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clickhappy
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Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:56 am

Has anything more been heard about the Lion Air order for 60 737-800's and -900's?

Seems the original order was for 60 frames (source: Forbes) yet Boeing lists the order as 30 on their website.

I also seem to remember there was some question about how Lion Air was going to actually pay for these planes. Any news on that?
 
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scbriml
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:24 am

Clickhappy, is this another Airbus bashing thread? Oh wait...  wink 

According to this here Boeing press release the order was for "up to 60". It mentions 30 firm and 30 options.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/2005/q3/nr_050718g.html
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clickhappy
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:29 am

Always a bad sign to launch a new variation with a vaporware order.

The press release you linked to says the 737-900ER will have an EIS in mid-2007. So Boeing is going ahead? Anyone have any details on when the first 900ER will role out?
 
starrion
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:30 am

If we're going to talk vaporware orders what is the status of Primaris....

If the order makes the OEM website it should be considered cast in stone unless the company itself does a FLYI. .. ..
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clickhappy
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:45 am

Primaris was never counted as an order. Primaris does not show up as a customer on any of the Boeing 'Order and Delivery' webpages.

At any rate, this thread is about Lion Air.
 
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:02 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 2):
Always a bad sign to launch a new variation with a vaporware order.

Who gave you the authority to designate what is vaporware and what is not???? LOL... I find these posts very humorous. I guess Boeing is a fool signed up for vaporware. lol...

SpiceJet has also signed for the 739ER. Are they in your vaporware order book too? lol... sorry...

give us a hint on next weeks Vaporware post? I'm dying here to know...

Cheers,

Ric
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:15 am

My definition of a Vaporware order is an order from an airline that is either very small or brand new that orders a s-load of planes, and then you never hear from them again.

60 frames from an airline that has never ordered new before is an eyeopener.

If my topics somehow offend you feel free to not read them.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 6):
My definition of a Vaporware order is an order from an airline that is either very small or brand new that orders a s-load of planes, and then you never hear from them again.

Like...jetBlue?
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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Stitch
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:24 am

Well I guess we should just consider the sub-Asian/Indian market "vapor" since these large "vaporware" orders come from carriers based in those markets:

• Lion Air's 739ER order.
• IndiGo's A320 order.

What next, we call Air India's 68-plane 777/787 order vaporware? How about Kingfisher and Indian Airlines large Airbus narrowbody orders?  

[Edited 2006-01-04 22:36:22]
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:26 am

No, not like JetBlue.

JetBlue had major investors and came together rather quickly.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 9):
JetBlue had major investors and came together rather quickly.

How do you know LionAir doesn't have major investors? Because you haven't heard of them? Sheesh.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
A319XFW
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:29 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
And you forgot Ryanair and easyJet, N328KF

Didn't Ryanair and easyJet start off with leased aircraft though.
Thus they didn't order straight from Boeing to start with. and once they did place their orders they were the largest LCC's in Europe.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:33 am

No, because a Google search for LionAir Investors brings back very little information.

I also read they were having trouble lining up financing.

And what do you mean by LionAir and IndiGo being in the same market?
 
N79969
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:34 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
Well I guess we should just consider the Indian market "vapor" since these large "vaporware" orders come from carriers based in that market:

• Lion Air's 739ER order.
• IndiGo's A320 order.

I thought Lion Air is Indonesian.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:36 am

So did I, but I guess since they both start with "I" they are the same market.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 13):
I thought Lion Air is Indonesian.

Don't know ( can't ya tell?  Smile )

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 14):
So did I, but I guess since they both start with "I" they are the same market.

Works for me.  Wink
 
A319XFW
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:56 am

Here we have it... Indonesia!

http://www.lionair.co.id/about.htm

Quote:

Routes
Lion Air headquarter is in Jakarta. Presently. Lion Air holds fifty domestic routes including all of the high volume routes which have been confirmed by the Indonesian government and has the destinations to and from the Asia Pacific region.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12):
No, because a Google search for LionAir Investors brings back very little information.

Do you read Indonesian?

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12):
I also read they were having trouble lining up financing.

Read, where? Here?
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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LN-MOW
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
Quoting N79969 (Reply 13):
I thought Lion Air is Indonesian.

Don't know ( can't ya tell? Smile )



Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 14):
So did I, but I guess since they both start with "I" they are the same market.

Works for me. Wink

'I' also stands for 'Ignorant'. Very appropriate in this case...
- I am LN-MOW, and I approve this message.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:09 am

Quoting LN-MOW (Reply 18):
'I' also stands for 'Ignorant'. Very appropriate in this case...

