ETStar
Topic Author
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UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:04 pm

Okay, so ATW reports that UA and AA are complaining to US authorities about BAA, the authority that runs London Airports, over the fact that it is only supplying them 70% of the fuel they need, while it provides its home carriers (BA, VS) up to 82% of their requirements.

What really fires me up is their request to the US Dept. of Transportation to withold Flyglobespan's application (Scotland based) to start services to the US. Can't they really fight their own battles, and take it up with the Brits themselves? Why use the mighty US muscle for everything? Boohoo, it's not like it is a shortage that came from mismanagement, but one caused by an accident! Obviously, with BA and VS operating far too many flights out of LHR, they do deserve to get the oil they need to operate with minimal disruptions out of their home base.

Oh, and here's the source: http://www.atwonline.com/news/other.html?issueDate=1/13/2006
 
LAXintl
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:09 pm

The BA and VS flights gotta come from some place. What's wrong with them having to tanker slightly additional fuel to ensure ALL airlines get the equivalent and fair allocation of available fuel.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
N1120A
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:13 pm

Quoting ETStar (Thread starter):
What really fires me up is their request to the US Dept. of Transportation to withold Flyglobespan's application (Scotland based) to start services to the US. Can't they really fight their own battles, and take it up with the Brits themselves? Why use the mighty US muscle for everything? Boohoo, it's not like it is a shortage that came from mismanagement, but one caused by an accident! Obviously, with BA and VS operating far too many flights out of LHR, they do deserve to get the oil they need to operate with minimal disruptions out of their home base.

Hmmm, well, BA and VS have been protected by Bermuda II for years  Silly
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ETStar
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:14 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):


The BA and VS flights gotta come from some place. What's wrong with them having to tanker slightly additional fuel to ensure ALL airlines get the equivalent and fair allocation of available fuel.

I am sure they already taker from elsewhere, but given operations at LHR, BA and VS are the most affected, and I am sure you will agree on this. So, say 6 combined AA/UA flights tankering a bit more, vs 100+ of BA/VS tankering more? Which one would be hurt most? Some of these airlines have to learn to coexist, and to be considerate to others when others are in dire need.
 
ETStar
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:16 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
Hmmm, well, BA and VS have been protected by Bermuda II for years Silly

... which is an agreement the US signed. Anyways, don't turn this thread to a Bermuda thread, cause there are enough of those.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:22 pm

Quoting ETStar (Reply 4):
Anyways, don't turn this thread to a Bermuda thread, cause there are enough of those.

Sorry, but you might have been smart to mention that this IS a Bermuda II issue by posting the entire paragraph rather than only what you felt like posting.

"American Airlines and United Airlines are objecting to BAA's handling of the ongoing fuel shortage situation at London Heathrow caused by the Buncefield oil depot fire last month (ATWOnline, Dec. 15). The carriers state that BAA's rationing policy is "blatantly discriminatory" because "so-called 'base' carriers at Heathrow, including British Airways and Virgin Atlantic," are provided with 82% of their fuel requirements for long-haul services, while "so-called 'visiting' carriers," including American and United, receive only 70% of their requirements. As a result, AA and UA have to tanker fuel, resulting in additional expenses of approximately $20,000 per day for American and $15,000 per day for United. Each gallon of fuel tankered across the Atlantic requires about one-third gal. in extra fuel burn. The policy violates the Bermuda 2 bilateral between the US and UK, the carriers allege, and they have asked the US Dept. of Transportation to withhold action on an application by Scotland-based Globespan Airways (dba Flyglobespan) to operate between the US and UK until BAA changes its policy."-ATW Online, 1/13/06
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LAXintl
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:24 pm

Actualy BA in particular should have the easiest time of tankering due to its significant shorthaul network at LHR. Near every domestic and European flight should be able tanker in enough for its next short haul return leg.
Its much easier(and cost effective) to tanker on shorthauls then on longhaul trips such as what AA, UA solely operate at LHR.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
motopolitico
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:31 pm

Quoting ETStar (Reply 3):
So, say 6 combined AA/UA flights tankering a bit more, vs 100+ of BA/VS tankering more? Which one would be hurt most? Some of these airlines have to learn to coexist, and to be considerate to others when others are in dire need.

