wedgetail737
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OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:13 am

Happy New Year to everyone!

I've always been a fan of OAK since I used to live within 15 minutes of the airport during my childhood.

I was there during the weekend of December 15th and notice how far along the T2 expansion had been complete. I read from the Oakland Airport website that the T2 expansion with 5 additional gates for WN will be complete around the Fall of this year.

After WN moves out of gates at T1, what do you think will happen with the vacated gates? Will B6 expand significantly? Additional airlines?
 
EridanMan
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:51 am

Its a shame this didn't get a response, because I was wondering the exact same thing just a week ago...

I'd _love_ to see B6 ramp up their OAK operations... Add Seattle, Portland, Vegas, and *BEGS B6* Chicago (I know, they need to fly there first...).

Granted, My reasons for wanting such are Purely selfish - with those routes, I could do 100% of my flying on B6 Wink

In all seriousness though - I would imagine it would make a certain rather large amount of sense for jetBlue to Seriously expand their Bay operations seeing as the airline that is, conceptually at least, their number one competitor (Virgin America, as in huge startup funds, low fares, high service, appeal to yuppies type airlines) is still a year or so off... They currently have a chance to put a stranglehold on VA's home market a year before the upstart even boards its first flight- why not use it?

I'm sure people who actually know what they're talking about will tell me why I'm wrong:-P

-Scott
 
flashmeister
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:35 pm

I would be seriously surprised to see B6 start offering service for OAK, or LGB for that matter, northbound to PDX/SEA. The only one that I could potentially see would be LGB-SMF, and even that's a longshot.

North-south routes are already extremely well served:

Bay Area to PDX: 31 nonstops daily (8-OAK, 13-SFO, 10-SJC)
Bay Area to SEA: 40 nonstops daily (14-OAK, 16-SFO, 10-SJC)

LA Area to PDX: 25 nonstops daily (10-LAX, 5-ONT, 5-SNA, 5-BUR)
Bay Area to SEA: 35 nonstops daily (16-LAX, 4-ONT, 3-LGB, 8-SNA, 4-BUR)
 
wedgetail737
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:02 am

But I could see B6 starting up OAK-SLC or OAK-DEN service.
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:15 am

How many gates do they occupy in T1 currently?
They're not handing trophies out today
 
wedgetail737
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:22 am

I believe WN uses 4 to 5 gates at T1.
 
ScottB
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Thread starter):
After WN moves out of gates at T1, what do you think will happen with the vacated gates?

Is it certain that WN will give up all its gates at Terminal 1? Right now, they're running 133 weekday flights out of 11 gates -- that's over 12 turns per gate per day. I'd imagine they'd like to increase the number of gates they have in order to increase service, since they are most likely constrained now by gate availability.
 
LAXintl
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:06 pm

Unfortunately OAK lost is very active and creative marketing department that it had in the 1990s. The airport at that time aggressively pursued airlines and was able to capture several carriers including Tower Air, CityBird, Corsair and also was able to help maintain domestic competition via creative leases and discounted fee schedules. OAK even provided free advertising for carriers with billboards it owned around town including one adjacent to the Bay Bridge.

Unfortunately OAK has seen a decline in competition with reduced activities by airlines such as United and Delta and is becoming an prominently a near Southwest only airport. The only significant new entrant has been Jetblue, however the even this has been somewhat a disappointment as the carrier has yet to fully commit to further services as initially hoped for.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
wedgetail737
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:16 am

I think B6 would expand further if it had more gates at OAK. You can only do so much with two gates. It might not be a fair assumption that WN will move out of T1 once the T2 expansion is opened. But that's what I kind of gathered from the airport website.

OAK has managed to attract all those Mexican carriers like Taesa, Mexicana, Allegro and Azteca. Unfortunately, Taesa and Allegro do not exist anymore.

Also, 9/11 played a big roll in international and domestic service from OAK. Citybird is defunct. Martinair is now owned by KLM. KLM serves SFO and Martinair is not allowed to compete with KLM. It's too bad Corsair left town, though. I would love to see them back at OAK.

There is a new startup carrier out of HKG called Oasis Hong Kong Airlines that plans to start flying between OAK and HKG using 747-400's late this year. That's quite the achievement since there has never been scheduled nonstop service to Asia from OAK. Also, OAK really only has one dedicated international gate...Gate 1. Gate 3 is used occasionally as well as a door with a ramp just east of the Gate 1 jetway.

