BoomBoom
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WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:35 am

...when Airbus announces its numbers on Tuesday, it isn't likely to concede defeat.

Airbus is expected to report that the company had a record year for orders -- even if its total didn't quite match Boeing's -- and that it delivered more jetliners than Boeing for the third consecutive year. Boeing delivered 290 planes in 2005; Airbus said late last year they expected to deliver about 370.

Airbus will likely play down their failure to hit a self-proclaimed target of 200 orders for the new midsize A350. They will probably note that their performance of about 180 orders was better than Boeing's a year earlier, when it promised 200 orders for the fledgling 787 and got only 56.

Already, each side has begun to quietly question whether its competitor is trying to pad its numbers by counting orders before they are backed by signed contracts and cash deposits. Each company insists that its order accounting is honest.

The big question is when will U.S. and European giants like American Airlines, United Airlines, Lufthansa and British Airways start to update aging parts of their fleets.

Carriers can't afford to fly their old planes forever, particularly when both Boeing and Airbus are offering newer models that promise operating and maintenance savings of more than 30%. Carriers that wait too long might be out of luck because delivery slots at both Boeing and Airbus are filling up well into 2009.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113720150145246645.html?mod=INDUSTRY

[Edited 2006-01-14 17:39:06]
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A319XFW
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:38 am

Airbus hasn't claimed victory (yet?).
We'll have to wait for the 17th to see. Anything else is pure speculation.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:43 am

Sheesh, at this point, who the hell cares who sold more aircraft, both Airbus & Boeing had an amazing year with their respective aircraft sales, cheers...
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ER757
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 2):
Sheesh, at this point, who the hell cares who sold more aircraft, both Airbus & Boeing had an amazing year with their respective aircraft sales, cheers...

Amen to that. Quite a successful year for both regardless of the final numbers.
Hard to imagine that either will be able to match 2005 sales in 2006, but you never know. It will be fun to sit on the sidelines and watch, that's for sure.
 
KJFK31L
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 2):
Sheesh, at this point, who the hell cares who sold more aircraft, both Airbus & Boeing had an amazing year with their respective aircraft sales, cheers...

Exactly my point when I started a forum a few days ago about Boeing and Airbus 2005 sales. Reuters had reported amazing increases in aircraft sales for BOTH companies, important because it provides a glimpse into the direction of the aerospace industry. Though this is on the strength of their new respective programs, it is nice to see Airbus pushing more than its A350s and A380s and Boeing pushing more than its 747-800 and the 787 Dreamliner.

As for the official numbers, Airbus is slightly under 1000 while Boeing is slightly above. There is a margin of less than 100 aircraft sales between the two companies, however if a number of Chinese airlines make final their orders for 600 Boeing aircraft, Boeing's yearly total could increase slightly (as of now, not all of these orders are firm).

Matt
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:21 am

Quoting KJFK31L (Reply 4):
however if a number of Chinese airlines make final their orders for 600 Boeing aircraft, Boeing's yearly total could increase slightly (as of now, not all of these orders are firm).

600?
 
KJFK31L
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 5):
600?

Oops! That would be 60, not 600. Thanks for the correction A319XFW!!

Matt
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ikramerica
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:14 am

Boeing closed ALL China orders before Jan 1, and one can assume so did Airbus. That's one reason Airbus's orders jumped so much in Dec, they had more to still close than Boeing.
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jacobin777
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:27 am

who cares about the final number tally if company x sells 100 single-isle planes and company y sells 80 widebody planes.....

I think it will be more tellling as to what the bottom line for both companies are in the civil aviation sector....

that's where the truth of the matter will come out...
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N79969
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 2):
who the hell cares who sold more aircraft,

Noel Forgeard and John Leahy of course. They have egos to defend and reputations to uphold.

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 1):
We'll have to wait for the 17th to see. Anything else is pure speculation.

If the WSJ is now running the story, it is better than "pure speculation."
 
Tifoso
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
Airbus will likely play down their failure to hit a self-proclaimed target of 200 orders for the new midsize A350.

What? This thing is getting terribly irritating. Each publication reports something different  bomb 
 
AvObserver
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:24 am

"Airbus will likely play down their failure to hit a self-proclaimed target of 200 orders for the new midsize A350. They will probably note that their performance of about 180 orders was better than Boeing's a year earlier, when it promised 200 orders for the fledgling 787 and got only 56."

