OttoPylit
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TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:23 am

Maybe someone can help me figure this out. Did TWA ever operate any international cities from STL and if so, which ones? Or did all all of their international flights go out of JFK? A coworker of mine and I have a bet as to if TLV was ever served directly from STL or only from JFK. I do remember seeing 747's take off from STL in 1995, but I figured they were domestic flights to JFK for international operations.

So, how many and what international cities have been served by TW from STL?

And, has TLV ever been served non-stop from STL?



OttoPylit
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September11
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
what international cities have been served by TW from STL?

London Gatwick
Paris

and more
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quickmover
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:38 am

Daily STL-LGW
Daily STL-CDG
Daily STL-FRA was planned but didn't start because of the merger.

LGW was once twice daily during peak season with 767-200s
 
LambertMan
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:39 am

TWA operated quite a few international cities from STL. During the STL hubs peak it was ZIH, MEX, PVR, CUN, SJU, YYZ, YVR (seasonal), LGW, MBJ, CZM, CDG (seasonal), FRA (planned and announced), MAN (planned), and FCO (planned).

-LGW was operated for the vast majority of the time there was a hub in STL
-CDG struggled to hang on as a seasonal city but almost always was brough back
-FRA was operated for a short period in the early 90's and was planned to restart in '00 but AA cancelled it
-MAN and FCO were planned and were nearing an announcement prior to the AA acquisition
-Most of the Mexican cities were operated most of the time along with the two canadian destinations, many thought that YUL would be in the plans at some point

TLV, to my knowledge has never been served from STL. I believe TW served TLV from JFK as an extension of a Cairo flight.
 
Air1727
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:46 am

London-Gatwick, Paris, and Frankfurt all operated non-stop from Saint Louis. Tel-Aviv was never served non-stop from Saint Louis.
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cle757
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:55 am

NRT was planned, but never happend.
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BigGSFO
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:29 am

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 5):
NRT was planned, but never happend.

...as was MAD.
 
malaysia
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:30 am

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 5):
NRT was planned, but never happend.

yes and with the 767-200!

It was going to be MCO-STL-NRT
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TWA902fly
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:32 am

Quoting September11 (Reply 1):
I believe TW served TLV from JFK as an extension of a Cairo flight.

Actually i believe the TLV flight was nonstop out of JFK as well as CAI. The CAI flight continued on to RUH. Im going to try to look this up, I have a timetable somewhere from 1997.

'902
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OttoPylit
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 5):
NRT was planned, but never happend.

I did not see that one coming. Their presence in Asia was, well, basically what DL's is now. LOL

Quoting Air1727 (Reply 4):
Tel-Aviv was never served non-stop from Saint Louis.



Quoting LambertMan (Reply 3):
I believe TW served TLV from JFK as an extension of a Cairo flight.

Well I just won 30 bucks. Thanks guys. BTW, how were their Cairo flights? Considering they were the only CAI carrier from the US, with a quick run of flights by DL before 9/11, was CAI ever really a moneymaker for them, or how else did they make a profit from that route?




OttoPylit
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LambertMan
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:35 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 6):
...as was MAD.

No, I'm pretty sure it wasn't. I did a class project with one of the big wigs in the TWA routing/planning department shortly after he was laid off. My mom works with his wife and was able to setup an interview for me for some bs class project I initially didnt want to do (till I found him). He just mumbled but he told me some pretty cool stuff about his job and TW.

The NRT flight as I understood was planned only if TW could get something done with STL customs, I can't remember what it was for sure.
 
ftrguy
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:40 am

I flew on TW from TLV-STL via JFK in Jun of 1999. It turned out to be the same aircraft on both legs, but a different flight number. The flight had come from JFK and I distinctly remember CAI having its own round-trip from JFK.
 
WA727
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:49 am

While it was not nonstop, I flew TW STL-PHL-LHR (no change of plane) in August, 1985, on a 767, 200 or 300 ER. I was lucky enough to be reassigned to Ambassador (business) Class. Then, business class was better than first class today on similiar carriers.

Is the new runway open yet at STL?
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TUNisia
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 8):
Actually i believe the TLV flight was nonstop out of JFK as well as CAI. The CAI flight continued on to RUH. Im going to try to look this up, I have a timetable somewhere from 1997.

Yes the JFK-CAI flight went on to RUH (Riyadh, Saudi Arabia) for sure  Smile

This was also around the time a Saudi Prince (Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Bin Abdulaziz Al-Saud) acquired 5% of TWA in stock (2 million shares at the time) in 1997. I actually think TWA started service to RUH in 1995-1997 or right around that time. I must consult my collection of Ambassador mags to be sure. Anyways, JFK-TLV was the most prized route for TWA right until AA axed it for no good reason.

