Halibut
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Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:33 am

Looks like Airbus is going to spend 1/2 a billion on composite technology ! Yet, Airbus just recently dogged Boeing regarding composites , but now appears to agree with Boeing's strategy in the future of composite aircraft .

What's up ?



http://www.flightinternational.com/A...ats+200-order+target+for+A350.html

He says too that the price of fuel would be the main factor in determining how fast industry moves to developing an aircraft overwhelmingly built using composites. "If fuel is very expensive, you need an ultra-light aircraft, even if the cost of manufacture is higher," he says.

Airbus will spend €450 million ($540 million) in 2007-08 in developing composite technology. "Low cost industrial composites are the big challenge," he says. "But we will be ready to react."

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...osite+claims+infuriate+Boeing.html

Composite claims infuriate Boeing
Boeing is reassuring airlines over the use of composite material for the primary structure of the 787 following claims by Airbus that the new Boeing twinjet could be grounded “because of a scratch in the paint”.


Halibut

[Edited 2006-01-09 17:49:55]
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BestWestern
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/c-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:38 am

Where does the article state that Airbus agrees with boeing? Just because Airbus are investing in composite research, doesnt mean that they will follow Boeings composite usage, especially since Boeing followed Airbus into composites.
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DAYflyer
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/c-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:47 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 1):
Just because Airbus are investing in composite research, doesnt mean that they will follow Boeings composite usage, especially since Boeing followed Airbus into composites.

Boeing followed Airbus into composites? Ever heard of the US Air Force? They have had composites in aircraft since 1976. I hardly think they are following Airbus into composite use. Yes I know Airbus used composites first on civilian aircraft.

Airbus is following Boeing's lead in the use of an all composite fuselage. How you ask? They got smacked hard by the success of the 787 launch and are now playing catch-up, because they failed to take composites to the next level in commercial aircraft.
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Kangar
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 2):
Boeing followed Airbus into composites? Ever heard of the US Air Force? They have had composites in aircraft since 1976. I hardly think they are following Airbus into composite use. Yes I know Airbus used composites first on civilian aircraft.

Whoa - Careful there, that comment might lead readers to think Boeing's civil aviation unit benefitted from developments researched and bankrolled by Military spending!
 
Halibut
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 1):
Where does the article state that Airbus agrees with boeing?



Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
http://www.flightinternational.com/A...ats+200-order+target+for+A350.html

He says too that the price of fuel would be the main factor in determining how fast industry moves to developing an aircraft overwhelmingly built using composites. "If fuel is very expensive, you need an ultra-light aircraft, even if the cost of manufacture is higher," he says.



Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
Airbus will spend €450 million ($540 million) in 2007-08 in developing composite technology. "Low cost industrial composites are the big challenge," he says. "But we will be ready to react."

There !

Halibut
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BestWestern
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 2):
Yes I know Airbus used composites first on civilian aircraft.

This is a civil aviation forum... Boeing followed Airbus into using composites on civil aircraft.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 2):
Airbus is following Boeing's lead in the use of an all composite fuselage

Where have Airbus stated that?
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Halibut
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 5):
Where have Airbus stated that?



Quoting BestWestern (Reply 5):
Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 2):
Airbus is following Boeing's lead in the use of an all composite fuselage

Where have Airbus stated that?



Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
Airbus will spend €450 million ($540 million) in 2007-08 in developing composite technology. "Low cost industrial composites are the big challenge," he says. "But we will be ready to react."

There !

Halibut
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BestWestern
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:22 am

Where in that statement does Airbus say that they agree with Boeing? It doesnt.

Where in that statement does Airbus state that Airbus will introduce an

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 2):
all composite fuselage.

It doesnt.
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2H4
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:37 am




Quoting BestWestern (Reply 5):

This is a civil aviation forum... Boeing followed Airbus into using composites on civil aircraft.



Irrevelent. Composites don't care whether they're being used in civil or military applications.




2H4


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TheSonntag
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:41 am

B followed A in terms of Widebody Twins. They followed A in terms of FBW. Now A follows B in building a composite aircraft.

So what? Should A build a steel airplane like the Junkers F-13 from 1920?
 
