CPH757
Topic Author
Posts: 652
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:40 pm

SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:36 pm

Couldn't find another thread on this topic, but if it exist im sorry.

The Danish newspaper Politiken reports a near Collision between a SK IAD-bound flight and a KL AMS-bound flight over Kristiansand in Norway yesterday.

The SK (A330?) had 255+13 people on board, the KL had 80. They were 40 seconds from colliding, when the TCAS system made the SK plane to climb and the KL plane to descent. The Norwegian ATC didn't see the thread, hence no warning.

The article is here, it's only in Danish so far.

http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=428883

The Bodensee midair collision certainly comes to mind. I'm glad that nothing happened this time.
Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
 
User avatar
ptrjong
Posts: 4110
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:38 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:43 pm

Dutch NOS Journaal reports the SAS aircraft was indeed an A330. It was coming from Copenhagen, the KLM Fokker from Trondheim. The 40 seconds translates as 8 km. The Norwegian aviation authorities have started an investigation.

[Edited 2006-01-08 12:49:19]
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
CPH757
Topic Author
Posts: 652
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:40 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:47 pm

A more thorough article is in the Norwegian VG paper. Still not in English, but it also states that it was an A330 and a F70.

They were both at FL340 with an approx 90 degree angle on one another.

http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=112533
Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
 
andz
Posts: 7627
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:54 pm

Thank you for not saying near-miss.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
FJWH
Posts: 922
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 4:50 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:56 pm

I was looking for a Dutch newsource, didn't find it, YET. Anyone??
FlightS in the next 3 months: MSP, PHX, MEM, NCE, TFS, BCN. All round trips from AMS
 
HS748
Posts: 621
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:01 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:10 pm

Quoting Andz (Reply 3):
Thank you for not saying near-miss.

Though near collission is almost as bad. They were 40 seconds and 8km apart, TCAS did its job, it's not such a big story.
 
777DadandJr
Posts: 1484
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:37 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:16 pm

Quoting HS748 (Reply 5):
TCAS did its job, it's not such a big story.

This is true, but I think the bigger story would be, why were these two a/c allowed to get even this close, at the same altitude, in the first place?

That would be the focus of my inquiry.

Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
 
a1rl1ner1965
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 3:24 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:17 pm

 
Oykie
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:20 pm

Quoting HS748 (Reply 5):
Though near collision is almost as bad. They were 40 seconds and 8km apart, TCAS did its job, it's not such a big story.

The reason why I do believe this has been put on frontpages in Norwegian newspapers is the dispute about the controllers in Norway. They have been so disappointed with management that they have not showed up for work because of stress, and thereby causing allot of delays and cancellations.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
sk909
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:38 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:45 pm

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 8):
They have been so disappointed with management that they have not showed up for work because of stress, and thereby causing allot of delays and cancellations.

That may be, but it still dosn't explain the near collision. I mean, even if I very unhappy with management I would smash one of my customers computers.... Or maybe I would? In order to get focus on the issue? But than there would other more safe ways to do that.

Anyways... I am very happy that nothing happened...
Life's for Living!
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:55 pm

Quoting FJWH (Reply 4):
I was looking for a Dutch newsource, didn't find it, YET. Anyone??

also on www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
ehho
Posts: 769
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:26 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:59 pm

The only article in English that I could find (The Scotsman, via Google News):

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=33582006
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
Oykie
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:02 pm

Quoting HS748 (Reply 5):
It's not such a big story.



Quoting SK909 (Reply 9):
That may be, but it still doesn't explain the near collision.

I was just trying to explain to HS748 why I believe it got so much attention in the media. I could be wrong though.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
HS748
Posts: 621
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:01 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:05 pm

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 12):
I was just trying to explain to HS748 why I believe it got so much attention in the media.

And you did, so thanks for that.
 
Matt27
Posts: 2070
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 9:53 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:27 pm

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 8):
The reason why I do believe this has been put on frontpages in Norwegian newspapers is the dispute about the controllers in Norway. They have been so disappointed with management that they have not showed up for work because of stress, and thereby causing allot of delays and cancellations.

