747luvr
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Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:44 am

Just read that a 45 y/o woman died on America West flight 29 CLE-PHX and that a Dr. aboard performed CPR for 1/2 hour with an emergency stop in Colorado Springs.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:54 am

My neighbor ramper for United at Dulles says that this does happen occasionally. Usually they are not newsworthy and don't end up on the news. Natural causes, elderly travellers, etc...it's bound to happen in flight every now and then.
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LTU932
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:58 am

Any word on the cause of death?

My sincere condolences to the family of that woman. May she rest in peace.  Sad
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:24 am

Glad I have never been on a flight where this type of thing happened. My condolences to the family.
One Nation Under God
 
warreng24
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:28 am

How does that work legally? I mean, are doctors on board an aircraft legally obligated to help in such a situation?

If I was a doctor, I would be afraid of being sued by the family if I wasn't able to do CPR correctly.
 
Cadet57
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:35 am

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 5):
If I was a doctor, I would be afraid of being sued by the family if I wasn't able to do CPR correctly.

the good semeritan law protects those who perform such techniques, so long as they are done to the best of ones ability as long as they can until either a)somone else continues or b)professionals arrive.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
Timology
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:36 am

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 5):
If I was a doctor, I would be afraid of being sued by the family if I wasn't able to do CPR correctly.

If there would be no doctor or what so ever on board, then the person would've died anyway. The family should be thankful for your effort of trying to help this person. But then again, it would be The States..
"Arm in arm we are the harmless sociopaths"
 
travatl
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:36 am

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 5):
How does that work legally? I mean, are doctors on board an aircraft legally obligated to help in such a situation?

If I was a doctor, I would be afraid of being sued by the family if I wasn't able to do CPR correctly.

First, if you weren't able to do CPR correctly, how would you be a doctor?

Second, the law protects private citizens who offer/render aid and assistance during an emergency from liability.

Travis
 
JBird
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:49 am

Actually, doctors are not covered under the good Samaritan laws. I have several friends that are doctors that will not go near an accident scene. They are still liable for their actions even though they do not have the tools of their trade available to them. Unfortunately, it is their career and insurance rates that are at stake. Personal injury attorneys have had a profound affect on normal human compassion.

Jbird
 
highpeaklad
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:02 am

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 5):
How does that work legally? I mean, are doctors on board an aircraft legally obligated to help in such a situation?

In the UK a doctor would never be successfully sued as long as they were doing their best. Remember if they are not breathing then they will die so whatever you do to them can't leave them worse off than when you found them.

I believe in France there is a law that says you will be prosecuted if you DON'T give help.

Cultural differences !

Chris
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flyingdoctorwu
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:08 am

Quoting Travatl (Reply 8):
First, if you weren't able to do CPR correctly, how would you be a doctor?

Trust me- there are a lot of doctors who can't perform CPR correctly....

Radiologist, Dermatologists, Opthamologists, Orthopedists for example

Chris (anesthesiologist)
 
rlwynn
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:26 am

Quoting JBird (Reply 9):
I have several friends that are doctors that will not go near an accident scene. They are still liable for their actions even though they do not have the tools of their trade available to them.

Would not that go against the Hippocratic Oath?
I can drive faster than you
 
midex461
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:58 am

As bicoastal said, this does happen occasionally on aircraft. However, what I heard was that the doctors will wait to pronounce until after he/she is off the plane, mainly as a courtesy. Otherwise the plane becomes a biohazard and has to be quarantined.
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Gilligan
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:01 am

Quoting Midex461 (Reply 13):
However, what I heard was that the doctors will wait to pronounce until after he/she is off the plane, mainly as a courtesy. Otherwise the plane becomes a biohazard and has to be quarantined.

That's right, no one ever dies "on the plane". They expire on the jetway.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
lincoln
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:08 am

Quoting 747LUVR (Thread starter):
Just read that a 45 y/o woman died on America West flight 29 CLE-PHX and that a Dr. aboard performed CPR for 1/2 hour with an emergency stop in Colorado Springs.

It was mentioned very briefly on the morning news I watch (WJW-TV/Fox 8 Cleveland -- I can see their studio from my appartment, and they use shots of my appartment building [usually] several times a day during weather segments)...

