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Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:28 pm

Following on from Airbus Questions Composite Safety? (by Dougloid Jan 3 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Boeing is reassuring airlines over the use of composite material for the primary structure of the 787 following claims by Airbus that the new Boeing twinjet could be grounded “because of a scratch in the paint”.

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...afety+claims+infuriate+Boeing.html

[Edited 2006-01-05 12:37:26]
 
Scorpio
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe

Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:31 pm

Does anyone do a search here anymore these days before they start a thread?
Airbus Questions Composite Safety? (by Dougloid Jan 3 2006 in Civil Aviation)
 
777ER
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe

Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:33 pm

Changed the thread to part 2, as the original thread took close to 5 minutes to load

[Edited 2006-01-05 12:38:23]
 
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:54 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 1):
Does anyone do a search here anymore these days before they start a thread?

Scorpio you raise a valid point but as 777ER states;

Quoting 777ER (Reply 2):
Changed the thread to part 2, as the original thread took close to 5 minutes to load

Not every user has the latest technology or the best internet connections. To his credit he provided the link to the original post and article. 777ER has had this problem before, amongst others, and the moderators have assisted him and other forum members in his situation.

I have seen this in the past and the discussion continue in the way the Moderators wish as after 140 plus replies the real technical issues are being discussed in earnest and we learn even more.

My  twocents 

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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:51 pm

I dunno about this 787. In some article I read that they want to build the fuselage parts out of composits and glue them together with some sort of resin. Reminded me of my scale models, but didn't sound right for a real aircraft. Anyway, Airbus has a lot of experience with composites, there must be a reason why half of the so-called advanced materials of the A350 are going to be AL, instead of composites.
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:55 pm

Ah, so just because Airbus has experience with comps everything they say about it is gospel?
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:00 pm

Come on ... first can we have the exact sentence used by Airbus ?
Because it seems they didn't say at all that composites are unsafe (which would be rather strange and even stupid), but thay said something about the maintenance certification ... All we have is the reaction of Boeing, but not the "action".
 
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:02 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 5):
Ah, so just because Airbus has experience with comps everything they say about it is gospel?

No, but since they have experience and do it in a different way, I feel my own doubts strengthened.
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:06 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 4):
Reminded me of my scale models, but didn't sound right for a real aircraft. Anyway, Airbus has a lot of experience with composites, there must be a reason why half of the so-called advanced materials of the A350 are going to be AL, instead of composites.

As the A350 exists, it will enter service two years after the 787. If they were to try to match or beat the 787, the EIS would be pushed backed even further. In the meantime, it would leave the B787 the entire market...so they had to make a decision.
 
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:10 pm

Boeing also didn't like bigger planes than 747-400 but is building 747-8 to counter A380.
It is only a matter of time and all planes will be composite
 
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 4):
there must be a reason why half of the so-called advanced materials of the A350 are going to be AL, instead of composites.

Because you cannot simply re engineer an old metal fuselage with composites, you'd have to more or less start from scratch, and that would cost time and money, neither of which Airbus has in the figures that would be needed

Its not as simple as just swapping a metal skin for a composite one. Far far from it.

Long story short, A350 is a modification, 787 all new.
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:44 pm

Quoting 777ER (Thread starter):
Boeing is reassuring airlines over the use of composite material for the primary structure of the 787 following claims by Airbus that the new Boeing twinjet could be grounded “because of a scratch in the paint”.

Read...The 787 is kicking our butts. We can't argue technical merit, so we'll just start making things up.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 7):
No, but since they have experience and do it in a different way, I feel my own doubts strengthened.

And so does Boeing:

A little dated -

http://www.boeing.com/news/feature/concept/photok62055.html

This isn't GLARE, which Airbus is most familiar with.

[Edited 2006-01-05 14:48:56]
 
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:51 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 7):
No, but since they have experience and do it in a different way, I feel my own doubts strengthened.