Halibut
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 7):
Where in that statement does Airbus say that they agree with Boeing? It doesnt.



Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
He says too that the price of fuel would be the main factor in determining how fast industry moves to developing an aircraft overwhelmingly built using composites. "If fuel is very expensive, you need an ultra-light aircraft, even if the cost of manufacture is higher," he says.

Airbus will spend €450 million ($540 million) in 2007-08 in developing composite technology. "Low cost industrial composites are the big challenge," he says. "But we will be ready to react."

Airbus now sees the significance of a composite aircraft so much so that they will now spend over 1/2 a billion dollars in composite technology .

Curious that Airbus actknowlegdes this fact soon after the 787 has proven to be a run away hit !

Noel states :

" overwhelmingly built using composites. "If fuel is very expensive, you need an ultra-light aircraft, even if the cost of manufacture is higher," he says."


Looks like Boeing has already spent millions on composite tech. & are a step ahead of Airbus .

If you can't see that Bestwestern , well ?...Then *-!

And you say I am impartial !  boggled 

Halibut
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 9):
B followed A in terms of Widebody Twins. They followed A in terms of FBW. Now A follows B in building a composite aircraft.

uh, yeah.

Airbus was barely a player in the 70s. MD and Lockheed and Boeing were ALL trying to build a widebody long range twin. Did Airbus succeed where the others failed? Depends. The original A300 didn't have the range or ability required of the DC10 or L1011 (which if equipped with two engines as initially planned would have surpassed the A300 still), nor of the 767 when it was proposed and designed.

It's one thing to copy something that works (FBW), another to look at something that doesn't work and make it work (original A300, DC10, L1011).

Airbus chose to go twin rather than to go long range, and the idea of short range twins wasn't new. DC9 and 737 were both shortrange twins. A300 was just a bigger short range twin using engines developed for long range widebodies.

boeing led the way into long range twins where Airbus, MD and lockheed all failed.
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
What's up?

I think that's pretty clear: Airbus will be investing massively in future technologies in the field of composites just like they have in the past.
Half a billion euro is not peanuts, that's BIG money. It can only mean one thing, the successor to the A320 is going to be a lightweight composite plane!

What is worth discussing is however is why many people here have actually come to believe A. is opposed to the use of composites in large structures? Just WHEN and WHERE did A. ever say composite materials are not the way to go? Some people on A.net have always said A said so, but I have never seen a statement from A. saying such.

What A. has repeatedly said is that there are still many issues unresolved with a more important use of composites than currently done and that in their view, the theoretical know-how and much more so the methods of use of this new know-how are not completely matured to offer entire composite fuselage structures already.

It is true that the theoretical know-how on composites has increased steadily and steeply and has certainly reached a pivotal point so as to start dreaming of entire composite structures: The A380 for instance has a fuselage partly made of glare, which until now is the most technological advanced use of composites in an airliner ever! On the other hand, at present nobody really knows just yet how many and what kind of unresolved and unexpected issues there still are to be solved with entire structures. The step from parts of fuselages to entire fuselages might seem only modest, but includes some vital transitions not to be minimized.

Secondly -and much more importantly- there are still unresolved issues with the long-term weir of these structures during intensive use and the best way to check, maintain and if needed repair them. Here, theoretical knowledge alone won't help, only their actual use can bring solutions and A. in my view rightfully put a big question mark next to B.'s extremely confident idea that 'all will be fine, no need to worry', when in fact nobody really knows for sure yet.

This is however something completely different than saying they are against their use, but then nuances have never had a place on A.net, where all needs to be simply black or white.
 
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:01 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 8):

Irrevelent. Composites don't care whether they're being used in civil or military applications.

I have to agree with BestWestern on this one. Civilian aircraft have to endure more life cycles than military aircraft.

Quoting Halibut (Reply 10):
Curious that Airbus actknowlegdes this fact soon after the 787 has proven to be a run away hit !

A success yes. But a run away hit? As I see it, the A350 is not doing all that bad either. And guess what it does not have a full composite fuselage.

Quoting Halibut (Reply 10):
Looks like Boeing has already spent millions on composite tech. & are a step ahead of Airbus .