I don't think OAK is complaining too much about service there. Their numbers have been staggering since WN started serving OAK. B6 has been adding service to OAK pretty consistently, considering the lack of gate space. They will be starting up FLL-OAK service here soon. Don't be surprised to see OAK-EWR in the near future.

AA had a small increase in service when they started flying LAX and JFK, but they have always had the typical 4 to 5 flights daily to DFW. So, really, no change there. I wish they would reintroduce service to ORD.

CO has reintroduced service to OAK through IAH since they left OAK back in the 1990's when they dumped DEN as a hub. They have at least 3 flights daily to IAH. They used to have a couple of flights to EWR. But unfortunately, they are no World (DC-10's) or People Express (747's).

UA has its ups and downs at OAK, but they still serve OAK, LAX and ORD. Their only real addition was IAD with two flights daily.

DL used to have flights to SLC and DFW out of OAK during the 1990's. DL still has flights to SLC, but has introduced flights to ATL. DL never had ATL service out of OAK until now. Unfortunately, their DFW service was a loss.

Frontier Jet Express briefly served OAK from DEN using Mesa CRJ-100's/200's. When that service went to Horizon, they pulled the plug on OAK. I don't know how their loads were though.

NK briefly served OAK from DTW. Maybe they'll come back. But my money is on SFO for them.

AQ began flying OAK-HNL/OGG/KOA when they introduced 737-700's. That was a big boost for OAK since they've had trouble keeping Hawaii service.

Finally, Suntrips has a decent operation out of OAK using Ryan International 757's. They fly to Hawaii, Mexico, Costa Rica and the Azores (I think they still use North American's 767-300's for the Azores).

OAK is doing pretty good right now. If their masterplan holds out, we'll see more gates added perhaps where the old freight building is located now.
 
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ramprat74
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:04 am

How are they going to expand T-2? Looking at this pic. There isn't much room for expanding?

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...2.212805&spn=0.003845,0.010643&t=k
 
wedgetail737
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:30 am

Take gate 26 and run a building parallel to the waterfront. They took out the WN catering building. I believe the OAK airport website has a picture/diagram. They are adding 5 gates to T2. A lot of it is built already.
 
EridanMan
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:40 am

I haven't seen recent sat photos - but the new terminal is almost complete (they looked like they were putting in the jetways last week when I came in from Chicago)... looking at that sat photo- it looks like they knocked out the two southern-most gates, instead there is a new building that runs the same length as T1 running out along the southern shore. According to the flyoakland.com website, the new terminal is only going to add 5 new gates (I'm guessing knock out the two southern most and add 7 along the new extension, but thats pure speculation)...

Unfortunately, this is going to do nothing for my biggest moan about OAK - the inane traffic pattern outside... They really have outgrown the region-airport style one-door-for-entry-exit, and the loop back to pick people up includes a traffic light whose line can back all the way up to the terminal gates- its miserable...

Frankly - OAK has always frustrated me because it seems to have SO much potential... If they'd be willing to Sacrifice part of the old airport, there is more than enough room for a new 10kft parallel runway on the east side of the airport with a full 4300 ft seperation, which would make OAK the only airport in the bay area capable of parallel IFR operations- a boon to those of us who are sick of fog-induced SFO delays. OAK has the land, they have the location, why don't they go for SFO's jugular?

Instead they languish back, 2 miles from the nearest highway on secondary roads, with a laughable regional-airport style terminal design that mights life miserable during peak travel times, while SFO chokes the whole ATC system by fogging in almost daily during the winter...

This is all newbie/enthusiest speculation... but is there something I'm missing? Why, with all of its advantages (more land, better weather), is OAK still a second-tier joint? (honest question to the many one here who know more than me)
 
FCYTravis
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:16 am

OAK has a long-term plan to expand Terminal 1 and build a complete, modern double-deck flow-through traffic pattern with separated arrivals and departures. It's just a matter of funding.

As for service, well, it's hard for the legacies to compete at what is essentially a WN/low cost hub. Every other airline is left with just a small spoke operation, pretty much.

