PanAm747
Topic Author
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Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:47 am

http://www.kfmb.com/stories/story.35912.html

A private jet coming in for a landing at Palomar airport, a small commercial airport in northern San Diego county, came in too fast and skidded off the runway, crashed into a self-storage facility retaining wall, and burst into flames.

The helicopter shot I saw on this morning's news had a green tail visible - I was afraid at first that it was an America West RJ, but apparently that is not the case. Still a very sad incident.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
aerobalance
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:53 am

News reports now saying there were 'multiple fatalities'. Not sure if it was passengers on the plane or people in the building that was hit. Very sad.
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:36 am

One of the local stations said it was a Cessna 560, and based on that, Flightaware shows:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N86CE

Registration:

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=86CE

There is a photo of N86CE in the Anet database, but it's back from 1992 when the number was affixed to a G-II...

Weather:

KCRQ 241453Z AUTO 06006KT 10SM CLR 14/M09 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP133 T01391094 53013 $
KCRQ 241353Z AUTO 08005KT 10SM CLR 10/M08 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP128 T01001078 $

The airport:

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KCRQ

[Edited 2006-01-24 17:51:28]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
BBJII
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:40 am

Not another private A/C !!!!!!


The FAA keep moving the goal post for Private Operators after every incident.

My thought are with the families of those involved.  Sad

I hope the FAA will investigate and then issue policy changes, rather than issue rash changes to policy, before the facts are known.


 wave 
Remember: The Bird Hit You, You Didn't Hit The Bird.....
 
Daleaholic
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:43 am

Flightaware shows that it has arrived, does it automatically put 'Arrived'? Thought they might have some sort of Accident text.
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:22 am

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060124/ap_on_re_us/calif_plane_crash

Further update.

Quote:
I hope the FAA will investigate and then issue policy changes, rather than issue rash changes to policy, before the facts are known.

I certainly hope so, too - general aviation and military aviation are much different cases for NIMBY's, so I don't forsee any changes to policies here.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 5):
I certainly hope so, too - general aviation and military aviation are much different cases for NIMBY's, so I don't forsee any changes to policies here.

The larger problem is convincing developers that building around airports isn't such a good idea.

In the end, the Cities themselves are the ones that approve development projects. Some cities that operate airports are stupid enough to allow incompatible development. In other cases where airports are run by Special Districts, the City overrides the recommendations by the Special District. Maybe a few hundred dead people one of these days will do the trick. It's a sick thought, yes, but it's an unfortunate reality.

The irony that this occured in San Diego County:

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005...ws/californian/22_23_095_20_05.txt

http://archives.californiaaviation.org/ganews/msg11431.html

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005...ws/top_stories/23_19_334_16_05.txt

[Edited 2006-01-24 18:58:39]
 
av8rphx
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Thread starter):
The helicopter shot I saw on this morning's news had a green tail visible - I was afraid at first that it was an America West RJ, but apparently that is not the case. Still a very sad incident.

We dont fly a RJ into CRQ, you may have seen one of our Dash 8s though.
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:32 am

My brother works off El Camino Real (which runs along the east end of Carlsbad) a mile or so north of the airport. With the accident along the west end of the airport, he says he didn't see anything when he turned from westbound Palomar Airport Road onto northbound El Camino Real around 7am:
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?ad...fornia&country=us&new=1&name=&qty=
However he did say that co-workers who were in the area around 6:30am did see the smoke.

RIP those who died.

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
PanAm747
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:47 am

Quote:
We dont fly a RJ into CRQ, you may have seen one of our Dash 8s though.

Thankfully, I didn't see either!! There was a T-tail with a bit of green on it, and that's all that was visible from the overhead helicopter shot.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
av8rphx
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 9):
Thankfully, I didn't see either!! There was a T-tail with a bit of green on it, and that's all that was visible from the overhead helicopter shot.

Yeah that was probably our Dash, we have a 630 departure to PHX from CRQ. One of my friends in SAN called me and told me about it, inquiring if it was our plane, still a very sad situation.
 
aerobalance
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:57 am

A witness is now stating that it came in gear up and a very high rate of speed and descent.

