FlyEmirates
Topic Author
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US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:46 am

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1050.html

As a result of the August 23, 2000 crash of a Gulf Air flight in the Persian Gulf, the U.S. Department of Defense has recommended that military commanders use air carriers other than Gulf Air for official travel.

wow what a blow was browsing and saw this, over reaction dont you think?
 
cedarjet
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:01 am

It is an overreaction. The accident was a tragedy, killing a load of Palestinian and Egyptian school kids along with everyone else onboard. The pilot (and by extension co-pilot) really wasn't having a good day, a poorly flown approach, a dangerous go-around, followed by spatial disorientation that saw them fly right into the deck. But look at the chain of events that led to the crash of that US military 737 that crashed in Croatia and killed Secretary Of Commerce Ron Brown - much worse. Or the AA587 disaster, where the copilot marks a routine encounter with wake turbulence by stomping on alternate rudder pedals til the tail rips off. I bet the US military don't ban their people from flying on AA - or their own flying service, eh?

Not accusing the people behind this decision of racism or anything, more likely an overreaction by some pen-pusher who doesn't know his arse from his elbow, and who doesn't know that Gulf Air virtually invented aviation in the Middle East (along with MEA) and have an otherwise exceptional safety record.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Lumberton
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:00 am

What were the circumstances of the crash? You may disagree with and not like the recomendation, but our authorities have every right to make it if they think that a similar incident/accident is likely to occur. That's why I asked about the particulars of this accident. Was there negligence?

Edit:
By the way, I've flown Gulf Air and was very impressed with their onboard service. The checkin folks could have used a little more "training" in customer relations.

[Edited 2006-01-14 00:01:20]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
SWISSER
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:27 am

What a blow!

Certainly for a carrier that flies one of the advanced aircrafts in the world,
and in fact it will soon be my new employer!  Wink
What time is top of descent?
 
cx777fan
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:48 am

If one were to faithfully apply this US military "logic" (anyone smell an oxymoron?) then their staff should really only be allowed to fly the small number of airlines like QF who've never had a fatal accident. As Cedarjet says, most US airlines should be struck off the list!
 
L-188
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:01 pm

I am willing to bet the "Ban" has nothing to do with the crash. Setting aside the fact that US personel tend to be booked by the goverment of US Carriers, there may be another reason.

It may be a way to prevent an incident where a US person runs into a local national who is upset about US actions in the region and not offend the host nation.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
By the way, I've flown Gulf Air and was very impressed with their onboard service.

Ditto sir...While not my preferred carrier to/from the Gulf, I have had the pleasure of flying Gulf Air on several occasions via AUH and BAH and found the overall experience to be excellent.

Something tells me a senior US State Dept official had an unpleasant experience and has managed to get GF blacklisted. What a shame....
 
a300
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:54 pm

We forget that Iran is in the Middle East. It wasn't MEA or Gulf Air that invented aviation in the region. Iran has had commercial air service for nearly 70 years!
Boland Aseman Jayegah Man Ast.
 
flyboy36y
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:59 pm

Or the AA587 disaster, where the copilot marks a routine encounter with wake turbulence by stomping on alternate rudder pedals til the tail rips off. I

Or the AA587 dissaster, where Airbus made the rudder too weak to withstand above average rudder push without a catastrophic failure.
 
kappel
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:18 pm

Quoting Flyboy36y (Reply 8):
Or the AA587 disaster, where the copilot marks a routine encounter with wake turbulence by stomping on alternate rudder pedals til the tail rips off. I

Or the AA587 dissaster, where Airbus made the rudder too weak to withstand above average rudder push without a catastrophic failure.

PLease not this discussion again. The NTSB clearly said that the forces applied to the rudder were far above FAA standards, but also that the rudder was too sensitive to input and also AA training was to blame. There was no one cause, as there almost never is in airline tragedies such as that.
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yowza
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:33 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
It may be a way to prevent an incident where a US person runs into a local national who is upset about US actions in the region and not offend the host nation.