Kinda delivered as a "Thanks for that diet story, Kenny, oh, and by the way a woman died on America West Flight 29 from Cleveland. That's too bad. We'll be right back with traffic after this." -- I was a little suprised they didn't provide something additional

Quoting Piercey (Reply 1):
On the bright side, at least CLE is in the news for once

Ok, so I don't feel so bad for having the exact same though  Smile

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 5):
How does that work legally? I mean, are doctors on board an aircraft legally obligated to help in such a situation?

If I was a doctor, I would be afraid of being sued by the family if I wasn't able to do CPR correctly.

No. Doctors are not legally required to offer their services

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 6):
the good semeritan law protects those who perform such techniques, so long as they are done to the best of ones ability as long as they can until either a)somone else continues or b)professionals arrive.

The Good Samaritan laws do not protect professionals (i.e. doctors, RNs, EMTs) from liability, just lay people who do their best until releived by a professional.

This was discussed a little bit in response to questions I asked in my "When Is The Decision Made To Divert For A Medical?" thread (where a medical professional ended up reviving someone on one of my Christmas day flights): When Is The Decision Made To Divert For A Medical? (by Lincoln Dec 25 2005 in Civil Aviation)
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
brokenrecord
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:10 am

Doctors are not legally obligated, but I believe that Hipocratic Oath that nurses and doctors take somewhat binds them to helping others.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:18 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 15):
That's right, no one ever dies "on the plane". They expire on the jetway.

I had one expire on the flight once. It was a late-night SLC-PDX flight, and the elderly pax had just been released from a cancer hospice in SLC, and her daughter was essentially taking her home to PDX to die. About halfway there, she slipped away, and there was a doctor aboard who confirmed it. She also had a DNR order. There were not many people on the flight, and some were moved to give them some privacy for the remainder of the flight.

Rather than divert to BOI or GEG and leave them in a strange city not knowing anyone there, we continued to PDX (only a few minutes more flying time than a diversion), and took care of everything there. The station folks did an outstanding job, both as far as the emotional support aspects, as well as the logistical ones. The aircraft was terminating for the night, and it made scheduled departure in the morning.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:22 am

Quoting Highpeaklad (Reply 10):
Cultural differences !

It's that collective sense of greed that is destroying the moral fabric of the United States - not even Rome lasted forever.

Quoting Brokenrecord (Reply 17):
Doctors are not legally obligated, but I believe that Hipocratic Oath that nurses and doctors take somewhat binds them to helping others.

The Doctor's Hypocratic Oath is a hypocritical joke! There are no ethics in business any more and health care in the US has turned into a business just like your local Jiffy Lube looking to change your car's vital fulids.
 
Gilligan
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:23 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 18):
and it made scheduled departure in the morning.

They were able to take care of the quarantine issues overnight?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
jumbojet
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:43 am

if a passenger expires on the airplane, I would imagine once the plane lands they remove the body and its affects immediately. usually, a body that expires in a public place requires the precense of local law enforcment and detectives, EMT's to pronounce a DOA time and the local ME's office to remove the body, thus possibly tying up the aircraft for several hours. I would imagine this process is bypassed.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Flyi's Last Flight On 1/5/2006...

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:46 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 20):
They were able to take care of the quarantine issues overnight?

I don't recall any specific "quarantine" issues per se, but whatever the medical examiner needed to do on-site was able to get done without delaying the flight the next morning... Airlines have access to 24x7 biohazard remediation...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
trex8
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:01 pm

Quoting JBird (Reply 9):
Actually, doctors are not covered under the good Samaritan laws.

yes they are , or at least in most of the 50 states. its not that they would ever likely be successfully sued under such circumstances, its just that the stupid tort system would allow such a dumb suit to go forward till it gets thrown out or the plaintiff loses.
I have a relative who does medical legal defense cases, he has seen suits where the plaintiffs attorney hasn't even seen the medical record when the suit is filed and call him up to find out what the case is all about! or cases where the there have been outright forgeries of affadavits saying there was sufficient cause for a case to be filed. Frivolous suits are unfortunately very common and the tort system in the US only benefits lawyers on both sides, not the plaintiff or the defendant.
 
deltaguy767
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:20 pm

Quoting FlyingDoctorWu (Reply 10):
Radiologist, Dermatologists, Opthamologists, Orthopedists for example

I'm afraid I will have to correct you here. My father is an Opthamologist and as per the guidelines set by the Mass. Board of Health he must undergo CPR training and stay current which he does. Anyway my condolences for the woman's family  frown 

From BDL,
DeltaGuy767
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AeroTycoon
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:56 pm

When people expire on flights often times the airplane will continue to its intended destination.

