, it should be figured into the equation if you're speculating about BA's future.
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A340600
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 11):
Plus, BA are getting whalejets too you know

As of currently, no they're not
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monkeyboi
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:06 am

SYD is a well performing route for BA.

It has much higher Club loads than MEL.
 
vv701
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:22 am

Quoting Monkeyboi (Reply 13):
SYD is a well performing route for BA.

But how long does a BA 747 spend unproductive on the ground at SYD? Stopovers are from 12 to 20 hours with LHR arrival and departure restrictions. Of course QF can put their arriving aircraft on to other routes. So do not hold your breath.

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 1):
It seems to me the flag carrier of the country would stay in Sydney at the very least.

What is a 'flag carrier'? I suppose in the UK it might be VS. They claim to be the British flag carrier on the nose of each of their aircraft above the girl in the bathing suit holding the Union Flag! But they have never flown to Australia.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:28 am

Oh for god's sake.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 14):
What is a 'flag carrier'? I suppose in the UK it might be VS. They claim to be the British flag carrier on the nose of each of their aircraft above the girl in the bathing suit holding the Union Flag! But they have never flown to Australia.

The definition of 'flag carrier' goes deeper than the livery (and by the way, what do you think that is on BA's tail?). Or maybe you're just trying to wind us up. But if so, get your facts right - Virgin fly from Heathrow to Sydney with an enroute stop in Hong Kong every single day with an A340-600.

And may I repeat:

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 11):
Just cos it hasn't been ordered by BA yet, it should be figured into the equation if you're speculating about BA's future.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
vv701
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:18 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 15):
The definition of 'flag carrier' goes deeper than the livery

First sorry about my VS error. I am clearly living in the past!

According to Wikipedia the definition of a flag carrier is every single airline or shipping company registered in a specific country. This is why I was trying to get S2PPL to explain what he meant by the term!

Wikipedia says:

'A Flag Carrier refers to: A transportation company, such as a shipping or airline company that is registered in a given state. Example: American Airlines, while a private firm, is a US flag carrier.'

So that makes every US registered airline a flag carrier which is, as you say, just about as deep as you can get but is actually pretty meaningless.
 
whitehatter
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:15 pm

Quoting Monkeyboi (Reply 13):
SYD is a well performing route for BA.

It has much higher Club loads than MEL.

sorry but that's total rubbish.

Rod Eddington made it clear that Sydney was underperforming and made a poor return on assets, as well as poor profit on turnover. Willie Walsh will happily chop the route if BA finds it can redeploy the aircraft and assets on something which makes more money.

As it is, BA's Australian routes are high cost to operate and could easily slip into losses. BA is no longer BOAC. If it doesn't perform, it gets the chop.
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scotron11
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:32 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 17):

If it doesn't perform, it gets the chop.

Totally agree.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 14):

But how long does a BA 747 spend unproductive on the ground at SYD?

Too long! If they do drop SYD and terminate both sectors in SIN/BKK, they could probably do the turnaround in a couple of hours, ala HKG. What would it cost them? With the JSA, absolutely nothing!
 
planesarecool
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:11 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 11):
Plus, BA are getting whalejets too you know.

Ummm, no they're not! Most T5 gates aren't going to be big enough for the A380, so that would be completely clueless.
 
United Airline
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:25 pm

Wonder if they will ever return to NAN, PER, BNE, AKL etc. And wonder if they will ever restart service to MEL after it has been axed.
 
planemanofnz
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:39 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 14):
But how long does a BA 747 spend unproductive on the ground at SYD? Stopovers are from 12 to 20 hours with LHR arrival and departure restrictions.

