na
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767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:30 pm


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The scrapping of relatively young aircraft speeds up. This 767 was taken apart just 17 years old, and after seeing only 14 years of service! Delivered in August 1987, no one wanted to fly this jet after the second operator Ansett closed down in 2001. After 3 years rotting away it looked like this. The photo is from late 2004.

The first two or three AA 767s have also been scrapped in recent months, and many more 767s are reportedly condemned to meet the axeman soon. 4 or 5 more AA-birds, and several other ex-Ansett 767s are in different stages of breaking up, 2 ex-TWA are gone and the 3 ex-Transbrasil 767s are in such a bad condition that they are likely to never fly again after only 17-18 years service. And that are not all counted which seem to be awaiting the scrapman this year.

For comparison: I remember the very first 747 that was scrapped in 1991 was 22 years old by then (a single 747SR excluded which was bought and then cut up by Boeing for testing and examing purposes in the late 80s).
 
MEA-707
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:38 pm

the older non-ER versions of the 767-200 aren't very popular on the 2nd hand market. They have relatively many total cycles (compared to the 747), so are less attractive for cargo conversion, and also lacking range, so not suitable for a small airline starting up long haul ops. The 767 is carrying around 2 aisles while only with a capacity for 200-200 passengers, the A-321 or 737-800 or a 2nd hand 757 can almost fulfill the same role and are lighter and much more economical.
I don't think it's a true trend. Some 10 year old A-310s have been scrapped as well, I believe even a 1993 fairly new ex SQ model. In the early 70s, the first 707s, DC-8s, Tridents and Caravelles were already scrapped, being only 10 years old. In the early 1960s, many DC-7s and Super Constellations which were broken up only had 6 years of service beyond them.
In the 1980s, the first 727s and even Tristars went to the cutters.
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:40 pm

NA, the avition market is still quite depressed despite the bumper orders for 2005. Many types of aircraft from the 1980s are not economical to fly today, the 767 and A300/A310 being among them. Not saying they are bad aircraft, but they are small twin aisle aircraft and airlines are increasingly favouring single aisle aircraft for short sectors. Unfortunately there is not enough demand for freighters to use up all these 767s. DL and AN both managed to offload their 767-200s for freighter conversion. Some airlines, such as AC and AA, can still fill the 767-200, but on longhaul or trans-con (three-class) routes, or BY on charter flights (Only 4). Sad to see these aircraft go, but ultimately they are worth more for parts rather than flying again.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
na
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:56 pm

I wonder what will happen with ACs 762s. Some are parked for 4 years now. Hardly thinkable they´ll fly again. I wonder why some aircraft are stored for a very long time without using them for spares. AC has 3 747-200 Combis parked since early 1999, 7 years by now. The oldest one apparently went to Kalitta recently, though it seems for parting out.
 
PanAm747
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:45 am

Didn't Ansett order their initial 767's with a 3-man cockpit?

Maybe this is one of them.

As much as I love the 767, being too narrow for two side-by-side cargo pallets, it has very little use for cargo conversion. Some carriers do, but not on the scale like 747's and MD-11's.
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garpd
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:51 am

IIRC Ansett got their 767s with a 3 man cockpit. This was later refitted with a 2 man cockpit.
But I think the real problem with these aircraft is that they are high cycle aicraft and of the non ER variant.
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leelaw
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
Didn't Ansett order their initial 767's with a 3-man cockpit?

Maybe this is one of them.

From Picture Caption:

"When operated by Ansett this A/C was registered VH-RMO, a standard 2 man flight deck, as opposed to RMD-RMH, that operated with a F/E."
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
muddydwagon
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting panama (Reply 4):
Didn't Ansett order their initial 767's with a 3-man cockpit?

Maybe this is one of them.

No this is not one with a F/E position as stated in the photo description. This bird was originally delivered to ILFC/Britannia.


Cheers Peter
 
JAM747
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting NA (Thread starter):
The first two or three AA 767s have also been scrapped in recent months, and many more 767s are reportedly condemned to meet the axeman soon. 4 or 5 more AA-birds

What did AA replace those 767s with?
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:31 am

Jam747, American replaced their 762s with existing 763s. They had 9 deliveries roughly 2 yrs ago, but the new 763s were to replace the ex-TWA's 763s, which were returned to the lessors. Given the massive downturn in the industry, American simply retired their oldest 767s. Regards.
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LTU932
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting Muddydwagon (Reply 7):
This bird was originally delivered to ILFC/Britannia.

