FLY777UAL
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United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:54 pm

The battle has begun.
United Airlines today will begin blanketing Denver with an advertising campaign aimed directly at its newest competitor, Southwest Airlines.

The first phase of United's campaign includes print ads pointing out Southwest's limited nonstop service out of Denver International Airport.

Southwest today starts flying 13 daily flights to three cities, and it is expected to announce service this morning to two more. United, the dominant carrier at DIA, has 400 daily departures from Denver to dozens of cities through its mainline, Ted and United Express service.


link: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm.../0,2777,DRMN_23916_4358425,00.html

Funny ad to be honest...

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
UAL777UK
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:33 pm

The gloves are on...ding ding...round one...let the fight begin....my monies on UA!  twocents 
 
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antoniemey
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:06 pm

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 1):
my monies on UA!

Mine is on Frontier.  Smile
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
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fxramper
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:10 pm

Although a competitor, F9 outta DEN is laughable...who was on the inaugural of WN to DEN?

Tell us how it went!!!  Smile
 
moparman
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:11 pm

For the life of me: Southwest is laughable. Which other airline has a television show highlighting their total incompetance? Although United isn't my favorite carrier - I would rather take Greyhound than fly with Southwest.
"Harming a patient is unethical, but I can inflict as much pain as I like" Dr. Phlox
 
txagkuwait
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:21 pm

>> I would rather take Greyhound than fly with Southwest.<<

And I would not be a bit surprised if the folks at Southwest Airlines Co would prefer that you take Greyhound as well.

On the subject of WN in Denver, the real shot fired is the announcement of service to Salt Lake City.

Right now Frontier's walk up fare across there is $249.

It is 391 miles. Roughly 1:25 mins. Southwest will price their walk up fare at $119 or so.

One place nobody has ever been able to compete effectively with Southwest has been in the 1 to 2 hr business type flights. Dallas to Houston. L.A. to Oakland. Phoenix to Las Vegas.

Look at market share dominance by WN in markets of that type.

Slashing the going rate between DEN and SLC by half will wake up the market...instead of 780 psgrs per day it may very well grow to 2000 psgrs per day.

And contrary to popular misconception, many, many businessmen will opt to fly Southwest---and that is especially true on short hops like that. Business travelers want frequency, they want on-time, and the FF program where a handful of DEN-SLC round trips gets you a free ticket anyplace WN goes is a decent deal.

But go ahead and underestimate Southwest in Denver. Other airlines have done so over the years, generally at their own peril.
 
A2
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:33 pm

I must say it is one of the funniest ad I've seen in a long, long, long time.

Good job UA
 
stlgph
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:55 pm

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 5):
Slashing the going rate between DEN and SLC by half will wake up the market...instead of 780 psgrs per day it may very well grow to 2000 psgrs per day.

159%? come on now.

Quoting FLY777UAL (Thread starter):
Funny ad to be honest...

That is a great advertisement. Absolutely great.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
apodino
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:02 pm

Quoting Moparman (Reply 7):
TxAgKuwait:

"And I would not be a bit surprised if the folks at Southwest Airlines Co would prefer that you take Greyhound as well."

Considering what I spend on travel, as I fly between 70000 - 90000 miles per year, and the vast majority of it for pleasure rather than business; much of it in business or 1st class. Considering that I have been either a Gold or Platinum Elite on Continental for the past 5 years, a cheezy airline like Southwest would do well to get passengers like myself to come and fly with them. Personally I refuse to spend my money with them. With the above in mind, I think your statement is inapproprate. There are some people who will still spend a little more for quality, instead of with the lowest common denominator of air travel.

Why should I when you can get better service on every other airline flying; or Greyhound for that matter?

I am obviously not a big Southwest cheerleader. That being said, service on WN is about as good as most legacy carriers. They don't block the aisle with beverage carts, and they don't charge for their snack boxes on longer flights, which I cannot say about some legacy carriers. They also have all leather seats in their planes. They do things differently than most other airlines, there is no question about that. They have an on time record comporable to anyone else. They are pretty high in the customer satisfaction department from what I understand, and they have very high employee morale. Not to mention they have the strictest pilot hiring requirements in Industry (you have to have a 737 type rating before you get hired for example.) Yes they do a lot of goofy things that most other companies wouldn't do, but coloring outside the lines is not necessarily a bad thing.

