kaitak744
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Alitalia 747-400

Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:51 pm

I came across this while going through Boeing's picture archive. Does anyone know exactly when Alitalia placed this order and why Alitalia cancelled the order?

http://boeingmedia.com/imageDetail.c...&BuId=0&caid=3&prid=0&sc=lrg&pn=29
 
alcregular
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:53 pm

No, but probably because they can't afford them. But I do know the aircrafts went to Virgin Atlantic Airways in 2001.
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:00 pm

Quoting Alcregular (Reply 1):
But I do know the aircrafts went to Virgin Atlantic Airways in 2001

That is correct, IIRC, AZ switched to 6 x 772ERs in a package with options and Purchase Rights for up to a total of 18 frames, including 6 773ERs. That said, only the 6 772ERs were "firm". Unfortunately their financial situation has inhibited their ability to expand on the original 777 order.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:01 pm

Quoting Alcregular (Reply 1):
No, but probably because they can't afford them. But I do know the aircrafts went to Virgin Atlantic Airways in 2001

No. Not at all.

The 744 were ordered during the period of partnership with KLM. Therefore creating synergy among their fleets as well as a/c that could operate routes where capacity was neecded (assuming pax would funnel through MXP/FCO for certain routes vs. flying through AMS).

After the break-up, AZ switched their 5 744 order to 6 772ERs. The 772 is more suited to AZ's international flights given lower capacity. AZ has limited routes which could at the time accommodate a 744 (NRT + JFK/MIA seasonally). Therefore, the 772 made sense from a capacity/cost perspective.

There has been a previous discussion on AZ's international load-factors, but from what I hear the JFK/NRT/GRU/EZE flights all operate at pretty high load factors. AZ took this into consideration when they placed their 777 order with Boeing allowing them to convert their options into 773ER a/c. To date AZ has yet to do so, but I would love seeing a 773ER in their colors...

Hope that helps.
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kiwiandrew

RE: Alitalia 747-400

Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:02 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
why Alitalia cancelled the order?

AZ swapped order to 777s which better suited AZs network - then the 744s went to VS as per Alcregular
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:02 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 2):
That said, only the 6 772ERs were "firm". Unfortunately their financial situation has inhibited their ability to expand on the original 777 order.

Only 6 were firmed directly through Boeing. AZ took an additional 4 a/c via GECAS.

Look for additional 777s to join the AZ fleet over the next two years.
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:14 am

Alitalia744, if the five Boeing 747-400s had on order never went to Virgin Atlantic, how comes VS operates five 747-443s? Last I knew 43 was the Boeing customer code for AZ and not VS (which is 1R for those who might be interested)

From Jethro's UK & Ireland Airline Fleet Listings

G-VROS Boeing 747-443 30885/1268 22 Mar 01 English Rose
G-VGAL Boeing 747-443 32337/1272 26 Apr 01 Jersey Girl
G-VLIP Boeing 747-443 32338/1274 15 May 01 Hot Lip
G-VROM Boeing 747-443 32339/1275 29 May 01 Barbarella
G-VROY Boeing 747-443 32340/1277 18 Jun 01 Pretty Woman
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jetset7e7
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 6):
Alitalia744, if the five Boeing 747-400s had on order never went to Virgin Atlantic, how comes VS operates five 747-443s? Last I knew 43 was the Boeing customer code for AZ and not VS (which is 1R for those who might be interested)

I don't really know much about this, but I think it might of been that VS wanted more 744's, and Boeing had already started buildling 5 for AZ, when they pulled out, VS came along, thank you very much.

Mark
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kiwiandrew

RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 6):
Alitalia744, if the five Boeing 747-400s had on order never went to Virgin Atlantic, how comes VS operates five 747-443s? Last I knew 43 was the Boeing customer code for AZ and not VS (which is 1R for those who might be interested)

Hi FlyCaledonian

I think when Alitalia744 said "No. Not at all." he was responding to the first half of Alcregular's comment

Quoting Alcregular (Reply 1):
No, but probably because they can't afford them. But I do know the aircrafts went to Virgin Atlantic Airways in 2001.

ie , I dont think that he was disagreeing about the a/c going to VS - but rather about AZ not being able to afford them being the reason for non-delivery to AZ
 
797
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:56 am

I got all excited wen saw the picture  Sad
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:12 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 6):
Alitalia744, if the five Boeing 747-400s had on order never went to Virgin Atlantic, how comes VS operates five 747-443s? Last I knew 43 was the Boeing customer code for AZ and not VS (which is 1R for those who might be interested)

Fly - my comment was in regard to the statement about Alitalia not being able to afford them portion. They obviously could afford the a/c as they ended up buying 6 directly from Boeing.