If someone is found dead and gone (when it is apparent that they have been dead for awhile) they are left in their seat, covered by a blanket (another reason not to use airline blankets!).

Another thing... when flight crews make an announcement requesting the services of a doctor and someone materializes, they are mandated to ask for medical identification. The reasons for this are fairly obvious.
 
757223
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:00 pm

I take it America West did not have an AED (Automated External Defibrillator) onboard? I'm not sure which airlines stock them in their aircraft. I believe AA does.
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yowza
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:01 pm

When I was at LHR T3 last year an elderly gentleman passed out right in front of me (which should give you an idea of how long the walk to the gates can be  Wink ) he hit his head on the ground and started bleeing like crazy, some groudn crew rushed in and got on their radios. Within about 1 minute 3 paramedics were on site doing their stuff. This really shook me up before I got on my flight back to YOW.

YOWza
 
lincoln
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:14 pm

Quoting 757223 (Reply 24):
I take it America West did not have an AED (Automated External Defibrillator) onboard? I'm not sure which airlines stock them in their aircraft. I believe AA does.

I'm pretty sure CO does as well. Or at least, when there was the medical issue I liked to above, at one point the FA stopped by my row and mentioned that they were using a Defibrillator.*

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
TAM1079
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:26 pm

Quoting Etops1 (Reply 27):

Tasteless and PETTY!! You are an a$$ for even mentioning it. RIP to the woman.
 
jdwfloyd
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:39 pm

People tend not to die on board A/C. It is a unspoken rule that you wait till the person is off the A/C before they are pronounced dead. If you pronounced them dead on the A/C the plane itself could be grounded until the coroner inquest is complete. That's why people die in jetways and catering trucks but hardly ever airplanes.
 
pilotpip
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:44 pm

Those airplanes are still operating on America West's certificate. Tasteless attempt to be cool and all you did is make an ass of yourself.

Aside from that, what a sad situation. I've had a couple air ambulances come in with pax that were DOA and one that returned because the passenger coded shortly after flight.
DMI
 
D L X
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:32 pm

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 4):
If I was a doctor, I would be afraid of being sued by the family if I wasn't able to do CPR correctly.

A doctor that can't do CPR? Ut-oh...

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):
the good semeritan law protects those who perform such techniques, so long as they are done to the best of ones ability as long as they can until either a)somone else continues or b)professionals arrive.



Quoting Travatl (Reply 7):
Second, the law protects private citizens who offer/render aid and assistance during an emergency from liability.

At common law, no matter who you are, you have no duty to assist, and if you DO choose to assist, you are liable if you put the victim in a worse position than they were without your "assistance." This is first year law school doctrine.

There are some good samaritan statutes out there, but they are limited. If you are an expert in the field (in this case medicine), you are liable for your actions if they put the victim in a worse position than they would have been had you performed your expert skill without error. That means, if you're a doctor, and you slip up and the person dies, (even if she would have died without a doctor's help), you're liable. It also means that if you're a doctor, and the person dies, but you made no errors and performed as a reasonable doctor would, you will not be liable.

Quoting Highpeaklad (Reply 9):
believe in France there is a law that says you will be prosecuted if you DON'T give help.

Yup. There are limited laws like that here, but they really are limited.

Quoting JBird (Reply 8):
I have several friends that are doctors that will not go near an accident scene. They are still liable for their actions even though they do not have the tools of their trade available to them.

Yup.

Quoting JBird (Reply 8):
Personal injury attorneys have had a profound affect on normal human compassion.