What were you expecting? They are building the B787. Am sure that Boeing has spent a good sum on research.

Dont forget that the A380 is currently the leading airplane in terms of composites used, nearly 25% if am not mistaken. Am sure that Airbus is well aware of composites, like am sure that they have done their homework too.

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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:05 am




Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 12):
Secondly -and much more importantly- there are still unresolved issues with the long-term weir of these structures during intensive use and the best way to check, maintain and if needed repair them.



Unresolved issues? Which ones are you referring to, specifically? I find it hard to believe that A) operational issues haven't been encountered and addressed in the past 20 or so years of military use, and B) the FAA will certify an aircraft with said issues.

Boeing isn't stupid. They're not going to invest this heavily in something that isn't all but a sure thing, nor is it in their best interest to misrepresent the facts.




2H4


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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 13):
A success yes. But a run away hit? As I see it, the A350 is not doing all that bad either. And guess what it does not have a full composite fuselage.

Exactly!! The A350 has supposedly reached it's 200 goal SO it looks like it's doing fine. The 787 did have a head start remember and yes the 787 is a hit but so is the A350.
 
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 13):
I have to agree with BestWestern on this one. Civilian aircraft have to endure more life cycles than military aircraft.

Tell that to the guys flying C-17s or KC-135s.
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting Kangar (Reply 3):
Whoa - Careful there, that comment might lead readers to think Boeing's civil aviation unit benefitted from developments researched and bankrolled by Military spending!

Brilliant!

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 1):
Where does the article state that Airbus agrees with boeing? Just because Airbus are investing in composite research, doesnt mean that they will follow Boeings composite usage, especially since Boeing followed Airbus into composites.



Quoting BestWestern (Reply 5):
This is a civil aviation forum... Boeing followed Airbus into using composites on civil aircraft.

Totally agree with Bestwetern on this.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 8):
Irrevelent. Composites don't care whether they're being used in civil or military applications.

A different kettle of fish.
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Stratofortress
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 17):
Quoting Kangar (Reply 3):
Whoa - Careful there, that comment might lead readers to think Boeing's civil aviation unit benefitted from developments researched and bankrolled by Military spending!

Brilliant!

I think you meant to say ignorant. Military generally tends to break new grounds and push the technology limits. Once they feel the technology no longer is a matter of national security it starts trickling down into civilian world. EADS does the same thing with Airbus. So the sarcastic argument above holds no water. A (EADS) and B receive support from their respective defense divisions.

Airbus is finally realizing that they are getting spanked in the widebody market, and it is time to catch up to Boeing in respect to composites, hence the heavy investment. While A was pumping money into 380, Boeing was busy working on composites.

Bottom line here is that Boeing has outmaneuvered Airbus, and is focused on execution, while Airbus is focused on catching up technologicaly.
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting Stratofortress (Reply 18):
While A was pumping money into 380, Boeing was busy working on composites.

Which is why the A380 has the most advanced use of composites so far... and B was trying to sell the aluminium sonic cruiser for a few years....

Black and white ideas, see what I mean....

[Edited 2006-01-09 20:04:47]
 
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:50 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 5):
This is a civil aviation forum... Boeing followed Airbus into using composites on civil aircraft.

I agree.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 2):
Boeing followed Airbus into composites? Ever heard of the US Air Force?

As said before that is totally different. You cant use that to say the Airbus followed Boeing into composites.
 
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
boeing led the way into long range twins where Airbus, MD and lockheed all failed.

Yes, the a330 is a massive failure... Wink

Quoting Halibut (Reply 10):
Looks like Boeing has already spent millions on composite tech. & are a step ahead of Airbus

I'm willing to bet that Airbus has also spent a lot of money in that research. As mentioned before, the a380 is so far the aircraft with the biggest percentage of composites. (until the 787 flies of course). Besides, the a400M project also gives them a lot of research into composites.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 12):
the successor to the A320 is going to be a lightweight composite plane!

Most likely yes, especially after these comments.
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 20):
As said before that is totally different. You cant use that to say the Airbus followed Boeing into composites.

