luisde8cd
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History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:41 am

Hey guys,

After spending some weeks in Mexico, I became interested in its aviation history, especially the part related to flight to Venezuela. If you know some of the history of flights between both countries, please share with us! Where are you Civilav?


This is what I Know....

Viasa used to fly to both MEX and CUN (DC-8s I believe)

Mexicana sent their 722s before the Airbuses. MX sends the ocassional CCS-CUN-CCS charter in addition of its daily MEX-CCS.

In the last year we have seen MX sending the A320 and B752 from MEX to CCS.

That's all I Know, replies are welcome!

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
juventus
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:16 pm

A Venezuelan friend of mine mentioned that back in the late 80s, an airline in Venezuela operated several DC9s to South American destinations. They also had two brand new 757s which they used for CCS-MIA and CCS-MEX. The airline went belly up. Can't remember the airline's name.
 
AeroMexico777
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:33 am

HI!
That airline I think was AVENSA... Colours were almost the same as those of PanAm...

Regards, AeroMexico777
"When the hope of dying becomes the only reason to live..." Die Laughing (Gothic), Safe little world.
 
AM744
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:36 am

I remember seeing AVENSA 727s on regular basis for quite some time during the late 80s and early 90s.
 
797
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting Juventus (Reply 1):
They also had two brand new 757s which they used for CCS-MIA and CCS-MEX.



Quoting AeroMexico777 (Reply 2):
That airline I think was AVENSA

Yes. Indeed they were two 757s. That was Venezuela's first airline to fly a 757 and newer aircraft by then. They flew them, as you said, to MIA several times a week and some to MEX, I believe.

I heard a while ago about VH going to CUN, but as usual, these rumors are not more than silly jokes!

I expect to see S3 going to MEX soon if they continue to grow as they have been doing so far. They'll probably take care of some US cities before it, such as JFK, and then, apply for MEX.

Cheers!
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
juventus
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting AeroMexico777 (Reply 2):
That airline I think was AVENSA... Colours were almost the same as those of PanAm...

Sounds familiar....
 
stirling
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:40 am

Quoting AeroMexico777 (Reply 2):
That airline I think was AVENSA... Colours were almost the same as those of PanAm...

That's because it began life as a part of the PanAm network of carriers.
Delete this User
 
fly727
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:09 am

Back in the 80's, by the time it was was celebrating its 50th anniversary, Aeromexico scheduled flew to Caracas along with other cities in Central/South America such as Panama City and Bogota. If I recall correctly they used the DC-8-51.

RM  Smile
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
 
civilav
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:14 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Thread starter):
If you know some of the history of flights between both countries, please share with us! Where are you Civilav?

Well Luis, I AM HERE !

Briefly (I can send you a personal mail with more details if you wish), initial flights between Mexico and Venezuela were by neither a Mexican or a Venezuelan airline but by PANAM with links through Guatemala, Panama and Barranquilla to Maracaibo and Caracas soon after the end of WW 2.
The first bilateral was signed in 1952 when Aerovías Guest began regular services to Caracas from Mexico City via Panama. These flights were taken over by Aeronaves de México since 1961 when DC-8 services were introduced on the route. This coincided with VIASA regular services too (twice a week by each carrier) from Caracas and Maracaibo with Convair 880 equipment.
By 1969, Aeronaves and Viasa pooled services with VIASA planes to offer 5 weekly frequencies non-stop. Relations were very close to the point that between 1972 and 1974 VIASA planes (DC-8-53) flew with Venezuelan crew from Caracas to Mexico City and with Mexican crews (Aeronaves had by now become Aeromexico) from Mexico to Los Angeles via La Paz (Baja California) 3 times weekly. Thus Viasa had access to another destination in the US with acceptable payloads and traffic.
It may be of interest to know that between April and October 1973 there was an additional weekly Caracas-Maracaibo-Mexico City service with DC-8-33 planes.
VIASA, throughout the rest of the 70s and early 80s was the sole operator on the route till 1984 when the Venezuelan deep devaluation (and Mexico's own troubles dating from 1982 when the country defaulted on its foreign debt in what became known as the year of the Burro-Dollar) meant traffic loads were too low and yields insufficient to sustain services. VIASA gave up this route altogether in 1985 and Avensa then applied for a licence to run flights between both countries' capitals. This was granted in 1986 with authority to operate up to 4 weekly flights via Panama City. Boeing 727 were initially used, later changed to B. 737-300 as from 1991 with the occasional B. 757-200 flight when demand warranted. Avensa signed a codeshare agreement with Mexicana thus paving the way for that airline's entry into the playing field.
In the meantime, VIASA had been transferred to IBERIA and they started services to Cancun from Caracas which lasted from 1993 till the airline's demise in January 1997.
Aeromexico, in the early 1990s, now privatised, resumed regular Mexico City to Caracas services but these were cancelled after the 1994 Mexican economic crisis.
Avensa gave up the route, too, in 1998 and Mexicana (still codesharing till then) became the sole operator upgrading services to daily flights with B. 727-200 equipment.
In 2000, Venezuela, Panama and Mexico signed a new "trilateral" air agreement which simplified matters (Panama, for example. had never allowed either Mexican or Venezuelan carriers 5th freedom rights but this changed as a result of Copa's clever creation of the "hub of the Americas" concept) and permitted now Mexicana and COPA to offer services with full 5th freedom rights.
In 2001 Mexicana resumed briefly services between Caracas and Cancun twice weekly on its regular Caracas-Mexico City run but these were suspended after 3 months owing to very poor loads and traffic.
The current air agreement between Mexico and Venezuela allow for two cities to be served by designated carriers in each country. Only one carrier per country is permitted. Cancun has a special air regime which is outside the scope of the air agreement.