Yes they do have experience. Boeing has experience since they have been manufacturing military aircraft from composite structures since about 1976. You do not hear or see these aircraft falling out of the sky because they fell apart, do you? No. They are required to withstand g forces far greater and much more demanding than any civilian airliner.

And if Airbus says the A-300 tail fell off the AA plane due to composite failure, they make themselves legally liable for the crash and subject themsselves to a huge lawsuit.

I must therefore conclude that this is a bunch of Boeing bashing because of the success of the 787 program. Airbus is mad and will say anything to defeat this airplane in the market.....
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:11 pm

I said this in part I : Boeing has far more experience regarding composites than we are awear of . Boeing has been working on the 787 manufacturing process for the past 10 years !!!
Airbus Questions Composite Safety? (by Dougloid Jan 3 2006 in Civil Aviation)

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there is a classified Boeing aircraft the size of the 787 with a composite fuse. flying as we speak .

For Boeing to have this much confidence in composites , it leads me to believe they have far more experiance in this field then thay are able to actknowledge . Lets not forget that Boeing has been around far longer than Airbus ! And Boeing is one of many US aircraft manufacturers that are in the Vanguard regarding extremely advanced classified aircraft .

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2002/q4/nr_021018m.html


Boeing Unveils Bird of Prey Stealth Technology Demonstrator

ST. LOUIS, Oct. 18, 2002 -- Boeing [NYSE: BA] today unveiled the "Bird of Prey," a technology demonstrator that pioneered breakthrough low-observable technologies and revolutionized aircraft design, development and production. The once highly classified project ran from 1992 through 1999, and was revealed because the technologies and capabilities developed have become industry standards, and it is no longer necessary to conceal the aircraft's existence.

In addition to proving many new stealth concepts, the Bird of Prey program demonstrated innovative rapid prototyping techniques. Developed by the Boeing Phantom Works advanced research-and-development organization, the Bird of Prey was among the first to initiate the use of large, single-piece composite structures; low-cost, disposable tooling; and 3-D virtual reality design and assembly processes to ensure the aircraft was affordable to build as well as high-performing.

Halibut
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 12):
Yes they do have experience. Boeing has experience since they have been manufacturing military aircraft from composite structures since about 1976. You do not hear or see these aircraft falling out of the sky because they fell apart, do you? No. They are required to withstand g forces far greater and much more demanding than any civilian airliner.

And if Airbus says the A-300 tail fell off the AA plane due to composite failure, they make themselves legally liable for the crash and subject themsselves to a huge lawsuit.

I must therefore conclude that this is a bunch of Boeing bashing because of the success of the 787 program. Airbus is mad and will say anything to defeat this airplane in the market.....

What strikes me as funny about Airbus' latest attack on Boeing is that in a December issue of AW&ST, they had a five page ad touting the A350, and on one of the pages, they were gushing about the technological advances of the aircraft and its use of composites.

I guess composites are only OK if Airbus uses them, right?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:14 pm

And I'm sure the Japanese have no idea how to build anything either, being so "lo tech" themselves.......  sarcastic 
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:18 pm

Quoting Halibut (Reply 13):
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there is a classified Boeing aircraft the size of the 787 with a composite fuse. flying as we speak .

That might be a bit much...
 
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:29 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 6):
Come on ... first can we have the exact sentence used by Airbus ?
Because it seems they didn't say at all that composites are unsafe (which would be rather strange and even stupid), but thay said something about the maintenance certification ... All we have is the reaction of Boeing, but not the "action".

That's exactly what I have been trying to find out Sebolino. I asked a pal of mine who's a well connected structures DER to direct me to the proceedings of the "safety conference". Here's his answer regarding the Guy Norris article.

I could not locate one. There are many “safety conferences” of many agendas and topics...some useful and others more abstract. The fact that Flight Intl did not specify the actual conference leads me to suspect that there is some 3rd person hearsay embedded into the story of the Flight Intl reporter is plain lazy in reporting the facts of the story.