All you seem to keep doing is attaching "I agree" or whatever to someone else's post. You have yet to post any facts explaining why you agree. You sound like the boy who kicks the guy who got beat up by five other guys at the end of the fight. No courage to jump in you just do your little thing at the end. Please explain yourself with concrete hardcore facts.
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WINGS
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 16):
Tell that to the guys flying C-17s or KC-135s.

How many hours per day are the C-17 and KC-135 up in the air?

How many Takeoff and landings do they perform in one day?

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Stratofortress
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 19):
Which is why the A380 has the most advanced use of composites so far... and B was trying to sell the sonic cruiser for a few years....

But 380 is still not the all composite airplane. The 350 is not all composite. Airbus is lagging behind.

SonicCruiser was a strategical diversion.
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RichardPrice
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:03 am

If anything, the smaller business jet manufacturers were the ones to get there first with composites to this magnitude as a percentage of the total aircraft.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting Stratofortress (Reply 24):
SonicCruiser was a strategic diversion.

OMG.... are you already competing for the most hilarious post of 2006 or what???
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 21):
Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 12):
the successor to the A320 is going to be a lightweight composite plane!

Most likely yes, especially after these comments.

I'm glad to hear that $500 million in research will lead to solving the durability and safety concerns surrounding the composite hull articulated by Airbus.
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Halibut
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 21):
the a380 is so far the aircraft with the biggest percentage of composites.

Yes indeed GLARE !

However , is GLARE being used on the a350 ? If not , then Airbus would need to start over , No ?

Halibut
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Halibut
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 26):
Quoting Stratofortress (Reply 24):
SonicCruiser was a strategic diversion.

OMG.... are you already competing for the most hilarious post of 2006 or what???

Looks like it worked ! Not only is Sabenpilot fooled but Airbus as well !

 biggrin 

Halibut
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting Halibut (Reply 28):
However , is GLARE being used on the a350 ? If not , then Airbus would need to start over , No ?

As the A350 design hasn't been frozen yet, there still might be GLARE in it. It's just like with the A vs. B cheerleading matches on A.net, some people are for GLARE and some against.
Don't forget the tail section, the centre wing box, HTP, VTP, floor beams, flaps, wingfences... (yes I know they are already composite on most aircraft, but I thought I might embellish a bit)
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting Stratofortress (Reply 24):
But 380 is still not the all composite airplane. The 350 is not all composite. Airbus is lagging behind.

Why is Airbus lagging behind? Seriously, what law says that the composite used by Boeing is where its at, fullstop and all that jazz?

Airbus is putting $500million into their next generation 'composite technology' - and composites are a huge chemical field. Boeing is using carbon composites in one form, Airbus may use a totally different composite for its hulls which may have differnet characteristics.

Boeing is producing an aircraft with an all composite hull, which gives some benefits in some areas, true. But this also requires a fairly hefty change from the status quo, and while Im sure the 787 will be a success, the cost of moving repair centres from traditional to composite is going to be a not inconsiderable sum.

Airbus may, by 'lagging behind', gain an advantage by having Boeing give airlines some much needed experience with handling composite materials, inspections etc. Also by beginning their own research at a time when Boeing will have the 787 ready to deliver, it may mean that Boeing will be forced to retain the same composite structure they have in the 787 for their newer models of aircraft by way of logistics, while Airbus can use advances to produce lighter materials.

You are mistaking advances to be straight neck and neck ones, while personally I see it as a series of leapfrog moves by both manufacturers.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Composite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 27):
I'm glad to hear that $500 million in research will lead to solving the durability and safety concerns surrounding the composite hull articulated by Airbus.

They will lead to more theoretical know-how, showing us yet unknown practical problems, thus turning general concerns into clearly identified problems, which can be contained by means of satisfactory maintenance procedures.

It is precisely with the easy-going proposed maintenance procedures of Boeing (based on very few practical experience and a rather limited theoretical knowledge) that Airbus has a problem and quite frankly so do I as a professional airline pilot.