It exploits an accident to give UK-based carriers a competitive advantage on one of the world's most competitive air travel markets, the Pond Jump. The best airports in the world are managed by BAA. I think they do an excellent job, but if they want to be able to continue managing foreign airports in the US and elsewhere, BAA needs to stop showing favoritism at its premier airport. Those who live in glass houses...
Garbage stinks; trash don't!
 
UAL777UK
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:55 pm

I flew on UA 918 IAD - LHR about two weeks ago. The 747 was tankering fuel to LHR for the reasons stated above. Jesus, I swear we used every inch of tarmac on take off, that bird was heavy!!!
 
CO7e7
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:00 pm

So, why are they (UA and AA) complaining about fuel if they're getting enough to reach their destination ??
I really don't know anything about fuel when it comes to aviation.. so somebody please explain to me what's the big deal about ?

Thanks in advance
 
anandt
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:18 pm

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 9):
So, why are they (UA and AA) complaining about fuel if they're getting enough to reach their destination ??
I really don't know anything about fuel when it comes to aviation.. so somebody please explain to me what's the big deal about ?

Both carriers are having to carry extra fuel on flights from the US to UK as they are not being provided enough fuel to complete trips back to the US. Carrying extra fuel on flights have a penalty in terms of extra fuel consumption of fuel due to the aircraft being heavier not to mention possibly reduced cargo on these flights which also costs in terms of revenue loss.
 
CO7e7
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:19 pm

Quoting Anandt (Reply 10):
Carrying extra fuel on flights have a penalty in terms of extra fuel consumption of fuel due to the aircraft being heavier not to mention possibly reduced cargo on these flights which also costs in terms of revenue loss.

WOW.. i never knew that... thanks for the valuable info!
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:41 pm

Does this apply to all foreign carriers? I'm curious to know how AC is affected.

Kris
YYC
 
jush
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:57 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):
The BA and VS flights gotta come from some place. What's wrong with them having to tanker slightly additional fuel to ensure ALL airlines get the equivalent and fair allocation of available fuel.

Yeah but if AA und UA wouldn't get more percentages of fuel on their hombases you would defenitely cry. So would a lot of others.
It's a normal practice. Before complaining they better should run as efficient as VS or BA.

Regds
jush
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ltbewr
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:27 pm

What would be done if there was a similar fuel shortage problem at a USA airport? For example, if there had been a major problem at a fuel production facility in New Jersey that supplies EWR or JFK? Would the USA based carriers (UA, AA) be given a similar preference for fuel over BA, VS?
Perhaps what should be done until the UK facility is back to 100% is to suspend one round-trip flight a day or 2 per week among all four of the majors on a rotating basis to reduce fuel demand so that all get enough so don't have to tanker additional fuel. Perhaps VS has to cut 1 flight on Monday and Wednesday, BA on Tuesday and Thursday, AA on Saturday and Monday, UA on Friday and Sunday, something like that.
 
kevindca
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:38 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
Perhaps what should be done until the UK facility is back to 100% is to suspend one round-trip flight a day or 2 per week among all four of the majors on a rotating basis to reduce fuel demand so that all get enough so don't have to tanker additional fuel. Perhaps VS has to cut 1 flight on Monday and Wednesday, BA on Tuesday and Thursday, AA on Saturday and Monday, UA on Friday and Sunday, something like that.

That's far too logical and sensible. No doubt if any carrier were to do this, another would ADD a frequency and continue to complain!
 
halls120
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:38 pm

Quoting ETStar (Reply 3):
Some of these airlines have to learn to coexist, and to be considerate to others when others are in dire need.

Horsecrap. If there is a fuel shortage, every airline should be treated equally. BAA is engaging in blatantly discriminatory practices which cannot be rationalized, no matter how hard you try.

If a US airport did the same thing over here, favoring US carriers over BA, the brits would be screaming bloody murder and you know it.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
vs25
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:58 pm

I don't notice any of the other international carriers complaining. I just saw another thread about SQ flights making fuel stops because of the LHR shortage.
 
vfw614
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RE: UA And AA Are Now Pissing Me Off! Big Time!

Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:07 pm

What's BAA's involvement in this ? One does not buy fuel form the airport operator or the government, but from one of the fuel suppliers available at an airport. Isn't that a simple contractual problem AA und UA have with their fuel supplier ? Or has jet fuel been nationalized recently ? If not, this all can only happen on the basis of some sort of agreement between the carriers and whomever.

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