kaitak744
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:12 pm

Now at Air France, most long haul routes are with either the A330, A340, 777-200ER, or 777-300ER. Is Air France phasing out the 747s? Besides CDG-LAX-PPT which is 3x weekly, I don't know of any other destination which still gets regular 747 service.

Their 747 fleet is:
2 747-200 (SUD)
2 747-300M
6 747-400M
10 747-400

They have a total of 20 operating 747s. So, where are they?
 
N1120A
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:20 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
I don't know of any other destination which still gets regular 747 service.

YUL gets a regular upgrade to a 744 in the summer. ORY-RUN is a 744 as well. AF990 to JNB is a 744. Most of the 747's destinations for AF (other than LAX and YUL) are mostly tourist and VFR destinations.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
kaitak744
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:24 pm

So, if most of them serve tourist destinations, will they be fitted with the new cabin?
 
N1120A
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:29 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 2):

So, if most of them serve tourist destinations, will they be fitted with the new cabin?

All the 744s have the NEV cabin. They have been converted from 3-class to 2-class. There are some with more Y seats that go to ultra-high density destinations. Others that have more Business seats go to places like LAX.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Checo77
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:41 pm

CCS is a 744 destinantion as well as Mauricius. What about KIX or PVG? Probably a 744 destinationa as well.
Adam
Czech Boeing lover living in Lima
 
waterpolodan
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:49 pm

I don't know whether it is seasonal or what, but every time I've seen an air france plane coming in to land in MIA, it's been a 744.
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:23 pm

One of their B747-300's are due to fly CDG-EDI next month for the rugby.

There aren't many sightings of these aircraft, i don't know where they are usually.

Thanks
Mike
 
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LTU932
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:37 pm

Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 5):
I don't know whether it is seasonal or what, but every time I've seen an air france plane coming in to land in MIA, it's been a 744.

I believe that's because AF, as well as BA and LH operate 747s into MIA. Just checked the AF timetable and it confirms their CDG-MIA flight is operated with a 744.

Quoting Checo77 (Reply 4):
What about KIX or PVG?

According to AF.com, KIX is a 777-300ER, while PVG is operated with a 777-200ER on flight AF112 and another flight, AF114, is a codeshare flight operated by MU with an A346.
 
N1120A
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:39 pm

Quoting Checo77 (Reply 4):
What about KIX or PVG? Probably a 744 destinationa as well.

Both 777 destinations

Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 5):
I don't know whether it is seasonal or what, but every time I've seen an air france plane coming in to land in MIA, it's been a 744.

You are correct sir, year round 744.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
rpaillard
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:51 pm

SFO seems to be served by 747-400, to
FLY SKYTEAM JETS
 
jasepl
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:00 pm

Right now, AF fly to at least the following destinations with the 747s:

CCS
DEL
FDF
GIG
HAV
JNB
LAX-PPT
MIA
MRU
PTP
PUJ
RUN
SDQ
 
skyone
Posts: 268
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:02 pm

MEX is served by a 747 and a 777-200ER. The daily fly is a 777 and then 3 times a week they send the 747 on a second fly.
 
jasepl
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Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:07 pm

Quoting Rpaillard (Reply 9):
SFO seems to be served by 747-400, to

SFO is a 343 service right now. It will become 744 for the summer though.
 
TGV
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:42 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
All the 744s have the NEV cabin.

Not yet !

Flew CDG-CCS last Dec 28th and it was still an old config 744.
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
SAS-A321
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:46 pm

Is the 744 for CCS a combi?
It's Scandinavian
 
TGV
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting SAS-A321 (Reply 14):
Is the 744 for CCS a combi?

No, there is not any 744 operating as combi in the AF fleet (some ex combi have been modified).

[Edited 2006-01-10 14:03:07]
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
hinckley
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:34 am

Does anyone know whether the CDG-JNB 744 has the upgraded cabin?
 
kaitak744
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:00 am

Is Air France planning to retire the 747s anytime soon?
 
SAS-A321
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:15 am

Is the old configuration without PTVs?
It's Scandinavian
 
Lufthansa747
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 6):
One of their B747-300's are due to fly CDG-EDI next month for the rugby.

There aren't many sightings of these aircraft, i don't know where they are usually.