I think the WSJ meant 156 787 committments, NOT 56, at end of '04 vs. 180 committments for A350 by yearend '05. In both cases, neither totals were entirely FIRM orders. Sure, Airbus can claim a higher number by their goal but it can also be argued that 787 momentum was likely somewhat slowed by some customers holding off until seeing how Airbus would respond, a situation the A350 didn't face. Both are doing very well and the A350 doesn't have to match 787 sales, being a lower cost program, so Airbus needn't feel pressure to capture more than 40% of that market, much as Boeing needn't worry about not getting 50% of the very large airliner market with its 747-8.
 
agill
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:06 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 2):
Sheesh, at this point, who the hell cares who sold more aircraft,

Well tragicly a lot of people on this forum are extremely preoccupied with that.
 
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:07 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):
who cares about the final number tally if company x sells 100 single-isle planes and company y sells 80 widebody planes.....

I think it will be more tellling as to what the bottom line for both companies are in the civil aviation sector....

Yes, simply stating the number of aircraft sold, while an easy to understand metric, is not as accurate a reflection of the situation as could be. Number of equivalent seats, or empty take-off weight (ETOW?). And judjing from the skew of small vs. large aircraft sold by each manufacturer last year, the difference is not just 10%.

Ultimately the most accurate numbers for bragging rights would be based on contract value, but sadly neither maker is going to divulge those numbers.
 
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:49 am

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 11):
I think the WSJ meant 156 787 committments, NOT 56, at end of '04 vs. 180 committments for A350 by yearend '05. In both cases, neither totals were entirely FIRM orders. Sure, Airbus can claim a higher number by their goal but it can also be argued that 787 momentum was likely somewhat slowed by some customers holding off until seeing how Airbus would respond, a situation the A350 didn't face.

I think that they meant 56. According to the Boeing website, 56 787's were signed as FIRM orders in 2004. However, the 200 that the WSJ is referring to for Airbus is both Orders & Commitments. IIRC, Boeing had about 190-193 Orders and Commitments at the end of 2004.

Once again, its seems that everyone is getting Orders and Commitments confused, and using it to skew the numbers. This is nothing new.

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Tifoso
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:58 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 14):
IIRC, Boeing had about 190-193 Orders and Commitments at the end of 2004.

No, it was 56 firm, and 126 firm + commitments.

Quote:
Customer announced orders and commitments for the 7E7 now total 126 airplanes, including 56 under firm contract.

This was in the Vietnam airlines order press release, which happened to be the final 7E7 order for 2004. Vietnam Airlines Joins Boeing 7E7 Dreamliner Launch Team
 
Cruiser
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:28 am

Quoting Tifoso (Reply 15):

No, it was 56 firm, and 126 firm + commitments.

I guess my memory is going! I just did some more research, and it was 126 Firm + Commitments.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
gearup
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:53 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
The big question is when will U.S. and European giants like American Airlines, United Airlines, Lufthansa and British Airways start to update aging parts of their fleets.

Do you think it likely that American and United will be in a position financially to carry out fleet renewal anytime soon? If so, the numbers will be big.

GU
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BoomBoom
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:58 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
Airbus will likely play down their failure to hit a self-proclaimed target of 200 orders for the new midsize A350. They will probably note that their performance of about 180 orders was better than Boeing's a year earlier, when it promised 200 orders for the fledgling 787 and got only 56.

So it's an apples to oranges comparison. Boeing gets only firm orders counted and Airbus gets orders and commitments. So how many firm orders did Airbus get?
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ual747den
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:22 pm

Does anyone want to figure out how many seats each sold? I think that would be a great idea!
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elvis777
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:57 pm

Hello All,

let me be the first and perhaps the only one to admit to this open and perhaps shameful secret. One that seems to be blatantly obvious:

I care who wins the order and delivery race. I really truly do. It is clear that I believe the best engineering and science is in our side and it makes me happy that our products are selling well - in some cases better than those of the european consortium. I like the competition and look forward to future challenges where we (Boeing) can garner more orders and design new, innovative and inspiring birds. Perhaps I will be labeled to be not a true blue aviation fan. I don't happen to agree with that but if that is the case so be it! I am glad we got more orders than EADS. I believe that this will continue to be the case since I believe we have a better product. I am not so glad that they delivered more frames than we did. I believe that this will change in the next few years and that will make me happy.

I also believe that the french led consortium makes good birds and that it would be foolish to let our hubris get the better of us again by underestimating their products. But I do not think that will happen again. As I said earlier I look forward to the challenges that this competition will pose for us. They have raised the bar but I feel that we have met the challenge rather well and will raise the bar above their reach. Frankly I like our chances in this competition!!