PLEASE ... if ANYONE knows info on the TWA RUH operations I'd love to talk to you, please message me! I've been dying to hear about this rare route. Anyone know if there are any pics out there of TWA jets at RUH?
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Whataboutme
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 9):
Quoting CLE757 (Reply 5):
NRT was planned, but never happend.

I did not see that one coming. Their presence in Asia was, well, basically what DL's is now. LOL

NRT was a planned route. I believed it was going to have a fuel stop in ANC. I believe that TW was looking into some 777 at one time to do NRT.
 
TUNisia
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:15 pm

Here's a scan from the August 2000 TWA Ambassador magazine showing INTL routes...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/unreclaimed/twa.jpg
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
atrude777
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:50 pm

Quoting Wa727 (Reply 12):
Is the new runway open yet at STL?

Nope, not yet. April of 2006 I think?

Alex
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malaysia
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:53 pm

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 13):
Anyone know if there are any pics out there of TWA jets at RUH?

I could have taken a good picture of TWA back in RUH, but it was unfortunately 23:00 and pitch black and I only had a standard 35mm and it would come out bad. TWA flew to RUH in the middle of the night for a short stopover before returning to CAI, thats why you never see any RUH TWA pics. All I have are my day shots from JED. and its all SV stuff
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malaysia
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:55 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 9):
I did not see that one coming. Their presence in Asia was, well, basically what DL's is now. LOL

More like US Airways which has not even touched the far-east for the past few years as well. not counting TWA along long time ago with old Okinawa and Hong Kong etc.
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TriStar500
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:06 pm

The STL-FRA route in the early 1990's was operated by B767-200(ER). Saw them a couple of times at Rhein-Main-Airport.
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PanHAM
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:50 pm

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 19):
The STL-FRA route in the early 1990's was operated by B767-200(ER). Saw them a couple of times at Rhein-Main-Airport.

indeed. And they needed a loadfactor of 120% including C to make money on that flight. It was cancelled after one or two seasons.
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OzarkD9S
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:30 pm

TWA applied for STL-MAD, but was turned down by Spain.

TLV was operated in the 90's via JFK but with a change of aircraft (same flight number, however).

At times when the seasonal STL-CDG wasn't operated nonstop it was often routed through BOS (again in the 90's).
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sevenheavy
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:55 pm

As stated the only non stop STL-Europe routes were CDG and LGW. However the LGW route for some time continued on to FRA on the same aircraft.

The majority of European service were operated via JFK and to a lessor extent BOS, PHL and BWI/IAD.

Somewhat ironically TWA's longest STL route in terms of flying time .was a domestic one - TW001 to HNL. Until the last couple of years this was a B747. It then became a B763 and sometimes even a B752 that had to route through LAX westbound for fuel.

For most of TWA's existence you did not have to be flying internationally from STL to fly widebodies. B747/L1011/B767 were extremely common on flights to BOS, JFK, MIA, LAX, SFO, SAN, PHX, ABQ, LAS, SEA, ORD and MCI amongst others.

Imagine that occurring now!

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PanHAM
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:52 pm

@ Sevenheavy - the 762 FRA/STL was a fact. It may have been a continuation of an LGW service as well, but it did operate N/S FRA/STL and was discontinued due to the financial situation of TWA and the fact that they were loosing money on the route.

747s and TriStars were a common sight in STL indeed, and I might add to your list PHL, one of my flights through STL was a 1011 service SFO/STL/PHL.
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Whataboutme
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting SevenHeavy (Reply 22):
even a B752 that had to route through LAX westbound for fuel.

The 757 flight to HNL was a second flight Saturday only. Flight 1 was a 767 daily.
 
ilyag
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:20 pm

TLV-STL was operated via JFK and had its own flight number (something like 89x, other than 885 used for TLV-JFK). I took it back in 98 - it was 741 on TLV-JFK leg and then MD80. T5 in JFK was a great experience.
 
texan
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 7):
Quoting CLE757 (Reply 5):
NRT was planned, but never happend.

yes and with the 767-200!



Quoting Whataboutme (Reply 14):
NRT was a planned route. I believed it was going to have a fuel stop in ANC. I believe that TW was looking into some 777 at one time to do NRT

TW had the slots for NRT and were considering operating the route. From what I've been told, they were just waiting for the A330 to be delivered. When Icahn pulled the rug out from under that deal at the last second, NRT was scrapped, as were the rest of TW's overseas expansion plans.

Texan
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quickmover
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 23):



Quoting Whataboutme (Reply 24):
The 757 flight to HNL was a second flight Saturday only. Flight 1 was a 767 daily.