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/6397504/detail.html

Something must have been wrong with that aircraft, with a 4900' runway that would be plenty of time to still slow down to a reasonable speed with out brakes. As it is that plane just smashed through the ILS shack and flew down the slope into the other building. Very sad and very scary - RIP to all souls aboard.
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:29 am

From the linked article...

"when it skidded off the end of the runway" and
"Its landing gear was up "

Good example of the conflicting information that comes out in the first few hours after an accident...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:35 am

According to news the flames were caused by the plane hitting the storage units. The storage units at the end of the runway contained flammable materials or liquids according to the local news. Why would someone with a brain store flammable liquids at the end of any runway? Look what happened.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 13):
Why would someone with a brain store flammable liquids at the end of any runway?

Because they weren't storage units containing flamable materials???

They were localizer support platforms and a localizer.



The storage units were off airport. I think you have potential for a career in news casting.

[Edited 2006-01-24 23:12:10]
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:01 pm

Boeing 7E7 they eventually hit the storage units.
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:14 pm

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 13):
Why would someone with a brain store flammable liquids at the end of any runway? Look what happened.

Well, maybe they expect the air traffic to stay on the airport.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
PSAjet17
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:41 pm

The crew is identified as pilot Jack Francis and co-pilot was Andy Garrett. The plane was registered to Goship Air LLC of Ketchum, Idaho. One of the victims was identified by the Associated Press as Frank H. Jellinek Jr., 59, chairman emeritus of Fisher Scientific International, a Hampton, N.H., company that provides products and services for labs and clinics. The forth victim is the wife of Goship Air owner Ketchum City Councilman Steve Shafran.

After failing to stop on the runway, the Citation 560 plowed through a navigation structure (ILS) and then went down an enbankment where it hit a commercial storage facility located off the airport property.
 
socalfive
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:29 pm

I've flown in and out of Palomar several times. The runway runs dramatically uphill from east to west and literally has no runoff area at the west end, then drops off about 150' down the embankment. In other words there is no margin for error.
 
peachair
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:41 pm

An eerie coincidence, just found this article. There was another fatal incident in 1994 (A Bell 206) with the same registration - N86CE)

http://members.aol.com/spur317e/chalet.htm

Peachair
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 15):
Boeing 7E7 they eventually hit the storage units.

Hence my point above about compatible land use.
 
Av8trxx
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:28 am

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 11):
A witness is now stating that it came in gear up and a very high rate of speed and descent.

Although it is no longer available, the Flight Aware nav log showed that the entire approach was at 190kts or greater. (All but one radar return showed speeds in excess of 200 kts) The last return was 227 kts @ 300 feet.
Pretty darn fast to be on approach to a 4800 ft strip.
 
2H4
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:39 am




Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 24):
Are they designed to crash? Should an airfield be designed for this 'reality'? As a pilot, I never believe in crashing the plane I fly - it sounds as if you do.

Like so many issues discussed in this forum, this is being presented as black-or-white, all-or-nothing issue

Should measures be taken to minimize injuries/fatalities in the event of a short landing or overrun? Absolutely. Planes do crash, and Boeing7E7 makes a great point, pointing out that ignoring that reality is foolish. The second we become reactive...rather than proactive...to flight safety issues, people will die unnecessarily as a result.

At the same time, we cannot realistically expect airfields be built in remote areas and covered with padding. An airport that is absolutely perfect in the technical sense is not necessarily going to work well in the commercial sense, and vice versa.

The reality is, like many aspects of aviation, compromises have to be made. It's not all-or-nothing. In this case, measures absolutely should be taken to increase the safety of the surrounding areas of an airport, but as soon as those measures produce a significantly negative impact on the useability of the airport, they've been taken too far.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 26):
Should measures be taken to minimize injuries/fatalities in the event of a short landing or overrun? Absolutely. Planes do crash, and Boeing7E7 makes a great point, pointing out that ignoring that reality is foolish. The second we become reactive...rather than proactive...to flight safety issues, people will die unnecessarily as a result.

