PanAm747
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Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:09 am

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060105/...p_on_re_us/terror_list_preschooler

Of all the things I have seen/heard/experienced with TSA, this is a new low. We all know small children can be terrors, but being on the no fly list? If that isn't the definition of ignorance, I don't know what would be.

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ikramerica
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:11 am

It's called an error. You never make them, I assume.
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n844aa
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
It's called an error. You never make them, I assume.

The problem is the number of errors that have occured during the formulation of the no-fly list. Even more troubling than the raw number of errors is the incidence of false positives, which eventually drowns out in a sea of noise the real people we should be concerned about. Basically my point is that an error-prone no fly list is probably worse than not having one at all.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
ikramerica
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:17 am

Some examples of your errors:

he's 4, not 2.

TSA never denied him boarding, it was the stupid AIRLINES who were giving him a hard time. The TSA does not think children are threats, and it is not in their policy to even question a child.

In fact, the TSA does not deny boarding to children ever due to watch list hits:

"TSA regional spokeswoman Carrie Harmon said the agency tells airlines not to deny boarding to children under 12 or select them for extra security checks even if their names match ones on the list."

It's from the article.

You have an anti-TSA agenda it would seem.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting N844AA (Reply 2):
Even more troubling than the raw number of errors is the incidence of false positives, which eventually drowns out in a sea of noise the real people we should be concerned about.

No it doesn't. if it did, then this kid would not have been hassled. the fact that he was hassled shows that the airlines are still taking it very seriously and putting people through questions. one major point of any screening is to question people in hopes they slip up.

of course, they should not have harassed a child, and as the article says, the TSA did not require them to do so and in fact tells them NOT TO DO SO.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
L-188
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:22 am

All a baby has to do is drop a bomb in his/her knappy, and you have a chemical weapon on the airplane.
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n844aa
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
No it doesn't. if it did, then this kid would not have been hassled. the fact that he was hassled shows that the airlines are still taking it very seriously and putting people through questions. one major point of any screening is to question people in hopes they slip up.

You make a good point, but the problem is with the very premise of the no-fly list; it's just not an effective approach to airline security.

Everything I've read about the no-fly list indicates that it operates (at least in the initial stages) on the basis of name alone, or at least heavily weighted on the basis of name. Look at the names of people in the article who have had trouble with the list: Edward Allen, John Lewis, David Nelson, Edward Kennedy. I would bet a large sum of money that the number of people with those names alone exceeds by at least an order of magnitude the number of people who might pose a risk to commercial aviation.

Look at it this way: let's say there's a highly infectious fatal disease that occurs at a rate of 0.1%. So you really, really want to catch people who have this disease. So you spend a lot of money and several years to devise a test that can detect this disease with 99% accuracy. With great fanfare, you roll out the test into a city of 1,000,000 people. In that group of people, 1,000 people have the disease. 990 will be correctly informed that they have it. (Never mind the 10 people who have it but are told they do not.) But most troublingly, 10,000 healthy people will be incorrectly informed that they do have this disease! Imagine all the resources that will go to treat those people, or quarantine them, or whatever, when they could be better deployed on a subpopulation less than a ten of the size.

That's my problem with the no-fly list -- it's so error-prone as to be virtually useless. If there are additional problems in the way the airlines apply it, that just bolsters my point. If we want to make an Israel-style commitment to aviation security, then let's have a national conversation about it and do it if that's what the consensus answer is. But otherwise, it's mere window-dressing wasting resources that could be better expended in addressing terrorism.
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Lemurs
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:41 am

That's the compromises we make to avoid profiling. Israel has a far more sane and secure method of ensuring safety of their passengers, but it requires profiling and extra long checks at the airport. They're generally more than happy to put up with the imposition on their personal freedoms to ensure their safety. American's generally aren't. They want to be secure but not inconvenienced in any way. After all, it's the Other Guy who is the problem, not you!