That's true, but for a short period of time, 757s were the only service. I believe it had something to do with when they retired all the 747s and a 767-300 delivery was delayed. The flight stopped in LAX on the way to HNL, but could make it back nonstop to STL because of the winds.

BTW, Did they ever fly STL-HNL with the L1011? I know they did from LAX at one time.
 
chase
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:53 pm

Quoting Wa727 (Reply 12):
I flew TW STL-PHL-LHR (no change of plane) in August, 1985

Here's a weird one: I once flew TW STL-DAY-EWR-MUC, all on the same plane. This was in June '94.
 
malaysia
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 27):

TWA flew the 757 as the only direct HNL flight from DCA

DCA-LAX-HNL

TWA sure had some beautiful routes before AA pilaged them.
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malaysia
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting Texan (Reply 26):
TW had the slots for NRT and were considering operating the route. From what I've been told, they were just waiting for the A330 to be delivered. When Icahn pulled the rug out from under that deal at the last second, NRT was scrapped, as were the rest of TW's overseas expansion plans.

What I was told was it was going to be non-stop 767-200ER with a total of 180 something seat config specially for NRT. till the A330 came, but TWA was getting A330-300 not 200 so that would be less range.
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quickmover
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:08 am

I believe those A330s were cancelled and changed to A318 and A319s the same time they ordered the 717s. The problem with NRT was getting facilities and slots there if I recall.
 
AA717driver
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:12 am

There used to be a same-plane-service to MUC via CDG.

The NRT was awarded maybe in 2000 but the Japanese wouldn't grant any slots. :rolleyes: That made the route authority worthless. The 330's were never considered for that route--they were a dead issue by that time. In fact, the options may have already been converted to A318's.

The company would have operated that route with 76-200ER's. These would have been the "real" ER version with true long range tanks installed. The "ER's" the TWA did operate were some of the first 767's produced and a few were even straight 767-200's converted to early "ER" standard. We could do LGW-STL year round but CDG-STL was pushing the limit even in the summer.TC
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BHMNONREV
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting AA717driver (Reply 32):
The NRT was awarded maybe in 2000 but the Japanese wouldn't grant any slots. :rolleyes: That made the route authority worthless. The 330's were never considered for that route--they were a dead issue by that time. In fact, the options may have already been converted to A318's.

You are correct sir on the A318 statement. By the time TW was awarded STL-NRT, the A330's were a distant memory, with the production slots being converted to the A320 family, primarily the A318. In fact, STL-NRT would be the only route which would see the 767-200ER, because the remaining 762's in the TW fleet would have been phased out by then. I believe not only slots but the Asian economic crisis in the late 90's were the main culprits in the service never getting started.

As a side note to the comments about STL-FRA service, this was stopped and started several times, with the last flights operating in the early-to-mid 90's. In 2000 TW was to start seasonal service, as LambertMan stated.
 
malaysia
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 33):
primarily the A318

I always wondered what the reason was behind that? since does the A318 mix well with a 717?
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quickmover
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 34):
I always wondered what the reason was behind that? since does the A318 mix well with a 717?

I believe they had some deposits with Airbus for the 330 and it was either use it or lose it. The 318 needed a launch order so they allowed the switch.
 
iflymax
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:44 am

I remember TWA Flight 800 JFK - CDG - (L-1011) and a change of plane (to a 762) for an independent flight to MUC. The second flight (Christmas of 1992) was almost empty...I was under the impression that they had a small intra-European network for a while....
 
SmithAir747
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Chase (Reply 28):
Here's a weird one: I once flew TW STL-DAY-EWR-MUC, all on the same plane. This was in June '94.

What plane were you on for that strange flight?

By the way, TWA brings back so many fond memories of my first international trip (TWA IND-JFK-MAD return on DC-9 and 747 aircraft) in 1994, and my only other TWA trip (DAY-STL-MCO return), in 2001.

SmithAir747
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jmy007
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:21 am

TWA made a big deal in the summer of 1985 for the three new international routes being used out of the newly expanded C concourse.
Of course the routes were LGW,CDG,FRA.
LGW stayed on for a better part of 18 years. With some year (like 1991) when the first Gulf War was on, and perhaps a couple of others when the service was seasonal. Once TWA dropped all LHR, STL-LGW became year round up until it's end with AA 2 years ago or so.
CDG- Was for a time year round when it started. But it then became a summer seasonal route. For many years, until it was dropped, and the flight went through BOS. (late 90's)
FRA-IIRC this flight was a summer seasonal up until after the first gulf war. Of course, as discussed here, there was a flight was an add on in London, and was to be restarted in 2000/01.
I remember talk about moving all international flights from C to the East terminal, where they have plenty of room, and accommodate the NRT flights, and the new Euro flights. Sadly, this never came to pass.