Are there still problems with Norwegian ATC? I haven't heard anything about that for some time.
Man ska inte dricka rödvin i en vit hall.
 
scalebuilder
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:32 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:06 pm

Quoting Matt27 (Reply 14):
Are there still problems with Norwegian ATC? I haven't heard anything about that for some time.

From what I understand the dispute has been somewhat ongoing, and also long standing. Recent turnover in upper management is believed to have improved the situation.

Traffic control in Norway has been criticized for being understaffed. This has resulted in frustrating and costly delays for both airlines and passengers.

Just don't understand what they can't beef up their staff. The need is clearly present.
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
Oykie
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting Matt27 (Reply 14):
Are there still problems with Norwegian ATC? I haven't heard anything about that for some time.



Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 15):
From what I understand the dispute has been somewhat ongoing, and also long standing. Recent turnover in upper management is believed to have improved the situation.

Traffic control in Norway has been criticized for being understaffed. This has resulted in frustrating and costly delays for both airlines and passengers.

Just don't understand what they can't beef up their staff. The need is clearly present.

Scalebuilder is right about understaffed and recent turnover in upper management. In December the climate was at max, when the Boss wa asked to step down. This resulted some issues and the ATC agreed to work longer shifts as an interim solution.

The ATC controllcenter in Røyken was supposed to be moved to Bodø controllcenter (about 840KM) in an attempt to bring costs down. This was never accepted by the employee in Røyken,
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
FJWH
Posts: 922
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 4:50 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:06 am

FlightS in the next 3 months: MSP, PHX, MEM, NCE, TFS, BCN. All round trips from AMS
 
malmoaviation
Posts: 379
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:08 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:52 am

Thank God that nothing happened! SK has not room for any fatal accident.  duck  Hope this never happens again.
 
Kerberos
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:47 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting CPH757 (Thread starter):
They were 40 seconds from colliding, when the TCAS system made the SK plane to climb and the KL plane to descent.

How exactly does the TCAS system work? If both aircraft are flying straight and level and converging at the same FL, what prevents both aircraft being commanded to climb / turn in the same direction, thus continuing on a collision course?

Do the TCAS units in each aircraft talk to each other - "Hey I'm gonna climb and turn left - you do better do something else!"?

Or is there a set of rules - like rights of way - programmed in? ie: a/c 1: That other aircraft is coming from my right, i better climb. a/c 2: That other aircraft is coming from my left, i better descend.

Peter
This is your captain speaking. I’ve turned off the no-smokin’ sign. Hell, if the plane is smokin' why can't you?
 
Oykie
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:24 am

The TCAS systems of the two planes on collision course communicate. And they agree on who will dive and who will climb. The pilots have 5 seconds to respond.

When the Russian airplane and the DHL airplane collided it was because the order from the ATC was the opposite of what the TCAS said. So the Russian pilot decided he should trust the ATC. Resulting in both airplane diving.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:36 am

Why doesn't TCAS instead just make the smaller jet descend and bank the larger plane? Would have the same effect and could never result in a crash (unless they are both the same plane, in which case a secondary criteria could be used (based on heading?)
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Oykie
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
Why doesn't TCAS instead just make the smaller jet descend and bank the larger plane? Would have the same effect and could never result in a crash (unless they are both the same plane, in which case a secondary criteria could be used (based on heading?)

Good suggestion. I wonder what the computers algorithm is for which aircraft will descend and which one will climb. That algorithm must be presize so that the systems don't argue or get false information. The system was activated just 45 seconds before the eventual impact.

In this case the heavy A330 from SAS climbed. Which was only 30 minutes from CPH on its way to Dulles. The light F70 from KLM descended.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
CPH757
Topic Author
Posts: 652
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:40 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:08 am

Do the TCAS system really interact to find out? I thought it would be more logical with a consistent rule, like everything northbound (below 90-270 degrees) climbs and everything southbound descent. So if the TCAS make a warning, the pilots always know what to do.