And your comment on Airline showing how incompetent they are. 95 percent of all the scenes on that show are idiotic passengers more than the incompetent airline. I mean, things like being in a bar drinking while boarding your flight, and you don't respond to announcements, then when they give up your seat, you get mad when you should have been at the gate on the plane in the first place. And some nut leaving security on a 30 minute layover to smoke, then naturally got held up in the tsa line coming back and missing his flight. Can you blame any airline for this? No.
 
moparman
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:14 pm

Apodino,

I am not saying anything negative about the qualifactions of Southwest Airlines flight crews. Also, I am certainly not defending stupid and "idiotic" passengers. When I travel, I make it a point to be at the airport 2 hours before departure - just in case. Most of the time, I end up sitting around... sometime I end up in the airport bar; but I always make sure I'm at the gate in plenty of time. Do I blame Southwest for the passengers? No. Do I believe that they attract a, well, more idiotic crowd? yes - through their generally lower prices. Be that as it may.

What I have said is entirely personal opinion. I vote with my wallet, and I will not support Southwest Airlines. Any airline that oversells on occasion; Southwest seems to do it every flight. I travel through Sacramento regularly (normally on CO or DL), and I hear Southwest's announcements... I cannot remember a single time I was there that they did not make overbooking announcements. That is a sign of total incompetence in my view.

While I argree with you about thinking outside of the box; sometimes staying inside the box is a good thing as well. My view of Southwest is that they are the lowest denomination in air travel today.
"Harming a patient is unethical, but I can inflict as much pain as I like" Dr. Phlox
 
CO7e7
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:36 pm

I agree, the add is funny but I don't see how it's going to affect either airline. Some people don't care about service and what not, they just want to fly from one place to another by purchasing THE cheapest ticket they could find. Whether it's AA, DL, WN, UA or CO.. they just don't care!
You guys keep forgetting one thing (and I wrote this in another thread today): We as a.netters have our preferences when it comes to flying. We care about the aircraft, the manufacturer, the service, the airline... Etc.... Having said all that, you have to keep in mind that other people do really care.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:26 pm

First rule of advertisement, you avoid mentioning your competitor as much as possible, as even mentioning your competitor, you are giving it attention.....

United should focus on its strengths, focusing on the supposed weakness of Southwest, is just childish.
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justapassenger
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:29 pm

I am not aware of all of Frontier’s PR efforts to counter WN’s entry into the Denver market, but at 5:45 CST today I did hear the CEO of Frontier being interviewed on CNBC about Southwest starting service at Denver today. I was not impressed.

He said that they had been expecting Southwest to enter Denver and fill the geographic hole in WN’s service map and that he expected WN to expand their service at DIA.

All he said as far as Frontier’s response to WN’s entry into the Denver market was that Frontier was talking to its passengers and responding to their needs and desires. It seemed like a really weak response. Why didn’t he say something much more positive to promote Frontier? Why didn’t he say: 1) We have a superior product, 2) We are prepared to counter WN’s new service, 3) There’s room for both of us on those routes. Why didn’t he give us more hope that they could deal with WN’s new service?

I certainly hope that F-9 has a more effective PR program going on somewhere else.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:30 pm

Let's see...United spends thousands of dollars on advertising, Southwest's new service gets a ton of free publicity.

Now who's laughing?
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
Bicoastal
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:40 pm

I still think Frontier has more to lose with Southwest coming to Denver. As United well knows, it has a large national and international network and a competitive products for the business and leisure traveler with which to keep and grow its customer base. Frontier, well, uh, it has pretty planes, but competes mostly in the same demographic as does Southwest.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
UAL777UK
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:37 pm

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 17):
I still think Frontier has more to lose with Southwest coming to Denver. As United well knows, it has a large national and international network and a competitive products for the business and leisure traveler with which to keep and grow its customer base. Frontier, well, uh, it has pretty planes, but competes mostly in the same demographic as does Southwest.

Without a shadow of doubt, Frontier is going to get slaughterd here if it does not get its act together and fight the fight. No way will UA allow WN to simply walk over them at DEN, this is a major hub, with major feed, O&D, so I think they will do fine on competing routes.
 
