WINGS
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A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:51 am

Browsing through the Airbus website, it has come to my attention the following facts.

It seems that Airbus is studying the possibility of opening up an A350 assembly line, alongside the current A330/A340. This would seem to indicate that Airbus will be able to increase production of the A350 while at the same time being able to deliver the A330/A340.

This might also be an indication of an eventual A330-200F to keep this line open into future.


From Airbus.com
New buildings are being planned, including a dedicated final assembly line alongside the current long-range FAL in Toulouse

It has also come to my attention for the first time that the new A350 fuselage structure will result in an increase of 3 inches to the width of the cabin.

From Airbus.com
A new fuselage structure has generated three inches more width, allowing wider seats.

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a350/programme_update.html

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
A319XFW
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:03 am

Perhaps the diametre of the fuselage hasn't increased by 3 inches, but the internals (frames, stringers, cabin walls etc) allow there to be 3 inches more in the cabin.

EDIT: Just like Boeing found out with the 787. (but of course that is a composite fuselage so a bit different to a metallic one)

Perhaps the A350 could move into the A300 line. But a) that has got to shut down first and b) The hangar the A300 is built in is quite small....

[Edited 2006-01-06 20:07:47]
 
PlaneDane
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
It has also come to my attention for the first time that the new A350 fuselage structure will result in an increase of 3 inches to the width of the cabin.

From Airbus.com
A new fuselage structure has generated three inches more width, allowing wider seats.

I don't believe this is a new development, WINGS. We've known about the additional interior cabin width for months now. It is a nice improvement, though.
 
WINGS
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 2):

I don't believe this is a new development, WINGS. We've known about the additional interior cabin width for months now. It is a nice improvement, though.

Hi PlaneDane,

I was aware of an increase in cabin width for a while. I decided to post this update as no real number was presented before. This has now been confirmed by Airbus as an increase of 3 inches.

Has this number been mentioned on the forum before?

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 1):

Perhaps the A350 could move into the A300 line. But a) that has got to shut down first and b) The hangar the A300 is built in is quite small....

I believe that Airbus will try to keep this line open to the max. I would not be too surprised to see this line be dedicated to an eventual A300/A310 replacement.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
kaitak744
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 1):
Perhaps the A350 could move into the A300 line. But a) that has got to shut down first and b) The hangar the A300 is built in is quite small....

After the A300 line is shut down, the building will probably be demolished. The hanger is only wide enough to take one A300 in a diagonal position. So, even the wingspan of a full A300 can't fit in that building. Airbus might expand their A320 line there.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
A new fuselage structure has generated three inches more width, allowing wider seats

That would be less than 1 cm per seat in coach.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
A319XFW
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 4):
Airbus might expand their A320 line there.

Well first the A320 line will be expanded towards China first....
But they could put the new A320 line in there as not to disrupt the old one. But of course it would be better to build the new A320 when it comes in Hamburg Big grin
 
WINGS
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 5):
That would be less than 1 cm per seat in coach.

Even though its a small increase its better than nothing. These changes will also allow the A350 cabin to have a wider feeling in relation to the A330/A340. Now that BMW has jumped on board with the A350 cabin interior, its going to be interesting to see what they can pull off.

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/business/13564937.htm

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 7):
These changes will also allow the A350 cabin to have a wider feeling in relation to the A330/A340.

Do you think people will be able to notice 3 inches? Doubtful.
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Jean Leloup
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 8):
Do you think people will be able to notice 3 inches? Doubtful.

Yes, I think they might. Might not be able to put their finger on the difference, but a slightly roomier feel may be discernable. An extra centimetre or so is not insignificant in avoiding the elbow of the person next to you, etc.

It certainly won't hurt, anyway.

JL
Next flight.... who knows.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 9):
An extra centimetre or so is not insignificant in avoiding the elbow of the person next to you, etc.

That would be an extra 0.47625 cm on either side of you.
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LTU932
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 6):
But they could put the new A320 line in there as not to disrupt the old one. But of course it would be better to build the new A320 when it comes in Hamburg

How about putting the entire A350 line in Hamburg? Would be nice to see widebodies being final assembled in my home town. Big grin
 
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clickhappy
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:17 am

Kudos to Airbus for making it wider. Any amount helps for pax comfort.

If they had made it 3" smaller people wouldn't be saying "yeah but thats only blah blah blah per seat"
 
A319XFW
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11):
How about putting the entire A350 line in Hamburg? Would be nice to see widebodies being final assembled in my home town.

We know that's not going to happen...  Sad (Partly because there's no more room)
Hamburg already lost a battle for the A380 and the one for a possible A320 replacement will probably be tough too.
 