Like Kerberos, I hope someone can explain how the decision is made. I'm sure that it isn't design by common people like me  Smile
Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
 
rdwootty
Posts: 689
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:28 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:36 am

Just watched a programme on Sky1 were a "midair"collision over Tunbridge Wells took place and the main reason was that the pilots did not react to TCAS soon enough. I have to say it was harrowing....poeple were alive for four minitues dropping to the ground
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6430
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:53 am

Quoting CPH757 (Reply 23):
I thought it would be more logical with a consistent rule, like everything northbound (below 90-270 degrees) climbs and everything southbound descent.

Sorry CPH, but that wouldn't work. Two plane, one heading 135 and the other 225 - both southbound - could just as easily collide as anything else.

The TCAS system has a fool proof negotiation algoritm which works.

It may seem not so practical that a heavy 30 minutes into at FL340 is ordered to climb, but that's no problem. It shall only climb 500 feet. It may lose a few knots speed doing that, but that's all. It doesn't have to maintain a constant high climb rate.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Oykie
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:56 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 25):
The TCAS system has a fool proof negotiation algorithm which works.

Do you know what decides who will climb or who will descend?
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6430
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:07 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 26):
Do you know what decides who will climb or who will descend?

No, I don't know how it works.

But every on board TCAS unit in the world has a unique identity code, and they are exchanged during the automatic communication.

They could be simply sequentially numbered from zero and up. And then the low number would descend and the high number would climb. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. But I don't know.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
777wt
Posts: 828
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:45 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:59 pm

Speaking of this TCAS and ATC, this brings up one that happened recently.
(2003 or 2004)

Can't recall the airline but I do know one is a russian aircraft carrying cargo and the other one was an airline in Europe.

Switerzland ATC told the pax plane to dive, but the TCAS in the pax plane said to climb.
ATC confirmed and said to dive again, the captian said the TCAS onboard is warning them to climb. So the dive was started.

The russian cargo plane TCAS said to dive so they did. The result? They both hit each other midair while diving.

Now the bad part? The pax plane was carrying school children coming home for the holidays (dec timeframe I believe) and the parents were so upset with the ATC that caused the crash

One father of the kids went to ATC in switerzland and killed the controller who was leaving at the end of the shift.
 
PolAir
Posts: 870
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 2:20 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:30 pm

Quoting 777WT (Reply 28):
Speaking of this TCAS and ATC, this brings up one that happened recently.
(2003 or 2004)

Can't recall the airline but I do know one is a russian aircraft carrying cargo and the other one was an airline in Europe.

Switerzland ATC told the pax plane to dive, but the TCAS in the pax plane said to climb.
ATC confirmed and said to dive again, the captian said the TCAS onboard is warning them to climb. So the dive was started.

The russian cargo plane TCAS said to dive so they did. The result? They both hit each other midair while diving.

Now the bad part? The pax plane was carrying school children coming home for the holidays (dec timeframe I believe) and the parents were so upset with the ATC that caused the crash

It was a DHL 757 and Tu-154 ( I think) chartered to carry kids from poor famillies for vacation to Spain.

Quoting 777WT (Reply 28):
One father of the kids went to ATC in switerzland and killed the controller who was leaving at the end of the shift.


Are you sure about this? Never heard anything about that.
 
Kerberos
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:47 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:39 pm

Quoting PolAir (Reply 29):
Are you sure about this? Never heard anything about that.

There was an episode of "Mayday" (on Discovery Channel here in Canada) that was about this incident. The last bit of the show talked about the father that killed the controller at his house.

Here's an article I found: http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=455&id=2146352005
This is your captain speaking. I’ve turned off the no-smokin’ sign. Hell, if the plane is smokin' why can't you?
 
Kerberos
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:47 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:44 pm

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 25):

The TCAS system has a fool proof negotiation algoritm which works.

As someone who writes software, some of which deals with devices talking across networks, I'd love to know more about how the TCAS system operates, specifically how the units decide and agree on the best course of action. Trying to think of the logic to be programmed for that boggles my pea brain.

