LordHowe
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AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:29 pm

Finnairs's first refurbished business class cabins should have been flying in December 2005 - has anybody experienced them yet?

According to AY's current schedules there are two MD11s out of traffic.

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LordHowe
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OHLBU
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:29 pm

OH-LGG will be the first to offer the new cabin layout and it should be flying on 16th January, IIRC. All 7 should be reconfigured by May, or atleast that was the original schedule. Currently it seems more likely that they will lease a used A343 late this summer and the first two factory-new airframes could be delivered as soon as next winter. Only problem being that A343 doesn't fit into any of the non-Schengen gates at HEL so, as it has so much wider wingspan than any current type operating there (namely MD-11). Funny no-one thought about that BEFORE ordering the type...
 
LordHowe
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting OHLBU (Reply 1):
A343 doesn't fit into any of the non-Schengen gates at HEL so, as it has so much wider wingspan than any current type operating there (namely MD-11). Funny no-one thought about that BEFORE ordering the type...

Well, it isn't the airport who is ordering the planes, its the airline. And the airport just has to be able to serve all the airlines with all there different types of airplanes.

They've got a lot of time to build new gates.

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LordHowe
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OHLBU
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:06 pm

Quoting LordHowe (Reply 2):
They've got a lot of time to build new gates

Have you been to Helsinki-Vantaa recently? There is no space to build new non-Schengen gates, except by lengthening the current end of the terminal. This would take a lot of time and make gates 31-33 impossible to use during the building period. But that is the current plan of Ilmailulaitos (Finnish CAA) who runs the airport.

Quoting LordHowe (Reply 2):
it isn't the airport who is ordering the planes, its the airline

Really? Thanks for that revelation! My point was that this is the normal Finnair policy, big bright ideas are made into decisions at the head-office without consulting the grass-level operational people how the ideas will work in day-to-day real life. Same thing as with the Embraer 170s, which are causing operational head-aches daily.
 
persotvik
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:18 pm

Remote parking would be the solution then Wink
Just love flying
 
Motorhussy
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:46 pm

This off the AY website @

http://www.finnair.fi/filecontent/fi/seat/eng/

Finnair is the first airline in the Nordic countries to introduce lie-flat seats in its intercontinental fleet – so a Business Class flight is now even more comfortable than ever. The new seats will be installed between December 2005 and April 2006.

With the lie-flat seats, the space between seats will increase from the current 127 cm/50 in. to 160 cm/63 in. – the most comfortable seat in its class. The new seats provide more privacy for rest and work. Passengers can stretch out and lie flat – even if they are 2 metres/6 foot 7 in. tall.

Another benefit of the seat is that the back doesn’t tilt back into the space of the next passenger. Instead, it adjusts using an electric control into positions for work and rest, inside the passenger’s own personal space. In addition to the angle of the seatback, the seat height and the lumbar supports can also be adjusted.

There is storage space for laptop computers and magazines, and privacy is further increased by the small dividing walls between the seats. There are several adjustment options in the personal reading lamps. There is an individual electric outlet in the seat for laptop computers. Satellite phones are available for the use of passengers.


Really nice flash use in animating the seat's features!

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
Motorhussy
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:00 pm

Interesting, but not surprising to see that SK is following suit with a business class upgrade on inter-continental flights.

http://www.scandinavian.net/EC/Appl/...A38286451FE%2526MKT%253DAU,00.html

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
LordHowe
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting OHLBU (Reply 3):
My point was that this is the normal Finnair policy, big bright ideas are made into decisions at the head-office without consulting the grass-level operational people how the ideas will work in day-to-day real life.

Your point completely understood! Helsinki-Vantaa also frequently visited. No need for new buldings - just change the gate positions so that new aircraft can be served - should not take that much time. Some 9 meters more space for each gate or just make the tubes a few meters longer than now - should not be impossible.

But the fact is that Finnair had to order new aircraft and Boeing would not have helped at all: it happens to have about the same wingspan as 340 (60,30 m Airbus / 60,93 m Boeing)

Besides some day, some airline from non-Schengen areas of the world, would most certainly want to bring a big airbus - or Boeing 777, - to Helsinki-Vantaa airport. How has Finnish CAA (Ilmailulaitos) planned to serve them? Remote parking them? Not a very good idea.

I would say that it is not "the normal Finnair policy" but very shortsighted typical Finnish thinking not to take into consideration that that there in fact are, in longhaul operations, other operators than Finnair with its MD11s.

If HEL wishes to become an important hub in international airtraffic - especially from Asia. They should start acting according to that.

Regards,
LordHowe
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birka340
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:47 am

If I remember correct, SAS will launch their new seat on 20th of Jan on SK937 Copenhagen - Seattle, 46 seats in Business Class.

/B
 
Lufthansa747
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting Birka340 (Reply 8):
If I remember correct, SAS will launch their new seat on 20th of Jan on SK937 Copenhagen - Seattle, 46 seats in Business Class.

Good old SAS... launching new products to markets that make losses. Well done!!

How about CPH-NRT for example...
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OHLBU
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:18 am

Quoting LordHowe (Reply 7):
and Boeing would not have helped at all

True, and I'm very pro-Airbus in this, A343 will look just beautiful in AY-colors. But maybe they should have taken second-hand MD-11s until the new A359s arrive next decade. This would have allowed HEL airport time to build the new facilities needed. The current stands can not be made any wider as this would eat the space of at least one gate, and HEL is already short of airbridge-capacity. Of the current gates only number 24 can accommondate the A343 (was used by SAS when they flew their then-new A343s to HEL to familiarize crews) but this is in the Schengen-area of the terminal and with the exception of Finnair's HEL-AGP charters and HEL-KTT domestic services all other wide-body routes are to non-Schengen destinations.