Well UA is my specialty.  

But at least I'm willing to accept when I am wrong and learn when educated, which seems to be a virtue in this forum.  Silly

[Edited 2006-01-04 23:11:48]
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:12 am

I don't read Hindi either, but there seems to be plenty of information about Indian carries through Google, so I don't know what your point is other than to be ignorant and combative.

When President Yudhoyono visited Washington DC in May they said they would pay for the aircraft with bank loans, yet no news has been forthcoming.
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 6):
My definition of a Vaporware order is an order from an airline that is either very small or brand new that orders a s-load of planes,

Well this airline already operates a fleet of 30 plus MD-80s IIRC so they at least have a lot more infrastructure in place than some other "start ups" or "small carriers"

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 5):
SpiceJet has also signed for the 739ER.

No they have not. However, they have expressed an interest in buying the model. Get your facts right or maybe "vapor" world is too enjoyable.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12):
I also read they were having trouble lining up financing.

Not according to this report, fair use excerpt

By Soraya Permatasari
Sept. 30 (Bloomberg) -- PT Lion Mentari Airlines, Indonesia's biggest budget carrier, has obtained $3.7 billion in loans to fund the purchase of 60 planes from Boeing Co., Bisnis Indonesia reported, citing a company official.


For full financing details I suggest you place a call to the Export-Import Bank, the one owned and operated by the Government of the USA. I've no doubt they would be more than willing to provide you with the financing they have arranged for Lion Air. What? With you being a Federal Taxpayer and all, surely you deserve an answer, no?

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 9):
JetBlue had major investors and came together rather quickly

The U.S. Governments money is more highly rated than that of Mr George Soros whom was one of the seed investors in JetBlue

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 2):
Anyone have any details on when the first 900ER will role out?

The caveats in those loans indicate that Lion Air will take delivery of their first 739ER in May 2007. If not a 739ER it will be a 738.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12):
No, because a Google search for LionAir Investors brings back very little information

When it comes to financing a Credit Risk such as that of said operator. There is a whole lot more to the world than Google, I suggest you use it. Here's a starter, The International Finance Review. Good hunting.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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clickhappy
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:50 am

Thank you for your info!

Nice to see they got the $$$ lined up.

Your sarcasim cheapens an otherwise excellent post.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 22):
Your sarcasim cheapens an otherwise excellent post.

That's a bit rich isn't it? You've been mocking Lion Air this whole thread despite admitting you know little about them. Oh and a Google search is yet to be the definitive in information gathering...yet.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:13 am

I dont know where I mocked them but whatever you say. If I was going to mock it would look something like "Isn't New Zealand an Australian state?"

See the difference?

I am glad that LionAir is going to be getting these planes, and I can't wait to photograph them @ BFI.

I find it odd that so many small airlines are planning such explosive growth. Another example os the head of Air Asia saying he wants to have 400 planes (in what seems like a very short period of time).
 
boeingbus
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:16 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 21):
No they have not. However, they have expressed an interest in buying the model. Get your facts right or maybe "vapor" world is too enjoyable.

 yes   yes   yes   yes   yes   yes   yes   yes   yes   yes 
YES, you are so absolutely right... There was an article in the news recently about their interest... Glad you retain these details...
 yes   yes   yes   yes   yes   yes   yes   yes   yes   yes 
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 22):
Thank you for your info!

You are most welcome

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 22):
Your sarcasim cheapens an otherwise excellent post

Respectfully, that could be construed as a two-way street sir. Besides, if my tax $$$ were going to that country, which they are for other purposes, I would be very concerned with the following report.

Again, fair use excerpt,

DJ Indonesia's Garuda: To Default On Principal Debt Payment

JAKARTA (Dow Jones)--Indonesia's flag carrier PT Garuda Indonesia won't pay the principal of certain debt falling due at the end of the month, but will continue to service interest and pay aircraft leases, it said late Thursday.
"While Garuda has made significant progress in developing the basis for presenting a (debt) restructuring plan to its stakeholders since commencing discussion in November 2005, additional work is required to reconcile complex inter-creditor and governmental issues...," it said it a press release.


Perhaps that can be your next "vaporware" title thread. Garuda and the 787

Regards, PanAm_DC10

P.S. As for the Aussie Kiwi thing, let's leave that to the London Cabbies, ok?  

[Edited 2006-01-05 01:54:49]
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
N79969
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:33 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 24):
If I was going to mock it would look something like "Isn't New Zealand an Australian state?"