I tried emailing Guy Norris at Flight International with every combination email address combo I could think of and they all bounced. He IS a well respected av reporter.

I'd suggest that the assembled multitude stop beating each other over the heads long enough to get on Norris' trail and get some information about this "safety conference".
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 17):
Does anyone here read the text of a post before they open their pie hole?

Yes, and Scorpio did so when writing his post. See the "edited" mark in the original post? The first thread was renamed to part 2 after Scorpio made his comment.

So, you might want to rephrase your comment about opening the pie hole  Yeah sure


Best regards,
Fabian/PositiveClimb Big grin
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Dougloid
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:39 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 1):
Scorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 2880 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted Thu Jan 5 2006 12:31:08 UTC+1 and read 681 times:


Does anyone do a search here anymore these days before they start a thread?

Airbus Questions Composite Safety? (by Dougloid Jan 3 2006 in Civil Aviation)

There's the entire quote sans any reference to editing. It ain't there.

Quoting PositiveClimb (Reply 19):
So, you might want to rephrase your comment about opening the pie hole

Nope. Original question still stands.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:42 pm

I'm baffled that that the two main aircraft builders now publically start disputes over safety issues. In the long term that helps neither Boeing nor Airbus let alone airlines who already have to deal with people who are afraid of flying.
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 4):
I dunno about this 787. In some article I read that they want to build the fuselage parts out of composits and glue them together with some sort of resin. Reminded me of my scale models, but didn't sound right for a real aircraft.

That's like saying aluminum aircraft aren't real aircraft because they use aluminum to make beer cans.
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:48 pm

Considering that, as of today, Boeing currently has 291 787s on firm order, this seems to be very much a 'non-issue'.

My own feeling is that it doesn't matter which material you use, provided that you design the aeroplane properly, and test all the components exhaustively. I spent (or misspent) part of my youth messing about in aeroplanes that were covered in doped linen fabric, and never had a moment's fear of any of the things collapsing and falling out of the air. At that time, the most celebrated and successful warplane in recent memory - the Mosquito - was still noted for having been built out of plywood and balsa-wood, as were the best-selling jet fighters of the time, Vampires and Venoms........

Boeing has engineers and the airlines have engineers, and they will have corresponded in detail about every aspect of design and materials before each and every order was placed. If the airlines had any doubts about the ability of the 787 to stand up to the rigours of day-to-day airline service - leave alone any doubts about safety - they simply would not have ordered it in such numbers.
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 20):

There's the entire quote sans any reference to editing. It ain't there.

???
Maybe I wasn't clear enough?

What I wanted to say is that Scorpio's comment was made at the time when the original thread title didn't include the part 2-remark. So he stated (maybe not very polite, but correct IMHO) that a search should have returned your "original" thread.
Subsequently, the original poster of this thread changed the title to ...(part 2) as your "original" thread got too long. He even stated doing so in his post

Quoting 777ER (Reply 2):
Changed the thread to part 2, as the original thread took close to 5 minutes to load

which is completely okay. Therefore the comment Scorpio made seems a little out of context - but it wasn't at the time it was written.

Hope I answered your question? If your last post wasn't directed at me, then just forget what you just have read Big grin

Best regards,
Fabian/PositiveClimb Big grin
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Halibut
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 16):
That might be a bit much...

So I did do too many Bong hits !  cloudnine 

Seriously ,it's just a hunch . However , Boeing have in fact been working on a very similar manufacturing process since the mid to early 90's that is being used on the 787 !

Rememeber , the US military stealth bombers were not releasted to the public some 10 years after the aircraft originally flew .

Boeing's defence/military sector is far larger than there commerial sector .

Halibut
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Sinlock
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:58 am

Every material has it's risks Li-Alu, Composites, GLAIR. Boeing will make it work as it should just like every company that tries a new technology.

I don't recall to many people here going ape S--- when Airbus announced that the A318 would use Friction Stir Welding on a control surface. FSW at the time had never been used in aviation. And the 318 seems to to doing fine so far, and Eclipse Aviation is now using FSW in large numbers.
 