BCALdavid
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:54 pm

Well done TxAgKuwait, I agree with you whole heartedly! I fly between the UK and the US, around europe plus domestic US service frequently, usually in business class. I don't consider myself a cut above the rest but I certainly do not consider myself "the lowest common denominator" for preferring to choose Southwest over legacy carriers for domestic US service. They have proved to be as good as legacy carriers in my opinion. They don't compare well to good european carriers within europe however, and neither do easyJet and Ryanair, our "Southwest euro-style" carriers, who I choose not to fly with!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:06 pm

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 5):
Slashing the going rate between DEN and SLC by half will wake up the market...instead of 780 psgrs per day it may very well grow to 2000 psgrs per day.

For this to be true, you have to assume there are 2,000 passengers who will fly that route each day. SLC-DEN-SLC isn't the California Corridor and UA, F9 and DL aren't going to sit on their hands.
 
Tornado82
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:07 pm

Quoting Apodino (Reply 9):
They have an on time record comporable to anyone else.

And they better... because when they blow your connection you're in alot worse shape than if any legacy with a boatload of interline agreements blows your connection. Not to mention compared to Continental who'll bend over backwards and do cartwheels for blown connections... even if it's the fault of bad wx.
 
SBN580
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting FLY777UAL (Thread starter):
The first phase of United's campaign includes print ads pointing out Southwest's limited nonstop service out of Denver International Airport.

It's a good ad, but I think United is showing quantity over quality, when quality should be just as important.

Quoting Moparman (Reply 4):
For the life of me: Southwest is laughable. Which other airline has a television show highlighting their total incompetance? Although United isn't my favorite carrier - I would rather take Greyhound than fly with Southwest.

To be fair to WN, the show highlights employee dilemmas set up by ignoramous passengers more than anything else. There are those for any airline. I recall reading that Southwest was the only airline to volunteer for the show. A risky PR move, but all in all it's free advertising. And it's employees are shown solving problems no matter how wacky, so the PR is usually to their advantage. As for Southwest and Greyhound, well Southwest could well be called "Air Greyhound."

Quoting FLY777UAL (Thread starter):
Not to mention they have the strictest pilot hiring requirements in Industry (you have to have a 737 type rating before you get hired for example.)

Kind of makes sense since that is the only type they fly.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 13):
Some people don't care about service and what not, they just want to fly from one place to another by purchasing THE cheapest ticket they could find.

Such is the state of our society in general. Low price over quality and wanting everything for nothing.
North Central: Good People Made Their Airline Great! FLY MD-90 POWER! Keep 'em Flying DELTA Family!
 
iluv2pilot
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:27 pm

Boy all you WN bashers are right on the mark!!!

Let's face it, WN is hurting badly and just got out of bankruptcy court. They are putting planes in the desert, laying off employees, and shrinking their payroll to stay alive.

DUh!!!!!! That's UA not WN.....

You don't have to like their product, their advertising, or their service, but to call them laughable is ignorant and shows a lack of understanding of how well they perform and why.

I'm Platinum on Delta and CO and elite on Air Tran and I avoid WN when possible, but when I have to I do and generally find it ok.

From a business perspective their doing fine and their smart and they will hurt UA in DEN.

The ad is funny but it was stupid to mention WN as now folks who weren't aware their flying there will.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting Moparman (Reply 4):
For the life of me: Southwest is laughable. Which other airline has a television show highlighting their total incompetance? Although United isn't my favorite carrier - I would rather take Greyhound than fly with Southwest.

To be much more accurate, the show points out the complete idiocy of the passengers ('Why CAN'T my poodle have its own seat???') than of the airline.

Southwest Airlines has bright people and makes a profit; United Airlines has...well...777s.

Chris in NH
 
txagkuwait
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:55 pm

>>For this to be true, you have to assume there are 2,000 passengers who will fly that route each day. SLC-DEN-SLC isn't the California Corridor and UA, F9 and DL aren't going to sit on their hands.<<

Well, there are close to 2000 psgrs a day right now flying the 600 or so miles between Denver and Phoenix at an average fare basically the same as the 780 psgrs flying each day between Denver and Salt Lake despite the latter only being 390 miles.

And I am well aware that SLC-DEN is not the California corridor. Between the LA area and the Bay area you are talking close to 18,000 passengers a day. I would never suggest that SLC-DEN would do that kind of volume.

And no, I do not for an instant think that the other airlines will sit on their hands. They will cut their price and market aggressively. The problem is, they will cut their prices and sit there and bleed and then start to wonder if chasing short haul is really worth their trouble.