I'm not saying either way is right, it's just that the compromise solution is not very good. The pre-screening system that some private companies are setting up is pretty nice though.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Thread starter):
Of all the things I have seen/heard/experienced with TSA, this is a new low

Did you read the same article that we did? What did TSA do wrong from your viewpoint? I'm confused by your reaction.
 
jcavinato
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:01 am

Our daughter's fiance gets super-deep searching on every flight. His name is Jeffrey Martin. He is American as apple pie. Not a cranky bone in him. Only been out of the country once in his life (a tour with our daughter). He says the upside is that the airlines know he will get hassled at security, and he gets upgraded about half the time, with apologies from the counter/gate people.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting N844AA (Reply 6):
Edward Allen, John Lewis, David Nelson, Edward Kennedy.

I wouldn't trust Ted Kennedy either!

Quoting Jcavinato (Reply 9):
He says the upside is that the airlines know he will get hassled at security, and he gets upgraded about half the time, with apologies from the counter/gate people.

sounds good to me!
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:07 am

Perhaps I should have clarified my point (duh...).

Why did CO throw such a stink about this child? Because the arms of the TSA and homeland security reach very far. Could CO have been held liable if they didn't keep him off the plane? Is it out of the question that a bureaucrat might have ordered the plane to land after hearing that a passenger with a name on the list was allowed on the plane? Perhaps, even with an emphatic response from CO that the person of interest was a child.

All are correct that this was not TSA's fault; however, the fallacy that a "no-fly" list makes us safe is proven yet again with this list. It was not CO's list, it was the TSA's list that caused the consternation. CO dramatically overreacted, but my feeling is that trying to please too many security concerns has led to farces such as this one.

I cannot conceive that any rationale person could possibly believe that every American (or every person on the planet, for that matter!) has a different name. Common sense and experience have told us that names can get confused all the time. If I showed up at the airport and found that someone else with my name had created problems at an airport previously, I would expect that someone is going to want to verify that I am not the same person.

But to hassle a child? Utter nonsense. The "No-Fly" list has to reflect reality, and airlines living in fear of this list might continue some extraordinarily bizarre policies in the mean time.
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LN-MOW
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:12 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Thread starter):
Of all the things I have seen/heard/experienced with TSA, this is a new low



Quote:
Quote 1: She said it took several minutes of pleading and a phone call by the ticket agent to get on the plane to New York.



Quote:
Quote 2:Allen, a Jamaican immigrant, said workers at La Guardia Airport were even more hard-nosed before their Dec. 26 flight home. She said a ticket agent told her: "You're lucky that we're letting you through instead of putting you through the other process."

TSA or CO .. ???
Not to defend TSA, but if the CO agents had done what they were supposed to, the passengers wouldn't even have known about this...

Quote:
"We do not require ID for children because there are no children on the list," (TSA spokesperson) Harmon said. "If it's a child, ticket agents have the authority to immediately de-select them."

Close this thread, please .. it's pointless.
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LN-MOW
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:18 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
Why did CO throw such a stink about this child?

If they knew the instructions, they wouldn't.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
Could CO have been held liable if they didn't keep him off the plane?

No, the passenger is an under-12 child.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
Is it out of the question that a bureaucrat might have ordered the plane to land after hearing that a passenger with a name on the list was allowed on the plane?

No, for the same reason. The instructions for use of the list is very clear.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
All are correct that this was not TSA's fault;

So why this post?

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
CO dramatically overreacted

Understatement of the year (yes, I know it's only Jan. 5)

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
But to hassle a child? Utter nonsense.

Totally unneccessary. Finally we agree.
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Gr8Circle
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:24 am

While such incidents are unfortunate, lets not forget that the people we are all trying to guard against are totally unfathomable fanatics.....if well educated adults could end their lives senselessly for a dubious cause on 09/11, what's to stop them from using a minor tomorrow as a suicide bomber? Especially if they believe that such an act will send them straight to heaven or wherever.....

This is a slightly unpleasant note I'm striking, but in the 'New World Order' one cannot overlook the smallest possibility....

I say that the TSA or any other security agency in the world, should definitely look closely at this aspect if they ever have any suspicions.....just the fact that it is a minor is no longer a reason to avoid scrutiny....
 