Common misbelief. PI attorneys make no money without plaintiffs that have been injured, and doctors will not be liable unless they screw up. I've heard of doctors that run from accidents. IMO, they should be ashamed. 1) They could help save a life, and 2) the only thing to

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 21):
Frivolous suits are unfortunately very common and the tort system in the US only benefits lawyers on both sides, not the plaintiff or the defendant.

I'm tempted to say "Thank god I'm going to be a lawyer," but seriously, this statement is a serious contortion of reality. Plaintiff's lawyers do not get paid a dime if they lose the case. (The reason why frivolous suits are actually NOT common. It is a serious risk to the lawyer that they will take up a lot of time on a loser of a case and make no money for their effort.)

Don't blame the tort system. It is elegant and beautiful. The problem is that certain outlier cases (McDonald's coffee) get sensationalized to the point that people think those are the common cases. (And even then, if you knew all the facts, you might even change your tune about McDonald's case. I didn't, but I know believe that it was not an unreasonable outcome.)

Quoting EWRATC (Reply 33):
She must have had the fish.

Oh man, is that ever in bad taste. And yet I laughed. Clever.
 
uadc8contrail
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:33 pm

dont work for hp...but...do know she was taking morphine and got a little carried away with it....legal or illegal in this situation. my prayers go out to her family...
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
HAL
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:35 pm

Most airlines now have what is called 'Medlink'. We call our operations office over the radio and they do a telephone hookup for us to a doctor who is on standby specifically for situations like this. The contract with Medlink removes all possible liability for the airline and any medical professional assisting on the flight. We relay the info from the doctor onboard to the doctor at Medlink, and the guy on the ground makes the diagnosis and suggested treatment. In conjunction with our dispatch office the decision will be made whether or not to divert, using the medical advice of Medlink. I've had to call them a few times in my career and it had worked well every time.

Since I fly for AWA/US, I am sure Medlink was called in this situation. If there was anything that could be done for the woman I'm sure it was tried. And yes, there are AED's onboard all our planes.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
HPnonrev99
Posts: 62
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:40 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 16):
About halfway there, she slipped away, and there was a doctor aboard who confirmed it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I know you all will, but doesn't a coroner have to pronounce the death. (In this case it was done in the boarding area, RIP, My condolences to the family.)

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 30):
Actually that is wrong, because US Airways East could have a Flight#29 as well. It whole integration thing is nowhere near finished

And US (East) does, Flight 29 PHL-SFO 0800AM departure (A321), good call JMC

Quoting 757223 (Reply 24):
I take it America West did not have an AED (Automated External Defibrillator) onboard? I'm not sure which airlines stock them in their aircraft. I believe AA does

All of the HP (US West) aircraft are equipped with AED's. AED's are designed to assist in sudden cardiac arrest, this wasn't necessarily the case.
Coming soon to an airport near you.
 
nycfuturepilot
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:00 pm

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 4):
How does that work legally? I mean, are doctors on board an aircraft legally obligated to help in such a situation?

Depends on the state, in NJ there is no obligation to but in NY there is an obligation. Airways are federally regulated and im not sure if there is a federal law requiring health care professionals to assist (i assume no though because that would nullify the NJ law). I'm an EMT and am covered by $2 million in insurance (costs about $20 per year) so from an insurance standpoint i wouldnt be afraid to do cpr and would step up to do it in a heartbeat.
Father, Son, HOYA spirit
 
BrazilExPat
Posts: 15
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:01 pm

I'm a flight attendant for Southwest and I know that we are responsible for providing CPR for however long it takes us to get on the ground and have the person pronounced deceased off of the aircraft. We are also not to oblidge a DNR request unless told to do so by MedLink. This is my first post, so be nice to me lol.
 
iowaman
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:06 pm

Great definition of good sam law: "Any person who, in good faith, renders emergency medical care or assistance to an injured person at the scene of an accident or other emergency without the expectation of receiving or intending to receive compensation from such injured person for such service, shall not be liable in civil damages for any act or omission, not constituting gross negligence, in the course of such care or assistance."
 