Is there no one in the european camp that will wear this scarlet letter with me? Keesje? Wings? Manni?

Peace

Elvis777
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PlaneDane
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:12 pm

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 2):
Sheesh, at this point, who the hell cares who sold more aircraft, both Airbus & Boeing had an amazing year with their respective aircraft sales, cheers...

I agree completely. It is really gratifying to see such a great comeback for Boeing from just a few years ago. It is also just astounding to see how well the A320 family sells.

Congrats to both.
 
N79969
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:55 pm

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 20):
I care who wins the order and delivery race. I really truly do. It is clear that I believe the best engineering and science is in our side and it makes me happy that our products are selling well - in some cases better than those of the european consortium. I like the competition and look forward to future challenges where we (Boeing) can garner more orders and design new, innovative and inspiring birds.

I am right with you. I certainly do care and am probably less diplomatic than you about it. And I think it is natural for the companies themselves to care as it as a normal part of rivalry.

This thread is about competing claims for the 2005 'title' and I think the issue is a little different from the point you raise. Either Boeing or Airbus is not telling the truth. Who is lying?

I think some of the gerrymandering of dates and definitions of 'sale' have gotten out of hand. If Airbus actually tries to claim a success by saying that it missed its 200 unit target in 2005 but it is a victory since the margin was lesser than Boeing's 2004 787 deficit, I would be disappointed but not surprised. That is a convoluted and tortured notion of 'success.' It would be far more graceful to just say "oh well, we missed but we'll make 200 soon enough"

Forgeard and John Leahy are a couple of glory hounds. I do not blame Leahy much because his job as salesman-in-chief is to generate excitement about their products. He has talk to a little trash. Through sheer force of personality, he is credited with really putting Airbus on the map by closing some key deals. Given the link between his aggressive tactics and Airbus sales, he is arguably just doing his job.

Noel Forgeard on the other hand is of dubious value in the business of making and selling airplanes in my view. As far as I can tell, he is a politically-savvy and very-well connected ex-bureaucrat who works diligently for the advancement....of himself mostly. I think he was good for shaking down the money trees in the EU whenever it was time for some fresh launch aid. Otherwise he seems to be a loose, trouble-making cannon that should either be demoted to a sales job or forced out of the company. He does not strike me as CEO material.

Boeing posted 1002 orders. Someone correct me if I am mistaken, but I think those are firm orders and not any of the lesser forms of business agreement. That is a pretty straightforward count or should be. As many people have said, Airbus also had a very, very bountiful year. They may truly have more than 1002 orders using the same method of counting. If not, I wonder how much they will stretch the rules and dates to claim the crown.

[Edited 2006-01-15 07:58:11]
 
manni
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:59 pm

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 20):

I care who wins the order and delivery race. I really truly do. It is clear that I believe the best engineering and science is in our side and it makes me happy that our products are selling well - in some cases better than those of the european consortium. I like the competition and look forward to future challenges where we (Boeing) can garner more orders and design new, innovative and inspiring birds. Perhaps I will be labeled to be not a true blue aviation fan. I don't happen to agree with that but if that is the case so be it! I am glad we got more orders than EADS. I believe that this will continue to be the case since I believe we have a better product. I am not so glad that they delivered more frames than we did. I believe that this will change in the next few years and that will make me happy.

Elvis777,

No offence intended here but... I noticed you using the 'we' very often in reference to Boeing. Unless you've put any effort into Boeing' products or sales, using the 'we' term is very inappropriate. And to be honest, IMO, it sounds pretty ridiculous to.

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 20):
Is there no one in the european camp

While I tend to prefer Airbus, the European camp sounds a bit to exaggerated IMO. I've always tried to avoid bashing Boeing and will keep doing so.

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 20):
They have raised the bar but I feel that we have met the challenge rather well and will raise the bar above their reach.

Hopefully Boeing does not share this opinion with you (raise the bar above their reach). Underistimating your competitor is foolish atleast...

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 20):
it would be foolish to let our hubris get the better of us again by underestimating their products.
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:02 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 18):
So how many firm orders did Airbus get?

On January 17th, we will know the answer to that question. Until then, Airbus will not confirm the number. So we wait.

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manni
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:10 pm

Quoting N79969 (Reply 22):
am probably less diplomatic than you about it.