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 12):
Yes they do have experience. Boeing has experience since they have been manufacturing military aircraft from composite structures since about 1976.

You can't really compare the composite work on military aircraft to that on large airliners (perhaps only the B2 might compare). For a spar on a airliner we're talking 20-odd metres whereas on a military aircraft it's much smaller.
Heck, even the A400M composite wing doesn't compare in size with one on the 787 or A350 size.

what I don't understand is this quote:

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...afety+claims+infuriate+Boeing.html

Quote:
says 787 chief mechanic Justin Hale. “We all know composites can hide damage and so right up front we decided we’d certify for visible damage only,” he says.

So he's saying that he knows that composites can hide damage but still is only going for visual inspection? Or am I missing something here or he's been mis-quoted?
 
Dougloid
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting PositiveClimb (Reply 24):
Maybe I wasn't clear enough?

What I wanted to say is that Scorpio's comment was made at the time when the original thread title didn't include the part 2-remark. So he stated (maybe not very polite, but correct IMHO) that a search should have returned your "original" thread.
Subsequently, the original poster of this thread changed the title to ...(part 2) as your "original" thread got too long. He even stated doing so in his post

Quoting 777ER (Reply 2):
Changed the thread to part 2, as the original thread took close to 5 minutes to load


which is completely okay. Therefore the comment Scorpio made seems a little out of context - but it wasn't at the time it was written.

Hope I answered your question? If your last post wasn't directed at me, then just forget what you just have read

Best regards,
Fabian/PositiveClimb

Right....but you assume that the editing to the first post has anything to do with the O/P's second post. I did not make that assumption.

I saw the time differential. Maybe it's a reason but a reason is not the same as an excuse.

I still stand by my original proposition. Skorpio was being a snot and I called him on it.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Dougloid
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 26):
OK, maybe Boeing should just make their Trabant-style plane and prove that resin glued plastic can be as stable as laser-beam-welded AL.

OK, maybe Airbus ought to take their Trabant-style center section on their A380 and the wings on their A350 and prove that resin glued plastic can be as stable as laser-beam welded Al. Or cast iron. Or reinforced concrete fer Crissakes.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 18):
Quoting Sebolino (Reply 6):
Come on ... first can we have the exact sentence used by Airbus ?
Because it seems they didn't say at all that composites are unsafe (which would be rather strange and even stupid), but thay said something about the maintenance certification ... All we have is the reaction of Boeing, but not the "action".

That's exactly what I have been trying to find out Sebolino. I asked a pal of mine who's a well connected structures DER to direct me to the proceedings of the "safety conference". Here's his answer regarding the Guy Norris article.

I could not locate one. There are many “safety conferences” of many agendas and topics...some useful and others more abstract. The fact that Flight Intl did not specify the actual conference leads me to suspect that there is some 3rd person hearsay embedded into the story of the Flight Intl reporter is plain lazy in reporting the facts of the story.

I tried emailing Guy Norris at Flight International with every combination email address combo I could think of and they all bounced. He IS a well respected av reporter.

I'd suggest that the assembled multitude stop beating each other over the heads long enough to get on Norris' trail and get some information about this "safety conference".

Come on people, dig out the info. Is this a bitching society or are there some people who can dig out the relevant information? I'm beginning to think it's the former.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
I'm baffled that that the two main aircraft builders now publically start disputes over safety issues. In the long term that helps neither Boeing nor Airbus let alone airlines who already have to deal with people who are afraid of flying.

The above is very true and I see this attack by Airbus shows how desperate they have become at the sales annihilation of the 787.

Thay say attack is the best means of defence but i read into this that if Boeing get this right then A really will have problems trying to catch the 787 with the A350.

There is always the chance Boeing can get it wrong but then there are many many years experience in the military side with composites.