AA serves DFW, CO has 3x daily to IAH, DL does SLC and ATL, US has 5 or 6x service each to LAS and PHX, UA has flights to LAX, ORD, DEN and one (not two) to IAD. AS rounds things out with PDX, SEA and SNA. NW's the only missing legacy. Then there's B6 to LGB, JFK, IAD, BOS and soon FLL.

I don't know what more domestic legacy service OAK can, or should, really hope for. Keep the WN sugar daddy happy and they'll continue to get hundreds of flights daily to 19 cities throughout the West, Midwest and now to the East Coast.

[Edited 2006-01-05 22:22:01]

[Edited 2006-01-05 22:24:59]
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
EridanMan
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:46 am

Thanks for the full answer-

I guess I understand the whole lack of $$$ thing, especially with SFO already the monster that it is... its just - by all common sense (ok, just land area and weather reasons:-P) OAK is a better international hub choice than SFO with enough land for twin 10k runways (hell, I think you could even expand the current runway to 12k if you wanted)... Especially considering SFO's poor layout (runway wise, I love SFO's terminals)...
 
nkops
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:36 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 8):
NK briefly served OAK from DTW. Maybe they'll come back

In one word.... NEVER!!
:evil:
 
wedgetail737
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:31 am

NKOps...I guessed it as much. I figured they go for SFO over OAK.
 
modesto2
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:22 am

B6 could really use some extra gates at OAK. In the evening, B6 uses an additional gate (I think 8) on the other side of the terminal to accomodate red-eyes to IAD, JFK and BOS. With the addition of FLL, it's only a matter of time before B6 continues an OAK expansion. With LGB so slot-restricted, I hope B6 turns to OAK as the major west coast operation.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:23 pm

Realistically, I think B6 will open the OAK-EWR route this year with one or two flights daily.

If AQ can't get their bankruptcy issues straight, that may end up being another OAK casualty. If that were to occur, maybe HA will start service to OAK (like that'll happen).
 
oakjam
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:10 pm

Hello all:

Wow much more progress at OAK, jetways coming in already. Looks like the T2 extension will be done sooner that scheduled. I hope we get new service to other cities with some extra gate space being able to floated around. I would like US to add a route to PHL or CLT, but WN already has service non-stop to PHL. I would like to see Aviacsa and Aeromexico possibly start serving OAK, MX has 1 codeshare they operate for AM once daily on the flight OAK-GDL, I would like to see OAK-MTY start up. As for domestic routes I would love to have CO or B6 to EWR, MCO. I'd like to see B6 to Chicago, and SEA, SAN. I'd like to see other airlines compete with WN to SAN, maybe the new US. Of course I hope that Oasis HK airlines starts up, and I wish that a Low cost European carrier could start here, something like Thomsonfly. If OAK had a non-stop to Asia and Europe, that would put a tiny scare into SFO officials.
 
khushdesi
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:17 pm

excuse me if these questions are foolish- i know that 744s can land at oak, since united brings them in for maintenance and such. but is the runway long enough to handle a fully loaded one? and what gates are equipped for larger aircraft?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 6):
Is it certain that WN will give up all its gates at Terminal 1? Right now, they're running 133 weekday flights out of 11 gates -- that's over 12 turns per gate per day. I'd imagine they'd like to increase the number of gates they have in order to increase service, since they are most likely constrained now by gate availability.

True. I am under the impression B6 is gate constrained at OAK. Does anyone know how many operations/day B6 does there?

I would think WN would desire to keep as many gates as possible. Trading four gates for five makes no sense. While I would like to see B6 expand...

Quoting EridanMan (Reply 1):
In all seriousness though - I would imagine it would make a certain rather large amount of sense for jetBlue to Seriously expand their Bay operations seeing as the airline that is, conceptually at least, their number one competitor (Virgin America, as in huge startup funds, low fares, high service, appeal to yuppies type airlines) is still a year or so off... They currently have a chance to put a stranglehold on VA's home market a year before the upstart even boards its first flight- why not use it?

Question, could B6 get gates at SFO? Before you flame me, let me state my logic:
1. Brackets all three bay area airports from JFK
2. Possible easier access to gates than OAK, SJC
3. Puts a crimp on VA before they launch (to JFK, EWR?, IAD, FLL, BUR?, and maybe other destinations)

Yes, I realize this really fragments the B6 operations in the bay area. But as I understand it, OAK and SJC really are tough airports to get gate access. Thoughts?