Airbus might be somewhat conservative on this issue, but they are certainly on the safest side here. Boeing definitely is on the progressive side of the composite philosophy, but whether they are still on the safest side however.... I really do hope so, but I am not 100% reassured. What Airbus said on the proposed maintenance procedure for the fuselage of the 787 was NO bashing or PR offensive, they expressed concern from many aviation professionals so far unadressed.
 
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 26):
OMG.... are you already competing for the most hilarious post of 2006 or what???

Not at all actually. SonicCruiser started off as legitimate project, however after quickly realizing that this really is not where the market is, Boeing continued to milk the PR buzz until they figured out what to do next i.e. come up with 787.
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shamrock350
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 22):
Please explain yourself with concrete hardcore facts

Boeing may well have used composites on military aircraft but as we all know military and civil aircraft are very different, built for different reasons and in different ways. Airbus used it first and Boeing did later on but Boeing already had experience with composites so they researched just like Airbus and found that it worked so maybe I did not agree with the "Boeing followed Airbus" but Boeing did not use composites with civil aircraft first.
 
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:33 am

Quoting Stratofortress (Reply 33):
Not at all actually. SonicCruiser started off as legitimate project, however after quickly realizing that this really is not where the market is, Boeing continued to milk the PR buzz until they figured out what to do next i.e. come up with 787.

ROTFL.

It is better for your own credibility NOT to continue on this, because I know from first hand (yep some people actually work in airlines, and see it when a tender is written) B. still pushed hard for the SonicCruiser with airlines at the time when you say it was supposedly just a PR buzz....

If you want to make up your own reality, that's fine, but please do so in your dreams only, NOT on this site..
 
PlaneDane
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 19):
Which is why the A380 has the most advanced use of composites so far... and B was trying to sell the aluminium sonic cruiser for a few years....

Aluminum Sonic Cruiser? Please, provide your sources for this claim.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 32):
Boeing definitely is on the progressive side of the composite philosophy, but whether they are still on the safest side however.... I really do hope so, but I am not 100% reassured.

Somehow, I really doubt that anyone at Boeing loses any sleep over whether a Boeing Basher like Sabenapilot approves of the innovations and technology it uses or not.
 
Stratofortress
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 35):
It is better for your own credibility NOT to continue on this, because I know from first hand (yep some people actually work in airlines, and see it when a tender is written) B. still pushed hard for the SonicCruiser with airlines at the time when you say it was supposedly just a PR buzz....

Yep, and some people work for manufacturers.
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
Looks like Airbus is going to spend 1/2 a billion on composite technology ! Yet, Airbus just recently dogged Boeing regarding composites , but now appears to agree with Boeing's strategy in the future of composite aircraft .

What's up ?

You have been told more than once in other threads that Airbus have no issue with the way Boeing are using composites on the B787. What they have issue with is Boeing's insistence that visual inspection of an aircraft involved in a ramp incident is sufficient when said aircraft is built of composite materials which can be badly damaged and weakened while remaining visually normal.

You decided not to listen to this as it doesn't appear to fit your agenda.

Boeing are pushing for visual inspection only certification of the airframe because boroscopic inspection of aircraft involved in ramp incidents is both expensive and time consuming. If they are granted this certification, I for one will never fly on a 787. If they are not granted this certification, which for safety's sake I hope and suspect will be the case, the 787 is going to look a lot less attractive to a lot of airlines.
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sabenapilot
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 36):
Somehow, I really doubt that anyone at Boeing loses any sleep over whether a Boeing Basher like Sabenapilot approves of the innovations and technology it uses or not.

Certainly not! which is why many people feel relieved to hear Airbus voiced their concerns, because all of a sudden it DID become a big issue for them then....
 
WAH64D
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting Stratofortress (Reply 37):
Yep, and some people work for manufacturers.

Manufacturers of what exactly? Rubber Dinosaurs?
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N79969
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting Kangar (Reply 3):
Whoa - Careful there, that comment might lead readers to think Boeing's civil aviation unit benefitted from developments researched and bankrolled by Military spending!

