ElGreco
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2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:37 am

I heard this morning from Airbus that they have little bit more orders (which ones exactly?) than Boeing in 2005, not in value of course but in number of plane.

Not to restart again a battle A vs B, (or just a little bit, because it's favorite game of some here!!!) but just to close this item.


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LY777
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:54 am

boeing was the winner this year
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, D8,D10,L1011, A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388
 
A319XFW
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:11 am

From what I know it was Boeing.
But both are having press-conferences sometime this week (Airbus tomorrow?), so we'll know the exact numbers then.
 
Halibut
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:12 am

I think Boeing won more orders !



Boeing Looks To Stay On Top! + 900 Orders 2005? (by Halibut Jan 4 2006 in Civil Aviation)


http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/01/04/100bus_corliss001.cfm

Published: Wednesday, January 4, 2006

Boeing looks to stay on top


Bryan Corliss
Herald columnist


Still, the company's year-end net likely will be more than 900 planes, Conte said. The company went into its holiday break with 870 net orders - one exercised option away from the all-time mark of 877 set by Boeing and McDonnell Douglas in 1988 prior to their merger.

If Cathay is in the market, Boeing's got to be the front-runner, considering the airline just bought 777s and is often mentioned as a potential customer for the 747-8 advanced jumbo jet


Halibut
6 million Jews were slaughtered-Do you see Jews flying planes into buildings in Germany to kill 1000s of innocent, NO !
 
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Stitch
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:15 am

Boeing had 870 through 12/20/05.
 
ual747den
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:26 am

Boeing is the Clear winner here!







And for the AWARD!!!

/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
wingman
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:28 am

Airbus would have to have signed some top secret commitments over the holidays to push past Boeing but you never. In the end all that matters is deliveries and Airbus will be at the top of that list for a while.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 6):
Airbus would have to have signed some top secret commitments over the holidays to push past Boeing but you never. In the end all that matters is deliveries and Airbus will be at the top of that list for a while.

True, but one can't have deliveries without first having orders.  Wink

Neither company has any reason but to be proud and hopeful of their accomplishments, across the board, this year.
 
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N328KF
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Neither company has any reason but to be proud and hopeful of their accomplishments, across the board, this year.

Except, perhaps, whomever led the engineering on the A340-500/-600 project.  Wink
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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sebolino
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:52 pm

Funny to read this thread now.




.
.
.
 
oneworld1
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 9):

Too true. This is a very US dominated forum. And ALL that goes with that (lack of perspective etc)
 
Glom
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:59 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 9):
Funny to read this thread now.

Boeing did win on value so it's not that funny.
 
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sebolino
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:07 pm

Quoting Glom (Reply 11):
Boeing did win on value so it's not that funny.

Are you gonna cry ?
 
Glom
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 12):
Are you gonna cry ?

Are you going to grow up?
 
NW727251ADV
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting Glom (Reply 13):
Are you going to grow up?

I 2nd that Glom...when will people like him grow up?

Airbus "won" in aircraft ordered...

Boeing "won" in total value...

The vast majority of A's orders were for one aircraft type...A320...shouldn't be too proud of that but nonetheless they came out on top.
NWA   N O R T H W E S T A I R L I N E S
 
cloudyapple
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:35 pm

Who cares who's won when either has 1000+ orders. Except you lot perhaps. Spotters - get a life.
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
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sebolino
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 14):
The vast majority of A's orders were for one aircraft type...A320...shouldn't be too proud of that but nonetheless they came out on top.

You are the only one to talk about pride, and you are the one childish enough to say it's "only" for A320 as if it was a shame to sell narrowbodies.
I know it's hard for you to admit finally that Airbus planes are also selling well.
 
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N328KF
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting Oneworld1 (Reply 10):
Too true. This is a very US dominated forum. And ALL that goes with that (lack of perspective etc)

Excuse me? I could make a similar comment about people such as yourself who are inherently anti-American. I suggest that you take the liberty of hoisting yourself on your own petard and keep such comments to yourself. It has no relevance to this forum. This thread was based upon credible media reports and the to-date trends for 2005.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
BestWestern
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 17):
This thread was based upon credible media reports

Untrue - It was based on PR spin, and nothing else. Credible needs to be accurate. This thread wasn't accurate.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
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LTU932
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:13 am

I can tell you who the real winner is: the real winners are the airlines.  Wink
 
TaromA380
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 14):
Boeing "won" in total value...

Wrong. Boeing could won in total value, or could lost in total value. Total values are calculated on price list, and we know that means almost nothing. If Boeing gave bigger discounts than Airbus, they could lost the value battle too.
 
WAH64D
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:11 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 19):
I can tell you who the real winner is: the real winners are the airlines.