ORY-Caribbean I believe.
Air Asia Super Elite, Cebu Pacific Titanium
 
jasepl
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:55 am

In the summer, the 747s will be used on the following routes from Paris:

CAY
CCS
FDF
GIG
HAV
JNB
LAX
MIA
MRU
PPT
PTP
PUJ
RUN
SDQ
SFO
YUL

So it doesn't look like they're going anywhere soon.
 
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Francoflier
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:36 am

The -300 'cattle coaches' fly ORY-PTP and ORY-PPR all year round I think.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
LX23
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:36 am

Since almost all of them are supposed to be in the new configs, which 744s have PTVs throughout all of Y, and which only on the upper deck? Anyone know registrations? (Maybe FlySSC?)
 
AlitaliaMD11
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:15 am

JFK will also be a summer destination for the 747-400.
No Vueling No Party
 
ContinentalEWR
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:14 am

The 747-400's operating from ORY will be replaced with 777-300's.
 
EPCOT
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:17 am

Air France now flies the B777-300ER into IAD from CDG with 370 seats. A B747-400 would have around 400 seats. For the difference of 30 seats, they only use two engines, have greater fuel efficiency, and have greater dispatch reliability. I have spoken to some British Airways managers who prefer their B777-200 service over B747-400 service because of the comparative reliability. I hate to see the B747-400 go away, but the future belongs to twins.
 
Dreamflight767
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:20 am

AF sends the 744 to SFO SOMETIMES over winter. Rarely but it does happen.
 
N1120A
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:47 am

Quoting EPCOT (Reply 25):
I have spoken to some British Airways managers who prefer their B777-200 service over B747-400 service because of the comparative reliability.

The 744 is actually more efficient on a CASM basis than any in service aircraft, including both the 772ER and the 773ER

Quoting EPCOT (Reply 25):
Air France now flies the B777-300ER into IAD from CDG with 370 seats. A B747-400 would have around 400 seats. For the difference of 30 seats, they only use two engines, have greater fuel efficiency, and have greater dispatch reliability.

Twins always have greater DR because they have fewer engines to break. Then again, when you have only 2 engines, you have a more serious issue when 1 engine goes down. The 744 is actually more fuel efficient (and cost efficient) on a per seat basis than the 77W in design configuration. The 77W that AF sends to IAD does not carry 370 seats, rather it carrys 310 seats, 80-90 less than a similarly equipped 744. The 370 seat, 2-class, 77Ws will be used on higher density tourist and VFR routes (not IAD) where AF configures 744s for 450-500 passengers. Either way you look at it, it is not a mere 30 seat difference.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
TGV
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:25 pm

Quoting SAS-A321 (Reply 18):
Is the old configuration without PTVs?

Only 3 744 (newest) have PTVs at all seats.

For the rest of the fleet:
- in the old config, PTVs were installed in F and J only.
- in the new config PTVs are installed in J and in the Y seats installed in the upper deck (replacing J seats there). But the Y main cabin remains without PTV.
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting TGV (Reply 28):
Only 3 744 (newest) have PTVs at all seats.

Probably F-GITJ, GITI and GITH

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/355532/L/

GITJ was on GIG last sunday. Don't know about the other two locations/routes.

Quoting Hinckley (Reply 16):
Does anyone know whether the CDG-JNB 744 has the upgraded cabin?

Not yet. Keep with F+C+Y cabin.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hinckley
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:53 am

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 29):
Quoting Hinckley (Reply 16):
Does anyone know whether the CDG-JNB 744 has the upgraded cabin?

Not yet. Keep with F+C+Y cabin

Thanks Felipe. That means no sleeper seats in business, right?
 
kaitak744
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:32 pm

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 29):
Not yet. Keep with F+C+Y cabin.

Wait, is their new "NEV" cabin only two class?
 
TGV
Posts: 716
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:37 pm

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 31):
Wait, is their new "NEV" cabin only two class?

Yes for 744 (and 343, 332).

Only 772, 773 (and 380) will get the NEV config with 3 classes.
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting EPCOT (Reply 25):
For the difference of 30 seats, they only use two engines, have greater fuel efficiency, and have greater dispatch reliability.

also more cargo volume on the 773er
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 12):
SFO is a 343 service right now. It will become 744 for the summer though.

with the occasional 777-200ER's!
"Up the Irons!"
 
kaitak744
Posts: 2085
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:32 pm

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting TGV (Reply 32):
Yes for 744 (and 343, 332).

