MAH4546
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LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:06 am

LANArgentina will have Argentinean-registered 767-300ERs by April or May 2006, which will allow them to start daily, Miami-Buenos Aires service. Service was to start on 1 December 2005, but canceled only hours before the inagural, because the flight was to use Chilean-registered aicraft. The article (Spanish-only) also mentions LANArgentina is looking at expanding to Brazil (Rio and Sao Paulo), as well as Madrid and Los Angeles.

Also, as LAN does not like to have planes sitting at MIA during the day, I would not be surprised if they give the LV-registered 763 something else to do during the day, possibly operating the daily LANEcuador MIA-UIO-GYE-UIO-MIA flight.

Article:
http://www.eldiario.cl/shnoti.asp?noticia=25458
a.
 
EZEIZA
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:34 am

Let's see if this time they can really start  Wink
Funny thing this on aeropuertos argentina 2000 webpage today they still have 4M flight #4521 from MIA on arrivals, and instead of an actual arrival time it says "consulte compañia" ("ask agent/company").

While we're on topic, I heard that the A320's that LAN was going to bring for domestic flights will arrive in May. Does anyone have aditional info?

saludos
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Arcano
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:09 pm

I flew last week in what it was supposed to be one of LAN Argentina flight, the LA504 EZE-SCL-MIA.
I returned yesterday, more details to come soon at "Trip Reports".

Happy new year everybody
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:14 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Also, as LAN does not like to have planes sitting at MIA during the day, I would not be surprised if they give the LV-registered 763 something else to do during the day, possibly operating the daily LANEcuador MIA-UIO-GYE-UIO-MIA flight.

They cannot do this.

The planes NEED to be allocated to LAN Argentina, and only to be used as LAN Argentina. The problem is not only the Chilean registered airplanes, the problem was that LAN rotates the planes - whereas the Law, doesn't allow that here.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
PDPsol
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:45 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 3):
Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Also, as LAN does not like to have planes sitting at MIA during the day, I would not be surprised if they give the LV-registered 763 something else to do during the day, possibly operating the daily LANEcuador MIA-UIO-GYE-UIO-MIA flight.

They cannot do this.

The planes NEED to be allocated to LAN Argentina, and only to be used as LAN Argentina. The problem is not only the Chilean registered airplanes, the problem was that LAN rotates the planes - whereas the Law, doesn't allow that here.

Well then, here's a solution:

Why not have LAN Argentina fly the LV-registered 767-316ER's as a 4M flight MIA-UIO/BOG/CCS whatever... Rather than fly as a LAN Ecuador or LAN Peru flight, simply fly it as a LAN Argentina flight. This, of course, is assuming they are allowed to do this. Why wouldn't they?

The whole business model for LAN is to have a full Latin American REGIONAL carrier, without regards for national barriers.

Do Argentine carriers, such as 4M, have fifth-freedom rights to fly from US destinations, such as MIA, to other international destinations?

These restrictions seem ridiculous!

What is up with all these LAWS in Argentina???

Actually, there are WAAAAYYY too many rules in international civil aviation in general. WAAAAYYY too many restrictions, limits, rules, etc.
 
MAH4546
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:59 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 3):

They cannot do this.

The planes NEED to be allocated to LAN Argentina, and only to be used as LAN Argentina. The problem is not only the Chilean registered airplanes, the problem was that LAN rotates the planes - whereas the Law, doesn't allow that here.

They can do that, as long as the flight is operated by LANArgentina crew. LAN doesn't like valuable planes sitting on the ground. They will find somewhere to send it from MIA during the day.

The problem isn't using the planes only as LANArgentina, but using the planes only with LANArgentina crew working it. The Argentine government isn't going to complain of they let a LANArgentina plane operate a LANEcuador flight, as long as LANArgentina crew are flying it. It is essentially LANArgentina excercising 5th freedom rights.
a.
 