I like the Daily Show's description: It's Australia's Canada...
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:06 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 24):
I dont know where I mocked them but whatever you say. If I was going to mock it would look something like "Isn't New Zealand an Australian state?"

I think that if you had left the "Vaporware" comment out and simply asked for the help of others in determining whether or not the financing was arranged you would have had a better reaction. Even a simple question mark would have made the thread title a bit less incendiary.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 24):
I find it odd that so many small airlines are planning such explosive growth. Another example os the head of Air Asia saying he wants to have 400 planes (in what seems like a very short period of time).

The population of Indonesia is almost as great as the US. 30/60 doesn't seem unrealistic although I agree that 400 may be stretching it.
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:19 am

If Lion Air takes up all the options from the 739ER order , their fleet of those aircraft alone will be as large as Garuda's all together (mid 50's). How will all these airlines in India like Kingfisher and Indigo survive? Why did they order so many planes?
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:43 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 21):
The U.S. Governments money is more highly rated than that of Mr George Soros whom was one of the seed investors in JetBlue

A great reason not to fly B6!
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:44 pm

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 29):
How will all these airlines in India like Kingfisher and Indigo survive? Why did they order so many planes?

India and China are the two huge boom markets at the moment. With rapidly expanding economies and a combined population of 2.5 billion (that's 10 times that of the USA), they might need a few more over the next 20 years! Consider, in November and December China announced they would buy 220 new A320s and 737s (with the prospect of more to come!)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 27):
I like the Daily Show's description: It's Australia's Canada...

Off-topic but so true!! I've often thought that about us  Smile

Wow, so why on earth is New Zealand being discussed on the Daily Show?
 
mandala499
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:45 pm

There's no way that all 60 can be absorbed by Lion...

Quite a few of Lion's 739s will probably end up in their ACMI Ops in Vietnam (Pacific Airlines) and Myanmar (MAI). A few of the airports here are already giving them weight restrictions on their MD80s and 734s...

And they'll try again to open more intl routes (SIN is severely reduced from the published 4x daily, CGK-SGN doesn't really fly... CGK-MNL-ICN was a dream to start off with... I really thought they were stupid trying to open that route with the 734).

It's now Indonesia's 2nd largest airline, but it's still one of the biggest jokes in Indonesian skies...

Re. Garuda's order... 2 years under the interim board (2003-2005) really screwed everything up! From an airline that was recovering from debt to one that's can't even pay its debt under 1 management is an amazing negative feat... However, I am glad the current board is getting it under control. The 738 that's currently in service apparently might not be from the 738 order that was announced last year... The 787? Well, it was just to avoid getting penalties from the 777 cancellation... LOL

I do hope the current board will last through the whole recovery!

Mandala499
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HB-IWC
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:20 am

I second Mandala499's opinion. Lion Air is extremely unlikely to ever take up the 30 firm orders it has supposedly made. Their active fleet is down from its height of around 25 airframes to less than 20. The airline has never operated 30+ frames as someone stated above, and at this moment I can't really see where they would be operating 30 extra planes.

The Indonesian market is suffering from oversaturation and with an inflation rate of 18% in 2005, combined with a much smaller increase in average wages, the much acclaimed sourcing of new markets is unlikely to happen for another while, as other modes of travel within the country are once again cheaper than air travel.

On the international front, Lion has dramatically failed to make any impression at all. Its initial boasting of 4 daily services to Singapore has made way for a single daily flight, which is often cancelled. Its Vietnam service has died a silent death. Other announced international projects, including flights to Hongkong, Australia and Japan, to name just a few, have failed to materialize.

As it turns out, non-Indonesian budget conscious travelers don't buy into the shabby concept of Lion, but much rather go for the likes of Tiger, Air Asia or ValuAir and its Singaporean standards of quality and safety. Indonesians, who have the means of traveling abroad -there's few of them- prefer to pay a little extra and fly Garuda, or go the full monty with Singapore Airlines.

In short, I am very sceptical about this large Boeing order. The airline doesn't seem to have the financial resources, or the current or potential market to successfully deploy these airframes.
 
mandala499
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:36 pm

HB-IWC,
U got a list on what's been ACMI-ed out to Pacific and MAI by Lion?

Mandala499
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Oykie
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RE: Vaporware Order - Lion Air And The 737

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 21):
No they have not. However, they have expressed an interest in buying the model. Get your facts right or maybe "vapor" world is too enjoyable.

According to this article they have not signed yet, but will do that this year

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...12/28/stories/2005122802960900.htm
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