This could be the dumbest or the most brilliant thing Boeing have done and I suspect the latter.

This is sour grapes from Airbus who have sunk to a new low is questioning B's aircraft safety and if Boeing get it right they will look awfully stupid.

Time will tell  wink 
 
jacobin777
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 4):
I dunno about this 787. In some article I read that they want to build the fuselage parts out of composits and glue them together with some sort of resin. Reminded me of my scale models, but didn't sound right for a real aircraft. Anyway, Airbus has a lot of experience with composites, there must be a reason why half of the so-called advanced materials of the A350 are going to be AL, instead of composites.

well Thorben, since you know what kind of airplane you are going to sit on at the time of your flight, avoid the flights which offer the 787..that would calm your fears/concerns.. Wink
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DAYflyer
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:14 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 27):
Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 12):
Yes they do have experience. Boeing has experience since they have been manufacturing military aircraft from composite structures since about 1976.

You can't really compare the composite work on military aircraft to that on large airliners (perhaps only the B2 might compare). For a spar on a airliner we're talking 20-odd metres whereas on a military aircraft it's much smaller.
Heck, even the A400M composite wing doesn't compare in size with one on the 787 or A350 size.

I beg to differ since the stealth bomber has a substanially larger wing.
One Nation Under God
 
PPVRA
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 4):
I dunno about this 787. In some article I read that they want to build the fuselage parts out of composits and glue them together with some sort of resin. Reminded me of my scale models, but didn't sound right for a real aircraft.

It's not like that from what I know. The resin encompasses the entire frame, and the fibers are "soaked" in it as well. You won't see wings falling off because they got unglued, lol.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 29):
Trabant-style



Morale blow right there, lol!

Cheers

[Edited 2006-01-05 19:23:27]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
katekebo
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:42 am

Answering A319XFW question on:

Quote:
says 787 chief mechanic Justin Hale. “We all know composites can hide damage and so right up front we decided we’d certify for visible damage only,” he says.

This means that the design will have enough safety factor / reserve in it so that microscopic / invisible failures will not compromise structural integrity / safety within certification limits. In other words, a damage significant enough to require attention / repairs to restore structural strength as per ceritication requirement must be big enough to be visually detectable.

Let me try to illustrate it with an example - let's say that certain part will be certified to withstand +2.5g @ 1.5 SF (for the sake of this example only, I don't know what actual certification criteria will be used). What Justin Hale says is that this part will actually be designed and built to withstand a significantly higher stress than certification requirements, so that even if "hidden" damage (not big enough to be detectable by visual inspection) is present, the part will still meet the certification criteria. Only damage big enough to be detectable by visual inspection will compromise structural integrity to a point that it may no longer meet certification criteria and will require a repair.

In essence, given the relative novelty of the technology and relatively limited experience with fully composite airplanes, Boeing is taking a rather conservative approach. They could have chosen a more aggressive approach (and make the airplane lighter), at the expense of more sophisticated inspection methods.
 
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 32):
I beg to differ since the stealth bomber has a substanially larger wing.

About the span of a KC-10, I'd say!

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b2_89afe101.jpg

But that's Northrop and not Boeing Big grin

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 34):

Thanks for the explanation!
 
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:16 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
I'm baffled that that the two main aircraft builders now publically start disputes over safety issues. In the long term that helps neither Boeing nor Airbus let alone airlines who already have to deal with people who are afraid of flying.

When has Boeing done this in recent memory? Both of the recent incidents cited here were from Airbus.

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 35):
But that's Northrop and not Boeing

Boeing did a major proportion of the B-2.
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ikramerica
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:19 am

Airbus walks a fine line when it deals with this, and frankly, if pulled over for a sobriety test, I think they fail miserably.

http://www.airbus.com/en/myairbus/ai...view/technological_leadership.html

I love how they are the arbiter of what should be "groundbreaking" and what is only allowed to be developed in an "evolutionary" way.