I noticed...

Quoting N79969 (Reply 22):
Forgeard and John Leahy are a couple of glory hounds



Quoting N79969 (Reply 22):
He has talk to a little trash.



Quoting N79969 (Reply 22):
Noel Forgeard on the other hand is of dubious value in the business of making and selling airplanes in my view. As far as I can tell, he is a politically-savvy and very-well connected ex-bureaucrat who works diligently for the advancement....of himself mostly.



Quoting N79969 (Reply 22):
Otherwise he seems to be a loose, trouble-making cannon that should either be demoted to a sales job or forced out of the company. He does not strike me as CEO material.



Quoting N79969 (Reply 22):
I wonder how much they will stretch the rules and dates to claim the crown.

If it appears to be the case. Would you be able to accept that Airbus beat Boeing again with orders and deliveries? Or will you keep spreading around doubts and baseless rumours.
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BoomBoom
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:47 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 19):
Does anyone want to figure out how many seats each sold? I think that would be a great idea!

That wouldn't work because some planes are configured with more first and business class seats than coach. You wouldn't count a first class seat with a 60 inch pitch the same as a coach seat with a 31 inch pitch. Just as you don't count as 777 order the same as an A320 order.
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N79969
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:55 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 25):
If it appears to be the case. Would you be able to accept that Airbus beat Boeing again with orders and deliveries? Or will you keep spreading around doubts and baseless rumours.

When it comes to diplomacy or lack of it, you are certainly no better than I.

Baseless? Give me a break. Either Airbus is lying or Boeing is lying. Boeing has stated its number and stuck to it. Everything else I wrote is easily verifiable. It was Forgeard's self-promotion and Machivellian intrigue that screwed things up when they were trying to pick successors at EADS and Airbus. He tried to have Chirac intervene to scrap the co-CEO system so he could run everything on his own and put all of EADS basically under French control...Look at Tom Enders, he acts like a true chief executive.

If Airbus had been silent or just consistent since year end, I would have little reason to be skeptical. Airbus has outsold Boeing in the past 3 years, so why should I or anyone else have a hard time "accepting" that Airbus may have done it again?

But given the conflicting information leaked and not corrected by Airbus, Forgeard's history, and their coy behavior, I hope the media puts whatever Airbus says under a microscope and then do the same at Boeing.

[Edited 2006-01-15 08:55:59]

[Edited 2006-01-15 08:58:39]
 
elvis777
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:20 pm

Hello Manni,

let me blame it on the late time where I live but I do take a bit of offense to some of your comments. I freely used the pronoun we and I should not justify its use. Where do I need to go to submit my bona fides so that I may be allowed to use this pronoun? Is there a list someplace where I can sign up and say that I am officially (Or not) employed by Boeing or one of its subsidiaries? If I do get on that list is there a symbol or label I can put on my posts that verifies this? When we compete in the upcoming Olympics - there I go again using 'we' even though I am not an Olympian- I will embody my country just as the Italians or the Aussies or dare I say the Koreans will. Same thing in the aviation business! I dare say that not understanding this bit of human nature is a bit ridiculous as well.


Manni, I do know that you prefer the european camp - In my opinion it is ok to call it this since it is a european consortium and most any one who supports it then is in that camp. It may be a bit simplistic but hopefully not too much. Some one might disagree with you and state that you bash Boeing, but I just don't care if you do or not. You staunchly defend the european consortium and I thought we might have something in common- that we want our side to win. I simply came out and said what I think many people are feeling and I invited you to join me. If you do not feel the same way as I do then that is ok also!

I sure do hope that Boeing is of the same opinion and strives with all their (our) might to raise the bar above what EADS can reach. This is not just about market share, it goes way above that. I hope that we (Boeing)(I just cant stop myself! I must have embraced the ridicule) compete hard and develop the best birds in the world so that we capture the lions share of the market. I feel much better getting that of my chest! I believe that some our european counterparts clearly understand this, I thought you did as well.

As to your last sentence, I think you misread the last part of my post or you did not understand it.

So since you wont join me in my hall of shame perhaps Keesje or Wings might? If udo was here I surely would invite him as well.

C'mon Keesje and Wings! Jump in, the water is not too cold. Lets hold our heads up high and tell the world that our respective guys (team, company, consortium,brethren,limited liability corporation,anonymous society, manufacturing entity or what have you) is better at designing and building birds than the other fellows team! Lets embrace the ridicule together! We can start a groundswell and turn the table on those that would put us in a leper colony! Lets admit that we are true aviation enthusiasts but that we have a clear preference and hope that our respective birds are the ones taking to the air more often than the other guys!