I hope this helps Luis... it is very brief and many facts skipped but it gives a general outlook !

Greetings from Cancun !!
 
EddieDude
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:42 am

Wow, certainly a very thorough account. Thanks a lot for the info Hernán!

Quoting Civilav (Reply 8):
The current air agreement between Mexico and Venezuela allow for two cities to be served by designated carriers in each country. Only one carrier per country is permitted.

It is interesting that the bilateral is so restrictive (okay, so CUN has its own regime, but still). It would be great to see more service between the two countries and, especially from the point of view of aviation fanatics, more variety of carriers.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
civilav
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 9):
It is interesting that the bilateral is so restrictive

EddieDude,

Mexico, save the odd agreement here and there with the USA, has not been particularly open about its skies and air treaties in general with other countries, especially, Latin American ones ! This is changing, though, as is the government's apparent willingness to let more competition on the domestic front.

Venezuela has not been all that "open" either and I very much doubt that the current Caracas administration will change its view for the foreseeable future, therefore, it is most unlikely, given present trends, to have your wishes come true !!

It is very intriguing that not a single Venezuelan carrier has bothered to serve the route in what seems like a disdainful attitude towards the Mexico-Venezuela market. Very peculiar indeed and one for which I am at a loss to give a coherent reason particularly given the very high fares charged by all (Taca, Mexicana, Copa, Continental and American).

Greetings from Cancun !
 
AR385
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:07 am

Great account Cicilav, thanks.

I also remember during the 80's seeing only VIASA DC-10-30's at MEX. Why did they use such big planes if the route's loads were not so high?
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting Civilav (Reply 8):
VIASA gave up this route altogether in 1985

I remember Viasa operating an Inauguration Flight to MEX with the DC-8, with the then president of that airline (Márquez Áñez if I recall correctly?) on board and that particular flight suffered a hydraulic failure, not such a good omen...

This must have been somewhere between '82 and '85 I guess, VA not flying the route for a while and then starting it up again.
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
ghost77
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:59 am

Not only Dc10s but I have also seen pictures and in my private collection Viasa's B7472 at MEX back in 1981/1982.

ghost77 APM
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
civilav
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 12):
remember Viasa operating an Inauguration Flight to MEX with the DC-8, with the then president of that airline (Márquez Áñez if I recall correctly?


Alfonso Márquez Añez was President of Viasa between 1976 and 1979 when the airline was fully nationalised and its President appointed by the Venezuelan Government. Till then (1976 when Panam pulled out of Avensa and precipitated the purchase of the 49% of VIASA stockholding in private hands), its board of Directors including its long-time serving President (Oscar Machado Zuloaga), had been free of political meddling.
VIASA began regular CCS-MEX services as far back as 1962 when its own fleet consisted of 3 Convair 880-22Ms (its European services were operated with leased KLM planes). If Márquez Añez was on a plane to Mexico City in the late 70s I can assure you 100% that it was not on an inaugural flight but maybe the first DC-8-63 service as the airline increased its DC-10-30 fleet.
The airline President between 1979 and 1984 was Elías López Ortega.
Viasa gave up the route completely and totally as of August 1985 during the tenure of Luis Ignacio Mendoza as President whe the airline shrank in size and, inter alia, abrogated its close relationship with KLM in favour of a liaison with Swissair.


Quoting AR385 (Reply 11):
Why did they use such big planes if the route's loads were not so high?

The reason was the deep economic crisis in both, Mexico and Venezuela. In Mexico it began in Sep. 1982 with the nationalisation of the banking sector, the default on the country's sovereign debt and an accompanying devaluation / inflation which then sent the nation into economic turmoil which was to last till the arrival of Salinas de Gortari's government.
In Venezuela, they began with the country's steep devaluation in February 1983 and a capital flight with part exchange controls. Suddenly, Venezuelan's assets were worth less than half their previous value and its currency no longer "mighty".
Both situations hindered traffic between both countries and, since VIASA had got rid of its DC-8 equipment, its sole fleet consisted of DC-10-30s far too big to sustain services profitably. That was the reason.


Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 13):
Not only Dc10s but I have also seen pictures and in my private collection Viasa's B7472 at MEX back in 1981/1982.

Ghost77, yes, those may have been in 1982 when, for the summer peak months, the airline hired a B 747-200 for its Florida services (Miami and Orlando). I can imagine the odd package flight to Mexico too which was a very popular destination with Venezuelans then.

Greetings from Cancun.
 
AM744
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:13 am

Quoting Civilav (Reply 8):
Aeromexico, in the early 1990s, now privatised, resumed regular Mexico City to Caracas services but these were cancelled after the 1994 Mexican economic crisis.

I seem to remember that AM operated the route MEX-PTY-CCS (as well as ACA-MEX-YYZ-YUL) until 1988 when it went bankrupt, both operated with DC-8-51 and later with some modern DC-8 variant that escapes me at the moment. To my knowledge these routes were not ever reactivated by AM, but given to MX by some Cintra holding decision during the 90s. I could be wrong, so please correct me if that's the case.
 
civilav
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:28 am

AM744,

The airline faced trouble shortly after the Salinas government took over in 1988. As you may recall, AM was privatised and it began an expansion "binge" that saw it take over Aeroperú too.

Mexicana was operating "through the back door" so to speak in liaison with Avensa (codeshare agreement - domestic Mexican points served by MX, the trunk route to Venezuela served by VE as well as domestic points in Venezuela) but the officially designated carrier on the Mexican side was Aeroméxico.

When both, the airline and the country faced once more economic difficulties in 1994 after the handover to the Zedillo government in December that year, AM stopped serving the route as well as return Aeroperú to the Peruvian Government.

Mexicana became the sole carrier after Avensa also pulled out in 1998.

Hope that helps !
 
luisde8cd
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:24 pm

Woah, CivilAv, looks like you'll never stop to impress us with your detailed information that you share with us.

By the way, is there currently a Venezuelan airline holding the rights for the MEX route?

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
2travel2know
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:43 pm

In Panama, The MEX-CCS route was called La Ruta de las Telenovelas = The Soapopera Route.
Been Mexico DF and Caracas the places where many soapoperas were produced in Latinameica, It was common to see the "stars" flying it between those cities.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:44 pm

Quoting Civilav (Reply 14):
The airline President between 1979 and 1984 was Elías López Ortega.

That's the one I mean. The other name stuck because it has been coming up frequently lately as his niece now lives in the Netherlands.
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
AM744
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting Civilav (Reply 8):
Aeromexico, in the early 1990s, now privatised, resumed regular Mexico City to Caracas services but these were cancelled after the 1994 Mexican economic crisis.

Now, the question is if AM flew to CCS with its own metal during those years. I think they didn't though I don't know for sure. During those years the DC-8 was already gone and I'm willing to bet that CCS has not ever seen AM 757's nor MD-80s in scheduled service.

Quoting Civilav (Reply 16):
Mexicana was operating "through the back door" so to speak in liaison with Avensa (codeshare agreement - domestic Mexican points served by MX, the trunk route to Venezuela served by VE as well as domestic points in Venezuela) but the officially designated carrier on the Mexican side was Aeroméxico.

What does the last statement mean? Was it some kind of codeshare? Did AM issued the tickets but the flight was ultimately operated by AVENSA?

Regards.
 
civilav
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting AM744 (Reply 20):
Did AM issued the tickets but the flight was ultimately operated by AVENSA?

AM744 I presume you mean Mexicana ? Aeroméxico was the appointed carrier and had no need to codeshare with Avensa, its competitor then.
Mexicana, however, slipped into the market owing to its ties with Avensa, that is what I meant by "through the back door". As regards your question, Mexicana would issue tickets say, from Acapulco to Porlamar, by means of this codeshare agreement but its planes would only fly the Acapulco-Mexico segment. The rest would be on an Avensa plane with Avensa flight numbers too. It would have been illegal to issue tickets with MX flight numbers when it was not authorised to fly the route.
Incidentally, Aeromexico did fly to Caracas in the early 90s with Boeing 757 equipment, sometimes with its "own metal", sometimes bearing Aeroperú's colours (of which it was the owner for a while).

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 17):
By the way, is there currently a Venezuelan airline holding the rights for the MEX route?

Luis, the current nominal designated carrier for the Caracas-Mexico City route is Aeropostal. This was awarded in 1987 by the then Caldera government and not revoked or amended since. It was even ratified in the protocol signed in 2000 when the new air treaty between both countries was agreed upon.