100% correct. Both companies did exceptionally well and congratulations to them for doing so.
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
Toulouse
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:12 am

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 14):
shouldn't be too proud of that

Why not? Dropping down to the same "childish" levels you're criticising.

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 16):
You are the only one to talk about pride, and you are the one childish enough to say it's "only" for A320 as if it was a shame to sell narrowbodies.
I know it's hard for you to admit finally that Airbus planes are also selling well.

Couldn't agree more Sebolino!

Anyway, I agree with Sebolino, it is a bit amusing to read this thread now. But in the end, who cares?? Great year for both Airbus and Boeing.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
A319XFW
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 21):
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 19):
I can tell you who the real winner is: the real winners are the airlines.

100% correct. Both companies did exceptionally well and congratulations to them for doing so.

Winners are also the suppliers who supply both OEM's with parts.....
 
787engineer
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 20):
Wrong. Boeing could won in total value, or could lost in total value. Total values are calculated on price list, and we know that means almost nothing. If Boeing gave bigger discounts than Airbus, they could lost the value battle too.

Actually as far as total value goes Boeing did win, since total value is what the planes are "worth", and we can really only base that on the list price of the plane. Total value would probably be best calculated from the cost to build the airplane, but that's pretty heavily guarded information. But you do bring up a good point that "profits/revenue" may be higher or lower depending on what discounts were given. After typing this up I feel like i'm simply calling you out on a technicality  embarrassed .
 
AvObserver
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:49 am

I congratulate Airbus where it's due and the A320 family is the undisputed preferred single-aisle transport. However, overall, Boeing is the 2005 orders booked winner owing to the higher dollar value of its order total. Quote from the Business Week Online article in another thread:

"While the Toulouse (France)-based company sold more planes than Boeing last year, the dollar value of Boeing's order book was considerably higher -- $105.9 billion vs. $95.9 billion for Airbus."

Though Airbus has bragging rights for sheer numbers of airplanes sold, Boeing's orders were worth $10 billion more, making BCA the year's true winner, although Airbus could hardly be considered a loser, either. Although Airbus has a weak major product in the A340 line, Boeing must also see that the 737NG is increasingly undermined by the A320 family success, despite competitive performance. I attribute this partly to lack of commonality with BCA wide-bodies, something growth-minded LCCs likely prefer (in the A320) and also probably that Boeing is still less aggressive than Airbus in doing lower-margin deals. Although the 737NG is still doing exceptionally well, Boeing needs to begin work now on its successor.
 
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N328KF
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 23):
Winners are also the suppliers who supply both OEM's with parts.....

I liken this to IBM's policy to the video game manufacturers.

"When in doubt, back all players." So no matter whether Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo does better, the real winner is IBM. There are cases like that, here, too. CFM is a great example—while they don't have a monopoly on the A320 series, their dominance there in addition to 737 exclusivity gives them a good position.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
DavidT
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:17 am

While being a Brit, and a big fan of the A320 series, I'm more partial to Boeing here. I'm not entirely sure how their figure of 1049 (incl cancellations, like boeing's 1002 including cancellations) came about. On Jan 1st Airbus had only announced 800-odd orders.

I know the key here is "announced" but I'm not inclined to believe that Airbus would deliberately not announce orders completed late in the year, and only announce them Jan 17, especially as annoucing those orders would have put them ahead in time for 1st January anyway.

Personally I think a little back dating has gone on.  duck  But hey, that's just me.


btw - anybody know the final breakdown of airbus' total? Just how many of those were A320s? Big grin
 
anxebla
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:31 am

Although 2005 was the best year in the Boeing History, Airbus won again in aircraft ordered.

Anyhow, I think Airbus is depending on their narrow bodies to obtain new orders ...too much. They can feel happy but also they must be careful. On the other hand, Boeing is enjoying because their best year in these last 15 years.
AIRBUS 320 The world's most advanced single-aisle aircraft
 
aileron11
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:10 pm

This was in the paper today AirBus, Boeing orders.
Airbus sneaks past Boeing in 11th hour
By Roger Yu, USA TODAY
Strong year-end sales allowed Europe's Airbus to close 2005 as the global commercial airplane market leader.

Airbus is reviewing the A340 after it won only 15 orders as of Nov. 30.
Christophe Ena, AP

A December sales surge boosted Toulouse, France-based Airbus to 1,055 net orders for the year. The earlier-announced yearly total for archrival Boeing: 1,002.

The figures confirm what has been anticipated for months: the best year ever for the world's two builders of large airliners. The companies' combined orders of 2,057 handily beat the 1,631 net orders received in 1989. Net orders account for cancellations.