JDD1
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting Kaitak744
After the A300 line is shut down, the building will probably be demolished. The hanger is only wide enough to take one A300 in a diagonal position. So, even the wingspan of a full A300 can't fit in that building. Airbus might expand their A320 line there.


Kaitak I don't know what final assy line you are talking about but it is definitely not the A300 line. Although the last two A300s on the line sit diagonally it is not for wing span reasons. The first two are in a straight line and there is at least eight metres to spare. The hangar only dates from about 1970 and as it is next to the A320 it would be more likely that more A320 jigs would be installed, if the A300 ever stops!!!!
 
Oykie
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:29 am

Hi everyone!

This is my first go on Airliners.net.

As for the A350 I am very eager to see how it turns out.

I don't remember exactly when I first heard about the wider cabin, but I do remember that there was some confusion here on this forum when Leahy announced that the A350 was wider and some speculated that it was a hole new fuselage.

As of Paris Airshow 2005 the A350 featured:

- A new composite center wing box, outer wing box an wing skins

- Flight deck improvements

- Passive and active load alleviation

- Slightly larger windows, though 64% smaller than the 787

- Re-designed interior gaining a 3 inch wider interior

- Flight crew rest under the cockpit

- New APU and horizontal stabilizer

- Genx Engines with bleed air

I do not have a source for when Airbus promised similar pressure on the A350 as on the 787. But I am not sure if that pressure can be kept during the hole flight or just when climbing to 35000 feet.

Around the time Finnair ordered the A350 in December it was clear that the cruise speed of the A350 had been increased to 0.84 Mach similar to the B777, but 0.01 Mach less than the 787.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
flydreamliner
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:40 am

What is 3" of cabin width in a plane almost 20ft wide? Give or take 3" doesn't make a difference. 3" per seat, now that would be something.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
Oykie
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:54 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
3" per seat, now that would be something.

I do agree on that one  Smile
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:33 am

I think i'd notice an inch and a half in the isle
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yowza
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:19 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
3" doesn't make a difference

That's what my girlfriend keeps telling me, but I'm not sure what she means  Wink

On the airbus website the 359 range is demonstrated with Dubai as the point of origin, interesting no?

YOWza
 
BoomBoom
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:33 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12):
If they had made it 3" smaller people wouldn't be saying "yeah but thats only blah blah blah per seat"

No, they'd be saying, "three inches, who will notice?"
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
cloudyapple
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:43 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 4):
After the A300 line is shut down

The A300 will NEVER die!!! It just goes on and on and on. (Probably running on Duracell~)
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cloudyapple
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:55 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 20):
No, they'd be saying, "three inches, who will notice?"

Compared to the cabin width difference between A320 and B737 (5.8in - 1in/seat) and that was very very noticeable. 0.5in seat on the A350 might just be noticeable though not as noticeable as the A320/B737 if you see what i mean... What's B787's cabin width again?
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cloudyapple
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:00 pm

B787 Cabin width is 226in and A350 is 222in so again 0.5in/seat. Highly subjective.
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StuckInCA
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:12 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 5):
That would be less than 1 cm per seat in coach.

Ever put on a pair of pants that's 1 inch too small in the waist? 1 cm would be noticeable in seat width in my opinion. If I were on a 12 hour flight, I'd fight for that cm.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:15 pm

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 22):
Compared to the cabin width difference between A320 and B737 (5.8in - 1in/seat) and that was very very noticeable.

Well that difference is nearly twice as much. Still I never noticed the A320 was wider until it became a topic of discussion on a.net.

What I did notice was the more room in coach on American Airlines 757. It has the same cross section as the 737 but they used to give you more pitch. Three inches more of personal leg room in front of you is noticeable, but three inches spread across the entire cabin isn't.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 23):
B787 Cabin width is 226in and A350 is 222in so again 0.5in/seat. Highly subjective.

The 787 fuselage is 14 inches wider than the A350, so I find it hard to believe that the cabin width is only 4 inches more. But if that's the case--NO ONE WILL NOTICE!
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
gigneil
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:17 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 25):
The 787 fuselage is 14 inches wider than the A350

No, it isn't. The 787's outer diameter is 226 inches, and the A350's is 222. That's 4 inches.

The cabin on the inside is wider due to different structures.

N
 
BoomBoom
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:25 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 24):
Ever put on a pair of pants that's 1 inch too small in the waist? 1 cm would be noticeable in seat width in my opinion.