You need only look at history to see countless instances of UA doing this in California....back before Southwest inherited PSA's position in the marketplace. Braniff and American have played this game in Texas a few times. USAirways learned some harsh lessons in and out of BWI.

Short haul is what separates the men from the boys in the airline industry. You can sit there and say that United et al have lowered their CASMs thru the bankruptcy courts, but you still have to look at their average stage length.

If UA is reporting a CASM of 10.0 ...... you can figure that's on a healthy stage length which includes all those nonstops to foreign countries -- Japan, Germany, etc etc. Those long hauls are pretty cheap flying. What's expensive, on a per mile basis, for the legacy carriers are the short hauls.

So that trip in between SLC and DEN at 390 miles probably doesn't give UA a CASM of a dime. It's probably 14 or 15 cents.

You are not going to enjoy competing against WN over the long term for short haul passengers when you are getting a 12 cent yield. Sooner or later somebody is going to blink. History suggests it won't be WN.

But, 7e7, when you state that UA, F9, DL etc etc will not sit on their hands and watch this happen, you are right. Their fare cuts and marketing efforts will do nothing except expand the market. They'll expand it right up close to that 2000 number I mentioned. Bank on it.
 
Tbird
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:10 am

Its a funny ad but I'd fly Southwest over UAL. Its just amazing how many people keep bashing Southwest over and over again. One has to wonder if success breeds jealously? I love reading everything Southwest does wrong, from not bending over backwards to help customers, to overbooking there flights, to not having enough connecting time. Here's a newsflash all airlines overbook, all of the legacy carriers have very tight connection times (AA's min is 20 mins), and you want to talk about customer service? WN's customer service is ranked higher then all of the legacy carriers.

With all that Southwest does wrong they seem to be making a ton of money. Enough money to buy new planes, build new terminals, invest in other airlines (ATA), increase frequency over and over again, add cities in the legacy carriers backyard, and stay out of Chap 11. I like to be on a winning team and it sure sounds like Southwest is that winning team.
 
ikramerica
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting Justapassenger (Reply 12):
1) We have a superior product, 2) We are prepared to counter WN’s new service, 3) There’s room for both of us on those routes.

I think he said 3 just by his "expectations," that 1 is already obvious to their customers, and 2 would be suicide.

Quoting SBN580 (Reply 19):
To be fair to WN, the show highlights employee dilemmas set up by ignoramous passengers more than anything else.

But as others have pointed out, the airline attracts those people like flies. Anyone willing to wait in the long lines at LAX to avoid a connection elsewhere that would net the same travel times is not the star of the math team, in my opinion.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
apodino
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting Moparman (Reply 9):
My view of Southwest is that they are the lowest denomination in air travel today.

Personally, I would put NW, FL, NK, and PA on that group way before I would put WN on the list.
 
incitatus
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 5):
And I would not be a bit surprised if the folks at Southwest Airlines Co would prefer that you take Greyhound as well.

Really? The very few times I boarded Southwest I was under the impression that them and Greyhound cater exactly to the same crowd.
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777Purser
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 8):
They don't block the aisle with beverage carts, and they don't charge for their snack boxes on longer flights, which I cannot say about some legacy carriers.

As I am not informed on inflight procedures on Southwest, please explain to me how the beverage service is delivered. Also, when you say they don't charge for their snack boxes on longer flights, do you mean the offer you a complimentary meal as opposed to buy on board?
 
txagkuwait
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:36 am

Southwest's beverage service: Once the preflight safety announcements have been completed, the FAs will go thru the cabin and collect drink orders from passengers until they are told to be seated for takeoff.

Once airborne, they get up from their jumpseat and continue collecting the drink orders until they finish the cabin.

Once all drink orders have been taken, the FAs fill the drink orders in the galley and carry to the passengers on serving trays.

On some morning flights, especially of short duration, the FAs will pass thru the cabin with trays of coffee and fruit juices, taking orders from passengers desiring something different on an exception basis and bringing them their drink once the juice-n-coffee distribution is complete.

There are no inflight meals. You normally get something to munch on (peanuts, Ritz air crisps, Nabisco cookies) on flights less than 2 hrs and a snack pack (sausage stick, fruit bites, cheese-n-crackers, cookies) on flights of over 2 hrs.

The Flight Attendants are seldom stingy with the snack packs and if someone asks for seconds, they usually are glad to oblige.