Only 772, 773 (and 380) will get the NEV config with 3 classes.

Thanks for clearing that up. So, is it possible that their Orly based 460 seat 747s will have more capacity than their NEV A380? Also, when is the first Orly based (high density) 777-300ER supposed to arrive?
 
TGV
Posts: 716
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:37 pm

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 35):
So, is it possible that their Orly based 460 seat 747s will have more capacity than their NEV A380?

Not really.

As our AF specialist and insider FlySSC (very silent these days, I hope he is vacationing in a place far from the internet  Smile ) wrote some time ago in another thread, the planned config for AF 380 (obviously NEV since the beginning) is 9 First Class / 80 Business Class / 451 Economy for a total of 540 seats.
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting Hinckley (Reply 30):
Thanks Felipe. That means no sleeper seats in business, right?

Yes, not so confortable as the NEV and their new flat bed seats.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
FlySSC
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting LX23 (Reply 22):
Since almost all of them are supposed to be in the new configs, which 744s have PTVs throughout all of Y, and which only on the upper deck? Anyone know registrations? (Maybe FlySSC?)

OK. Here we go concerning AF's B747.

No more B742 PAX in service. The last one (F-GCBJ) was retired last June 2005.

4 B743 are still in service, based at ORY and operate only on ORY-PTP / ORY-FDF.
They will be retired by the end of this year/early 2007 and replaced by the brand new additional B773ER ordered recently. The first one to be based at ORY will be delivered next June and will operate on ORY-FDF, then ORY-PTP and starting Feb.2007 on ORY-RUN.

16 B744 All Pax are in service, among them, 5 are ex-Combi aircraft, converted into all PAX a/c about 5 years ago (F-GISA/B/C/D/E).

From an original configuration of 13P/58J/324Y, the B744 are progressively configured into two different config. :

40J / 393Y
F-GEXA
F-GEXB
F-GISD
F-GISE
F-GITE
F-GITH
F-GITJ

17J/457Y

F-GITA
F-GITB
F-GITC
F-GITD
F-GITF

In both config. The B744 have 57 Y seats at the upper deck, ALL fitted with PTV.

On the main deck, PTV in Y only on a/c F-GITH / F-GITI / F-GITJ.
Those a/c were the last one delivered to AF and already had all the electric/wires components required for installing PTV in Y. Same thing for the upper deck in all the planes : It was already Business Class with PTVs in the old config (hence the PTVs on all a:C at the upper deck).
The older a/c required a long and costly modification to install the PTVs in all the cabins, and AF decided not to do it, as most of those planes will be retired in a medium term.

2 of them (F-GISA & F-GISB) will be converted by Boeing in ALL freighters in 2007. A third one (F-GISC) should be converted in 2008.

Still in the "old" 3 Class config. are : F-GISA, F-GISB, F-GISC, F-GITI.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 35):
So, is it possible that their Orly based 460 seat 747s will have more capacity than their NEV A380?

They will have a configuration of 14J (2x3x2) / 36S ("Alizée Class/Premium Economy 3x3x3) / 422M (Tempo Vacances 3x4x3).
All classes, including M, with PTVs.

Quoting TGV (Reply 36):
As our AF specialist and insider FlySSC (very silent these days, I hope he is vacationing in a place far from the internet )

Thanks for "specialist"  Wink
I was not vacationing. I was in SDQ for work and ... on the beach and far from Internet ...  biggrin 
 
TGV
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Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:37 pm

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 38):
2 of them (F-GISA & F-GISB) will be converted by Boeing in ALL freighters in 2007. A third one (F-GISC) should be converted in 2008.

Still in the "old" 3 Class config. are : F-GISA, F-GISB, F-GISC, F-GITI.

Hello FlySSC, happy to know you were nearby (I was in PMV last week)  Wink

Does this mean F-GISA, F-GISB and F-GISC will not be converted with the NEV cabin ?