Well then don't fly on NW. They use the same seat 17.5 on the A320 as they do on the 757. Maybe that's why I never noticed the A320 is wider.

If my pants are too tight it's because I'm completely filling them. If your ass is so fat that you can't fit into a 17.5 inch seat, you ought to purchase two coach seats or fly first class.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
BoomBoom
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:42 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 26):
That's 4 inches.

THEN NO ONE WILL NOTICE!
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
atmx2000
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:46 pm

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 23):
B787 Cabin width is 226in and A350 is 222in so again 0.5in/seat. Highly subjective.

Those are the fuselage widths. The widest cabin width in an A330/A340 is 208" (close to floor level). But in Airbus's standard seat layouts, only 204" is used because the walls curve and reduces cabin width at arm rest level. The cabin width of a 787 in widebodyphotog's chart is 217.5" (close to arm rest height) and all but an inch is used since the cabin wall's curvature is less. If Airbus can modify the shape of the cabin wall panels so that the space between the cabin wall and fuselage is reduced at stragic points, they could more space for seats.
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trent900
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:25 pm

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 18):
I think i'd notice an inch and a half in the isle

I think this is more important then 1cm wider seats. Look at the 737 and A32x for example. The isle width is much more noticable, and that cant be much more then 1.5 inches wider?

D.
 
Toulouse
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:22 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 8):
Do you think people will be able to notice 3 inches? Doubtful.

Some probably will, most probably won't.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 25):
Still I never noticed the A320 was wider until it became a topic of discussion on a.net.

Amazing, as this is a comment I've heard for years since the 320 started flying, and a comment I've overheard from many "non aviation interested" pax.

You know BoomBoom, you really seem to love "attempting" to fault anything that comes out of Toulouse. Sad.
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Oykie
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:42 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 29):
If Airbus can modify the shape of the cabin wall panels so that the space between the cabin wall and fuselage is reduced at stragic points, they could more space for seats.

The 787 is a double-bubble design. That is why they are able to provide a less curved sidewalls. I believe this will be hard for Airbus on the A350 due to the circular fuselage shape. I could be proved wrong though.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
atmx2000
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:58 pm

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 32):
The 787 is a double-bubble design. That is why they are able to provide a less curved sidewalls. I believe this will be hard for Airbus on the A350 due to the circular fuselage shape. I could be proved wrong though.

Airbus will never get flat side walls out of the circular fuselage. All they can hope for less separation between the cabin wall and fuselage. They could also increase width if they could lower the cabin floor and move armrest height down to a wider location of the fuselage. If they can make the floor less thick they could do this without compromising on cargo deck height.
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A319XFW
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:04 pm

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 32):
The 787 is a double-bubble design. That is why they are able to provide a less curved sidewalls. I believe this will be hard for Airbus on the A350 due to the circular fuselage shape. I could be proved wrong though.

The 787 wasn't the first aircraft to have a double-bubble design. The A320 has got it and I'm sure other aircraft too.
Don't know about the A350 though.
 
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garpd
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:36 pm

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 34):
The 787 wasn't the first aircraft to have a double-bubble design. The A320 has got it and I'm sure other aircraft too.
Don't know about the A350 though.

He didn't say it was the first But seeing as that seems to be of importance to you. I believe the DC-8 and the 707 were the first with double bubble.

Nay, strike that... the Stratocruiser was I beleive.

[Edited 2006-01-07 13:37:16]
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AcessColombia
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 20):
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
3" doesn't make a difference

That's what my girlfriend keeps telling me, but I'm not sure what she means Wink

Hillarious.

On the other hand a I can picture a BMW interior 350 right now. Just a whole bunch of leather everywhere.
Por el Respeto
 
Oykie
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RE: A350 Update.

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:29 pm

Do not forget the wood panels and the I-drive system for IFE.  Smile
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
A319XFW
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RE: A350 Update.

Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 35):
He didn't say it was the first But seeing as that seems to be of importance to you. I believe the DC-8 and the 707 were the first with double bubble.

Nay, strike that... the Stratocruiser was I beleive.

Yep, it was just the A320 came to mind first (as I have physically seen it too)!
Some people make it sound like the 787 revolutionised aircraft dimensions.....
 
Oykie
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RE: A350 Update.

Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 38):
Yep, it was just the A320 came to mind first (as I have physically seen it too)!
Some people make it sound like the 787 revolutionised aircraft dimensions.....

Why did airlines abandon the idea of the circular fuselage. What was the benefits of that design? I believe that both A300/A330/A340/A350 and B777 has a circular fuselage. Or is this different markets require different designs?
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
A319XFW
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RE: A350 Update.

Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 39):
Why did airlines abandon the idea of the circular fuselage. What was the benefits of that design? I believe that both A300/A330/A340/A350 and B777 has a circular fuselage. Or is this different markets require different designs?

I suppose with a tube the forces acting on it are more equally distributed than on a double-barrel. That way you got a unifrom hoop-stress etc around the fuselage and is probably better for longer distance (time pressure is acting) flights.
One consideration for the double-barrel is like with the 787 better width around shoulder height.
But if anybody could confirm this?
 
Oykie
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RE: A350 Update.

Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:37 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 40):
I suppose with a tube the forces acting on it are more equally distributed than on a double-barrel.

Thanks for your info. That sounds very plausible. With your reasoning a cylindrical fuselage should require less structural strengthening than a double-barrel fuselage?
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
ikramerica
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RE: A350 Update.

Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:53 am

787 is an ellipse, not a double bubble, from what I understand. There is a difference.

A double bubble is the merging of 2 circles with the same or different radii and curved sections that attach to both at tangents. It can only be defined by a series of equations with limits.

An ellipse is a single shape with a short and a long axis radius, defined by a simple equation. It is also more structurally sound, from a pure geometric sense.

E170/190 is a double bubble.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
whitehatter
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RE: A350 Update.

Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:02 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 34):

The 787 wasn't the first aircraft to have a double-bubble design. The A320 has got it and I'm sure other aircraft too.

plenty of other aircraft with that profile, the first notable jet being the DC-8 which has a pronounced double-bubble profile.

Later aircraft didn't have so much of a pronounced profile as constructors and airlines started noticing how much money could be made from the bottom half of an aircraft. Eventually resulting in the Holy Grail of aircraft operations, the LD3 container.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
BoomBoom
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RE: A350 Update.

Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:09 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 42):
787 is an ellipse, not a double bubble, from what I understand.



Quote:
Rather than the standard circular fuselage cross-section of the 777, the new plane (787) will have what's known as a "double-bubble" fuselage. This will allow it to carry bigger cargo containers like the A330, while also providing more room than the A330 in the main cabin for passengers.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine...l?searchpagefrom=1&searchdiff=1039
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Oykie
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RE: A350 Update.

Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 42):
787 is an ellipse, not a double bubble, from what I understand.

While I do believe you are correct on this issue, my source of information on the double bubble design is from the book "Boeing 787 Dreamliner -flying redefined on page 96. Could it be that the double bubble design matured into an ellipse?

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 43):
plenty of other aircraft with that profile, the first notable jet being the DC-8 which has a pronounced double-bubble profile.

Is the only benefit of this design the better width interiorwise?
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
flydreamliner
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RE: A350 Update.

Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:20 am

I'm not sure if there is any engineering basis to this, but round fuselage aircraft seem to have larger cargo capacity than 'double-bubble' fuselage aircraft. The MD82/90 with its long, yet very narrow 2-3 cabin has almost as much cargo hold capacity as a 752 (in cubic ft). I'm not sure how cargo capacity will differ between the A350 and 787. As for comparing 737/757 and 320, nearly ever airline I've ridden uses the same seats in both. I'll admit, the 320's aisle is a shade wider, but neither is great. The only place I really appreciate the 320 fuselage is in the overhead bins. My trusty rollerboard has to beat put sideways into a MD-80/DC-9 bin, it fits with less than an inch to spare in the 757/737 (although boeing's bins are nicely designed), but it does fit very nicely into a 320 bin. To me, that's the biggest difference.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
BoomBoom
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RE: A350 Update.

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 29):
Those are the fuselage widths. The widest cabin width in an A330/A340 is 208" (close to floor level). But in Airbus's standard seat layouts, only 204" is used because the walls curve and reduces cabin width at arm rest level. The cabin width of a 787 in widebodyphotog's chart is 217.5" (close to arm rest height) and all but an inch is used since the cabin wall's curvature is less.

So that means the 787 cabin is 13.5 inches 34 cm) wider at arm rest level than the A330/340. That's significant and WILL BE noticible.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
Oryx
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RE: A350 Update.

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:25 am

The advantage of other shapes than circular is better use of provided room for palettized or boxed cargo as well as passengers. The disadvantage is more aerodynamic drag, higher stresses on the structure therefore higher weight. As fare as I know the length of the flight does not matter it's only the number of pressurization cycles that leads to high cycle fatigue.
 
gigneil
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RE: A350 Update.

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 43):

plenty of other aircraft with that profile, the first notable jet being the DC-8 which has a pronounced double-bubble profile.

The 707 was double-bubble as well.  Smile

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