Southwest is notorious for a full beverage service, weather permitting, even on the shortest of flights. Austin to Houston, 155 miles, usually blocks at 28-32 minutes of enroute time and they will do a full beverage service for 137 on that flight.

I hope that answered your question.
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:37 am

Quoting Justapassenger (Reply 12):
Why didn’t he say something much more positive to promote Frontier? Why didn’t he say: 1) We have a superior product,

If all things were equal, I believe Frontier has the better product. But when they are forced to drop their walk-up fare on DEN-SLC to match WN, then their product just went into the crapper. I can't blame the guy for taking the side of caution..

I flew home from the gulf for Christmas vacation and planned on non-revving on AA from LGW-DFW-BHM. Everything out of Gatwick to DFW was packed solid so I was forced to fly LGW-RDU, and make my way from there to BHM. Knowing that WN served both cities, but not non-stop I checked the Southwest website to check fares. Three days prior to departure I found a one-way fare on WN for $70.00 ($88.90 with taxes and fees) with a connection in BNA, which would get me to BHM 10 minutes later than my original non-rev flight from DFW-BHM. Both flights left on time, great service, leather with ample legroom (I am somewhat of an expert on legroom since I have spent the last two days cramped in an Emirates sardine can) and I arrived in BHM five minutes early, with no sign of the AA flight from Dallas in sight. And for the sake of argument I checked several other airlines from RDU-BHM and the cheapest I found was $425.00 on US Airways. And the legacies wonder why they are in trouble..

I would bet that most WN bashers have never even flown WN...
 
apodino
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:37 am

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 27):
As I am not informed on inflight procedures on Southwest, please explain to me how the beverage service is delivered. Also, when you say they don't charge for their snack boxes on longer flights, do you mean the offer you a complimentary meal as opposed to buy on board?

The way it works is they come down the aisle, take your drink order and write it on a slip of paper. They go to the galley, fill the drinks, and bring them to you on trays. This way, the beverage cart never leaves the galley in flight. Herb started this because he didn't want the cart to block the aisles where passengers needed to pass to get to and from the lavs.

And about the Snack. Southwest doesn't serve meals in flight, they actually pioneered that and most of the legacies have followed suit. However, on the longer flights, they do serve you a free snack box, appropriate to the time of day, but it usually has crackers, a nutrigrain bar, cookies, and other goodies. Which is not unlike what JetBlue serves. On United, a similar snack box is Buy on Board, and will set you back $5.00. But on Southwest, its free.
 
Tbird
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:41 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 26):
Really? The very few times I boarded Southwest I was under the impression that them and Greyhound cater exactly to the same crowd.

I'm sure the thousands of business travelers who board Southwest flights every day and the hard working families who fly Southwest everyday must love to be stereotyped as low class.

I love people who generalize like you, why did you even bother to post a reply? you offer nothing to the topic and I'd wager if I took 100 customers who fly United and 100 customers who fly Southwest and put them in a room together you couldn't pick out the UAL from WN customers without looking at a boarding pass.

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 27):
As I am not informed on in flight procedures on Southwest, please explain to me how the beverage service is delivered. Also, when you say they don't charge for their snack boxes on longer flights, do you mean the offer you a complimentary meal as opposed to buy on board?

Southwest uses drink trays to serve drinks and wicker baskets or cloth bags to hand out snacks. This way the FAs can easily move over if someone needs to pass during the in-flight service. As for the snack box, Southwest's free snack box is generally far superior to AAs buy on board snack box. I can’t speak to what UAL gives you since I don’t fly UAL very often.
 
2H4
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:52 am




Quoting Moparman (Reply 4):
Which other airline has a television show highlighting their total incompetance?



Incompetance? Which other airline has been profitable for 30 years while maintaining industry-leading customer satisfaction?

 sarcastic 




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
spartanmjf
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:12 am

The road to Chapter 11 is littered with competitors who have tried, and failed, to challenge Southwest's ability to satisfy customers and deliver a product at a competitive and profitable price level.

So where does this leave UA, given that they are already in Chapter 11?
"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
 
markabcan
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:20 am

All this Southwest bashing is absolutely ridiculous! Southwest provides a very competitive product compared to all airlines out there. Good leg room, plentiful and efficient drink service, excellent frequency, fair and consistent fares, on-time performance, that's what air travelers want and it shows in profits? Southwest provides a consistent product, this is the way to operate a business. In my experience most Southwest flights are packed with business travelers, not the so called lower denominator type people mentioned earlier! Just because a airline does not offer business class DOES not make it inferior! Success certainly does breed jealously, but its getting really hard to be jealous of half the airlines out there!
 