Seems they use a lot of composites on their aircrafts, in places that are hard to check and are structurally vital, but then decide it makes sense to question the safety of using more advanced composites on the 787.

Smacks of desperation, since the 787 is at or near break even 2 years before EIS...
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moparman
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 7):
No, but since they have experience and do it in a different way, I feel my own doubts strengthened.

So is mine. The view that Airbus is doing everything they possibly can to try to deminish the B787. Airbus used to shout "technology", now it seems that Boeing as blindsided them. Now they are whining with the absurd composite failures.

Does anyone here, with the exception of the dried-in-the-wool Airbus diehards, honestly believe that Boeing would manufacture an aircraft which will (according to Airbus) fall apart because of materials used? I certainly think not. The bottom line is indeed:

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 30):
The above is very true and I see this attack by Airbus shows how desperate they have become at the sales annihilation of the 787.

and

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 11):
Read...The 787 is kicking our butts. We can't argue technical merit, so we'll just start making things up.

Quite right. The Boeing 787 is like a blowtorch in Airbus' side. It seems to me that this Airbus misinformation blitz is sheer desperation of finally seeing that they cannot continue to shout that they are the "technology leader". That is all. Besides, like I said before: these statements are not aimed at the airlines, but at the flying public.
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Stratofortress
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:28 am

This move by Airbus can be summarized as following:

Verzweiflung
Désespérance
Desespero
Desperation

They need to quit moaning, get some more government hand outs, and build a new plane.

All right, seriously though, this thread is getting silly.
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wingman
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:34 am

But where is the actual text showing this "attack". No one seems able to confirm this one way or another and it's quite possible that Boeing is responding to "reports" by the press saying Airbus is making claims about the 787's safety. The knee jerk responses here reming me of the miner's story in West Virginia.

And a comment from a layman: if composites are inherently more susceptible to "bumps" and "dings" from sleeping half-wits driving fuel trucks and baggage carts then why not invest in some type of perimiter safety area around the plane? Obviously we have different ops vehicles in operation around the world but I can't possibly see how an airline would not be able to quickly and cheaply place wheel blocks at key areas around the plane to avoid these accidents. Perhaps this has never been done because of the nature of fuselage material today. You just let people drive willy nilly all over the apron knowing that any bumps or dings will be easily noted and repaired. Perhaps it is time to devise stronger safety and preventive measures in the apron area.
 
planemaker
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:34 am

Quoting Halibut (Reply 25):
Seriously ,it's just a hunch . However , Boeing have in fact been working on a very similar manufacturing process since the mid to early 90's that is being used on the 787 !

Boeing is not the civil pioneer in composite use. Obviously different scale but same process, (Beech) Raytheon started the design and build of 100% composite fuselages by winding composite tape around a mandrel followed by autoclave curing a long time ago... 1979. They are the true civil composite pioneers... over 25 years ago.
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N328KF
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 41):
Boeing is not the civil pioneer in composite use. Obviously different scale but same process, (Beech) Raytheon started the design and build of 100% composite fuselages by winding composite tape around a mandrel followed by autoclave curing a long time ago... 1979. They are the true civil composite pioneers... over 25 years ago.

I think you misspelled "Burt Rutan."
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
ikramerica
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 40):
And a comment from a layman: if composites are inherently more susceptible to "bumps" and "dings" from sleeping half-wits driving fuel trucks and baggage carts then why not invest in some type of perimiter safety area around the plane?

well, they aren't, which is part of the point. they are less susceptible. minor bumps are more likely to "bounce off" with not even a paint scrape. But what is trying to be claimed, which is not a proven problem, is that such minor bumps will lead to hidden failures of the catastrophic kind.
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A319XFW
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 36):
Boeing did a major proportion of the B-2.

I stand corrected:

From:

http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/b2.html

Quote:
As part of an industry team led by Northrop, Boeing built the outboard portion of the B-2 stealth bomber wing, the aft center fuselage section, landing gears, fuel system and weapons delivery system.

