Rj111
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:02 am

1st 787 Model To Be B/C-market. Unlike Boeing?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:50 am

I was just wondering if there was any striking reason why Boeing are developing the first model of the 787 - the 788 - as a long hauler immediately and not adopting their usual, 'A', 'ER', and more recently 'LR' approach.

The last time they did this was with the 741, which although had a impressive range for the time, is quite a modest 9,800km in todays market. So the 788 will actually have a range 5,900km's greater than any other debuting airliner model Boeing has ever produced.

Quite a step you might say.  Smile
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: 1st 787 Model To Be B/C-market. Unlike Boeing?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:02 am

I can see your point... though would probably be less anecdotal of a conclusion if you'd chosen to go for size other than range; as only Boeing's widebodies are capable of B-market utility int he first place, whereas there've been several examples of them debuting longer/larger models before shrinking them.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: 1st 787 Model To Be B/C-market. Unlike Boeing?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting RJ111 (Thread starter):
I was just wondering if there was any striking reason why Boeing are developing the first model of the 787 - the 788 - as a long hauler immediately and not adopting their usual, 'A', 'ER', and more recently 'LR' approach.

I suggest that it is technology's progression. Boeing should be capable of making an even longer range 788 right away but they aren't. Simply speaking it is easier to make a long range twin aircraft right off the bat rather today than it ever has been before, and making it right away means they cover most of the market in terms of range requirements, including those of airlines who might also abuse the aircraft on shorter routes.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
birdbrainz
Posts: 422
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 6:57 am

RE: 1st 787 Model To Be B/C-market. Unlike Boeing?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:20 am

My guess is that the big first customers are asking for that model first.

Remember than UA was the launch customer for the 777, and they wanted the "A" market plane first, so they got it.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
Rj111
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:02 am

RE: 1st 787 Model To Be B/C-market. Unlike Boeing?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:05 pm

You're probably right Atmx and i also suspected that myself. No big deal in the end i just thought it was, "out of character" perhaps.

Personally, i can see great benefits in producing am 'A' market aircraft first. It means you can analyse the performance of the airframe and make suitable modifications for the HGW versions. I'll also speculate this is why Boeing often met performance, as they had an example already flying and only needed to factor in modifications when predicting new ranges. Whearas McDD and Airbus tend(ed) to go for the 'B' market immediately, and understandably the furthur the range, the harder it is to predict range. Also with design in a more developed stage, it may be harder to modify and 'perfect' the finished article.

However, I assume to really knock Airbus for 6, they felt it was necessary to offer the longer range earlier.
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: 1st 787 Model To Be B/C-market. Unlike Boeing?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:25 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 4):
Personally, i can see great benefits in producing am 'A' market aircraft first. It means you can analyse the performance of the airframe and make suitable modifications for the HGW versions.

The problem with A versions is that they don't sell well when the market knows you are going to put a B version and tend to lose value when the B market version comes out. And if A market version manufacturing costs aren't low enough to offset this value loss, you can't discount the A version enough to get enough customers to bite without taking a hit yourself.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8544
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: 1st 787 Model To Be B/C-market. Unlike Boeing?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:38 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
The problem with A versions is that they don't sell well when the market knows you are going to put a B version and tend to lose value when the B market version comes out.

Given the rapid growth steps Boeing are taking toward the 787-9HGW and -10X, I'd say the -8 may very well be an "A model."

A very high-performance "A model" that many airline's will order, but an "A model" none-the-less. It doesn't appear that Boeing built any less capability into the 788 than they did the 772A.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: 1st 787 Model To Be B/C-market. Unlike Boeing?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:18 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
Given the rapid growth steps Boeing are taking toward the 787-9HGW and -10X, I'd say the -8 may very well be an "A model."

You're starting to stray from the subject concept of the post...

the 788 will not be an A-market product, which is a quantitative measure; it will however, be something of a protoype model.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: 1st 787 Model To Be B/C-market. Unlike Boeing?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:54 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
Given the rapid growth steps Boeing are taking toward the 787-9HGW and -10X, I'd say the -8 may very well be an "A model."

A very high-performance "A model" that many airline's will order, but an "A model" none-the-less. It doesn't appear that Boeing built any less capability into the 788 than they did the 772A.

Well, we are talking about aircraft of a given size that comes in different ranged variants. OEW differences are substantially less for A/ER/LR models than for different sized models, which translates into much greater price and operating cost differentials, putting less pressure on the price and residual value of family members of lower capacity and similar range. And while the built in capability of the 788 is partly responsible for the Boeing's ability to move in the direction of the similar range class 789HGW and -10X, I think a lot of it is due to the manufacturing technology involved, which is allowing Boeing to easily increase MTOW by winding extra layers of tape to increase composite fuselage wall thickness and strength.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!