Maybe a subject for the Tech/Ops forum.

Peter
This is your captain speaking. I’ve turned off the no-smokin’ sign. Hell, if the plane is smokin' why can't you?
 
777wt
Posts: 828
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:45 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:11 pm

Quoting PolAir (Reply 29):
It was a DHL 757 and Tu-154 ( I think) chartered to carry kids from poor famillies for vacation to Spain.

My bad, that rings a bell.

Yes that's right, it's an DHL cargo plane and the Tu-154 was the russian plane.
 
MrMcCoy
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:17 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:14 pm

Quoting Kerberos (Reply 30):
There was an episode of "Mayday" (on Discovery Channel here in Canada) that was about this incident. The last bit of the show talked about the father that killed the controller at his house.

I caught that late last year. It was very interesting, and rather unsettling. I felt for the families of that disaster, and especially so for that controller. Imagine how difficult it must be to have such a small margin for error at the office!

I have nothing but respect for our world ATC controllers.
It only takes five years to go from rumor to standard operating procedure.
 
777wt
Posts: 828
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:45 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:15 pm

Quoting PolAir (Reply 29):
Are you sure about this? Never heard anything about that.

Yes, Kerberos provided a link to the story.
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2535
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:18 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:34 pm

Quoting 777WT (Reply 34):
Are you sure about this? Never heard anything about that.

Yes, Kerberos provided a link to the story.

He actually built a shrine in his hometown and spent all his money on it (which apparently was a lot), qut his job and mourned at the mausoleum 24/7. Then he went over and killed the ATC guy, who while at fault, was more or less a scapegoat for the ATC management.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
sk909
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:38 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:36 pm

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 26):
Do you know what decides who will climb or who will descend?

Well it is an algorithm. Hence it will determine certain criteria, thus determine which will climb and who will descend. These criteria are info from censors and communication devices.
http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/tds/TCAS.html
Life's for Living!
 
haj96
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2003 6:00 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:37 pm

Quoting Malmoaviation (Reply 18):
SK has not room for any fatal accident.

Does ANY airline have room for accidents?????  scratchchin 

Regards,
haj96
 
BA84
Posts: 184
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:36 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:19 pm

 
User avatar
Navigator
Posts: 866
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2001 2:31 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:06 pm

Quoting Malmoaviation (Reply 18):
Thank God that nothing happened! SK has not room for any fatal accident. Hope this never happens again.

No airline has any "room" for accidents. Nothing makes SAS special in that respect!

Just let us hope that the unrest and accompanied stress among the personnel at norwegian ATC has not contributed to this very serious incident.
747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
 
Oykie
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:35 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 39):
No airline has any "room" for accidents. Nothing makes SAS special in that respect!

Just let us hope that the unrest and accompanied stress among the personnel at Norwegian ATC has not contributed to this very serious incident.

According to http://www.boarding.no/art.asp?id=19726
(in Norwegian only) the Norwegian pilots association is claiming that the reason why the TCAS system reacts so many times in Norway is due to shortage in staff. At the time of the incident there was only one controller at Røyken ATC. An inspection has begun to see if there was a fault with the STCA (Short Term Conflict Alert) system at Røyken.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
User avatar
TS-IOR
Posts: 3505
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:44 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:02 pm

It is wiser to follow the TCAS instructions. They couldn't be contradictory. The Bodensee drama was because a confusion between the TCAS and the ATC orders.
Next flight TUN-YUL Tunisair A330-243.
 
afay1
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:37 pm

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:43 am

It wasn't really confusion. Both planes had functioning TCAS, the lone over-worked controller told the Tu-154 to override it twice, directly causing the deadly collision. Russian pilots tend to trust ATC over TCAS, which makes sense logically.
 
MrMcCoy
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:17 am

RE: SAS And KLM In Near Collision

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:38 am

Swiss controllers sure do catch their fair amount of hell.
It only takes five years to go from rumor to standard operating procedure.