Peace

Elvis777


A prayer to the pedants that can see the southern cross or lake geneva: Please award a dispensation that will forgive my grammatical sins. I do not make my living writing words. Your forbearance is very much appreciated.
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leelaw
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:29 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 19):
Does anyone want to figure out how many seats each sold? I think that would be a great idea!

What about cargo aircraft, how do you factor in those sales? How about using sales value at list prices as a better yardstick for determining relative sales success? IMO, tallying up unit volume isn't too meaningful.
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:32 pm

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 2):
Sheesh, at this point, who the hell cares who sold more aircraft, both Airbus & Boeing had an amazing year with their respective aircraft sales, cheers...

It should not be that hard--if the contract was signed in 2005, then it counts, if not, a great start on 2006.... Anything else is lying.
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GBan
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:55 pm

Quoting N79969 (Reply 22):
I think some of the gerrymandering of dates and definitions of 'sale' have gotten out of hand. If Airbus actually tries to claim a success by saying that it missed its 200 unit target in 2005 but it is a victory

In a German source (written paper) Forgeard was quoted saying that they missed the target by 10 to 15%, but reached the goal. No idea if this quote is correct or not, but assuming it is one interpretation could be: 10 to 15% above target. I'm wondering why everybody thinks "missing target = below target".

We will see in a couple of days, and personally I don't care anyway.
 
astuteman
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:23 pm

Quoting N79969 (Reply 9):
Noel Forgeard and John Leahy of course. They have egos to defend and reputations to uphold.

You should probably add Mulally + Baseler to that list - I suspect they will be extremely keen to outsell Airbus  Yeah sure
 
BoomBoom
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:22 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 24):
On January 17th, we will know the answer to that question.

Okay--let me rephrase that: how many announced firm orders did the A350 have as December 31? This supposes there were some A350 orders firmed before the end of the year, but Airbus just didn't tell us yet.
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:43 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 33):
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 24):
On January 17th, we will know the answer to that question.

Okay--let me rephrase that: how many announced firm orders did the A350 have as December 31? This supposes there were some A350 orders firmed before the end of the year, but Airbus just didn't tell us yet.

No doubt there were more A350 orders firmed in December. It appears that you still miss the point that Boeing update their firm orders website on a weekly basis, whilst Airbus do so on a monthly basis.

Airbus, have been quite clear. They will announce their 2005 sales on January 17th, this will include all contracts signed up until December 31. Respectfully, you are asking a question which only Airbus can answer, an answer which will be provided on the date they stated. In the meantime we only have announced firm orders up to November 30 which stand at 49

I re-iterate, for 2005 year end total announced firmed A350 orders booked that we wait until the 17th when Airbus will update their site.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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abba
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:57 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
Already, each side has begun to quietly question whether its competitor is trying to pad its numbers by counting orders before they are backed by signed contracts and cash deposits. Each company insists that its order accounting is honest.

I really do love this one!

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):
I think it will be more tellling as to what the bottom line for both companies are in the civil aviation sector....

That's where the truth of the matter will come out...

 checkmark 

And perhaps the fierce competition lately has meant that the margins in the lower end of the widebody market is not as fat as they used to be!

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 20):
I care who wins the order and delivery race. I really truly do. It is clear that I believe the best engineering and science is in our side and it makes me happy that our products are selling well - in some cases better than those of the european consortium.



Quoting N79969 (Reply 22):
I am right with you. I certainly do care and am probably less diplomatic than you about it. And I think it is natural for the companies themselves to care as it as a normal part of rivalry.

Utterly ridiculous. Who wonder that discussions sometimes get well below the standard that they could have been achieved whit so many informed people offering their opinions here. Why not open a forum where the misplaced sportsfans can enjoy themselves?

Quoting N79969 (Reply 22):
Forgeard and John Leahy are a couple of glory hounds.

Funny! This is certainly a paradox!! Airbus has managed to become one of the two dominating players in world aviation even if two people of such low quality have played important roles in the organization. Forgeard even as CEO. One must only conclude based on an analysis as deep and profound as the one offered above that the Boeing management must have been far worse! Unless the Boeing team has been complete and utter idiots Airbus would never have had even the slightest of chances to get to where they are today!