Then why not do what Emirates do. Put the aircraft on routes to AKL/CHC e.t.c

Quoting United Airline (Reply 20):
Wonder if they will ever return to NAN, PER, BNE, AKL etc

I can only see AKL out of this list. Wonder if it is possible, now that BA have dropped MEL-LHR and given it to QF that QF could frop AKL-LAX and give it to BA. AKL currently has no european airline flying into it.
BNE/MEL/PER are all easily a one-stop service through SIN. However AKL is a two stop, trhough SIN/BKK/HKG and MEL/SYD.
NAN would not get enough traffic I don't think. QF don't even fly there. I think Fiji will be left to FJ as it is part-owned by QF.
 
AirNZ
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:47 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 15):
The definition of 'flag carrier' goes deeper than the livery (and by the way, what do you think that is on BA's tail?).

Hmmm! actually, the tail of a BA aircraft does not carry the Union Flag......as a lot of people seem to think/assume it does!
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cedarjet
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:13 pm

BA can code share on Cathay's HKG-AKL flights. Surprised they don't already in fact.
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kiwiandrew

RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:26 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 23):
BA can code share on Cathay's HKG-AKL flights. Surprised they don't already in fact.

they do , at least they did when I left AKL several months ago - it is purely a marketing arrangement - they get no revenue from this sector and all pax must connect directly to/from a HKG-LHR vv BA flight - no 5th freedom traffic and no stopovers .
 
BCAL
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:54 pm

As WhiteHatter said in Reply 17, Rod Eddington made it clear that flights to Australia were a poor return on assets and a poor profit in turnover. I think it was at a major airline convention in Malaysia that Rod Eddington said that BA would happily withdraw from UK/Australia flights should their joint agreement with QF expire, or if the route under performs.

Many aviation enthusiasts are still living in a dream world whereby they see their flag carrier regularly flying to former colonies and dependencies. Sadly, the bean counters are now looking at revenue/profit figures, and shareholders are demanding more profits and more return on their capital, rather than the demand to provide a service as a matter of National pride.

Consider the economics of the London/Australia route. Average flying time is 22.5 hours, including a refuelling stopover. Allowing 4 hours at destination before the aircraft starts its return journey, I think that you would probably need a minimum of 5 aircraft to operate a daily service in both directions. You will then probably need 3 separate crews for each of these aircraft, probably more if they stopover in Australia for longer than the normal 24 hours, so you are looking at 20 flight and cabin crews. Compare this with a 747 flying to JFK/Newark or India - possibly 1.5 rotations in a day with much premium traffic and shorter crew stopovers - you will see that the overheads are very much higher and the fares on UK/Australia route are lower on a mileage basis. And that is before you even take into account stationing a ground and engineering crew at the destination (although QF currently handles BA at Australia and BA handles QF at UK) not to mention sales and support teams.

With increased competition from the likes of EK etc (who are well placed almost at mid-point on the route and can therefore operate higher yielding flights), both BA/QF must be feeling the pinch. Sadly, I think it will only be a matter of time before we see BA pulling out of Sydney and Australia completely leaving QF to carry their passengers. Particularly with WW, the mercenary cost cutter, at the helm.

Anyone remembers Branson's boast that VS will soon dominate the route and most people would fly VS to Australia? Loads are reported to be disastrous on VS flights between HKG and SYD and it remains to be seen how long VS can sustain the losses before they pull out.

[Edited 2006-01-03 15:57:55]
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Concorde001
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 25):

You are absolutely correct about the economics of UK/Australia flights. I think BA will only return to MEL and other Australian cities when aircraft technology will allow non-stop and faster services between London and Australia. As for BA dropping SYD, would that not make the JSA null and void? For a Joint Services Agreement to function, surely BA must at least operate a service to an Australian city using its own aircraft/crew? What would be 'joint' about the BA-QF JSA if only QF operated UK-Australia flights?
 
monkeyboi
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 14):
But how long does a BA 747 spend unproductive on the ground at SYD?

This is true of many longhaul routes that BA flies. Although it is obviously not ideal to have an aircraft to sit on the ground for hours, nor is it ideal to try and attract business at un-popular times.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 17):
Rod Eddington made it clear that Sydney was underperforming and made a poor return on assets, as well as poor profit on turnover.