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LN-MOW
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 14):
While such incidents are unfortunate, lets not forget that the people we are all trying to guard against are totally unfathomable fanatics...

That's why we need people who can think doing the job ...

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 14):
just the fact that it is a minor is no longer a reason to avoid scrutiny.

You are completly right, but that is not the issue here. The issue is about names, not suspiscion, and the TSA clearly states that any person under the age of 12 shall be cleared from the No-Fly status given by the computer. This is man against machine, and the machine must be corrected.

This is a good argument for the fans of CAPPS2. The system would have known that this was a child and not assigned this status.
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LTU932
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:36 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Thread starter):
Of all the things I have seen/heard/experienced with TSA, this is a new low. We all know small children can be terrors, but being on the no fly list? If that isn't the definition of ignorance, I don't know what would be.

Even if it was an error, it was something that was never meant to happen. It's just totally ridiculous. This No-Fly list thing should be suspended and revised until they figure out how to get this system working right.
 
Manta
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting LN-MOW (Reply 15):
The issue is about names, not suspiscion, and the TSA clearly states that any person under the age of 12 shall be cleared from the No-Fly status given by the computer. This is man against machine, and the machine must be corrected.

So how does this work then, lets say the boy keeps flying once per year, and each time he checks in, he is de-selected and allowed to pass through. What happens when he turns say, 18 and checks in, will the system know that he's flown x number of times already and he's not a threat, or will he then be pulled aside?? Just trying to see how much intelligence the current system has.
 
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LN-MOW
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:49 am

When that time comes, they will have to clear him manually, by comparing personal data with the 'real' no-fly person. If they don't match, he'll be off the list. Unfortunatly the system isn't smart enough to clear him automatically. CAPPS2 would be able to do that, but there's too many issues with personal data collection ....

We have to choose between privacy and convenience, and so far privacy has the political edge.
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grantcv
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 7):
That's the compromises we make to avoid profiling. Israel has a far more sane and secure method of ensuring safety of their passengers, but it requires profiling and extra long checks at the airport. They're generally more than happy to put up with the imposition on their personal freedoms to ensure their safety. American's generally aren't. They want to be secure but not inconvenienced in any way. After all, it's the Other Guy who is the problem, not you!

I fly in the US every single week, and have been doing so since before 9/11. In all that time, I have been subjected to extra screening once. It was handled quite politely and after a few minutes, I was on my way. No complaints at all - in fact, I was rather impressed with how professional the TSA agents were.

On the other hand, I flew El Al once. I was stopped and searched for an hour. All my bags and paperwork were searched and I was subjected to the same nonsense by 2 different agents before finally being escorted onto the flight by an agent. My mistake: I did not know that my ticket had been issued in Orus. I instead said Portland, Oregon. When I did not know where Orus was - and they fact that I was a young single male - suspicions were raised. It is only when I took a look at the ticket they were holding did I realize that it said OR US - Oregon, USA.
 
GVWOW
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:57 am

There at least should be a trusted person to maintain the system and correct this sort of error. Even the best computer programs function on a "garbage goes in, garbage comes out" basis, so it shouldn't be treated like something that can judge and think for itself (and be right) because it obviously can't.
 
Lemurs
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:10 am

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 19):
I fly in the US every single week, and have been doing so since before 9/11. In all that time, I have been subjected to extra screening once. It was handled quite politely and after a few minutes, I was on my way. No complaints at all - in fact, I was rather impressed with how professional the TSA agents were.

On the other hand, I flew El Al once. I was stopped and searched for an hour. All my bags and paperwork were searched and I was subjected to the same nonsense by 2 different agents before finally being escorted onto the flight by an agent. My mistake: I did not know that my ticket had been issued in Orus. I instead said Portland, Oregon. When I did not know where Orus was - and they fact that I was a young single male - suspicions were raised. It is only when I took a look at the ticket they were holding did I realize that it said OR US - Oregon, USA.