Manta
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RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:23 am

One question I've got that no one seemed to mention yet is:

With WN's populatiry at MDW, and now beginning service to DEN, it will just be a matter of time before WN posts a bunch of MDW-DEN flights. Do you think this will take away much from UA / TED service from MDW, or cut into the big ORD - DEN run that UA has dominated for so long?
 
777Purser
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:47 pm

RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 30):
The way it works is they come down the aisle, take your drink order and write it on a slip of paper. They go to the galley, fill the drinks, and bring them to you on trays. This way, the beverage cart never leaves the galley in flight. Herb started this because he didn't want the cart to block the aisles where passengers needed to pass to get to and from the lavs.

Wow...I must admit... Take preference, run to the galley, pour drink, run down the aisle, serve pax...my best guess would be...6 to 9 at a time (no cans would fit on tray) take preference, run to the galley....and so forth...

I cannot imagine being able to achieve this on a 757 MC config of 166 pax, full and as a bev only designated flight, likely under 2 hr. having minimum crew onboard where only 2 FA's would have to provide customers with such service. Good thing they are currently paid the highest in US industry!

How long do they take on a full 737 they fly (how many pax) and what is the number of FA's they have onboard?
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 2):
Mine is on Frontier.  Smile

where is Mariner? He usually gets into the mix on this.......that being said, I agree, I think F9 should do alright....
"Up the Irons!"
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Manta (Reply 35):
or cut into the big ORD - DEN run that UA has dominated for so long?

This is one I can see... just because ORD sucks for on-time performance. However, your typical Chicagoan-northsider has their collective head up the smelly end of their body... and thinks MDW is "that OTHER airport" or "that ghetto airport" and refuse to go there. But then again, on a flight of that kind of length, and then especially the BWI/DC Metroplex length... I'll take Frontier with the TV's, please.
 
SRT75
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:42 am

RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 36):
How long do they take on a full 737 they fly (how many pax) and what is the number of FA's they have onboard?

135 pax, 3 FAs, and they get everyone a drink on a 50 min (airtime) flight from LAX to LAS (always full on Fridays and Sundays).

Quoting Moparman (Reply 9):
Any airline that oversells on occasion; Southwest seems to do it every flight. I travel through Sacramento regularly (normally on CO or DL), and I hear Southwest's announcements... I cannot remember a single time I was there that they did not make overbooking announcements. That is a sign of total incompetence in my view.

I fly LAX-SMF quite often for business. WN is about 1/2 the price of the only other option (UA). Plus, I get a fully refundable/changeable ticket. So do most of the other pax flying this route.

That means if your meeting is done early or late, you just head to the airport and get on the waitlist. It's not an oversell situation. Just everyone trying to get home at the same time.

Also, I have to give credit to WN for its egalitarian (distractors will call it "communist") wait list procedure. First come, first serve, and the waitlist from an earlier flight rolls over to the next flight.

On UA they have a seniority wait list (permiers get ahead of general Mileage+ members). I was stuck in SFO for 6 hours once waitlisting on flight after flight to LAX. I was #15 on one flight, and 11 got on board. I thought, great, I'll be number 4 for the next flight! WRONG, I was #33 on the next flight because of the seniority wait list procedure.
 
thegreatchecko
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:34 pm

RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 18):

when they blow your connection you're in alot worse shape than if any legacy with a boatload of interline agreements blows your connection.

Other than the fact that WN won't send you on another airline, they on the otherhand will hold a connection and do it all the time. In their Ops Center they have full time Customer Service Coordinators whose only job is to protect the customer. They either hold flights (usually on the last flight of the day) or confirm seats on the next flight for people who have missed their connections. Usually the gate agent at the connecting city has everything sorted out for the missed connects by the time their flight arrives.

Only on the busiest of days and crappiest of situations do people who missed their connections end up without a seat and have to wait standby.

I have personally seen flights held a half hour for five connections in ELP.

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 36):
Wow...I must admit... Take preference, run to the galley, pour drink, run down the aisle, serve pax...my best guess would be...6 to 9 at a time (no cans would fit on tray) take preference, run to the galley....and so forth...

I think its 9 cans or cups on the tray. With three flight attendants for 137 passengers and 3 for 120ish on a -500 its not as bad as you think. They work hard, but WN has had the system down for quite a while and it works pretty well.