Under performing perhaps. But at what rate? Rod Eddington stated that the ENTIRE asia/pacific network has been under-performing (india/PVG/PEK excluded). That doesnt mean it will pull out of the entire region. But SYD is still turning a profit, albeit not as much as BA would like. SYD also provides s higher rate of BA's european feed than any other asia/pacific destination. Which in BA speak 'adds onward value'.

The problem with BA today (and take it from someone who works for them) is that if a particular area of the business, or particular route isnt returning double digit returns or increases in traffic/yield/profit it is considered 'under performing' or not good enough.

You also have to remember that BA has 100+ aircraft in its longhaul fleet and has to fly them somewhere. It is sometimes safer to fly them to a destination that returns a modest profit and a good history of profit, than commiting resources to 'the flavour of the month' - unless it is a sure thing!
 
Orion737
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:04 am

The VFR market from the UK to Western Australia is very large indeed. I cannot understand how neither BA or QF can ignore this traffic and not even provide a direct, one stop flight to Perth.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:13 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 28):
The VFR market from the UK to Western Australia is very large indeed. I cannot understand how neither BA or QF can ignore this traffic and not even provide a direct, one stop flight to Perth.

they could 'ignore it' precisely because it is VFR - a notoriously price sensitive market with lowish yields , however , in reality they are not ignoring it - they have a couple of connecting flights per day over SIN and often the ground time is no worse than if it was a direct flight via SIN.
 
A999
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:17 am

The term "Flag Carrier" was first used by airlines like PanAm and TWA "showing the Flag" internationally. Southwest is not a flag carrier, neither are other domestic airlines only.
 
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Richard28
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 25):
I think that you would probably need a minimum of 5 aircraft to operate a daily service in both directions.

ISTBC, but I think that only 3 aircraft are required to operate a daily LHR-SYD service, not 5.

Surely BA's flights must create a lot of demand for european shorthaul into LHR, to connect on to the SYD flights?

Last time I was on BA15 I was surrounded by various europeans/russians - many more than a trip to the USA in my experience...
 
Orion737
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:34 am

Well not all the VFR into Perth from the UK is backpackers on a budget. Many of the VFR passengers would probably pay more to fly direct to Perth from LHR without a change of aircraft.
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:50 am

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 21):
Then why not do what Emirates do. Put the aircraft on routes to AKL/CHC e.t.c

Hmmm, dump more capacity on the Tasman route right in the face of their JSA partner QF? And using 747s like TG did? Aircraft utilisation may be higher but not certainly not the yield ...

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 22):
Hmmm! actually, the tail of a BA aircraft does not carry the Union Flag......as a lot of people seem to think/assume it does!

So what is it then? The BA tail has always been a stylised Union Jack to me.
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vv701
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:21 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 25):
Allowing 4 hours at destination before the aircraft starts its return journey, I think that you would probably need a minimum of 5 aircraft to operate a daily service in both directions.

But 4 hours is totally unrealistic. If a 747 leaved LHR for SYD late in the evening on Day 1 it will arrive at SYD in the early morning of Day 3. It cannot arrive back at LHR between midnight and between 5 and 6 in the morning because of night time flying restrictions. So it has to sit on the ground for 12 and not 4 hours and will be back at LHR very early on Day 4.

If it leaves LHR around midday on Day 1 it will arrive in SYD in the late evening of Day 2. It will then have to sit on the ground until the late afternoon of Day 3 before departing for LHR spending 20 and not 4 hours on the ground. It will arrive at LHR in the early morning of Day 4.

Of course there are other equally unproductive routes like LHR-JNB (for similar reasons). It is the QF JSA that gives BA the opportunity to quit Australia, better utilise their fleet but not loose out commercially. If they quit LHR-SYD there will be significant cost savings and productivity increases with no loss of profit. If they quit LHR-JNB there will be productivity savings but, with no JSA, a loss of revenue and profit.