Abba
 
BoomBoom
Topic Author
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:06 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 34):
It appears that you still miss the point that Boeing update their firm orders website on a weekly basis, whilst Airbus do so on a monthly basis.

Sorry for asking a question, PanAm_DC10. No need to get your undies in a bunch! It appears the answer to my question is 49--a far cry from 180.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
atnight
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:27 pm

Reading some of the posts here, anyone without a take on either side (like me), finds funny and close to ridiculous how they defend or attack the other company.. Some just can't accept facts, some are blind to defend their preferred company till death, even if they make a fool of themselves....

Now, for the sake of this thread topic, I will state the facts and hope folks learn to accept them.. I know my following statements will appear to Boeing' fans as though I'm pro Airbus, but that is not the truth, I just want to make sure you understand what are the actual facts.


Please understand this... The Airbus A350 has indeed outsold the B787 in both planes' initial "for sale" year.... Boeing sold 56 Firm orders in 2004 and Airbus is above 100+ firm... Boeing fans, don't try to downplay that fact... The A350 has had a better off-start, but that doesn't mean it will outsell the B787, it just means they did better initially when compared to the B787.... OK? let that go....

Now, Boeing itself has said that what really matters is deliveries more than number of sales, with that in mind, Airbus has more deliveries that Boeing for 2005, so if we go with Boeing's own words, Airbus is still the bigger manufacturer for 2005.... So although Boeing has sold more planes on 2005 (some may argue that we have to wait till jan 17, but I believe they did sell more than Airbus), because of what they themselves said, they should stick to their statements and still not claim victory but praise their awesome record year! So Boeing fans, if you support your company, support it all the way and stick to what Boeing said was more important... so you have to let go and allow Airbus to win this one too, if you are true to your company's own ideas of the "winner"... (just remember how it was when Boeing had more deliveries but less sales, and many of you supported Boeing as the bigger manufacturer because of that, so be consistent)

The last little fact that some seem don't understand, is that there is a proportional manufacture cost with every airplane that is sold... so those of you who say that Boeing sold more money than Airbus because they sold more wide-bodies (which of course is true), and that makes Boeing the bigger company because they brought in more money, have to consider that what's important is not how much money a company rakes in, but how much of that money is profit!! A wide-body costs a lot more than a single-isle, but remember that a wide-body also costs a lot more to make, and that is just common sense.... therefore, since we don't have the figures for profit, is better to stay AWAY from making such statements as you only start a war that neither side can win, and on the contrary, you look silly claiming victory about numbers that are made in your head.... We have no idea how much discount is giving to airlines when they place their orders, and because of that, if you want to be a honest analyst of a particular company, you will stick to what is available and what is known rather than your speculation...

Now, Airbus fans, just embrace the fact that Boeing outsold Airbus in numbers and that Boeing is going to be very very tough to beat this year in orders (and in a few years in deliveries)... Things just started and is going to be a great year in the battle for the "best in sales" company....
B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
 
A319XFW
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting Atnight (Reply 37):
A wide-body costs a lot more than a single-isle, but remember that a wide-body also costs a lot more to make, and that is just common sense.... therefore, since we don't have the figures for profit, is better to stay AWAY from making such statements as you only start a war that neither side can win, and on the contrary, you look silly claiming victory about numbers that are made in your head....

Sorry to nit-pick on an otherwise good post - but from what I have heard/read, the profits on a large aircraft are larger than the profits on a small aircraft. Yes, perhaps this last year there has been some heavy discounting going on, but that didn't happen all the time.
After all, it was originally predicted that the A380 would break even at 250 delivered and for a smaller aircraft this number is higher (so the profits off a smaller number of aircraft is better than the profits for a large number of aircraft, if this makes sense).
 
BoomBoom
Topic Author
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting Atnight (Reply 37):
The Airbus A350 has indeed outsold the B787 in both planes' initial "for sale" year.... Boeing sold 56 Firm orders in 2004 and Airbus is above 100+ firm..

If Airbus had 49 firm orders at the end of November then they would have had to firm up another 51+ in December to get to 100+ firm.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
leelaw
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:08 pm

Quoting Atnight (Reply 37):
Please understand this... The Airbus A350 has indeed outsold the B787 in both planes' initial "for sale" year.... Boeing sold 56 Firm orders in 2004 and Airbus is above 100+ firm... Boeing fans, don't try to downplay that fact... The A350 has had a better off-start, but that doesn't mean it will outsell the B787, it just means they did better initially when compared to the B787.... OK? let that go....