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
dartland
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:09 am

RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:17 am

UA is confronting WN with their ads -- they are are taking a gamble that they aren't giving any new publicity, since it sounds like WN's entrance to DEN has been well-heralded. Risky, but probably the right move given how WN is very well publicized in DEN also.

UA has a great product, and while they should be touting the difference between them and WN, the whole non-stop thing is also a big deal. Denver residents have been spoiled with non-stop service all over the country (and the world) because of the UA hub. Without UA, they wouldn't even have the beautiful new aiport and everybody knows it.

My point is that Denver residents are no strangers to UA, and the loyalty game is going to be important. UA's reminder that while WN is coming in, they can't do what UA does for you (e.g. fly you anywhere you want to go non-stop) is important. Maybe we'll see new ads mentioning UA's service soon.

It is going to be interesting to see what happens, but I wouldn't put money on WN just yet. UA is going to re-emerge from bankruptcy and just maybe, will be an airline to be contended with again.
 
FATFlyer
Posts: 4425
Joined: Fri May 18, 2001 4:12 am

RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
where is Mariner?

Time difference with down under. Let him wake up first.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
airfrnt
Posts: 1992
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting FXramper (Reply 3):
Although a competitor, F9 outta DEN is laughable..

Really? F9 has a huge following in DEN. They are one of the most popular companies out here, and have done well despite several attempts by UA to kill them (not the least of which was TED).

I actually flew into DEN yesterday on a Airtran Flight. There was a sparkly new Southwest plane at gate C43. Inside it looked like one big party, with a ton of people there wearing southwest sweaters and the gate looked full for the next flight.

DEN also mentioned that they plan to add 4 more gates to C for Southwest.

I don't see Southwest's entry into DEN as being a negative for either F9 or UA. UA is going to be diversifying DEN a bit with some more flights, and probably more international traffic. F9 is working on their mexican route system right now. Southwest is not about to challange either of thoose two markets.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 5360
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 26):
Really? The very few times I boarded Southwest I was under the impression that them and Greyhound cater exactly to the same crowd.

My recent flights displayed exactly the opposite. SEA-SJC was a broad mix of families, students, etc. SJC-LAX and LAX-OAK were FULL of business types. Well-dressed, well-spoken, etc. OAK-SEA was also a mix, though again it had it's share of business types.

On LAX-OAK I got to sit next to a lady who was telling her friend about a six figure job that she was being offered, but she really wasn't ready to go back to work after having her kids. It got me thinking about many of the successful people that I know who go out of their way looking for value - i.e. millionaire who complains about something being expensive, and who runs a very tight business. Seems to me that NOT squandering your money is a good way of keeping it.

(The two things that seem to preclude some from flying WN is the lack of an interline FF program, and no assigned seating.)

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 36):
Wow...I must admit... Take preference, run to the galley, pour drink, run down the aisle, serve pax...my best guess would be...6 to 9 at a time (no cans would fit on tray) take preference, run to the galley....and so forth...

You make it sound like a playground. Honestly, it is very relaxed and, like said above, great for the passengers who don't have to "hold it" for 20 minutes while the cart slowly slides down the aisle. And, while I'm not 100% certain, I think someone is in the galley pouring the drinks while someone else is delivering them. It's not like one person is doing all the work.

-Dave
-Dave
 
FLY777UAL
Topic Author
Posts: 4830
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting SBN580 (Reply 19):
Kind of makes sense since that is the only type they fly.

First of all, just curious as to how I was quoted as talking about WN's 737 type rating policy, but anyway...

Wouldn't it be unusual for an airline to require a type rating, even if it is their only type of aircraft...don't most just require a multi-engine rating to be considered for hiring?

 
iowaman
Posts: 3878
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:42 am

Southwest Airlines Begins Service in Denver, Announces Additional Flights and Destinations
New Service Announced to Baltimore/Washington and Salt Lake City

DENVER, Jan. 3 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Southwest Airlines (NYSE: LUV) toasted its new service at Denver International Airport. Not only did Southwest Airlines show its panache to Denver travelers, the airline also announced new destinations it will serve from Denver International Airport. To see Southwest Airlines' full Denver schedule or to book a flight to Denver or from the Mile High City to any of Southwest's 61 other destinations, visit: http://www.southwest.com/jp/luvhome.shtml?src=PR_DEN_010306

"Denver has been a missing link in Southwest's system for too long, and we've known the demand for Southwest Airlines service is strong in Colorado," said Gary Kelly, Southwest Airlines Chief Executive Officer. "Today, we're not only celebrating the start of our new service, but we're pleased to announce two new destinations that Southwest Airlines will serve nonstop from Denver International Airport."