davejwatts
Posts: 41
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:30 pm

I have heard cases where people have sued after being brought back, as they 'claimed' they didn't want to be resuscitated and this actually stood up in court. These days its best not to advertise the fact you are a healthcare professional and let actual trained first aid staff deal with it as there company insurance covers any claims made. In the UK things are going the same way as US with suing over ridiculous things, I just wonder who actually benefits from it all?? Oh that's right law firms!!!
 
vegas005
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:31 pm

A physician is ethically required to render assistance. Ironically, the physician is not generally protected from the threats and the realities of malpractice lawsuits, even when performing a good deed. Thank the lawyers ... Like the fox minding the hen house...
 
trex8
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:15 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 34):
I'm tempted to say "Thank god I'm going to be a lawyer," but seriously, this statement is a serious contortion of reality. Plaintiff's lawyers do not get paid a dime if they lose the case. (The reason why frivolous suits are actually NOT common. It is a serious risk to the lawyer that they will take up a lot of time on a loser of a case and make no money for their effort.)

Shows you aren't actually in practise yet or at least in IL! yes, it costs money, about 350 bucks in Cook County, IL to file a case, after which the defense attorneys are being paid close to 500/hr while the plaintiffs side is dredging for more info and getting deps. Then as occurs with something like 3/4 of medicolegal cases in the US, the case gets dropped, by which time the defense has spent on average well over 10,000 bucks and 3/4 of cases which go to court find for the doctor. The plaintiff who may well have been injured inappropriately gets nothing in the vast majority of cases filed - that is the reality. What lousy system would allow this if its designed truely to help those who are hurt. The defendant is paying through their nose for the insurance to pay those defense attorneys. The taxpayer ends up paying for it, (did you know Medicare pay doctors in IL almost 50% more for surgical cases than IN simply because of the "office expense" factor from malpratice insurance which the Feds factor in when deciding geographical based rates of Medicare pay to providers).
A good astute lawyer will find a case which is clear cut as to the facts/causation or which a jury will find sympathetic regardless of the facts. Unfortunately there are many lawyers who aren't that good or astute! And this is a good and fair system where the damaged party rarely gets compensated and usually it has more to do with the theatrics of the attorneys in court than the facts. If the case was so compelling in terms of the facts in favor of the plaintiff, it gets settled and doesn't go to trial unless the doctor and insurance company are suicidal or the plaintiffs attorney totally unreasonable in compensation demands!
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:28 pm

Quoting HPnonrev99 (Reply 37):
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I know you all will, but doesn't a coroner have to pronounce the death. (In this case it was done in the boarding area, RIP, My condolences to the family.)

As far as legalities go, I couldn't tell you. All I can say (with specific reference to the flight/situation I mentioned) is that the lady passed away, and a doctor onboard confirmed that she had indeed passed, official pronouncements and paperwork notwithstanding.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
TheSorcerer
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:53 pm

Quoting Highpeaklad (Reply 9):
I believe in France there is a law that says you will be prosecuted if you DON'T give help

Same in Germany, it's called unterlassende Hilfe stellung I think (sorry my German isn't very good anymore).
Dominic
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
 
lincoln
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 34):
up. There are limited laws like that here, but they really are limited.

The question, in this case (and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm certainly not a lawyer- I just spend enough time reading stuff in Lexis to be dangerous) would be whose laws (either Good Samaritan or Duty to Assist) would apply to an airline. The Airline Deregulation Act prohibits states or local governments from regulating the "rates, routes, or services" of an airline... Since the courts have held some fairly interesting things fall into the "services" category (but I'm drawing a blank right now), it would not be too much of a stretch to argue that forcing an airline's pax to assume liability for an action or shielding the pax for liability from a service rendered on board was covered by the ADA and preempted, at least as far as airlines were concerned, by federal law.

If Federal Law didn't preempt state laws on the subject, the question is then "Which state?" The one the flight departed from, the one the flight landed at, the one the flight was over at the time there was a problem, or perhaps the one where the airline is headquartered?

Quoting Davejwatts (Reply 41):
I have heard cases where people have sued after being brought back, as they 'claimed' they didn't want to be resuscitated and this actually stood up in court.

In the US, my understanding is if you have a valid DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) order and the person attempting to resuscitate you reasonably should have been aware of this (can't think of an example on an airplane) then in most cases you (or your estate) can sue the person who violated the DNR, usually, it seems, for assualt, but I could be completely wrong, or this could be a state-by-state thing.