How does the technology transfer go from the military side to the civilian side though? A colleague once went to the fuel system supplier of the B2 and they couldn't even tell how many tanks it's got!
So how would people without the right security clearance or non-US nationals be allowed to know about how the B2 was designed/made? Or is it a case of "You don't need to know where this came from!" Big grin
 
L-188
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 34):
“We all know composites can hide damage and so right up front we decided we’d certify for visible damage only,”

Beech did the same thing for the Starship.

Which means that you end up with one hell of an overbuilt structure.
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AirEMS
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:22 am

Doesn't Airbus use composite tails and that was thought to be the cause of the crash shortly after 9/11?



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N328KF
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 43):
well, they aren't, which is part of the point. they are less susceptible. minor bumps are more likely to "bounce off" with not even a paint scrape. But what is trying to be claimed, which is not a proven problem, is that such minor bumps will lead to hidden failures of the catastrophic kind.

How often do we hear of composite fighters going in for major repairs due to shunt-and-bumps on the ramp? Not very often, so far as I can tell.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
planemaker
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 42):
I think you misspelled "Burt Rutan."

And just what does Burt Rutan have to do with developing the manufacturing process of the commercial production of composite aircraft... more specifically, with Beechcraft/Raytheon building all-composite fuselages by computer controled automated winding of composites around a mandrel, the process that the 787 employs.

Nothing!!
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Halibut
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 41):
Boeing is not the civil pioneer in composite use. Obviously different scale but same process, (Beech) Raytheon started the design and build of 100% composite fuselages by winding composite tape around a mandrel followed by autoclave curing a long time ago... 1979. They are the true civil composite pioneers... over 25 years ago.

Never said they were . What I did say was :

Quoting Halibut (Reply 13):
I said this in part I : Boeing has far more experience regarding composites than we are awear of . Boeing has been working on the 787 manufacturing process for the past 10 years !!!

I was refering the there manufacturing process . Boeing annouced the composite 787 , 2 - 3 years ago . However , what I am trying to bring to light is that Boeing may have addressed these concerns regarding Composites some time ago , since they in fact may have more experience than we are to believe .

Beech) Raytheon is a very impressive copmany which has been around since the 1930's , just like Boeing . However , Boeing is a signifcantly larger company which deals in commercial , military/defence as well as space " rockets " !

Yes , Beech Raytheon may have pioneered composite aircraft " smaller business jets " some time ago . However , now it appears Boeing will pioneer composites on a much larger scale , in the commercial sector ! I am trying to show that Boeing have been working on this process & planning going to composite for quite some time !!! Hence there confidence in composites !

Halibut
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whitehatter
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RE: Airbus Says B787 Composite Unsafe (part 2)

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting Stratofortress (Reply 39):
This move by Airbus can be summarized as following:

Verzweiflung
Désespérance
Desespero
Desperation

and most of the replies here are blatant cheerleading.

Why can none of you actually discuss the issues, instead of blasting off with a Karl Rove inspired dose of focus switching? There are VERY real issues here, namely that the 787 represents a huge gamble by Boeing on composites. Stealth bombers and fighters are NOT airliners, which take poundings day after day. Neither are they the same shape or size.

Not a single one of you has access to Boeing contracts either. Just how much do they stand to lose if testing throws up faulty design? Just how widespread are the problems Geoff Dixon alluded to with manufacturing processes? Cheerleading the 'Boeing is better' line won't work as this is completely new ground and nobody can be said to be better at composite airliners, because nobody has ever built one!

Airbus make valid points regarding the percentages and location of composite structures. But unfortunately the average reply here is of the usual bash-Airbus-at-all-costs variety. It would be a shame if they are proven right, and Boeing takes a severe hit when their rush to plastic shows up severe limitations (such as repair and return to base scenarios for damaged aircraft).

It's also very revealing that the same cheerleaders who laud Boeing for 'conservative' practices then scream abuse at Airbus when they make a statement in the same vein....
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