Then why let US military personnel fly with any Gulf carriers? I saw a US Naval Offcier in the Airport in Dubai in full formal attire recently and he was not getting the warmest of looks from people in the airport even in liberal Dubai.

Quoting Flyboy36y (Reply 8):
Or the AA587 dissaster, where Airbus made the rudder too weak to withstand above average rudder push without a catastrophic failure.

Yeah that's why airbus planes seem to just keep falling out of the sky  Yeah sure Here we go again.

Surely they should prevent US personnel flying Iran Air, after all Iran Air planes are prone to being shot down by the their own ships.  stirthepot 

YOWza
 
Lumberton
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:44 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
What were the circumstances of the crash?

I'll ask again: what caused the crash? If the concerns are safety related, then all the pious posturing in the world won't change the fact that there is at least an issue that the State Dept has concerns about? So, who has details concerning the crash?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:58 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
I am willing to bet the "Ban" has nothing to do with the crash.

It is not a "ban" merely a recommendation.
 
HiJazzey
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:18 pm

There's bit of a double standard here. While pilot error was the main cause for the Gulf Air crash, GF has otherwise a good safety record. They certainly aren't a dodgy airline. They're no worse than the American majors.

As for oldest airlines in ME, both MS and TK are over 10 years older than GF and IR, hell even SV is older than the latter two. So please spare me the childish "we invented aviation in the region" crap.
 
Lumberton
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:26 pm

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 13):
So please spare me the childish "we invented aviation in the region" crap.

Please point out to me where this came up?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
I am willing to bet the "Ban" has nothing to do with the crash. Setting aside the fact that US personel tend to be booked by the goverment of US Carriers, there may be another reason.

It may be a way to prevent an incident where a US person runs into a local national who is upset about US actions in the region and not offend the host nation.

Then why only GF? They should stop flying on any Arab airline, including EK and Etihad...

[Edited 2006-01-14 14:44:09]
 
a300
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:29 am

Who said anything about IR? Junkers Persian Air Services (or some name like that) was operational in Iran in the 1920s and 1930s. The first DC-3 on the other side of the Gulf was delivered in 1945 as a gift of FDR! Turkey is in Near East and Egypt is in North Africa. Egypt can be considered part of MENA ( Middle East and North Africa) region but not purely ME. Correcting factual errors are hardly considered childish.
Boland Aseman Jayegah Man Ast.
 
TakeOff
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:39 am

As DL Widget Head pointed out, that's merely a recommendation. Funny how anything that comes from the U.S. government (present or past, Republican or Democratic) geared towards protecting its citizens, automatically comes under heavy criticism or is seen as someting "bigger," "darker," and sinister. I'm sure Gulf Air wasn't happy to lose any passengers to this recommendation. I guess that as much as (that part of) the world hates us, they hate losing our business more.
 
MarkATL
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting A300 (Reply 7):
We forget that Iran is in the Middle East. It wasn't MEA or Gulf Air that invented aviation in the region. Iran has had commercial air service for nearly 70 years!

In spite of sanctions the technicians at Iran Air keep those planes flying. These guys have got to be some of the best in world.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
Surely they should prevent US personnel flying Iran Air, after all Iran Air planes are prone to being shot down by the their own ships.

Nearly twenty year old inexcusable tragic error....God rest their souls. All the victims were innocent.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
I saw a US Naval Officer in the Airport in Dubai in full formal attire recently and he was not getting the warmest of looks from people in the airport even in liberal Dubai.

When I proudly served overseas in the Army, it was rare for us to travel in uniform. Even in a country that has good relations with US and the military, the people don't want it flaunted in their face. This officer showed bad judgment by letting his pride be more important than the sensitivities of the people in the host country.

This is not just out of courtesy. If resentment grows the cost of moving these facilities can be huge. I refer to such actions as the pull out from Saudi Arabia and the Philippines.

-=MarkATL=-
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
Lumberton
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:08 am

Rather than all the political b.s., does anyone have any information as to the merits of the recommendation? Are GF's safety practices suspect?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting Flyboy36y (Reply 8):
Or the AA587 dissaster, where Airbus made the rudder too weak

Sorry, that's nonsense. Otherwise more accidents with A300's would have happened.
signature censored by admin - so check my profile
 
ZKNEA
Posts: 148
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting TakeOff (Reply 17):
they hate losing our business more.