Yes, thank you for proving my point: American's don't like getting singled out for extra security attention. They get seriously annoyed and offended, and complain to anyone who will listen. Therefore, the industry, the government, and everyone else looks for compromise systems. They work for filtering out basic issues, but at the end of the day, there are obvious holes people can exploit.

In Israel, those holes don't exist, or if they do, they're much smaller and harder to exploit. Look at the hijack success rating between Israel and the rest of the Western world to see what those extra few percentage points of security mean. Again, I'm not saying we need to adopt their system, but calling the current system anything but a facade to keep people happy is a joke. It's not a good security system, it's a good annoyance system to show people "we're trying!"
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:42 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
It's called an error. You never make them, I assume.

It's called bullshit . . .

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
he's 4, not 2.

Irrelevent

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
You have an anti-TSA agenda it would seem.

Definitely. They're useless.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
All a baby has to do is drop a bomb in his/her knappy, and you have a chemical weapon on the airplane.

 rotfl 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
Quoting Jcavinato (Reply 9):
He says the upside is that the airlines know he will get hassled at security, and he gets upgraded about half the time, with apologies from the counter/gate people.

sounds good to me!

I might want to be put on the list  Wink (if only I flew airlines WITH first)

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
Because the arms of the TSA and homeland security reach very far. Could CO have been held liable if they didn't keep him off the plane?

Nope...under 12

my problem with the no-fly list is that some people are FFs and get hassled and when they try to get off the list, they get hassled by the higher ups at the TSA.
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Jacobcal
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:56 am

He is probably just going through his terrible two's!! Maybe he should be on the no fly list!

Jacobcal  Smile
 
ckfred
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:01 am

If the airlines simply had some additional access to the no-fly list, such as a description with each name on the list.

If the name of John Q. Smith is on the list, with a description of white male, age 40, 5'10", brown hair, green eyes, and a John Q. Smith, black male, age 60, 6'3", gray hair, brown eyes tries to check in, the ticket agent could simply type in that the passenger doesn't meet description, and the passenger doesn't get the extra screening.

The other solution, for which TSA is dragging its heels, is the trusted traveler program. If they would get that program going, people could, for all intents and purposes, buy their way off the no-fly list, by paying a fee and being subjected to an FBI-type background check.

I've heard that the fee could be $50 to $100. I would pay that, just to avoid taking my shoes and coat off, as well as standing behind people who wait until the metal detector to start pulling change, wallets, etc. out of their pockets.
 
GBan
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:29 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 14):
I say that the TSA or any other security agency in the world, should definitely look closely at this aspect if they ever have any suspicions.....just the fact that it is a minor is no longer a reason to avoid scrutiny....

Do you honestly think the no fly list would help in that case?
 
N754PR
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:34 am

Error after error after error......

Thank god they are only in control of what happens in the USA.
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Mir
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
All a baby has to do is drop a bomb in his/her knappy, and you have a chemical weapon on the airplane.

 rotfl  Nice one.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
OOer
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:36 pm

Ok...this is where unless you actually know what you are talking about you just need to be quiet. The kid is NOT on the no-fly list or any other list of any sort. If the child WAS on the no-fly list he would not be able to fly, law enforcement would be called, the child would be arrested and interrogated by several agencies.

Airlines use a system called CAPPS. Computer Assisted Passenger Pre-screening System.

The child was a POSSIBLE match. He was obviously cleared and was able to fly.

This is because one or more pieces of information in the passengers reservation matches certain information/criteria that certain government agencies provide to the airlines. It could be the name, the address, the form of payment used, the phone number. It could be many things.

Its not an unfortunate accident, its security...and it worked because the child WAS cleared and able to fly. This prosess takes an average of 90 seconds. Is it really that big of an inconvenience?


In regards to the comment made by the mother of "You can tell he's not a terrorist"...please just shut up. If we knew how to tell what a terrorist looks like, or smells like, or acts like, then we would not need all this security now would we?


BTW: How many times have you heard of incidents in the middle east of terrorists using kids?


I wish I could tell you more, but most information is SSI.