Please don't educate me on Alitalia's Boeing customer code. Nowhere in my posts did I say the a/c were not built, nor did I deny that they were delivered to Virgin Atlantic. There was a press release regarding this directly on Boeing's website some time ago. In fact, the 747-443s were delivered with AZ seating (albeit in different colors) to VS.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 8):
I think when Alitalia744 said "No. Not at all." he was responding to the first half of Alcregular's comment

Thanks dude!
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wingedarrow
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 3):
The 744 were ordered during the period of partnership with KLM.

That has been one of the worst periods ever in Alitalia's history. In any case, even if getting some 747-400s would have helped, I think we're happier now with the 777s. Anyway, I'd rather prefere to see Alitalia going all Airbus:

- 20xA340 for North/South America, Asia and Australia;
- 10xA330 for Africa and the Middle East;
- all the Airbus we already have for domestic/european network and those needed to replace the MD80s, the ERJ145s, ERJ170s and the ATRs.

...and FCO as the only airline's hub!!!
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Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Wingedarrow (Reply 11):
That has been one of the worst periods ever in Alitalia's history. In any case, even if getting some 747-400s would have helped, I think we're happier now with the 777s. Anyway, I'd rather prefere to see Alitalia going all Airbus:

- 20xA340 for North/South America, Asia and Australia;
- 10xA330 for Africa and the Middle East;
- all the Airbus we already have for domestic/european network and those needed to replace the MD80s, the ERJ145s, ERJ170s and the ATRs.

...and FCO as the only airline's hub!!!

I'll have to disagree with you here. I think the ideal fleet is one which AZ is on the path to create:

- Boeing Long-haul centered on 777/767 (future inclusion of 787 as we know AZ wants it)
- Airbus Short/Medium-haul fleet centered on A32X series.
- Short/regional fleet centered on Embraer series jets - ERJ145/EMB170 (as well as adding EMB190s).

AZ has always preferred Boeing widebodies, I think this trend will continue. From what I hear, the 777 is doing marvelous for them...

As for FCO, well I like that idea, but there's a lot of money had in Milan...
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EddieDude
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 5):
Look for additional 777s to join the AZ fleet over the next two years.

Gus, do you think we can expect AZ to start a MXP-MEX flight once more 777's join the fleet?
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
rst033
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:26 am

I still believe Alitalia will also order the 748. I don�t think they are at all happy with the MD-11�s even as just freighters.

Alitalia744 I could be wrong but in my guessitmation AZ could have 748 service to JFK, LAX, YYZ, and some South American destinations including freighters.

Because of politics they will probably replace 72 MD-82�s with either A320/1 even though they would probably want the 737-800/900
 
cancidas
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:37 am

all that said, i would love to see an AZ 744 on approach into JFK... right behind KL!!
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Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:07 am

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 15):
all that said, i would love to see an AZ 744 on approach into JFK...

I think a lot of us would. IMHO, AZ's livery dressed the 747 the best!


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FlyMeToTheMoon
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:13 am

Great looking livery on the 747-400. Unfortunately Alitalia's eyes are always bigger than their stomachs - did it with the 747 and now the 777 since they are bleeding money all over the place.
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EZYAirbus
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:44 am



Love this livery on this plane!