2travel2know
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
LAN does not like to have planes sitting at MIA during the day, I would not be surprised if they give the LV-registered 763 something else to do during the day,

Given the problems operating argentine aircraft for other LAN x-country flights and the fact that if LAN Argentina wants to send that aircraft back to EZE daytime via BOG/UIO/GYE/CCS/LIM/COR they're going to need an aditional B767, I wouldn't be surprised that LAN Argentina flight departs EZE 0100 and arrives EZE 0500h, trying to minimize the time it sits on the MIA tarmac.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
MAH4546
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 6):

Given the problems operating argentine aircraft for other LAN x-country flights and the fact that if LAN Argentina wants to send that aircraft back to EZE daytime via BOG/UIO/GYE/CCS/LIM/COR they're going to need an aditional B767,

No they aren't. They are only going to need 2 767s to operate a daily MIA flight. One 767 would operate EZE-MIA redeye, then MIA-XXX-MIA during the day, then MIA-EZE redeye. The second would be doing MIA-EZE redeye, fly from EZE for the day, and then EZE-MIA redeye at night.

There are no problems using LAN Argentina flights on other country flights. The problem that Argentina has is that the way LAN Chile operate their subsidiaries is that one plane will operate a LAN Chile flight, then a LAN Peru flight, then a LAN Ecuador flight, all with different crew. Argentina doesn't like this. What they want is that LAN Argentina planes are only flown by LAN Argentina crew and not interchanged with other crew. They can fly other routes.
a.
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:00 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
There are no problems using LAN Argentina flights on other country flights. The problem that Argentina has is that the way LAN Chile operate their subsidiaries is that one plane will operate a LAN Chile flight, then a LAN Peru flight, then a LAN Ecuador flight, all with different crew. Argentina doesn't like this. What they want is that LAN Argentina planes are only flown by LAN Argentina crew and not interchanged with other crew. They can fly other routes.

Is it so hard to understand for you that the planes can only fly LAN Argentina's route? That's what I mean by allocated to LAN Argentina ONLY. The crews are only the tip of the iceberg to the problem. LAN wanted to fly with Chilean registered, chilean flown, and chilean attended planes. The answer was no. Argentine registered, argentine flown, and argentine attended PLUS only flying LAN Argentina's routes. No matter what, these planes cannot be used anywhere else as long as they belong to LAN Argentina.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
MAH4546
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 8):

Is it so hard to understand for you that the planes can only fly LAN Argentina's route? That's what I mean by allocated to LAN Argentina ONLY. The crews are only the tip of the iceberg to the problem. LAN wanted to fly with Chilean registered, chilean flown, and chilean attended planes. The answer was no. Argentine registered, argentine flown, and argentine attended PLUS only flying LAN Argentina's routes. No matter what, these planes cannot be used anywhere else as long as they belong to LAN Argentina.

That is not how I have understood it, perhaps your right, I don't know. I don't see why the Argentine government would have any problems with LANArgentina flying, for example, MIA-UIO, as long as it is 4M crew. It is no different than Aerolineas Argentinas excercising 5th freedom rights on GRU-FCO, as they have in the past.
a.
 
travelin man
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:30 am

I think EZE-LAX would be a nice market. Aerolineas Argentinas used to fly to LAX, and beyond Varig and LanChile, LAX (and the entire West Coast) to South America seems somewhat underserved.

Even 3x weekly or something would probably be successful. Is LanArgentina joining OneWorld or codesharing with anybody? Given LAX's status as an Asia-Pacific hub, it could provide good connections between Asia and Argentina.
 
USADreamliner
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 4):
Why not have LAN Argentina fly the LV-registered 767-316ER's as a 4M flight MIA-UIO/BOG/CCS whatever

Dude, why not United flying Cape Town-Nairobi-Cairo?

Is just ridiculous.


USADreamliner
 
MAH4546
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 11):

Dude, why not United flying Cape Town-Nairobi-Cairo?

Is just ridiculous.