But for the 787, there would be no A350 at this point in history. Actually, the advent of the 787 has been good for both OEMs, as it has reinvigorated a market segment that was somewhat stagnant. I seriously doubt whether an additional 550+ A332s and 767s would have been ordered in the absence of the 787/A350 programs.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
jacobin777
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting Abba (Reply 35):
And perhaps the fierce competition lately has meant that the margins in the lower end of the widebody market is not as fat as they used to be!

true, but its better to sell your product at a lower margin than to have your competitor sell a competing product...of course, there is the law of diminishing returns...but I think the margins are good enough for Boeing...
"Up the Irons!"
 
N79969
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 32):
You should probably add Mulally + Baseler to that list - I suspect they will be extremely keen to outsell Airbus Yeah sure

I do not think it would be accurate to put them in the same camp though. Boeing has been led by engineers for years. In fact, if you look at the last few years in which Airbus overtook Boeing it was because Airbus was customer-focused while Boeing's aloof engineers could or would not recognize the importance of customer service.

The United States has its share of prima-donna businessmen and women like Forgeard. No question. But I think they are not to be found at Boeing or at other engineering firms...I think our really big heads gravitate towards investment banking, venture capital, and so on.

Quoting Abba (Reply 35):
Utterly ridiculous. Who wonder that discussions sometimes get well below the standard that they could have been achieved whit so many informed people offering their opinions here. Why not open a forum where the misplaced sportsfans can enjoy themselves?

Coming from the master of illogical and contrived "discussion", this vindicates me in that I must be on the right track. For those of us who actually have a clue about the nature of competition between Airbus and Boeing and the stakes for the United States and Europe, these outcomes are of more than passing interest. They have big implications for economies.

Quoting Abba (Reply 35):
This is certainly a paradox!! Airbus has managed to become one of the two dominating players in world aviation even if two people of such low quality have played important roles in the organization. Forgeard even as CEO. One must only conclude based on an analysis as deep and profound as the one offered above that the Boeing management must have been far worse! Unless the Boeing team has been complete and utter idiots Airbus would never have had even the slightest of chances to get to where they are today!

I did say Leahy is a good businessman who deserves a great deal of credit. Go read again. I am not quite sure what Forgeard has contributed to Airbus while CEO. I did not say he was completely useless but I am saying that he is far more trouble than he is worth. Europe has legions of talented execs that could do the job without all of his dramatics.

Go look what I wrote above. Until the past year or so, Boeing was run by a bunch of aloof engineers, was arrogant, and slow to act. They paid the price and are still trying to recover lost ground. Now they have finally figured out how to combine their engineering strengths with a decent customers and they have began a very impressive turnaround.
 
keesje
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:42 am

Elvis  Smile

if have nothing against Boeing. To proof it, is not so hard:

Boeing 737 Next Gen Backlog Breakdown
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2540383

Boeing 747-8 Details, New Wing, FBW, EIS Dates

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2539477

Numerous positive Boeing threads I started:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...e+boeing&search_order=id&starter=1

Problem is some of the more die-hard B fans have taken their enthousiasm to the next level: "If you´re not with us, you´re against us" (don´t where they got it).

So questioning anything that could question the superiority of their beloved factory is seen as bashing & puts one in the A camp.

I must admit I can be provoked to pull the plug if it becomes too couzy in a Boeing hot tub here on a.net. But try to never make it personal & back up with facts. Personally I get along with Boeing people & products very good.




So for you Elvis777, N79969 and Boomboom, a Sunday Special  Wink




http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...hnology/2002740839_toulouse15.html

How the other half builds By Dominic Gates

Seattle Times aerospace reporter
Toulouse, France —

Among a crew of clean-cut young workers here, a fresh-faced 19-year-old rivets and bolts an airplane together.

The Airbus final-assembly buildings could never be mistaken for Boeing facilities in the Pacific Northwest, where the average age of mechanics is 49 and long, gray hair predominates.

A more fundamental difference looms inside the 25-acre final-assembly hall for the Airbus A380. It's a five-story-high metal superstructure where all the major pieces of the massive plane are joined together at once. This fixed jig is monumental evidence that Airbus takes a very different approach to airplane assembly than Boeing.

As the A380 and 777 manufacturing plans demonstrate, production systems at Airbus and Boeing are increasingly divergent. And yet, Boeing may well borrow from the approach used in Toulouse for its next airplane, the 787.