Quoting Persotvik (Reply 4):
Remote parking would be the solution then

That would mean 6 bus-loads per flight, streching the airport bus-capacity to it's limit, during the busiest time of day.

But let's see, I'm sure some solution will be found in due time, that is in the interest of both Finnair and the airport administration.

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 5):
The new seats will be installed between December 2005 and April 2006.

Yep, that was the original plan but the timetable has slipped. There will be two versions of the seat, on OH-LGA/B/C/D there will be individual IFE-screens installed in the seats, on -LGE/F/G there is a portable DVD-player as these have a different IFE-system from the original AY-ordered planes. Also satellite phones will be installed in the seats on LGA/B/C/D only. The new cabin crew rest area that will be installed during the same ground-time with the new J-cl seats is yet to be certified and we may see the old and new rest area in the air simultaneously for a short period of time.
 
OHLBU
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 9):
How about CPH-NRT for example

Is CPH-NRT a loss-making route for SK? Funny, for AY the Japanese routes have always been a gold-mine of steady and effortless income.
 
Lufthansa747
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting OHLBU (Reply 11):
Is CPH-NRT a loss-making route for SK? Funny, for AY the Japanese routes have always been a gold-mine of steady and effortless income.

No - SEA/SIN/BKK/PVG were mentioned ass loss-making, so why on the earth is the Scandinavian Flatbed debuting on CPH-SEA.

SK just has no clue what they are doing. I suggested myself the damn bed should debut on CPH-NRT, not SEA.
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OHLBU
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 12):

Okay, now I understand yes 
 
LordHowe
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting OHLBU (Reply 10):
But maybe they should have taken second-hand MD-11s until the new A359s arrive next decade

Maybe they should - but the problem seemed to be lack of secondhand MD11s ...

On the other hand you mentioned earlier about " ... decisions at the head-office without consulting the grass-level operational people ..." I've heard directly from AY pursers how unhappy they have been with these secondhand MD11 planes. The ones that had been ordered as new by Finnair where planned for Finnair, but LGE and LGF not - same goes of course for LGG too. Working conditions in the latter ones have not been the same.

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LordHowe
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Lufthansa747
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:59 am

Apparently LGG was in pretty bad condition so that's delaying the introduction.
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LordHowe
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 15):
was in pretty bad condition

Wasn't it a Varig plane? How come " ... in pretty bad condition ..."

On the other hand this again proves that seconhand MD11s is not a very good solution.

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LordHowe
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CRJ900
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting OHLBU (Reply 3):
Same thing as with the Embraer 170s, which are causing operational head-aches daily.

What headaches are those cute little planes causing?
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LordHowe
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:14 am

Quoting OHLBU (Reply 10):
This would have allowed HEL airport time to build the new facilities needed

You are "ground staff". Are you working for HEL or AY?

I just would like to understand your point of view ...

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LordHowe
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OHLBU
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:39 pm

Quoting LordHowe (Reply 18):

Neither of them is my employer Wink

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 17):
What headaches are those cute little planes causing?

Frozen engines and cargo hold doors, balance-problems, too little space for cabin baggage. Ballast fuel has to be carried to get them into balance and this aint good for the much-praised economy of these Cobacabana-jets...
 
killjoy
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RE: AY First Lie-Flats In The Air Yet?

Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting OHLBU (Reply 3):
big bright ideas are made into decisions at the head-office without consulting the grass-level operational people how the ideas will work in day-to-day real life.



Quoting OHLBU (Reply 19):
Frozen engines and cargo hold doors, balance-problems, too little space for cabin baggage. Ballast fuel has to be carried to get them into balance and this aint good for the much-praised economy of these Cobacabana-jets...

I'll bet that a problematic E170 is still more efficient than a half full A319, though. I highly doubt that upper management would be incompetent enough to not listen to their employees. There's no guarantee Bombardier would've been better, either.

Quoting LordHowe (Reply 7):
I would say that it is not "the normal Finnair policy" but very shortsighted typical Finnish thinking not to take into consideration that that there in fact are, in longhaul operations, other operators than Finnair with its MD11s.

If HEL wishes to become an important hub in international airtraffic - especially from Asia. They should start acting according to that.

It's not short sighted. At the time those gates were built, the largest common aircraft at HEL for the foreseeable future were the DC-10 and the MD-11. Why not optimize the gates for that wingspan? More would just be a waste of space.

Also, it's not HEL by itself that's trying to become a large hub - it's Finnair trying to turn it into one. HEL is playing its cards well catering mainly to Finnair's needs, as that's where the growth is.

Quoting OHLBU (Reply 10):
But maybe they should have taken second-hand MD-11s until the new A359s arrive next decade. This would have allowed HEL airport time to build the new facilities needed.

It was already mentioned that LGG was in bad shape when it arrived from Varig, and that the second hand aircraft are turning the fleet into a mess, but even without that knowledge there's no reason to believe that the decision to order A343's was taken lightly.

Introducing a temporary type is going to raise costs regardless of whether the gates need to be modified. I'm certain they did their utmost to avoid it, and this fact alone suggests that it must have been close to impossible.