No it is not. It is great aircraft usage. The 763 that operates LAN's redeye MIA-SCL flight goes on to operate MIA-XXX-SCL during daylight hours. XXX is Punta Cana, Caracas, or Bogota, depending on the day. The flights have been around for over a decade.
a.
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
That is not how I have understood it, perhaps your right, I don't know. I don't see why the Argentine government would have any problems with LANArgentina flying, for example, MIA-UIO, as long as it is 4M crew. It is no different than Aerolineas Argentinas excercising 5th freedom rights on GRU-FCO, as they have in the past.

Mike, I just re-read my post, and it came out harsh. Didn't want it to be that way.

The problem is the following, the pilots are not the essential problem here. Southern Winds (A4) had its Air Atlanta flown by Air Atlanta Icelandic pilots, but served by Argentine crews, and the plances were registered in Iceland, TF-ARA, TF-ARB. These were used to go to the United States when Argentina was downgraded to CAT II, since no other LV-registered planes were allowed into the United States territory. A4 had those planes all to herself. Whilst LAN (Chile) Airlines will rotate them, fly them with chilean cabin crew, leaving LAN Argentina with no plane, either wet-leased, dry-leased or owned.
The Government knows that LAN's intention is to create another ghost company, so that they can sell tickets through LAN Argentina, just like LAN Ecuador is, and now, joining the ranks, LAN Perú. All airplanes registered in Bermudas have been re registered to Chile.
We are talking about the international flights, here only.
The Government's posture is this one: If we have let you create a company, a company that you (LAN Airlines) effectively control, develop it as a REAL airline, that covers its own routes, with airplanes affected ONLY to that airline, as a REAL airline would do. The airplanes should be affected to LAN Argentina only, no matter what - wet-leased, dry-leased, or owned.

The main issue is not having LAN Argentina as a GHOST company, as LAN Perú and LAN Ecuador.
Flying EZE-MIA, and then to UIO, would have to make it one LAN Argentina flight and that would require 5th freedom rights in the route, to make it EZE-MIA-UIO-MIA-EZE.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
MAH4546
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 13):
Flying EZE-MIA, and then to UIO, would have to make it one LAN Argentina flight and that would require 5th freedom rights in the route, to make it EZE-MIA-UIO-MIA-EZE.

Yes, exactly, and that what was I was referring to. Having 4M fly MIA-UIO-MIA, if they can get 5th freedom, with their pilots and crew. Obviously, the flight would have an XL* codeshare, but it would also be a 4M* flight, as how the LANChile operated flights from LAX have LP* codeshares. I'm pretty sure, pending approval of 5th freedom rights, that could work. If not, something else 4M could do is have the redeye flights operate non-stop between Miami and Buenos Aires, but have daylight flights from both cities that make intermediate stops in Caracas, Bogota, or whatnot. This would increase aircraft utilization and also allow LAN Argentina to offer service to those South American cities. As I mentioned, LAN Chile does this at MIA, offering a daily Miami-Santiago daylight service with a different stop depending on the day. When the service first launches, I expect 4M to just park the plane in Miami all day, but eventually, they are going to find a way to utlize the aircraft. LAN doesn't like parking planes, and that is a good business decission that helps keep them financially sound.
a.
 
miaskies
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:15 am

Quick question, how many LAN 763's does MIA see daily? (not counting LAN Cargo)
Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
 
sflaflight
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
something else 4M could do is have the redeye flights operate non-stop between Miami and Buenos Aires, but have daylight flights from both cities that make intermediate stops in Caracas, Bogota, or whatnot. This would increase aircraft utilization and also allow LAN Argentina to offer service to those South American cities.

To me, that would be the most logical. I think LAN should copy the model used for SCL flights. EZE-MIA-XXX-EZE. I can't understand why Argentina would have a problem with that. Keep planes, crew and pilots Argentine. Besides, I know that some of the local MIA-EZE traffic wouldn't mind a daylight flight to EZE with a stop to stretch. Beats a red-eye for some people. Total utilization of the aircraft.
 