Southwest Airlines begins its Denver service today with 13 daily nonstop flights to the following cities: Chicago Midway (four daily), Las Vegas (five daily), and Phoenix (four daily). The airline will offer direct or connecting service to 36 additional destinations, such as Ft. Lauderdale/Hollywood, Pittsburgh, Nashville, Orlando, and Seattle/Tacoma.

Beginning March 4, 2006, Southwest Airlines will offer new nonstop service between Denver and Baltimore/Washington (one daily nonstop departure) and new nonstop service between Denver and Salt Lake City (four daily nonstop departures). Southwest is offering these new flights to Customers at very low fares. Nonstop flights to Baltimore/Washington start as low as $99* one-way with 21-day advance purchase, and nonstop flights to Salt Lake City start as low as $49* one-way with 21-day advance purchase (*see fare rules). Also, beginning March 4, 2006, Southwest will add one additional flight between Denver and Phoenix (for a total of five daily nonstop departures) and one additional flight between Denver and Las Vegas (for a total of six daily nonstop departures).

"This new service will grow our Denver operation from 13 daily nonstop departures today to 20 daily nonstop departures -- all in less than three months! We know our Denver Employees will wow our Customers with their warmth and efficiency, keeping the demand high for more Southwest service in Denver," Kelly said. "These new flights demonstrate Southwest's commitment to Denver and our commitment to Colorado travelers. Southwest is the low fare provider; in fact, our fares top out at only $299** one-way, which will benefit all Colorado Customers."

Denver Mayor John Hickenlooper and Denver International Airport Co- Managers Vickie Braunagel and Turner West joined Kelly today at the event. The gate areas were decorated in a New Year's theme, and the event was kicked off with Southwest Airlines Employees declaring their New Year's resolutions for the airline's new Denver service. After Kelly announced the airline's plan for new service, he and Mayor Hickenlooper toasted the crowd with oversized champagne glasses.

With the addition of Denver, Southwest Airlines now offers nearly 3,000 daily flights to 62 cities in 32 states. Southwest Airlines employs 40 local Employees and more than 31,000 Employees nationwide. For Southwest Airlines' lowest fares, visit http://www.southwest.com.

http://southwest.com/about_swa/press/prindex.html
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 42):
Time difference with down under. Let him wake up first.

I was thinking of that..but I figured he has some kind of email "alert" which will wake him up when the word "Frontier" gets mentioned on this thread...

edit:

I meant when "Frontier" mentioned on A.net... Smile

[Edited 2006-01-03 18:44:44]
"Up the Irons!"
 
FATFlyer
Posts: 4425
Joined: Fri May 18, 2001 4:12 am

RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 44):
It got me thinking about many of the successful people that I know who go out of their way looking for value - i.e. millionaire who complains about something being expensive, and who runs a very tight business. Seems to me that NOT squandering your money is a good way of keeping it.

The point made by the book "The Millionaire Next Door". Its not what you spend but what you keep, in other words your net worth.

For those not familiar with the book, here is a link to Chapter 1.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ooks/chap1/millionairenextdoor.htm
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!

Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 5):
And contrary to popular misconception, many, many businessmen will opt to fly Southwest

Why would a business pax that lives in Denver fly WN over UA or F9? WN will serve 3 or after today 5 cities from DEN, not a whole lot. If you can fly a mainline carrier that has a huge Intl. network and flys nonstop pretty much to the entire country from your city why would you pick a different airline????

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 22):
You are not going to enjoy competing against WN over the long term for short haul passengers when you are getting a 12 cent yield. Sooner or later somebody is going to blink. History suggests it won't be WN.

FRONTIER AIRLINES has the lowest CASM in the industry. If WN wants to play F9 can compete.

Everyone is throwing F9 out to die. Obviously these people do not live in Colorado because they would know that F9 is one of the most loved companies around here. F9 has a huge following and a large group of loyal customers that doesn't look anywhere else for tickets. F9 has one of the most loyal customers basis of ANY airline....
/// UNITED AIRLINES