Just wanted to say that myself. BY was I believe the only 762 operator with two overwing exits.
 
Devil505x
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:55 am

Somewhat off topic but...Why is there a car parked by the wing of the plane in the picture? Scrapman's? Airport Offical? It would be cool to drive through a storage facility like that on a daily basis.
 
ETStar
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:59 am

Wasn't Ansett that had grounded its 767s on a couple of occasions following the finding of cracks on some types? Could this aircraft also be one of those that were affected?
 
fraspotter
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting Devil505x (Reply 11):
It would be cool to drive through a storage facility like that on a daily basis.

I don't know about you guys, but I would think that it would be depressing to see all those beautiful birds condemned to "die"....  Sad
"Drunk drivers run stop signs. Stoners wait for them to turn green."
 
ramerinianair
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:07 am

If the market find no new home for them, they will be scrapped for parts. The leasing companies will try REALLY hard to find them a new home. At this stage in the game, the A/C should be completely paid off thus, any monies collected would be pure profit. Leasing companies have also offered to convert and bring the A/C up to snuff if the airline signs a long contract. People just don't want those A/C and it costs some money to keep it parked and not rotting.
If those were 737s that were twice the age, I am sure they would have been eaten up REALLY quick!!!
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N747PA
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:13 am

Obsolete 1649 Lockheed Constellations that were built in 1958 were scrapped in 1962.
 
ikramerica
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:18 am

Yeah, a 762 non-ER is not exactly a plane anyone wants in their fleet anymore. Being short range, it was high cycle, has old interiors, least fuel efficient engines of the model range, etc.

Even at the time, the 762ER introduction basically killed of 762 demand.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting FRAspotter (Reply 13):
Quoting Devil505x (Reply 11):

I don't know about you guys, but I would think that it would be depressing to see all those beautiful birds condemned to "die"....

I agree.  Sad It's a shame it's impossible for them to be preserved. Time takes its toll, even if you park them out in the most arid of deserts. (Sun damage alone could be a killer!)
What's fair is fair.
 
Simpilicity
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 1):
the older non-ER versions of the 767-200 aren't very popular on the 2nd hand market.

What's the main difference between a 762 & 762ER? (& also 763 & 763ER) Is it just long range fuel tanks? If so, can't these be retro fitted? Or is that too expensive?
 
Mr AirNZ
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:29 am

You must remember the 767 was designed as a medium range aircraft, desgined to do lots of hours, not so many cycles. Ansett used their aircraft on short Australian routes. These aircraft have very high cycles compared to most 767's of this age.
 
CalAir
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 10):
Just wanted to say that myself. BY was I believe the only 762 operator with two overwing exits

Yes you are right, but Braathens, the other European launch operator (albeit briefly) also had the 2 overwing exits. Vile interior though!


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ltbewr
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:17 pm

Don't forget too that if the age/cycles/hours were at certain numbers, then perhaps these a/c were due for major check(s) who's costs were not worth the investment and their poor resale value (for the variety of factors cited above). Add to that long storage times, undesirable configerations that both may have required a large investment and you may end up with an a/c worth more in parts then being sold whole.
Look, almost all aircraft have to die sometime and become scrap. We just can't keep all of them just to hang around for us to see.
 
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LTU932
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 pm

Quoting CalAir (Reply 20):
Yes you are right, but Braathens, the other European launch operator (albeit briefly) also had the 2 overwing exits. Vile interior though!

Thanks for that info on Braathens and the overwing exists. I agree with you on the interior as well.  Wink
 
Skydrol
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:43 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 3):
I wonder what will happen with ACs 762s. Some are parked for 4 years now. Hardly thinkable they´ll fly again.

Five 767-200 non-ERs are still listed as in service with AC now on the AC web site fleet list... Fin # 604, 611, 621, 622, 672


Maybe they are ready to be added to the fleet as seasonal or specific route demand requires more capacity than A320/A321. Also consider significant additional cargo capacity using 767 for some routes over narrow plane./



LD4
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David T
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:02 pm

ehhh, she's a fixer up 'er!  sarcastic 
 
tsl1011
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:19 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 3):
I wonder what will happen with ACs 762s. Some are parked for 4 years now. Hardly thinkable they´ll fly again.

This one certainly won't.  Sad

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I believe this bird is next in line...