1,055 Airbus orders
In 2005, Airbus recorded 1,055 net plane orders.
Aircraft Orders
A-320 918
A-330/A-340/A-350 166
A-380 20
A-300 7
Cancellations 56
Source: Airbus
1,002 Boeing orders
In 2005, Boeing recorded 1,002 net plane orders.
Aircraft Orders
737 569
747 43
767 15
777 154
787 235
Cancellations 14
Source: Boeing



The plane makers achieved their record-breaking year largely because of rapidly expanding aviation markets in Asia. China, for example, bought 150 single-aisle A-320 models during a visit to Paris in December by Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao.

Airlines, said Airbus CEO Gustav Humbert, "have never ... placed so many orders, a sign that they are very optimistic about the future of air transportation."

That Airbus took the lead in orders comes as a surprise, because Chicago-based Boeing had the lead at the end of November, says Paul Nisbet, an analyst at JSA Research. After four years of trailing in orders, Boeing appeared poised to finally surpass Airbus in 2005.

Nisbet said he hadn't expected Airbus to book in 2005 the big Chinese government order last month. Boeing received a similar government order last fall for 150 planes but doesn't consider them firm until individual Chinese airlines sign contracts and pay deposits, says Boeing executive Randy Baseler. Boeing counted only 50 of the planes from the China order in its 2005 tally.

As expected, Airbus trumped Boeing for the third year in a row in the number of planes delivered to customers in 2005, an important figure because sales revenue is booked on delivery. Airbus delivered 378 planes, vs. 290 for Boeing. A Boeing factory-worker strike last September halted production for much of the month and slowed deliveries.

But Boeing outperformed Airbus in another key gauge of performance — the value of orders. Boeing sold more wide-body planes, which are more expensive than single-aisle models. Boeing sold 447 wide-body jets last year. Airbus took in 193 orders for wide-bodies.

The long-range, fuel-efficient Boeing 787 Dreamliner, viewed by Boeing as its future, far outsold the comparable class of Airbus planes. And airline customers were drawn to Boeing's 777 because it is more fuel-efficient than the A-340, its Airbus counterpart, Nisbet says.

Boeing's Baseler says 2005 was a special year and that a 1,000-plus level of orders is not sustainable. But with finances of U.S. airlines seeming to improve, and larger European carriers poised to order more planes in 2006, the companies should still book a healthy number of orders, he says.
Jersey Lou
 
WAH64D
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:56 pm

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 25):
Boeing's orders were worth $10 billion more, making BCA the year's true winner, although Airbus could hardly be considered a loser, either

We will probably never know who was the true revenue winner. $10 Billion more in sales means nothing if your overheads are $20b higher than the competition's.
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
Jet-lagged
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:05 pm

Overall, Boeing 'won' the orders game
Total airframes - Airbus
Hard orders - Boeing
Total (list) value - Boeing
Major wins at major airlines - Boeing

Airbus won the deliveries no question, which is more important to both as businesses.

Actually, net contract value of aircraft delivered, and profit from aircraft delivered, is what really matters. But we are not privy to those numbers!
 
zvezda
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:10 pm

It seems the 1055 to 1002 comparison is an apples to oranges comparison due to different counting methodologies regarding China orders. If one applies either the Airbus methodology or the Boeing methodology to both manufacturers equally, then Boeing sold more airliners in 2005 -- 1102 to 1055 (Airbus methodology) or 1002 to 905 (Boeing methodology).

Anyway, a fabulous year for both Airbus and Boeing.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:30 pm

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 30):
We will probably never know who was the true revenue winner. $10 Billion more in sales means nothing if your overheads are $20b higher than the competition's.

Revenue has nothing to do with overhead costs.

Cheers
 
trex8
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:37 pm

manufacturing costs is probably a more appropriate term here
 
ElGreco
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RE: 2005 Orders, Who Won? Airbus Or Boeing?

Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:10 am

Quoting ElGreco (Thread starter):
I heard this morning from Airbus that they have little bit more orders (which ones exactly?) than Boeing in 2005, not in value of course but in number of plane.

Not to restart again a battle A vs B, (or just a little bit, because it's favorite game of some here!!!) but just to close this item.



Good Morning West coast,

Every time you need information 2 Weeks in advance, call "ElGreco"

So congratulation again to Boeing, I consider their reorganization have created a big events:

- Airlines are know obliged to replaced all their old planes.

- they launch a new historical period before and after B787 (as it was before and after DC3 and B707),

- they force Airbus to react,

Congratulation to Airbus to be able to stay at first place one year more, and especially for the biggest events of 2005, the first flight of A380, the new Sky King.

Congratulation to all subcontracting companies of A and/or B (I'm working for one of them) to permit every days that's happen.

 champagne   champagne   champagne   champagne   champagne 
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