What is the point of having a JSA and not maximising the benefit from it?
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:10 pm

While agree that the ground time is totally unproductive, the thing I can't work out is why BA continued to fly wingtip to wingtip with QF on the LHR-SIN-MEL sector.

9:15p LHR 4 5:25a+2 MEL 2 BA 017 1-Stop 744 21:10
10:00p LHR 4 6:20a+2 MEL 2 QF 10 1-Stop 744 21:20


5:35p MEL 2 5:50a+1 LHR 4 BA 018 1-Stop 744
5:10p MEL 2 5:30a+1 LHR 4 QF 9 1-Stop 744 23:20

given that these carriers work in "partnership", why wouldn't you split the schedule and provide an alternate travel option.

BA should have adopted a similar schedule to that which qantas will no operate on the MEL-HKG-LHR sector.

something along the lines of..
LHR 13.00
SIN 08.00
SIN 09.30
MEL 21.30
[2-3 HR LAYOVER]

MEL 00.30
SIN 06.30
SIN 08.00
LHR 14.00
 
ikramerica
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:19 pm

Quoting A999 (Reply 30):
The term "Flag Carrier" was first used by airlines like PanAm and TWA "showing the Flag" internationally. Southwest is not a flag carrier, neither are other domestic airlines only.

I think it was used with ocean liners long before it was used by commercial aviation...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
AirNZ
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:56 pm

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 33):
So what is it then? The BA tail has always been a stylised Union Jack to me.

It is a red/white/blue design and 'styled' as you say.......but it is most certainly not the Union flag by any means, but at a quick glance many assume it is and probably because they expect it to be there (i.e. since when did the Union flag ever have a blue horizontal bar?). With all due respect (and not intended as any insult to you), anyone who thinks the design on a BA tail is the Union flag has no real knowledge of what the Union flag is (a combination of the flags of four nations). It must be remembered that a few years back, because of 'political correctness', BA publically announced that it was removing the Union flag from all it's aircraft......and Virgin Atlantic immediately announced that it would then fly it.
That is the day I stopped fly BA because in my opinion any airline who are 'embarrassed' to have the flag of their home country on their aircraft is not worth flying, and I don't care how good their service is!
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HKGKaiTak
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:56 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 35):
given that these carriers work in "partnership", why wouldn't you split the schedule and provide an alternate travel option.

BA should have adopted a similar schedule to that which qantas will no operate on the MEL-HKG-LHR sector.

I've been wondering about this question for a while too ... QF / BA just doesn't seem to have as flexible schedules on the Kangaroo Route as EK, SQ or CX.
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scotron11
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:45 pm

Looking at BA's schedule, BA009 arrives SYD at 0610 and BA015 arrives 0635. Returning BA016 departs 1625 and BA010 departs 1715. That is 10-11 hours they have 2 aircraft sitting around basically doing "nothing". Additionally, if you look at their schedule to HKG, where they operate 3 times daily, their aircraft sit around 7-8 hours before returning.

Quite a bit of "down" time for 5 744's, don't you think?
 
TNboy
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:21 pm

Qnatas (international) couldn't give a flying kangaroo about Perth, so why should BA bother?

We get direct QF services to Singapore, Tokyo, Hong Kong and Jakarta, and a three-times a week service to London (at the moment). Theres a codeshare to Johannesburg, and Australian Airlines to Bali (on and off). They dont even fly to Bangkok to connect with their other London services, let alone nonstop to New Zealand, China, India, etc., etc., etc.
Since BA stopped the daily 744 a few years back, Qantas has only given lip service to the Perth-London route.
Cheers
Bill
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planesarecool
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:28 pm

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 39):
Looking at BA's schedule, BA009 arrives SYD at 0610 and BA015 arrives 0635. Returning BA016 departs 1625 and BA010 departs 1715. That is 10-11 hours they have 2 aircraft sitting around basically doing "nothing". Additionally, if you look at their schedule to HKG, where they operate 3 times daily, their aircraft sit around 7-8 hours before returning.