Hey, it´s not my words, it´s a reliable source!

 wink  wink  wink  wink  wink 
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
N79969
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 43):
Elvis Smile

if have nothing against Boeing. To proof it, is not so hard:

Boeing 737 Next Gen Backlog Breakdown
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2540383

Boeing 747-8 Details, New Wing, FBW, EIS Dates
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2539477

Numerous positive Boeing threads I started:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...e+boeing&search_order=id&starter=1

Problem is some of the more die-hard B fans have taken their enthousiasm to the next level: "If you�re not with us, you�re against us" (don�t where they got it).

So questioning anything that could question the superiority of their beloved factory is seen as bashing & puts one in the A camp.

I must admit I can be provoked to pull the plug if it becomes too couzy in a Boeing hot tub here on a.net. But try to never make it personal & back up with facts.

Keesje,

First, I think it is totally fine to prefer one brand over and another for whatever reasons. It is fine.

But you can start all the threads you want and write all the disclaimers, you choose....you regularly malign Boeing and its products very often without facts of any kind.
 
leelaw
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 43):
As the A380 and 777 manufacturing plans demonstrate, production systems at Airbus and Boeing are increasingly divergent. And yet, Boeing may well borrow from the approach used in Toulouse for its next airplane, the 787.

Actually Keesje, I think both OEM's are adopting production methods that make the most sense for specific programs. Neither has a monopoly on wisdom:

"A new moving assembly line has been built in Hamburg to speed up the production of Airbus' A320 Family aircraft.

The Airbus moving line - the first to be implemented in Germany - will cut component lead times by 40 percent from the current nine to five working days, while saving money and ensuring a steady increase of production rates for the single-aisle Family and a constant quality transparency.

The moving line - in its purpose-built hangar - will help Airbus ramp up production for its best-selling A320 Family up to 30 aircraft per month by next year. The fuselage sections of the Airbus models A318, A319 and A321 will now be equipped using the flow principle.

With this new process in place, components remain on their jigs and move at a speed of one metre per hour from the first to the last of nine workstations in all. In contrast to assembly work in fixed docks, the fuselages will no longer have to be moved onto the next individual workstation by crane. This means that there is no need to interrupt the work process as was the case up to now.

The first moving line was set up at the Broughton A320 Family plant in North Wales in 2002. Wings being built there move forward every 13 hours through each of the 11 assembly stations. The process has helped save up to 250 hours of "waiting" per wing set while helping improve quality and efficiency.

Airbus is planning to use the moving assembly line for other aircraft families such as the A330 and A340 from next year. Plans are also under way to study the feasibility of similarly having a moving line for interior equipment fitting on the A380 from 2008."

http://www.airbus.com/en/myairbus/fe...ures_items/12_7_05_movingline.html
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
abba
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 38):
Sorry to nit-pick on an otherwise good post - but from what I have heard/read, the profits on a large aircraft are larger than the profits on a small aircraft

Well that might be true from a historic point of view. However, past is not future!

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 40):
But for the 787, there would be no A350 at this point in history. Actually, the advent of the 787 has been good for both OEMs, as it has reinvigorated a market segment that was somewhat stagnant

Amen! (And don't forget us - the flying public!)

Quoting N79969 (Reply 44):
But you can start all the threads you want and write all the disclaimers, you choose....you regularly malign Boeing and its products very often without facts of any kind

Mama mia - here we go again!

Abba
 
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scbriml
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:02 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 41):
but I think the margins are good enough for Boeing...

If I remember correctly, the published 9-month figures for 2005 were something like 6.8% for Boeing and 11.5% for Airbus.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:08 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 36):
Sorry for asking a question, PanAm_DC10. No need to get your undies in a bunch! It appears the answer to my question is 49--a far cry from 180.

They're in no bunch at all BoomBoom. Nor shall feigning ignorance of the facts on your behalf by claiming that you were just asking a question work with me either. The number, at this stage, is 49. You knew it and you can't wait 2 days to get an answer?

But hey? Aren't you, in your own words, a Boeing cheerleader who likes to tweak Airbus cheerleaders

I'm neither sir, but I'll be the first to defend either from the likes of you. Why not accentuate the positive and just recognise how good a year 2005 was for both.

PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
Tifoso
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RE: WSJ: Boeing & Airbus Both Claim Victory

Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting Abba (Reply 46):

Well that might be true from a historic point of view. However, past is not future!

What? Are you saying that margins on widebodies today are lesser than what they were in the past? Can you back up this claim?