I noted that AF460/AF461 was changed to an A343 from end of March to mid-June (not that I complain, all the contrary in fact, I love 343 !), and then back to a 744. Is it to free a 744 for conversion work ?
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5179
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting TGV (Reply 39):
Does this mean F-GISA, F-GISB and F-GISC will not be converted with the NEV cabin ?

Correct.
They won't be refitted with the new NEV seats, at least for F-GISA & F-GISB
F-GISC is scheduled to be converted soon (Jan.16 to Feb.11)

Quoting TGV (Reply 39):
I noted that AF460/AF461 was changed to an A343 from end of March to mid-June (not that I complain, all the contrary in fact, I love 343 !), and then back to a 744. Is it to free a 744 for conversion work ?

I don't know... But I don't think so because as that date, all the B744 should have been converetd (except SA & SB).
It is maybe due to the transition winter program/summer program.
They do it on other destinations sometimes like SFO, which goes from the winter A343 to a B772ER just for a few weeks and then the B744 ....
 
TGV
Posts: 716
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:37 pm

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 40):
Correct.
They won't be refitted with the new NEV seats, at least for F-GISA & F-GISB

Thanks !
This explains why AF is still selling First Class on the CCS flight until November at least.
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
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American 767
Posts: 3924
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 7:27 am

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 38):
2 of them (F-GISA & F-GISB) will be converted by Boeing in ALL freighters in 2007

Hi FlySSC, welcome back! Does that also mean that these two aircraft will have their upper deck length reduced to that of the original 747 variant? All 747-400F's have an upper deck similar to that of the 100/200 variants to save weight. Anyway, thanks a lot for all the info you provided about Air France 747's. I was curious myself where I could fly on one out of CDG, but Jasepl provided the list of destinations currently flown with the 747. Like you say the 300's will be gone next year but I imagine that the 400's will still be in service for at least another five years.

Merci beaucoup et meilleurs voeux pour 2006  Smile.

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium
Ben Soriano
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:36 am

Quoting American 767 (Reply 42):
Does that also mean that these two aircraft will have their upper deck length reduced to that of the original 747 variant? All 747-400F's have an upper deck similar to that of the 100/200 variants to save weight.

They will keep the same upper deck, as reducing the upper deck size would require way too much structural adjustment. Take a look at the CX 747-400BCF to know what they will look like (only dirtier  Silly)


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Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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LTU932
Posts: 13069
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:04 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 43):
They will keep the same upper deck, as reducing the upper deck size would require way too much structural adjustment. Take a look at the CX 747-400BCF to know what they will look like

Or have a look at the KL 747-200B/SUD that was converted to a 747-200B/SF(SUD) and leased to MP.  Wink

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OHLHD
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Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:41 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 29):
Probably F-GITJ, GITI and GITH

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/355532/L/

GITJ was on GIG last sunday. Don't know about the other two locations/routes.

When I went to RIO in Nov, both flight´s I had PTV! On the flight back it was F-GITJ. Just checked on my DIgiCam  Smile.

As the flight from CDG-RIO was full ( me BN 433 Seat 15B Sad ) I suppose they will kepp the 744 on this route.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:05 am

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 45):
As the flight from CDG-RIO was full ( me BN 433 Seat 15B ) I suppose they will kepp the 744 on this route.

All flights to/from Rio from CDG come with at least 390 pax (generally 420 up to 440 due to some childrens). I believe there is no way AF to downgrade GIG and in fact AF/JJ will offer connections to 7 cities from GIG (i don't know how they expect to put more people in the aircrafts...). No short term news on upgrades to Rio.
GIG-CDG for AF is a real money machine and they take care of this route very well using their best 744's, giving Rio the first new lounge and one of the first routes with NEV.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:56 am

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:31 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
VFR destinations.

What would VFR have to do with selection of a 747 over another plane?
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
JAM747
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:17 am

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:34 am

I wonder if we will ever see a AF 747-800 Passenger of freighter? It would be nice to see that.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Air France 747 Being Phased Out?

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:42 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 47):
What would VFR have to do with selection of a 747 over another plane?

VFR in this case stands for Visiting Friends and Relatives, not Visual Flight Rules. The traffic is often lower yield and a lot of seats are sold through consolidators. By using their aircraft with the lowest CASM and configuring it for an even better CASM, AF figures they can maximize the profit potential
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss

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