Precisely my point, and as it be the Developers and poor City Management in San Diego County have ignored these realities.

[Edited 2006-01-26 16:44:48]
 
apodino
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:48 am

How long before Schiavo files a lawsuit on behalf of the victims families?
 
aerobalance
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting Av8trxx (Reply 23):
Although it is no longer available, the Flight Aware nav log showed that the entire approach was at 190kts or greater. (All but one radar return showed speeds in excess of 200 kts) The last return was 227 kts @ 300 feet.
Pretty darn fast to be on approach to a 4800 ft strip.

AS CRQ is a favorite destination of mine, I'm intrigued as to what happened here, was it something that the pilot could have overcame, did he have to put this plane down at that moment? Did he have control? I'll be paying close attention to this investigation.
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
skyharborshome
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:33 am

Except for Mesa, do any other commercials fly into CRQ?
Fly CHD!
 
PanAm747
Topic Author
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:48 am

According to the a.net computer system, the code for Carlsbad, CA, is CLD.

United Express flies into Carlsbad (to LAX), and America West flies to PHX. I believe at one time American Eagle did, but they have drastically scaled back California service. According to their computers, there is only one daily flight to PHX, and six dailies to LAX.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:55 am

 
aerobalance
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 28):
Time to cut back on some of the speculation:

From the article:

"thrust reversers, used to slow the aircraft, were stowed". OK, why was this?
"landing gear was down" alright - so why did this plane careen off the end of the runway?

No speculation - just questions that need to be answered.

[Edited 2006-01-27 02:13:56]
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
2H4
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:19 am




Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 28):
Time to cut back on some of the speculation:

What makes you say that? The NTSB investigator has only stated that there was a discrepancy in the aircraft's speed data, and the website quotes from flightaware. Aside from the basic fact that it's a website, and thus, an unreliable data source in any sense of accident investigation, it's updated only about once a minute. Even if the website were perfectly accurate, such information is worthless.

I can't see how the article answers any questions, except for the thrust reverser comment:

---------------------------------------------------

Kurt Anderson, an investigator for the National Transportation Safety Board, also said there are conflicting reports about the jet's speed when it approached the Carlsbad airport Tuesday morning.

Anderson said he knew about the Internet data from "FlightAware" that shows minute-by-minute ground speed data about such general aviation flights.

The Web site said the 1994 Cessna Citation V twin-engine jet was traveling at 227 nautical mph (261 mph) when it touched down at the Carlsbad airport shortly before 6:40 a.m.

Anderson confirmed that the recommended landing speed for such a jet is between 105 and 115 knots (121 mph to 132 mph).

"There is some discrepancy between that (the FlightAware data) and other data that we have," he said.

Investigators did determine that the jet's landing gear was down after the crash, and that its "thrust reversers," used to slow the jet, were stowed.

---------------------------------------------------





2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Nea

Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:20 am

I notice this latest article mentions it went through "barricades" at the end. Previous media reports and a photo here indicate it was the ILS stuff at the end. Did some media guy assume orange-and-white ILS debris = a "barricade"?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
2H4
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:36 am




Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 31):
Did some media guy assume orange-and-white ILS debris = a "barricade"?

Don't be ridiculous, OPNL. Surely, the media would never base their reporting on uneducated assumptions. After all, these are professionals we're talking about.

 sarcastic 




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:40 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 32):
Don't be ridiculous, OPNL. Surely, the media would never base their reporting on uneducated assumptions. After all, these are professionals we're talking about.

Good thing the debris wasn't RED-and-white; they could have come to the conclusion that the jet hit a barber shop on the way in...  Yeah sure
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
jumppilot
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RE: Private Jet Crashes Off Runway In Carlsbad Near SD

Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:39 pm

I agree 2h4. Although Flightaware is very useful. It's not entirely accurate. I've compared many of my own flights to flightaware and it's been way off. Groundspeeds and final altitudes weren't even close. The only thing that is consistantly correct is our filed route.

Thoughts and prayers to the victims and their families. Very unfortunate.
pull back to go up, pull way back to go down!

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