TLV- For a time in the 80's and 90's, the TLV flight originated in STL. It flew STL-JFK-TLV. Though I think it was plane change on most of the time.
MXP I believe was another that started in STL.
I remember seeing those city's on the display monitors at Lambert. I also have a bunch of old timetables that can back that info up as well. But I can not remember the exact years at this time
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BHMNONREV
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 34):
I always wondered what the reason was behind that? since does the A318 mix well with a 717?

Not necessarily, but in TWA's case it did. The 717 was to be the primary short-to-medium haul aircraft from STL replacing the many DC-9's which were in the TW fleet, while the A318 would serve long, thinner routes from JFK and STL. Airbus gave TW the option of converting the remaining airframe options into any mix of A318 to A321. I believe Airbus figured that if they gave TW enough of a sweetheart deal they would ultimately replace their Boeing narrowbody fleet with the A320 series....
 
Orion737
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:21 am

STL-LGW was a long standing TW route and a busy one. A daily service, even twice daily for a time, were offered and it was a year round service.

I wonder why AA discontinued such a long standing international route, especially when most US carriers are looking to increase international routes to offset poor domestic performance? Bring it back AA, please!
 
timz
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 27):
Did they ever fly STL-HNL with the L1011?

I doubt they ever had a nonstop L1011.
 
LambertMan
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 40):
I wonder why AA discontinued such a long standing international route, especially when most US carriers are looking to increase international routes to offset poor domestic performance? Bring it back AA, please!

AA discontinued it because it had a better opportunity in Dallas. It comes down to a route that will make money versus a route that you hope will make money. AA has done the obvious thing, especially without the massive feed St. Louis once had.

The St. Louis AD has said that one of his priorities is to get service back to London. He'll need a little help from the metro area plus some faith by either AA or BA.........
 
BigGSFO
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 41):
Quoting Quickmover (Reply 27):
Did they ever fly STL-HNL with the L1011?

I doubt they ever had a nonstop L1011.

TW's L10's didn't have the range for it. Only the L15 could do this route and TW had none of the -500's in their fleet.

I remember TW720/TW721: LAX-STL-LGW with a 747.
 
Air1727
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 41):
Quoting Quickmover (Reply 27):
Did they ever fly STL-HNL with the L1011?

I doubt they ever had a nonstop L1011.

We never used the L-1011 on STL-HNL non-stop; only the -250 and -500 variants could complete that run and we never operated them. In 1979 STL-HNL was announced and was going to be flown using the 707-300C (twice weekly IIRC) - but the service was cancelled before it ever started.

[Edited 2006-01-17 21:23:07]
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atrude777
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 42):
The St. Louis AD has said that one of his priorities is to get service back to London. He'll need a little help from the metro area plus some faith by either AA or BA.........

a WHOOOOLE lota faith  Wink


Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
BigGSFO
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:27 am

Quoting Air1727 (Reply 44):
We never used the L-1011 on STL-HNL non-stop; only the -250 and -500 variants could complete that run and we never operated them. In 1979 STL-HNL was announced and was going to be flown using the 707-300C (twice weekly IIRC) - but the service was cancelled before it ever started.

There was also a very short-lived JFK-HNL 747 non-stop. It was then moved to TW01/TW02: JFK-STL-HNL. When TW got rid of the 747's the flight went to a 767.

It hasn't been mentioned yet, but Montego Bay was once served from STL twice a week IIRC.
 
quickmover
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:30 am

So the L10s were mainly domestic and Europe? I never thought about it, but most of JFK-Europe would be shorter than STL-HNL. Does anyone know what the longest route TWA had with the 1011s?
 
Air1727
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 46):
There was also a very short-lived JFK-HNL 747 non-stop. It was then moved to TW01/TW02: JFK-STL-HNL. When TW got rid of the 747's the flight went to a 767.

It hasn't been mentioned yet, but Montego Bay was once served from STL twice a week IIRC.

We only did JFK-HNL one day a week and it only lasted for one season. Nassau and Freeport were also served non-stop from STL using L-1011s as well.

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 47):
Does anyone know what the longest route TWA had with the 1011s?

We ran the L-1011-100 on IAD-CDG and JFK-FRA which are both approx 3300nm - I believe those were the longest non-stop L-1011 runs in the network.
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
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RE: TWA International Flights From STL

Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 47):
Does anyone know what the longest route TWA had with the 1011s?

Probably JFK-FRA. TW also used their L10's for PIT-LGW which they served prior to moving that authority to STL.

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