You speak as if there is a city of American millitary commanders. Whilst losing any buisness is bad, I'm sure they would be more concerned with losing the buisness of a corporation than that of the American army commanders.

On that point, any reason why it's only their commanders??
 
moparman
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
Surely they should prevent US personnel flying Iran Air, after all Iran Air planes are prone to being shot down by the their own ships.

That is correct, especially if the said aircraft carries military transsponders. That little fact you have neglected to mention. Also on the subject, why were all the bodies found nude? Is it not Islamic custom to cover a corpse with a cloth before being comitted? I firmly believe that the aircraft was filled with corpses, and the pilot flew a suecide mission to create an incident. This is the only explaination to why this airliner had a military transponder and all the bodies, with exception of 2 pilots, were nude.
"Harming a patient is unethical, but I can inflict as much pain as I like" Dr. Phlox
 
Lumberton
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
Surely they should prevent US personnel flying Iran Air,

To the best of my knowledge, no U.S. military personnel have flown Iran Air in a long, long time. Probably since the Shah's downfall. If there was a point to be made here, it was lost on me.  confused 
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
L-188
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
Then why let US military personnel fly with any Gulf carriers? I saw a US Naval Offcier in the Airport in Dubai in full formal attire recently and he was not getting the warmest of looks from people in the airport even in liberal Dubai.

Exactly why I am surprised that we are seeing US personel on local national carriers.

As far as Gulf Air goes.....I don't know why they are singled out....maybe they just had a convient less offensive excuse.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
bennett123
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:00 am

Moparman

Assuming that your unsourced account is correct, then why did the Iranians strip the corpses?.
 
A319XFW
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 24):
Exactly why I am surprised that we are seeing US personel on local national carriers.

Probably because US carriers don't fly there?
 
EyeLN
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting Moparman (Reply 22):
I firmly believe that the aircraft was filled with corpses, and the pilot flew a suecide mission to create an incident. This is the only explaination to why this airliner had a military transponder and all the bodies, with exception of 2 pilots, were nude.

What's this? Must not have had the correct google search words to figure this out... iranian airline, crash, nude corpses.....what are we discussing?
 
MarkATL
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting Moparman (Reply 22):
I firmly believe that the aircraft was filled with corpses, and the pilot flew a suecide mission to create an incident.

This line of thought is beyond disturbing. Even the US Navy has concluded it was a tragic accident. They have concluded they were at fault. The Iranian Airbus was on a scheduled flight in a commercial air corridor.

Do you take all your vacations in Roswell looking for little green men? Eat all your lunches on the grassy knoll? Actually think Saddam still has hidden WMA's? Are one of those people who think Viet Nam is still holding POW's or maybe you actually think the holocaust never happened?

The government of Iran is as reckless and dangerous as any government could be. However, a dislike for a government should not be placed on the people of that country. You have attempted to void the loss of those innocent people. Their only hostile actions against the US was to board a commercial flight home.

You should hang out with Dale Gribble.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
roseflyer
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting CX777Fan (Reply 4):
If one were to faithfully apply this US military "logic" (anyone smell an oxymoron?) then their staff should really only be allowed to fly the small number of airlines like QF who've never had a fatal accident.

It is not only the military that does this. Many large companies restrict employees from flying certain airlines. There are posted suggestions for when choosing airlines for company business.

There are many reasons why an airline might not be recommended, but most of them have to do with safety violations. These don't only apply to airlines either. Some companies won't send people to certain locations and suggest that their employees don't travel to certain places for safety reasons even on their own leisure time.

However I am surprised that this is being published. I would have expected this to be confidential information.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
EyeLN
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 28):
Even the US Navy has concluded it was a tragic accident

July, 1988?
 
MarkATL
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:27 am

Quoting EyeLN (Reply 30):
July, 1988?

Yes, and compensation was paid. Although they still blame the incident on hostile action by Iranian forces. They acknowledge that the plane was shot down in error. They thought it was an Iranian F-14.