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skgsjulax
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:49 am

When are we going to see the beautiful Alitalia colors at LAX again? LA would be much more fun with non-stop service to Italy  Cool
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ikramerica
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:12 pm

We don't have enough Italians in LAX though, nor the demand for people here to go to Italy. With all the connection options to get to Italy, just can't see it working with anything but a 788, but not even sure why you'd do it with the 788.
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797
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:05 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 12):
I'll have to disagree with you here. I think the ideal fleet is one which AZ is on the path to create:

- Boeing Long-haul centered on 777/767 (future inclusion of 787 as we know AZ wants it)
- Airbus Short/Medium-haul fleet centered on A32X series.
- Short/regional fleet centered on Embraer series jets - ERJ145/EMB170 (as well as adding EMB190s).

AZ has always preferred Boeing widebodies, I think this trend will continue. From what I hear, the 777 is doing marvelous for them...

As for FCO, well I like that idea, but there's a lot of money had in Milan...

Totally agree with you Alitalia744, Alitalia is having a great time with their 777s. Replacing all 777s and 767s would be a crime, they already have the experience to manage Boeing aircraft for long haul services. Furthermore, the 787 would come great to replace some of the old 767s and to add to their long-haul fleet. I'm not pretty sure about AZ getting the 748. I don't know if they wan to get in the high capacity market when they can manage shorter pax loads with more efficient aircrafts such as the 787. I'd love to see it though!

All the Airbus fleet is perfect in AZ. I think that they should replace all MD-80s with some new Airbus airplanes, such as A318s or A319s.

The ERJs are great. They are packed on each flight and are practical. I had the oportunity to fly the ERJ145 and it was a heck of a trip! I'd love to do it again!

I guess AZ has to worry a bit more in balancing their situation and then about renewing the fleet. I love AZ to see them go down.

Quoting Rst033 (Reply 14):
Because of politics they will probably replace 72 MD-82�s with either A320/1 even though they would probably want the 737-800/900

Agreed.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 16):
AZ's livery dressed the 747 the best!

Oh tell me about it! Best Livery on a 747 so far! Hope to see some 748s in the future wearing that livery!

Cheers! Forza Alitalia!
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:38 pm

Quoting 797 (Reply 21):
Furthermore, the 787 would come great to replace some of the old 767s and to add to their long-haul fleet.

It will in due time  Wink

Quoting 797 (Reply 21):
All the Airbus fleet is perfect in AZ. I think that they should replace all MD-80s with some new Airbus airplanes, such as A318s or A319s.

I'm no Airbus fan, but it makes sense financially and operationally. Although part me always thought a 738 would look HOT in AZ's colors.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
skgsjulax
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:17 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
We don't have enough Italians in LAX though, nor the demand for people here to go to Italy

But they operated 747s and MD-11s from the mid-80's through 2001 (I believe). With ER capability on smaller aircraft now is there a chance of restarting the service?  goodvibes 
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wingedarrow
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:34 pm

Quoting EZYAirbus (Reply 18):
Love this livery on this plane! Glenn

Though nice it could appear, on the picture shown by EZYAirbus taken from Boeing's site there's an evident mistake in Alitalia's paint scheme!!! Just a trained eye could notice it... Anyway, the first of you that will reveal the secret will be awarded of a grateful Italian BRAVISSIMO!!! (Compare the Boeing's drawing the a.net pictures above)
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jush
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:38 pm

I usually say i dislike the Alitaly livery but on the 747 it is just marvellous.

Regds
jush
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Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:53 pm

Quoting Wingedarrow (Reply 24):
Though nice it could appear, on the picture shown by EZYAirbus taken from Boeing's site there's an evident mistake in Alitalia's paint scheme!!! Just a trained eye could notice it... Anyway, the first of you that will reveal the secret will be awarded of a grateful Italian BRAVISSIMO!!! (Compare the Boeing's drawing the a.net pictures above)

Well let's see:

1) Boeing 747 titles not where they should be
2) No black nose
3) Mini "Alitalia" behind first door in gold. It was originally behind every door, however, toward early 2000 was removed from the a/c
4) Head of cheatline (Green toward nose) doesn't taperin the way actual a/c do
5) Alitalia got rid of the euro flags.

How's taht?
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jush
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 26):
Well let's see:

1) Boeing 747 titles not where they should be
2) No black nose
3) Mini "Alitalia" behind first door in gold. It was originally behind every door, however, toward early 2000 was removed from the a/c
4) Head of cheatline (Green toward nose) doesn't taperin the way actual a/c do
5) Alitalia got rid of the euro flags.