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
johnboy
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:08 pm

IMHO, the beauty of adding the extra gates to Terminal 2 is placing all of WN's flights in close proximity to one another.

I travel to PHX and LAS via WN a fair amount for leisure, and I can tell you that I have not departed out of Terminal 2 for at least a couple of years. Many of the SLC flights also seem to depart out of Terminal 1.

If it's necessary to stop @ the WN ticket counter, then you've got one helluva hike over the Terminal 1 to catch those flights too.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:15 am

EridanMan:

I think they took out the southern-most gate, if they took out any gates at all. But I assure you they didn't take out two gates.

Oakjam:

The only Mexican carrier that has applied for any OAK-Mexican routes is AM for OAK-Morelia. I think it would very cool to see AM here since OAK would be their first SF Bay Area city. When Taesa flew that route with a 737-300, it was always full.

The people at Oasis Hong Kong Airlines seemed pretty confident about starting up later this year and flying to OAK by year's end. I think it would great to see 744 service at OAK. During the late the 1980's to early 1990's, there was talk of Korean Air flying to OAK, but of course they went to SFO.

Khushdesi:

Gate 1 is capable of handling a 747. Martinair and Corsair used it while they were flying to OAK. During the old days, gates 6, 8, 11 and 15 (before they added all those other gates) handled widebodies for the likes of World Airways (DC-10's), People Express (747's) and Martinair (DC-10s). I once visited OAK when there were two WO DC-10's, a Martinair DC-10 and a People Express 747, amongst the others. That terminal was packed.
 
oakjam
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:53 pm

Hello Wedgetail737:

I'm glad to see AM applied for OAK-MLM that will be a full flight, i'm glad the silver bird beauty will fly into OAK. I know AM hasn't applied for any other cities from OAK, MLM was the only one. But since MX is not tied with CINTRA anymore and MX and AM will operate as separate entities AM will try to recover lost ground that MX has taken. OAK to MLM was a start, I hope they add a future flight to GDL or MEX. The old Taesa flight to MLM(Morelia) from OAK was crowded. AM has already established service in So Cal from ONT to MLM and BJX (in addition to the GDL and MEX) service that they have. I do have to say that AM is the quality airline of Mexico, Mexicana plays second hand. I've flown both, AM is my fav.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:14 pm

I could see ZE beating AM to the OAK-MLM service unless they are pretty strapped for aircraft right now. I wonder if ZE is using the 737-700's to OAK. There was a picture sometime ago that showed people disembarking a ZE aircraft. It looked more like a 737-300...the shorter wing and the engines further away from the fuselage than on a -700.

Despite the fact that OAK lacks international service to Europe and Asia for the time being, I'm glad to see ZE and MX providing consistent international service...instead of the typical vacation charters, thanks to previous Mexican operators like Taesa and Allegro. I remember Suntrips using Aerocancun MD-80's and Leisure Air A320's before the Ryan International 757-200's.

I'm looking forward to seeing Oasis Hong Kong Airlines' 747-400's at OAK, if and when it pans out.
 
jetblueatjfk
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:33 am

Well B6 operates of out Gate 9 and 9A at Oak and they have about 4X to JFK (More on peak times), 2X BOS, 2X IAD, 6X LGB, 1X FLL (Starts Jan 19th). But in the summer they have 6X JFK, 3X BOS, 3X IAD, Surprisingly summer 06 they are going down to 5X LGB so I guess along with their new slots they are getting rid of one OAK so they can have more flights, and still 1X FLL as of now but that can most likely change. So about now the have 15 Flights a day and in the summer so far they will have 18 flights a day but I am sure you will see some EWR flights. But besides that they have two gates who can get out 9 flights a day on one gate and they only have on average 15. But in the summer they should be at about max which is where one other gate can come in. They could do 2X EWR for starters and then add more and more cities. Maybe OAK-MCO and OAK-LAS, OAK-DEN, OAK-SLC, OAK-PDX, OAK-SEA and other cities.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 
 
wedgetail737
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RE: OAK After T2 Expansion Opens?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:09 am

If B6 was able to obtain a third gate for the mornings, I think we could see a significant increase in service. After about 3:30pm-4pm, there are plenty of gates available at OAK. But the late afternoon to evening is bad for east/west flying.

We'll just have to see what happens.