MAH4546
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:14 am

Quoting MIASkies (Reply 15):
Quick question, how many LAN 763's does MIA see daily? (not counting LAN Cargo)

The most is seven daily flights on Sunday; the fewest is four on certain weekdays.

MIA-SCL-MIA: 10x to 14x weekly depending on season
MIA-LIM-MIA: 8x weekly
MIA-UIO-GYE: 7x weekly
MIA-XXX-SCL: 7x (XXX being BOG-GYE/CCS/PUJ depending on day)
MIA-CUN: 2x weekly, connecting traffic only
a.
 
pdxtriple7
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:45 pm

Question, slighly off topic: Which are LAN division are the LAX-LIM flights operated by? Any chance the route will go to an A343 this summer? (I'm flying them in June and wondering if I'll have the new interior 767 or a substituted A343).
 
BigGSFO
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:16 pm

Quoting PDXtriple7 (Reply 18):
Which are LAN division are the LAX-LIM flights operated by?

I believe it is LA (Chile). The flight continues to SCL. Speaking of LAX to South America, will LAX-SCL non-stop ever come back/happen?
 
MAH4546
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:56 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 19):
will LAX-SCL non-stop ever come back/happen?

There really is no market. Travel between the US and Chile is bare. Atlanta, Dallas, and Miami are the only US markets with non-stop flights to Santiago. Miami has the O&D, while Atlanta and Dallas are large enough hubs that they can support it with connecting traffic (and even so, most of AA and DL's revenue on DFW- and ATL-SCL is cargo revenue; I know DFW-SCL goes out very light, especially during the northern summer). JFK-SCL non-stops will be re-introduced before LAX-SCL is.
a.
 
latinaviation
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:36 am

According to this morning's Aviation Daily, the Argentine Ministry of Transportation (MDT) put a hold on the route stemming from the FAA's upgradeof Argentina from Cat II to Cat I, which complicated Lan Argentina's ability to operate aircraft licensed in third countries. It quoted a Lan Argentina rep as stating they are implementing technical and operational provisions to start operating as an Argentine company (I suspect he meant with LV-registered aircraft).
 
USADreamliner
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
No it is not. It is great aircraft usage. The 763 that operates LAN's redeye MIA-SCL flight goes on to operate MIA-XXX-SCL during daylight hours. XXX is Punta Cana, Caracas, or Bogota, depending on the day. The flights have been around for over a decade.

Is a LANARGENTINA plane!!!!!!!!!!!
Not LANEcuador!!! Not LANChile!!!!!!!!!!!

LANARgentina flies from BUENOS AIRES TO OTHER CITIES.
NOT FROM MIAMI TO ECUADOR!!!!!!!!

Get it????

USADReamliner
 
MAH4546
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:46 am

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 22):

Is a LANARGENTINA plane!!!!!!!!!!!
Not LANEcuador!!! Not LANChile!!!!!!!!!!!

LANARgentina flies from BUENOS AIRES TO OTHER CITIES.
NOT FROM MIAMI TO ECUADOR!!!!!!!!

Get it????

No, I don't get it. Perhaps you could be a little more clear and use sentences to explain what you are trying to say.
a.
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting PDXtriple7 (Reply 18):
Question, slighly off topic: Which are LAN division are the LAX-LIM flights operated by? Any chance the route will go to an A343 this summer? (I'm flying them in June and wondering if I'll have the new interior 767 or a substituted A343).

It's operated by LAN Chile, LAN Perú only codeshares.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 19):
I believe it is LA (Chile). The flight continues to SCL. Speaking of LAX to South America, will LAX-SCL non-stop ever come back/happen?

Probably never. There's no market. Neither SCL nor EZE, can maintain substantial good loads to the US West Coast, without LIM or BOG helping as an intermediate stop.

Quoting LatinAviation (Reply 21):
According to this morning's Aviation Daily, the Argentine Ministry of Transportation (MDT) put a hold on the route stemming from the FAA's upgradeof Argentina from Cat II to Cat I, which complicated Lan Argentina's ability to operate aircraft licensed in third countries. It quoted a Lan Argentina rep as stating they are implementing technical and operational provisions to start operating as an Argentine company (I suspect he meant with LV-registered aircraft).