[Edited 2006-01-14 21:40:39]
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
Lumberton
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 29):
It is not only the military that does this. Many large companies restrict employees from flying certain airlines.

Correct. In fact, when British Airways placed a very large Boeing order in the '80s, Airbus was so ticked off they announced publically that their employees were forbidden to fly on BA. The source was Aviation Week & Space Technology.

YOWza, I'm waiting for your answer on how U.S. military personnel are using Iran Air. What's your source?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
moparman
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:34 pm

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 25):
Assuming that your unsourced account is correct, then why did the Iranians strip the corpses

It is my hypothesis that the passengers were already dead when placed aboard the aircraft. To my understanding it is Islamic custom to cover the body only with a cloth. As far as sources, any of the footage broadcast at the time on CNN or other media can be reviewed. You will find that each and every corpse was nude, with the exception of two males in pilot uniforms.
"Harming a patient is unethical, but I can inflict as much pain as I like" Dr. Phlox
 
a300
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:39 pm

Anybody that still thinks that IR 655 had a military transponder is 17 years behind times. The investigations by the US Navy, Iranian CAO and ICAO revealed the plane to have only transmitted civilian digital and voice data. The nonsense about the military transponder was an early smoke screen tactic by the Reagan Administration. There were Iranian military traffic that day over and near the Persian Gulf including a C-130, P-3F and an F4. The radar control officer may have been a bit confused.
Boland Aseman Jayegah Man Ast.
 
moparman
Posts: 388
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:06 pm

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 28):
This line of thought is beyond disturbing. Even the US Navy has concluded it was a tragic accident. They have concluded they were at fault. The Iranian Airbus was on a scheduled flight in a commercial air corridor.

Mark, I completely agree with you and the U.S. Navy. It was most certainly an accident in that the aircraft in question was an airliner; on a scheduled flight in a correct corridor; and should have never been engaged by the cruiser. That much is true. But it is also true that it was transmitting with a military transponder identical what was used by Iranian F-14s, and all the "passengers" were found floating nude in the Persian Gulf with the exception of two males dressed in pilot uniforms. All of this information is readly avalible through the U.S. Navy and in the final report on the subject.

These nude corpses is what really raises the spectar of what is not just my hypothesis. This would conform to Islamic burial custom. Also the situation in the Persian Gulf at the time is of great concern as it was the time when supertankers were being routinely attacked and the U.S. Navy was escorting them on their passage. I do not put it past fanatical Iranian government to fill the aircraft full of fresh corpses. Had they been living, they would have been fully clothed to Islamic custom. Interestingly enough, on flight that was to go to Mecca for Ramadan - why where there no children aboard other than a single infant with a severe birth defect? Why was there not a single Quran recovered from the sea? Wouldn't these "religous pilgrams" have carried a good many copies of this holy text with them?

Mark I most certainly do not mean any disrespect to anyone, but can you give an explaination of why all but two of the corpses where found in the nude? Why was the only crew onboard two male pilots, which were dressed? Even Iranair has flight attendents, but why were no other crew members found? Why was there no carryon luggage recovered?

I don't like this line of thinking either, but considering what was recovered I cannot come to any other conclusion that would reasonably account for this.






To the question of extraterrestrials:

Mark you and I both know that there are approximately 100 billion (100,000,000,000) stars in this galaxy alone; and there are billions of galaxies in the heavens. While someone someplace had to start with a single civilization, can you possibly think that our civilization is the only one in this galaxy? (or perhaps the universe?) So to answer your question, I firmly believe that there are extraterrestrial civilization in space. In fact, it would be practically impossible for there not to be.
"Harming a patient is unethical, but I can inflict as much pain as I like" Dr. Phlox
 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
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RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:12 pm

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 28):
Actually think Saddam still has hidden WMA's

What in the hell is a WMA ???
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
MarkATL
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:07 am

RE: US Forces Advised Against Travel On Gulf Air

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:03 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 36):
What in the hell is a WMA ???

It's me being a dumba$$. I meant WMD.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...

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