Airbus has benefitted from Pentagon and NASA spending and like to complain. Fly-by-wire flight controls and the A380's 5,000 psi hydraulic system were respectively developed by NASA and under a Pentagon defense contract.
 
n844aa
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 35):
It is better for your own credibility NOT to continue on this, because I know from first hand (yep some people actually work in airlines, and see it when a tender is written) B. still pushed hard for the SonicCruiser with airlines at the time when you say it was supposedly just a PR buzz....

Back when oil was $15/bbl, the Sonic Cruiser was probably a reasonable guess as to the direction the industry might take. But Boeing took their customers' wishes into account and developed a different type of plane that certainly bears the hallmarks of being a potential success. I dont see how you can characterize that as anything much a smart business move.

If Boeing had built the Sonic Cruiser in this environment, that would have been a stupid move worthy of derision. But I don't care how long they pushed it so long as they a.) learned something from the experience -- which they apparently did and b.) didn't build the damn thing -- which they definitely did not.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
mbj2000
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:52 am

Right!

And besides that commercial aviation doesn't have the money and ressources that military has got in order to keep the stuff up and flying!
How much does cost a B-2 Spirit? Would an EK have the money to service such a plane?!

So let's keep military out of the discussion.

And btw it was neither A nor B who had first the idea of a composite plane, it was Leonardo da Vinci!

 goodvibes   goodvibes 

Quoting WINGS (Reply 23):
Quoting N328KF (Reply 16):Tell that to the guys flying C-17s or KC-135s.
How many hours per day are the C-17 and KC-135 up in the air?

How many Takeoff and landings do they perform in one day?
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Stratofortress
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 40):
Manufacturers of what exactly? Rubber Dinosaurs?

Actually, they are ALL composite dinosaurs. Someday, we will teach Airbus how to do it.

Your post is very mature, though. You would be better off listening, rather than bashing. You may actually learn something.
Forever New Frontiers
 
N79969
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 39):
Certainly not! which is why many people feel relieved to hear Airbus voiced their concerns, because all of a sudden it DID become a big issue for them then....

You write some absurd things but this most be the most absurd.

I guarantee that exactly nobody fits this description. I am sure that Qantas, Air Canada, Korean, and Northwest and so on were not just waiting for Airbus to ask these questions because they lacked the courage or intelligence to think of them on their own. Airbus has done no service to the public and could be tarring its own reputation by its feigned concern for safety in this case.

The durability and airworthiness of the B787 is a matter to be resolved between Boeing, regulators, and airline customers. Airbus has no role whatsoever. No one is relieved.

To cast Airbus self-serving remarks as some sort of service to the public is just asinine.

[Edited 2006-01-09 21:01:47]
 
2H4
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:02 am




Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 43):
And besides that commercial aviation doesn't have the money and ressources that military has got in order to keep the stuff up and flying!
How much does cost a B-2 Spirit? Would an EK have the money to service such a plane?!

So let's keep military out of the discussion.



If composite technology is so cost-prohibitive, how do you explain the likes of Raytheon's composite corporate jets?

Composite airframe technology is directly descended from military applications. Composite technology is also becoming less and less expensive, and the construction techniques will soon be less than their aluminum counterparts.

So let's not bury our heads in the sand. Let's keep military IN the discussion.  Wink




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 7):
Where in that statement does Airbus state that Airbus will introduce an

They will be forced to do so to remain competitive. If the Boeing's composite aircraft save too much fuel, then Airbus has no choice but to follow suit or go out of business.

Unless of course you think that the airlines will enjoy spending up to 25% more on fuel.
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LifelinerOne
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
boeing led the way into long range twins where Airbus, MD and lockheed all failed.

Now tell me which large twins McD and Lockheed designed and built...?

And what is the A330 exactly?

Cheers!  wave 
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RichardPrice
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RE: Airbus Agrees With Boeing On Compsite A/C-?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 47):
They will be forced to do so to remain competitive. If the Boeing's composite aircraft save too much fuel, then Airbus has no choice but to follow suit or go out of business.

Why do they *have* to go composite? There are plenty of materials out there with better weight savings than composite, and are easier to work with, but the cost is much higher currently.

In 5 years that may be totally different, composite may be the heaviest material considered.

Theres absolutely no reason why Airbus *must* introduce a fully composite aircraft.