Did the CO agent overreact? Maybe, but more than likely no.
The agent probably got on the phone with OSC like you are supposed to and the mother started asking questions, then the agent asked her question about the phone call, and the mother started going off. Trust me I know...it happens ALL the time even with adults!!!!

[Edited 2006-01-06 06:45:25]
 
cvg2lga
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:29 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Thread starter):
Of all the things I have seen/heard/experienced with TSA, this is a new low. We all know small children can be terrors, but being on the no fly list? If that isn't the definition of ignorance, I don't know what would be.

As you later corrected yourself, I can't flame you so much for this, no everyone isn't guaranteed a different name at birth. so mis-identifications can and well do happen. also i would probably believe a quarter of what i hear about tsa (i rely on what i know firsthand though) and about half of what i see with tsa, simply because you may see an entire or glimpse of an incident doesn't necessarily mean you grasp the entirety of it. your experiences with the tsa are yours and i can only take what you say and what i know to form my own opinions. as with what happened and what you think happened, forms your opinion.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
You have an anti-TSA agenda it would seem.

there's a crowd here  Sad

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 14):
This is a slightly unpleasant note I'm striking, but in the 'New World Order' one cannot overlook the smallest possibility....

I say that the TSA or any other security agency in the world, should definitely look closely at this aspect if they ever have any suspicions.....just the fact that it is a minor is no longer a reason to avoid scrutiny....

tsa does address this issue inside. at one time there were specific orders to look into this direction but thats something i cannot elaborate on (SSI) so it isn't like they are just turning thier heads from this.

Quoting N754PR (Reply 27):
Thank god they are only in control of what happens in the USA.

Yes you should thank God, for He is who is in control of it all,everywhere. Or so I believe.

Tchau
DA-
They don't call em' emergencies anymore. They call em' Patronies.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:06 pm

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 14):
what's to stop them from using a minor tomorrow as a suicide bomber?

i doubt that minor's name would be on the no-fly list though.  Wink

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 19):
My mistake: I did not know that my ticket had been issued in Orus. I instead said Portland, Oregon. When I did not know where Orus was - and they fact that I was a young single male - suspicions were raised. It is only when I took a look at the ticket they were holding did I realize that it said OR US - Oregon, USA.

that'll teach you silly american not to be so provincial.  Wink

Quoting CVG2LGA (Reply 30):
there's a crowd here

Yeah, and it's annoying. I would guess they are the same people who say the police harass them all the time, just because they speed on the highway without paying attention, run red lights and/or get drunk in public. I don't have an authority complex, and miraculously, I don't tend to have authorities constantly harassing me. except the boston police. they suck...  Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
VEEREF
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:58 pm

I'm an airline pilot and I'm on the list too. Go figure.
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piercey
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
"TSA regional spokeswoman Carrie Harmon said the agency tells airlines not to deny boarding to children under 12 or select them for extra security checks even if their names match ones on the list."

odd... I got extra security three years ago @ 11, sister @ 7 only b/c we were flying one-way.........
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
 
travatl
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:34 am

I personally believe ALL two-year olds should be on the no-fly list.

Travis
 
RAMPRAT980
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:46 am

Wow now thats what I call being proactive
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OOer
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RE: Two-Year Old On No-Fly List

Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 32):
I'm an airline pilot and I'm on the list too. Go figure.

You are NOT on the list. You come up as a POSSIBLE match for the list. If you were on the list you would not be able to fly that plane!!!!!!


Again...you are NOT on the list. That kid was NOT on the list. You are a POSSIBLE match for the list. Keyword is POSSIBLE. Are you allowed to go and fly your plane every time? Yes, that means you are NOT on the list.

How many times does this need to be explained?

Quoting Piercey (Reply 33):
odd... I got extra security three years ago @ 11, sister @ 7 only b/c we were flying one-way.........

If you APPEAR to be over the age of 12 you are still subject to additional screening. Its not what your age actually is...because you more than likely did not have a government issued picture ID with you...its what age you APPEAR to be.


Anyone have any more questions?

Its a rather simple process, and it doesnt take much time...why is everyone making a big deal out of it?