How's taht?

How's that? Impressive information you have on hand. But i tell you what i didn't expect less from you with this username  Wink

Regds
jush
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting Jush (Reply 27):
How's that? Impressive information you have on hand. But i tell you what i didn't expect less from you with this username

haha, thanks! There's one other semi-error I see with the image...

anyone know what it is?
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
ba757
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 28):
anyone know what it is?

The red 'team' logo? I haven't seen that in awhile.

Also, its missing Alitalia off the engines.
Add to that, no Skyteam logo!


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[Edited 2006-01-04 16:53:44]

[Edited 2006-01-04 16:55:26]
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting BA757 (Reply 29):
The red 'team' logo? I haven't seen that in awhile.

Also, its missing Alitalia off the engines.
Add to that, no Skyteam logo!

yep both of them. one other issue tho...
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kaitak744
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting BA757 (Reply 29):
Add to that, no Skyteam logo!

When they ordered the 744s, I don't think they were part of Skyteam right?
 
wingedarrow
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 26):
How's taht?

Alitalia744, you're simply fantastic! I think Alitalia should start thinking seriously about you joining the management ad honorem!!! Let's keep Alitalia high, hope that for 2007 (when the "Freccia Alata" will turn 60) things will get better. Many congrats bro Big grin
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N1120A
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
We don't have enough Italians in LAX though, nor the demand for people here to go to Italy.

Actually, loads had nothing to do with it. The LAX flights went out full. It was a yield issue
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Airdolomiti
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:59 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 30):
yep both of them. one other issue tho...

Back then AZ ordered 744s with GE engines, but those in the picture look like PWs to me. Is that it? Big grin

Federico
 
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Richard28
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:03 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
Actually, loads had nothing to do with it. The LAX flights went out full. It was a yield issue

But were these O&D, or connecting pax attracted by the low yields?
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting Airdolomiti (Reply 34):
Back then AZ ordered 744s with GE engines, but those in the picture look like PWs to me. Is that it?

Federico

Bravo! That was the last thing I saw that was wrong with that picture!!!

Quoting Wingedarrow (Reply 32):
Alitalia744, you're simply fantastic! I think Alitalia should start thinking seriously about you joining the management ad honorem!!! Let's keep Alitalia high, hope that for 2007 (when the "Freccia Alata" will turn 60) things will get better. Many congrats bro

Speriamo! No? Was talking with a bud (NYCFly75) last night about the glorious days of AZ. What we all wouldn't do to get Alitalia back to being the Alitalia it used to be. Like I always said, there's a sense of pride I get everytime I see the Tricolore "A" moving around JFK.

In addition to significant labor changes (read: UNIONS), Alitalia needs to refocus on their long-standing position - the wings of Italy. Italy is renowned worldwide for style and culture. Alitalia needs to bring some of that back. Elevate Magnifica's service standards and seating to make it a truley competitive world-class business class product and advertise the shit out of it. Improve coach standards - get new seats or at least increase pitch, add PTVs to the 763s and give better meal options. The bar at the back of the cabin is nice.

Refocus the staff on providing superior customer experiences rather than run of the mill or sometimes below par service. I know the boys and girls in the cabin on AZ have the biggest attitudes in the sky, and rightfully so, all of us Italians do Wink but they need to refocus that energy to create an atmosphere people seek to experience.

Additionally, they could focus on increasing both O&D (through specially priced packages vis-a-vis ItaliaTour if they still own it) as well as connecting traffic. People flock to BA/LH/AF etc to fly half-way around the world through their respective hubs. Flying via London shouldn't be any easier than going through FCO or MXP if AZ focuses on making connections more easily timed and advertises such services.

And to answer your comment WingedArrow - I would take a job with Alitalia in a heartbeat Smile
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wingedarrow
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RE: Alitalia 747-400

Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:41 pm

I'd be glad to see you directing our company! But I'd be honored even to work side by side with such a talented and experienced individual. I really wish you all the best!!!

P.S.: Why don't you apply for a position with us?
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