More than just the LV-registered plane. He meant to say that the Government will not authorize another ghost company created by LAN, like LAN Perú or LAN Ecuador. Those are examples of ghost companies, that have no real planes and have really no employees. Employed by LAN Chile and not by LAN Perú, even though, they are Peruvians - just as an example. They intended to do the same thing here - the Government said NO

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
AA767400
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:36 am

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 22):
Is a LANARGENTINA plane!!!!!!!!!!!
Not LANEcuador!!! Not LANChile!!!!!!!!!!!

LANARgentina flies from BUENOS AIRES TO OTHER CITIES.
NOT FROM MIAMI TO ECUADOR!!!!!!!!

Get it????

Ok!

One: Take a deep breath.

Two: Keeping the plane on the ground with expensive parking fees is not good, when you can fly it to a destination where you can make money.

Three: Are you having a break down?

And four: Stop yelling. Not only is it rude, it makes you seem out of touch with reality at this point.

Relax Esteban, the weather in Miami is great, enjoy it.  Smile
"The low fares airline."
 
Arcano
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 13):
fly them with chilean cabin crew

BTW, most of my SCL-MIA crew was Argentine people, and it was grat. Good thing no body felt offended or something. Besides, we Chileans have always admired Argentina costumer attention, you do it so great!

Quoting PDXtriple7 (Reply 18):
Question, slighly off topic: Which are LAN division are the LAX-LIM flights operated by? Any chance the route will go to an A343 this summer? (I'm flying them in June and wondering if I'll have the new interior 767 or a substituted A343).

Probably not, remember that LAN is increasing flights to Australia, where the 767 is not an option. Unless they finally decide to get more long range aircraft, as they should. As for the interiors, the PTV equiped 763s are just comfortable as the 340 cabin

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 22):
LANARgentina flies from BUENOS AIRES TO OTHER CITIES. NOT FROM MIAMI TO ECUADOR!!!!!!!!Get it????

Not really, before the creation of LAN Ecuador, Lan Chile got the right to fly to Ecuador, using former Ecuatoriana rights, to fly MIA-UIO-MIA during the day, being a full Lan Chile flight, so it's not that you are married to a route and you can't move from there.

Regards )(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:33 pm

Quoting Arcano (Reply 26):
Not really, before the creation of LAN Ecuador, Lan Chile got the right to fly to Ecuador, using former Ecuatoriana rights, to fly MIA-UIO-MIA during the day, being a full Lan Chile flight, so it's not that you are married to a route and you can't move from there.

It's different here. You don't have a defunct airline so that the company can argue that they need to keep the country communicated and cover up for the missing carrier. You need 5th freedom rights FROM the United States, and the flight needs to be operated by LAN Argentina's by Argentine pilots and crew and under the LAN Argentina brand. It's going to take at least 6 months since the start of the flight to do that.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 26):
BTW, most of my SCL-MIA crew was Argentine people, and it was grat. Good thing no body felt offended or something. Besides, we Chileans have always admired Argentina costumer attention, you do it so great!

Were they employed by LAN Airlines or Aero 2000? It's two different things, you know.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
Derico
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RE: LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX

Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:50 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 4):
What is up with all these LAWS in Argentina???

Argentina is bureaucracy. If Argentina wasn't bureaucracy then it would be Chile. Well, a slight exageration but what the heck...

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 27):
You need 5th freedom rights FROM the United States, and the flight needs to be operated by LAN Argentina's by Argentine pilots and crew and under the LAN Argentina brand. It's going to take at least 6 months since the start of the flight to do that.

Why do they need to wait 6 months for this?? Seems like a long time for something seemingly simple.

BTW, why does everyone like Argentine customer service? I think it sucks. I've been treated much better anywhere in Latin America but Argentina.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down