Greetings from Cancun !
 
LatinPlane
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:52 am

As you correctly point out, Aerovias Guest Mexico was the pioneer. The airline went even further by serving Curacao from Caracas, as its terminus to its South American route. For a few years also, Aerovias Guest and Mexicana de Aviacion cooperated and Mexicana's Comet's were put on the MEX-CCS-CUR route.

Quoting Civilav (Reply 8):
VIASA, throughout the rest of the 70s and early 80s was the sole operator on the route till 1984 when the Venezuelan deep devaluation (and Mexico's own troubles dating from 1982 when the country defaulted on its foreign debt in what became known as the year of the Burro-Dollar) meant traffic loads were too low and yields insufficient to sustain services. VIASA gave up this route altogether in 1985

…I'm not quite sure if this is correct. I have Aeronaves de Mexico material clearly stating that they flew MEX-PTY-CCS and MEX-BOG between the 60s all the way till its bankruptcy in 1988. VIASA was not the sole operator of the route - unless perhaps it was for a very short period. As, AM744 correctly points out, AM's DC-8s were specifically used for CCS, BOG, PTY as well as JFK. The reason why the South American service was never reinstated when the new AeroMexico was created was because the new management decided to not return the old DC-8s to service, as part of its plan to make it a leaner more efficient carrier concentrated on its core markets. The old management of AM had unsuccessfully tried to retire the venerable 8s, but due to Pilot union opposition - alleging that retiring the DC-8 fleet would result in massive job losses and opportunities (believe it or not!) - had managed to completely stall progress.


I also believe that it is not AVENSA that you see operating 757s to MEX. Well, you see AVENSA aircraft, but it is in fact an aircraft that is wet-leased to Air Panama, which operated into MEX until it goes bankrupt.

Although there was a small amount of traffic between the two points, it clearly seems that there wasn't too much demand for the route. When AVENSA took over it almost always operated the route with nothing bigger than a 727-100, taking into consideration that this was also a flight shared with Panama. When Mexicana took over the flight, it used the 727-200 until 2000 - 2001, when they seem to have witness a growth in demand and started scheduling the 757. Soon after, Mexicana made by choice/or was forced to fly each destination with its own flight and the route was split into two.

Lastly, it is quite interesting to see how Mexican/Venezuelan relations have changed over these past five years. In 1999, when the mudslide catastrophe practically collapsed the State of Vargas and shut down communications between Maiquetia and Caracas, newly appointment President Fox of Mexico was one of the first, if not the first(?) to land its Fuerza Aerea Mexicana 727 and Lockheed Hurcules at Maiquetia bringing much needed aid and equipment to the affected area. I can still hear newly appointed President Hugo Chavez stating that he would forever be grateful to Mexico for being such a kindhearted brother! I guess, he forgot!

 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 11):
Great account Cicilav, thanks.

I also remember during the 80's seeing only VIASA DC-10-30's at MEX. Why did they use such big planes if the route's loads were not so high?

Because VIASA was a very very innefficient operation. They also flew their DC-10s to other Latin American operations that did not warrant such a large aircraft simply because it was backed up by the never ending support of an oil rich economy, and for the sole purpose of prestige.

 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
civilav
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting Latinplane (Reply 22):
In 1999, when the mudslide catastrophe practically collapsed the State of Vargas and shut down communications between Maiquetia and Caracas, newly appointment President Fox

LatinPlane,

All I have written so far about Mexico and Venezuela is 100% true as far as air routes and dates are concerned.

Regarding your comment that I quote above, I would like to remind you that Vicente Fox was elected President of Mexico in August 2000 and took power in December that year. The mudslide in Venezuela's Littoral occurred on Wednesday December 15th 1999, almost a year before Fox became officially President of Mexico.
Chavez and Zedillo had far closer relations than Chavez and Fox have at present.
 
pzurita1
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RE: History Of Venezuela-Mexico Flights

Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting Civilav (Reply 8):
This coincided with VIASA regular services too (twice a week by each carrier) from Caracas and Maracaibo with Convair 880 equipment.

Civilav,

Your info was trully awesemo. Welcome to my Respected List.

Just would like to add that VIASA was already flying to MEX nonstop since 1967 using DC8 (not Convair)

VA780 departed CCS on .2..5. at 9.30. It arrived MEX at noon. Both classes were offered. Tix were not that cheap. It costed US$456 a r/t in First Class (equivalent to US$2,500 in current terms) and US$342 in Tourist (or US$1,880 in 2004 prices).

VA also offered connection services to IAH (PA), LAX (WA), SAT(BN), SAN (WA) from MEX.


I just foudn this VA 1967 timetable with very interesting info... If anyone is interested for a specific route, just let me know.

They had a noticeable extensive network in Caribbean and Europe.

PZ
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