apollo13
Posts: 559
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Kai Tak Takeoffs

Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:42 pm

Okay so we all know about the famous IGS 13 approaches with the Checkerboard turn, no i was wondering about takeoffs, where the lanes takeoff towards the mountains, do they have to make the same turn in the same direction going left over the city, or did they just fly right over the hills and mountains?
 
centrair
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RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:12 pm

When I flew out of Kai Tak, we left over the harbour.

But when I flew in on NW, we came in over the harbour. But that was because it was at night.

Then again I was like 17 years old.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Coronado990
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RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:29 pm

Yes, they made the turn. Saw a UA 744 do it.
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
TR
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Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 1:28 am

RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:45 pm

Quoting Apollo13 (Thread starter):
make the same turn in the same direction going left over the city, or did they just fly right over the hills and mountains

I have experienced these takeoffs with Cathay, Lufthansa, SAS & Swissair. They all made the turn. However I didn't find the takeoffs as spectacular as the landings. Maybe because you often experience course changes immediately after takeoff at many big airports.

BTW I doubt that any (large) aircraft could make it over the hills/mountains. I'd say you'd have a crash. But maybe someone with cockpit experience at Kai Tak can add to this.
 
trex8
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RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:37 pm

you could probably make it over the "mountains" - they are actually more like hills where Lion Rock is, but the problem going straight north was that you would then be in Chinese airspace very quickly.
 
swissy
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RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:06 pm

I was flying in the early to mid 90's with CX on a regular basis to HKG and we
always came in over the city (wowwwwwwww) and take off torwards the bay with a right turn.

Cheers,
 
cloudyapple
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Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 4):
you could probably make it over the "mountains" - they are actually more like hills where Lion Rock is, but the problem going straight north was that you would then be in Chinese airspace very quickly.

No you cant. Lion rock s 1600' and ~2Nm from the upwind threshold. Calculate yourself the climb gradient required to clear the hill top + a 1500' MOCA.
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Tristarsteve
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RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:28 pm

Flying the GF Tristar simulator back in 1985, we made it over the hills!
Gave me a fright, I wasn't ready for it and they look awfully close.
 
DABTH
Posts: 64
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RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:34 pm

Once saw an Alitalia MD 11 which climbed straight out over the mountains.
I own an old video with Kai Tak approaches and departures. As far as I know most flights departed via Rw13 straight over the bay and only a very few used it the other way around because of the prevailing winds in the area.

rgds
 
Airbus_A340
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2000 8:41 pm

RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:09 am

"Once saw an Alitalia MD 11 which climbed straight out over the mountains."

In my 13 years of living on Beacon Hill, with perfect views of approaches and take-offs, as many screw ups I have seen- I have never ever heard anything remotely as bizzare as that. I've spoken to other people who have heard the same thing too with other airlines and aircraft....bizzare!! It's unbelieveable that it can happen!!!!

[Edited 2006-01-20 16:19:16]
People. They make an airline. www.cathaypacific.com
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
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RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:19 am

Please find the following archived SID plate for RWY31 VHXX. The SID makes a 60deg left turn immediately on climb thru the upwind end of the runway. There is absolutely no way anything flying straight on - see obstacle height indications on the plate.
http://www.swiremariners.com/31depart.html

Also this is the RWY31 STAR plate. The miss appraoch procedure is a 30deg left turn over the harbour DCT SC. Again no chance scraping the lion rocks.
http://www.swiremariners.com/31laimun.html
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:34 am


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Samuel Lo

Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:25 am

Not sure what you are trying to show but the cathay is doing the 60deg turn. Re:SID plates - you can basically join up the 1523' and the 1975' peaks - that forms a range like a wall which departures never hop over. The picture is taken from the south west towards the north east close to the upwind end. The mountain in the back is close to the 1975' peak.
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Boeing747_600
Posts: 605
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RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:33 am

seems like a pretty straightforward approach if your aircraft can handle the turn radius which shouldnt be a problem Under 200 knots for even the heaviest of the heavies. Now I'd would've liked to have seen the An 225 do that  Smile
 
MarshalN
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:39 am

RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:53 am

Yes, in all my years going to school under the flight path I have never seen a plane that goes over the hills. They always turn left (that's the only open way to avoid the hills) and go over Kowloon Tong in various angles. The noisiest were always the Dragonair 732s...
 
kaitak
Posts: 8935
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RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:07 am

I've seen more than a few crazy AZ landings at HKG (how they managed to avoid losing an '11 at HKG is a miracle ... I can just see the cockpit checklist: QNH, set and cross checked, gear - down, rosaries - third sorrowful mysteries ...)

Anyway, moving swiftly along, the one thing I always regret is that I never got the chance to experience an MTOW t/o from 31. Most airlines, when the winds required a 31 departure, had to cut down on weight considerably, but CX was allowed to do so at MTOW; I remember seeing a CX -400 taking off from 31 in 1993; was that ever an experience!
 