Lincoln
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daron4000
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:10 am

I know UA stocks AED's, because on a DEN-ORD 777 flight, I looked back and saw a sign pointing to where it was stored.
 
bond007
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 34):
I'm tempted to say "Thank god I'm going to be a lawyer," but seriously, this statement is a serious contortion of reality. Plaintiff's lawyers do not get paid a dime if they lose the case. (The reason why frivolous suits are actually NOT common. It is a serious risk to the lawyer that they will take up a lot of time on a loser of a case and make no money for their effort.)

Lawyers accept frivolous law suits because they believe they will WIN the case. If the lawyer didn't think they could win the case, there wouldn't be one ... there's little risk at $100's/hour.

Welcome to the real world.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Markhkg
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:29 am

If there is one flight attendant aboard, an AED must be provided to meet FAA regulations. Commuter aircraft are exempt.

http://www.early-defib.org/news.asp?news_id=115
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flyingdoctorwu
Posts: 271
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 50):
If there is one flight attendant aboard, an AED must be provided to meet FAA regulations.

How often are the AEDs tested? Daily? Weekly? Monthly? Not at all? Our defibrillators/crash carts at the hospital are checked each shift (and are used a lot). Interestingly enough they are just starting to put AEDs in some of the common areas also.

Quoting Davejwatts (Reply 41):
I have heard cases where people have sued after being brought back, as they 'claimed' they didn't want to be resuscitated and this actually stood up in court.

That is mostly true.. However In the case of Klavan vs. Crozer-Chester (a physician who's advanced directive was virtually ignored), the case was dismissed in federal court-> however, the judge (U.S. District Judge Stewart Dalzell) did think that the case had merit stating "This is a sad and novel action; the stuff of tragedy,Dr. Klavan's situation cries out for prompt and definitive judicial resolution,". and suggested that state court would be more appropriate. The right to die has been well established (Katherine Quinlain). However, unlawfuly 'life' is up in the air, so to speak-> there have been cases ruled for and ruled againist. I think a lot of it has to do with the language of advanced irective. Nonetheless I am not sure if this applies in the air (do they have a copy of their advanced directive?) I guess if the traveling companion of the person was to say that he or she was a DNR then perhaps it would need to be headed.

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 35):
do know she was taking morphine and got a little carried away with it

That makes me wonder if she as found dead dead or almost dead (have you seen the Princess Bride). If she was found almost dead then there is a medicine that could have saved her life called Narcan (Naloxone). Nonetheless, I do not believe such medicine is carried onboard planes.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting FlyingDoctorWu (Reply 51):
Nonetheless, I do not believe such medicine is carried onboard planes.

Here's a list of what is...

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...e=14:2.0.1.4.19.26.11.5.46&idno=14
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
D L X
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RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 43):
yes, it costs money, about 350 bucks in Cook County, IL to file a case, after which the defense attorneys are being paid close to 500/hr while the plaintiffs side is dredging for more info and getting deps.

But defense attorney do not bring suits! Plaintiff's attorneys do. And if the suit is frivolous, no plaintiff attorney will file it.

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 43):
Then as occurs with something like 3/4 of medicolegal cases in the US, the case gets dropped, by which time the defense has spent on average well over 10,000 bucks and 3/4 of cases which go to court find for the doctor.

if this stat is true, then more med-mal cases go to trial than the average case. Something like only 10% of cases filed ever go to trial, leading one to believe that fewer med-mal cases border on frivolous than the average case.

Also let us not forget that while the defense has spent over $10k (paid by insurance), the plaintiff is paying much more for her injuries. Plaintiffs are NEVER made whole.

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 43):
The plaintiff who may well have been injured inappropriately gets nothing in the vast majority of cases filed - that is the reality.



I disagree.

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 43):
this is a good and fair system where the damaged party rarely gets compensated and usually it has more to do with the theatrics of the attorneys in court than the facts.

If you go to court and watch cases in action, you'll see just how *boring* and untheatrical they are. Jury boredom is a significant issue.