Quite a bit of "down" time for 5 744's, don't you think

The only problem with the Hong Kong flights is that they're not quite long enough to make the return flight plus average turnaround at about 30 hours which thy need to due to restrictions at Heathrow. If they flew out, stayed for 3 hours then came back, they'd end up getting back at midnight/1am. For one, the passengers don't want to arrive back at this time, and also its out of Heathrow hours. I believe two of the 3 HKG flights have some of the limited early arrival slots anyway.
 
scotron11
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:07 pm

Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 41):

I believe two of the 3 HKG flights have some of the limited early arrival slots anyway.

I guess they have their reasons why they offer the schedule they do. It seems all their Asian services depart in the evening (except NRT). Is this to push their "sleeper service"? If they did schedule their departures to SYD earlier in the day, as 6thFreedom listed, they wouldn't have such bad utilization of equipment,IMO.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Cheers!
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:25 pm

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 37):
It must be remembered that a few years back, because of 'political correctness', BA publically announced that it was removing the Union flag from all it's aircraft......and Virgin Atlantic immediately announced that it would then fly it.
That is the day I stopped fly BA because in my opinion any airline who are 'embarrassed' to have the flag of their home country on their aircraft is not worth flying, and I don't care how good their service is!

It was a bad move on BA's part. The management at that time (under Bob Ayling?) thought that non-UK passengers were put off by the British snobbery and stuffiness and therefore avoided flying with BA. By dropping the UK flag, introducing the "World Colours" tails and even almost dropping the "British" from the airline's name, it was thought BA would have more appeal to non-UK passengers. The experiment was, however, unsuccessful. The British snobbery and stuffiness actually attracted many people to BA. Many felt that once they stepped on a BA aircraft no matter where it might be, they immediately felt "at home" in England and "safe" in British hands.

As always, Bearded took advantage of BA's predicament and promptly announced that VS planes would proudly display the Union Jack on their aircraft, just like when VS said they would take over and continue to operate BA's Concordes. Given that VS is 49% owned by SQ and 51% owned through non-UK resident trusts to avoid exposure to UK taxation, even though the airline and its aircraft are UK registered, they hardly have any justification to call themselves a "UK flag carrier".

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 39):
That is 10-11 hours they have 2 aircraft sitting around basically doing "nothing". Additionally, if you look at their schedule to HKG, where they operate 3 times daily, their aircraft sit around 7-8 hours before returning

Even if the aircraft were cleaned, overhauled and refuelled/restocked for the return flight within 2 hours of arrival at its destination, if it then departed immediately it would arrive back at LHR between 12.00 midnight and 5.00 am when LHR is normally closed to arriving aircraft - hence an average 5 hour sitting around at the destination airport.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
planesarecool
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Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:26 pm

Most Asian departures depart at night because the flights are usually long enough to take the outbound, turnaround and return through to the morning two days after departure. If for example the Hong Kong flights departed at 10am, they would end up getting to Hong Kong at about 3am, which is hardly convenient.

There is also the question of when aircraft are required. Remember that the Hong Kong flights depart and arrive from T1, and their arrivals typically follow onto Los Angeles and San Francisco departures. The Hong Kong departures in the evening would come off Narita and Los Angeles afternoon arrivals. If the Hong Kong flights were scheduled to depart during the day, you'd have San Francisco, Los Angeles and Hong Kong flights all departing around the same time. The Hong Kong flights would then get back the next evening, so you have lost all the aircraft needed for the LAX, SFO flights. In the end it would result in a lot of aircraft sitting idle in Heathrow. If you get me?