MarshalN
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:39 am

RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 15):
Most airlines, when the winds required a 31 departure, had to cut down on weight considerably, but CX was allowed to do so at MTOW;

Really? Didn't know that. I guess they presume the pilots know what to do, although doesn't this give CX a competetive advantage, however slim?

I have probably been in one or two of these flights as I remember back then those YVR flights were ALWAYS full
 
trex8
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Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 6):
No you cant. Lion rock s 1600' and ~2Nm from the upwind threshold. Calculate yourself the climb gradient required to clear the hill top + a 1500' MOCA.

the reason I said I think (a commercial aircraft) could be able to make it is because I have personally witnessed a RAF Canberra do it! And it was quite a sight!
 
N754PR
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RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:15 am

I can't speak for the AZ MD11 and have to say its rather odd but I myself did see a CA 744 in POOR weather depart straight out and over lion rock. The tower kept telling him to turn left, after giving up with that they asked for his height and when they knew he was OVER Lion Rock they just sent him North and into China.

In my 1000's of hours at Kai Tak that was the ONLY time I saw that happen.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
MarshalN
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Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:39 am

RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting N754PR (Reply 18):
I can't speak for the AZ MD11 and have to say its rather odd but I myself did see a CA 744 in POOR weather depart straight out and over lion rock. The tower kept telling him to turn left, after giving up with that they asked for his height and when they knew he was OVER Lion Rock they just sent him North and into China.

Now imagine if he didn't clear it...

That'll be horrible.
 
beechnut
Posts: 549
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 17):
the reason I said I think (a commercial aircraft) could be able to make it is because I have personally witnessed a RAF Canberra do it! And it was quite a sight!

It would never happen on a pax flight. Even if the aircraft could clear the hills, the procedures have to take into account the usual "what if" as in "what if an engine quit before we cleared the hills"?

Hence the turn out to the left. And the weight restrictions even with that.

Beech
 
ConcordeBoy
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Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:43 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 15):
Most airlines, when the winds required a 31 departure, had to cut down on weight considerably, but CX was allowed to do so at MTOW

Never heard this before... what about CX allowed them to have that exemption?

Also, have a source to back it up? Just curious.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
klyk1980
Posts: 145
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RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:43 am

As a resident of Hong Kong for long long time.....I can tell you, thats impossible for the flight to take off and fly over Lion Rocks!!!
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting Klyk1980 (Reply 22):
As a resident of Hong Kong for long long time.....I can tell you, thats impossible for the flight to take off and fly over Lion Rocks!!!

Absolutely, that requires a 15% climb gradient - compared to a standard 3-5% and MTOW ISA on a B772 is ~4%. You have to be mad or empty to do that.

Non-RPTs are exceptions but would still have needed ATC clearance to do that (traffic) and a gurantee that the pilots were aware of the obstacle and the aircraft had the performance to do it.

More "recent" Kaitak charts:
http://www.geocities.com/teedeez/kaitakcharts.html

Quoting N754PR (Reply 18):
when they knew he was OVER Lion Rock they just sent him North and into China.

I doubt they could reach the required hand off altitude into China. I'm sure the chinese would have rejected it and HK vectored it around to gain alt. Imagine the chaos it would have caused.
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CX Flyboy
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RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:59 pm

It has happened. I have spoken to HK ATC about it. The pilots of the Air China had very bad english and despite ATC telling them to turn, they did not understand and continued to climb, straight over the top of the hills. When ATC saw on radar that they were going to clear the hills, they let him continue, but there was a lot of paperwork afterwards.

I know it is hard to believe, but it is indeed true and did happen. Just because procedures say to turn, that does not preclude a crew from ignoring it. There have been many incidents in aviation where you think "No way...how on earth could that happen?!" Well, it happens.
 
je89_w
Crew
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RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:15 pm

Wow, pretty amazing for that CA pilot to pull such a stunt! The misunderstanding in the ATC didn't help either, but good thing they cleared the hills.

Kai Tak is an amazing airport!
 
abba
Posts: 1379
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RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting TR (Reply 3):
have experienced these takeoffs with Cathay, Lufthansa, SAS & Swissair

Wonder how you managed to have a take off towards the mountains with SAS! They were at the time infamous for loading their 767s to the brim and consequently they were not able to takeoff in that direction as the runway were too short (shortened artificially that is). Due to that they always had to take off towards the water which sometimes meant that they were delayed for hours.


Abba
 
N754PR
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 10:03 pm

RE: Kai Tak Takeoffs

Sun Jan 22, 2006 1:03 am

When I saw that CA 744 I must have been dreaming, not to mention the frantic calls from the tower, on my scanner!!...... good dream.

As for SAS, I think I only saw them ONCE use 31 for departure, every other time they just sat and waited for a slot on 13.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.