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 43):
If the case was so compelling in terms of the facts in favor of the plaintiff, it gets settled and doesn't go to trial unless the doctor and insurance company are suicidal or the plaintiffs attorney totally unreasonable in compensation demands!

It is a good thing that cases get settled out of court! The system prefers that people with beefs against each other figure out on their own a way to settle them.

If the plaintiff is unreasonable and does not accept a reasonable settlement offer, he is in a world of hurt. If the actual outcome gives the plaintiff less money after the reasonable settlement is offered, the plaintiff has to pay the attorneys fees to the defendant for every hour billed after the settlement offer was given. OUCH!! Plaintiffs attorneys accept reasonable offers, or they pay for it out of their own pockets.

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 47):
If Federal Law didn't preempt state laws on the subject, the question is then "Which state?" The one the flight departed from, the one the flight landed at, the one the flight was over at the time there was a problem, or perhaps the one where the airline is headquartered?

Choice of law is probably the hardest class in school, mostly because no one (including judges) fully understand it. A tort committed during interstate travel is probably not preempted by federal law, and *might* be governed by law of the state over which the tort occurs. But then it gets tricky because you have to take that state's choice of law rules. For instance, if the tort occurs over New York, and the doctor is from Illinois, and the victim is from Illinois, New York courts will apply Illinois law (most likely). But if the situation were reversed, Illinois courts would apply Illinois law. (I think...) A good lawyer in either state would analyze the laws of both states and make an argument for why the more preferential law applies.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 49):
Lawyers accept frivolous law suits because they believe they will WIN the case.

If they reasonably believe they're going win, that is the definition of not frivolous.
 
thegooddoctor
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:12 am

RE: Woman Dies On America West #29

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting JBird (Reply 8):
Actually, doctors are not covered under the good Samaritan laws.

This is absolutely incorrect. I work in healthcare and I've "been there, done that" with the good samaritan law. If you have doctor friends who stay away from accident scenes because they are afraid of legal action, it is for reasons other than their coverage under the GSA. Either that or they do not understand the GSA very well.

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 47):
In the US, my understanding is if you have a valid DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) order and the person attempting to resuscitate you reasonably should have been aware of this (can't think of an example on an airplane) then in most cases you (or your estate) can sue the person who violated the DNR, usually, it seems, for assualt, but I could be completely wrong, or this could be a state-by-state thing.

If there is no DNR available at the time, then all measures (full code) are to be applied. Oddly enough, even if there is a valid DNR, there are certain exceptions to the "no code" rule (ie, if you have a DNR and call the Paramedics - if you do this in Arizona, they will run a full code)

Quoting HPnonrev99 (Reply 37):
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I know you all will, but doesn't a coroner have to pronounce the death.

No - in the hospital any physician (MD or DO) can pronounce death as well as any two nurses (a physician has to later sign the death certificate).

Quoting BrazilExPat (Reply 39):
I'm a flight attendant for Southwest and I know that we are responsible for providing CPR for however long it takes us to get on the ground and have the person pronounced deceased off of the aircraft. We are also not to oblidge a DNR request unless told to do so by MedLink. This is my first post, so be nice to me lol.

This is because only licensed care providers can determine the validity of a DNR. So unless you are a flight attendant on the side and an RN or MD/DO, you can't be held responsible for spending time during a medical emergency trying to figure out whether the stamped document your 'patient' just gave you is a valid DNR or not. Using Medlink you are recieving instructions from a physician. Even if the patient wants all efforts taken to save his/her life, if it is obvious that CPR is futile, a physician can order the cessation of CPR via phone/medlink, etc.


Some interesting numbers to be aware of when talking about CPR and AEDs, etc: As of two years ago the rate of survival for someone who has full cardiopulmonary arrest in the field (not in the hospital) and is not successfully revived prior to arrival at the emergency room is around 1%. CPR in any setting has less than a 20% success rate. People who have a non-arrythmic etiology for their arrest (ie, those who did not go into cardiopulmonary arrest because their heart rhythm was the cause) have a less than 3% survival rate right off the bat. I've personally been in a number of codes, only a small fraction survived. If only medicine was really as good as they make it look on ER  Wink
The GoodDoctor