As for the Sydney flights, well they'd have to depart before about 3pm, because otherwise they are going to be arriving in Sydney when it is closed for ops. And if it departs then its still going to have to nightstop. Departing anytime between 11-3 would result in the aircraft getting to Singapore or Bangkok in the middle of the night, again not very convenient. And before that is when a lot of BA B747 flights are going and the amount of aircraft required again comes into question. At the moment, the evening departures are convenient for all pax leaving London, because if they are originating here it means they have a whole day to get ready, and don't have to get up specifically early. Its also convenient for business travellers because they can get in a full days work before flying back. The current flights get into the Asia stopovers in the early evening i believe, which means it has the same advantages for passengers joining here. It then gets into Sydney first thing in the morning, which means, provided the traveller has had a good sleep on the plane, they can get straight back to work, or straight into their holiday.
 
vv701
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 22):
Hmmm! actually, the tail of a BA aircraft does not carry the Union Flag......as a lot of people seem to think/assume it does!

Hmmmmm! Please tell BA that 'the tail of a BA aircraft does not carry the Union Flag' as they have obviously got it totally wrong.

On 6 June 1999 they issued a Press Release entitled 'BA flies the flag'. It started:
'British Airways Chief Executive Bob Ayling is ordering the painting of the Union Jack on over half the airline's aircraft tails. Up to 160 aircraft will 'fly the flag' reflecting the importance of the UK market.'

In an earlier press release dated 10 June 1997 entitled 'Sky high art' BA said about the new design on be put on their Concordes' tails:
'Union Flag - a stylised version of the British Union Flag, from the Admiral's Original Flag Loft in Chatham's Historic Dockyard . . .'

So they call the design 'Union Flag' and say that it is the Union Flag but apparently it is not!
 
Mr.BA
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:43 pm

On a side note, the flight to Melbourne usually aren't full, with SOB usually not exceeding 300 on the B747-400. On the very same day SQ and QF will always have passenger numbers many more than the BA flight. I don't have any clue why is this so too.
Boeing747 万岁!
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:44 am

As VV701 points out with his extracts, BA uses a stylised version of the Union flag based on a version from Chatham Dockyard (Hence why the tail design was known as Chatham Historic Dockyard). BA has never used a whole Union flag on its tails, but a segment. As for the blue horizontal bar you mention, firstly the flag is depicted fluttering, secondly it's a segment and thirdly as originally used on Concorde it did look better, but used that way on sub-sonic aircraft it left a lot of tail white, hence why we have the current stylised version that is stretched to fill the tailfin.


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G-BIKB in the original 1970s BA colours; G-BIKU in the 1980s Landor colours.


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G-BOAF in the Concorde version of Chatham (As the flagship Concorde was originally intended to be the only BA aircraft to continue displaying a version of the Union flag under the Utopia/World Tails schemes).

On a side point, the Union flag is made up of the flags of the three kingdoms that make up the United Kingdom - the red cross of St George (England), the saltire of St Andrew (Scotland) and the saltire of St Patrick (Ireland). Wales is a Principality rather than a kingdom, was legally integrated with England by Henry VIII in 1536 and never had its own flag until the twentieth century, hence why it is not represented on either the Union flag or the Royal Standard (Which displays the arms of England, Scotland and Ireland).
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:12 am

I think if BA does seriously consider leaving Australia that could open the door for QF to buy a follow-on order for the A380-800, provided that Airbus can successfully demonstrate 8,000 nautical mile still-air range at MTOW. The British Airport Authority (BAA) could allow QF to get more landing slots, most of which will be taken up by more A388 flights between LHR and SYD via BKK.
 
richardw
Posts: 3142
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: Will British Airways Keep Flying To Sydney

Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 48):
British Airport Authority (BAA)

BAA is a private company that runs airports. The British Airport Authority no longer exists. It was dissolved in 1986/87 nearly twenty years ago.

More information at http://www.baa.com/portal/controller...e26aa32010VgnVCM100000147e120a____

Yes because they believe their classes are better than QF

[Edited 2006-01-04 17:19:54]

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