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777STL
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:26 pm

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 23):
Five 767-200 non-ERs are still listed as in service with AC now on the AC web site fleet list... Fin # 604, 611, 621, 622, 672

Slightly OT, which 762 was the Gimli Glider? That plane belongs in a museum(I'm only half serious).
PHX based
 
Skydrol
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:39 pm

Quoting 777STL (Reply 26):
Slightly OT, which 762 was the Gimli Glider?

Fin# 604. Still in service today.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 26):
That plane belongs in a museum(I'm only half serious).

Agree. That should be the final destination for 604. (Totally serious).

If there's one 767-200 to preserve, this would be the one.


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crank
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:47 pm

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 23):
Five 767-200 non-ERs are still listed as in service with AC now on the AC web site fleet list... Fin # 604, 611, 621, 622, 672

That makes 2 non-ERs actually, 604 and 672. 611, 621 and 622 are all ERs.
 
Skydrol
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:59 pm

Quoting Crank (Reply 28):
That makes 2 non-ERs actually, 604 and 672. 611, 621 and 622 are all ERs.

Sorry, I got the data from the AC fleet list , I guess the information is wrong.



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SFOMB67
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:20 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 21):
Don't forget too that if the age/cycles/hours were at certain numbers, then perhaps these a/c were due for major check(s) who's costs were not worth the investment



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
Didn't Ansett order their initial 767's with a 3-man cockpit?

Ua has also rid itself of their 762's, although I saw them advertised as for sale about a month ago on a web site. Think they're getting too expensive to go thru another heavy maint visit. Really too bad, they are nice flying airplanes.

I didn't know there were any 767's made with a 3 man c/p. UA took delivery of the 2nd 762 off the assembly line (BACO kept the 1st for testing) and although I had seen pix of a 3 man c/p, the UA 762's were 2 man. Interesting, does anyone know how many 762's had 3 man c/p?
Not as easy as originally perceived
 
DL787932ER
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:22 pm

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 27):
If there's one 767-200 to preserve, this would be the one.

Nah, if there could be only one 762, it should be N102DA. But really, since that one's already slated for a museum, the Gimli Glider should also get preserved somewhere in Canada.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
DAL7e7
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:22 pm

Quoting Sfomb67 (Reply 30):
Ua has also rid itself of their 762's, although I saw them advertised as for sale about a month ago on a web site.

They are for sale on the Controller Aircraft Sales website. There is about 17 Ex-UA 762's on there.
DAL7e7 is wondering... Do pilots take crash courses?
 
JAM747
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting Sfomb67 (Reply 30):
didn't know there were any 767's made with a 3 man c/p. UA took delivery of the 2nd 762 off the assembly line (BACO kept the 1st for testing) and although I had seen pix of a 3 man c/p, the UA 762's were 2 man. Interesting, does anyone know how many 762's had 3 man c/p?

I believe the 3 man cockpit 767s were done for an Austrailian airline because at the time union laws required 3 man cockpit there. Maybe a Austrialian a.netter could expand on this and correct me if I am wrong.
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:53 pm

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 33):
I believe the 3 man cockpit 767s were done for an Austrailian airline because at the time union laws required 3 man cockpit there. Maybe a Austrialian a.netter could expand on this and correct me if I am wrong.

This is correct. Not union laws, more union pressure. Ansett gave in to this pressure and Boeing created a 767 with a 3 man crew. This was because TAA was already operating the A300B4 in competition and they already had three crew.

The 767 F/E positions were removed from the Ansett 767s commencing in February 1998.

Some information from this thread - http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/139289/

There's also pix of the 767 F/E panel in that thread.

Trent.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
ckfred
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:49 am

The 767-200 just doesn't fit today's economics. It doesn't have trans-Atlantic range. It doesn't carry enough people to justify the expense of a flight. Since many of them were flown on short and medium-haul routes, they have a lot of cycles.

UA used them on ORD-DTW. DL used to fly ORD-ATL. AA used them on ORD-LGA.

So, they don't make sense for a charter carrier or a cargo line.

The reason that AA got rid of its 767-200s was that it had only 8 of them. Getting rid of them meant that it didn't have to train it's 757/767 pilots on that model.

AA kept the -200ERs because they can make money flying 3-class service on trans-con routes, and they can be used for trans-Atlantic flights, if needed.
 
hawker
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:41 am

The Ansett 767 after lying around for years without a buyer, were sold specifically for scrapping. As a consequence the people who shortly earlier bought the Ansett space parts business demanded a reduction in price because the value of their 767 parts would now decrease substantially.

It must have been rather sad of the ex Ansett engineers who prepared the planes for ferrying, since they were once the pride of the fleet.
 
beechnut
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:19 am

I seem to recall hearing from an AC captain once that there is no significant difference between an ER and non-ER 762. They actually both have the same fuel capacity.

The difference is mainly paperwork, you basically paid Boeing for the certification to a higher gross weight. This allowed a better range with full payload. Of course there were some other items related to ETOPS but basically it's the same airframe.

I would imagine however that nobody's interested in paying the certification costs on a 60,000 hour airliner...

Beech
 
fanofjets
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:30 am

One more 767 shorty with dual overwing exits, this duo originally operated by Aeromaritime; later Balkan:
Boeing 767-27E, F-GHGD

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Boeing 767-27E, F-GHGE

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Many turbojets did not lead long lives; a number early non-fan 707s and DC-8s that were not upgraded met the scrapman in the 1970s after the fuel crises hit. And, lest we forget:

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boeing767mech
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:53 pm

One reason for the retirement of the Non-ER 200's we (American Airlines) flew is corrosion. I remember doing a A check on N301AA in LAX and finding a skin lap on the lower fuselage with missing rivets from corrosion in between the skin panels. Also talked to the overhaul guys from AFW and they said the wing spars had a major AD due on the aircraft and the pylons are starting to crack out and require work. Given the fact that 301 is line number 8 is was decided it would be cheaper to retire the subfleet of Non-ER airplanes.

Training and interior config has nothing to do with it since they're configured the same as the ER's and the cockpit is the same except two extra switches one for a extra fuel crossfeed valve and another for to test the Hydraulic Generator.

Just my view as a mechanic
David
BOS
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EyeLN
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 35):
The 767-200 just doesn't fit today's economics. It doesn't have trans-Atlantic range. It doesn't carry enough people to justify the expense of a flight. Since many of them were flown on short and medium-haul routes, they have a lot of cycles.

the economics work for ABX Air which is making the 762 the new workhorse of its cargo fleet, and will have more than 40 flying by the end of 2009...with more on the way....has any other cargo airline picked up the 762 in big numbers?
ABX flys 75 aging DC 9s....can reconditioned 737s be a useful replacement?
When does the first 777 get retired to cargo conversion?
 
bmacleod
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:38 am

Are any former CP 763s parked? I remember AC had to park a few 763s as well as retire its older 762s.
The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
 
JAM747
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 39):
One reason for the retirement of the Non-ER 200's we (American Airlines) flew is corrosion. I remember doing a A check on N301AA in LAX and finding a skin lap on the lower fuselage with missing rivets from corrosion in between the skin panels. Also talked to the overhaul guys from AFW and they said the wing spars had a major AD due on the aircraft and the pylons are starting to crack out and require work. Given the fact that 301 is line number 8 is was decided it would be cheaper to retire the subfleet of Non-ER airplanes.

Was this corrosion premature for that type of aircraft or did they have high hours or cycles?
 
CalAir
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:15 am

Thanks Fanofjets! Missed those birds! I understand that Aeromaritime were the charter arm of UTA and so the extra overwings were there due to the higher density configuration, like BY, but what about Balkan? Were those a/c used on a mixture of IT and Scheduled services? I always thought the majority of Balkan's work was scheduled flights and so wouldn't need the extra overwing exits? I guess they were cheap on the market so who cares how many overwings they had!
British Caledonian...we never forget, you have a choice
 
fanofjets
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:44 am

Dear CalAir,

Many thanks for the compliment. I was thinking the same about the Balkan interiors. I think you are correct - both planes are currently with El Al, with only one overwing exit outlined:
F-GHGD, now 4X-EAE

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F-GHGE, now 4X-EAF

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fanofjets
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:53 am

An even newer plane appears to be awaiting the scrapman, this poor A320, formerly 5B-DAT of Cyprus Airways:

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Keeping her company at Opa Locka, by the way, is another former Ansett (originally Britannia) 762:

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Photo © Justin Cederholm
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The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
Skydrol
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RE: 767 Broken Up - After Only 14 Years Service!

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:13 pm

Quoting TSL1011 (Reply 25):
This one certainly won't.  Sad



I believe this bird is next in line...

This is when that 'Star Alliance' 767 Fin#601 was the proud new addition to the AC fleet...
(nice ribbon!)

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