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PanAm_DC10
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Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:24 pm

Maurice Flanagan, Emirates' group managing director has given an interview in which he discusses many aspects of EKs fleet. He spoke of a decision on the A350 / B787 by May, which I posted details of in this thread by Wings in which he pushes for the 787-10.

Now with the following fair use excerpt he confirms an interest in the A346E should Airbus go ahead with the model.

By James Cordahi and Andrea Rothman
Flanagan said he expected to choose between Boeing and Airbus long-range mid-size models by April or May.
in reference to A350/B787

Emirates is also ``in talks'' with Airbus about purchasing an extended range version of its A340-600, which would be known as the A340-600E, Flanagan said. If Airbus chooses to develop the A340-600E, Emirates would be interested in buying as many as 20, he said. Such a plane would have longer range than Boeing's 777-300ER, which can fly about 8,500 nautical miles, he said.

``We never comment on ongoing campaigns,'' Airbus spokeswoman Ann Crozals said when asked about the project.

Source: http://www.bloomberg.com

If they are in talks with Airbus for an A340-600E, doesn't that contradict the recent comments by Mr Leahy reported by FI and discussed in this thread by Leelaw recently?

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
If they are in talks with Airbus for an A340-600E, doesn't that contradict the recent comments by Mr Leahy reported by FI and discussed in this thread by Leelaw recently?

Only if those discussions don't include any type of 340/777 fuel burn guarantees.

cheers
 
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:30 pm

Why would they need A340-600s when they already have the superior 777-300ER in their fleet?
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:32 pm

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 1):
Only if those discussions don't include any type of 340/777 fuel burn guarantees.

Not exactly. The cash back offer was discussed because Airbus did not want to develop the A346E.

So, they either develop it, or offer a cashback. There in lies the contradiction, unless Airbus is willing to do both  Wink
 
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:34 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 2):
Why would they need A340-600s when they already have the superior 777-300ER in their fleet?



Quoting (Thread starter):
Such a plane would have longer range than Boeing's 777-300ER, which can fly about 8,500 nautical miles, he said.


[Edited 2006-01-25 13:34:32]
 
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:34 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 2):
Why would they need A340-600s when they already have the superior 777-300ER in their fleet?

These would be the A340-600Es, not A340-600HGWs
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:34 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
If they are in talks with Airbus for an A340-600E, doesn't that contradict the recent comments by Mr Leahy reported by FI and discussed in this thread by Leelaw recently?

Your point is well taken. However, it could be that the talks with EK about a possible A346E began before Airbus began reconsidered its strategy with regard to the A345/346 program as reported by FI earlier this week. Who knows at this stage whether Mr. Leahy was floating a trial balloon or making a concrete proposal.

[Edited 2006-01-25 13:43:46]
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WINGS
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:39 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):

If they are in talks with Airbus for an A340-600E, doesn't that contradict the recent comments by Mr Leahy reported by FI and discussed in this thread by Leelaw recently?

Interesting news PanAm. I don't even know what to say. Looks like Airbus may be withholding some information after all. I think that Airbus are studding all their options before they commit to anything further.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 2):
Why would they need A340-600s when they already have the superior 777-300ER in their fleet?

The A340-600E would offer additional range + better economics.

Regards,
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:39 pm

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 1):
Only if those discussions don't include any type of 340/777 fuel burn guarantees

Thanks Shenzhen but it was more in reference as to whether Airbus would go ahead with the investment required to develop an A340-500 & A340-600 "Enhanced" model. This is a customer stating that they seem to be actively marketing a model to which they have not yet commited too and which Mr Leahy, to me, implied they had no intention of doing so.  Confused

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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:43 pm

My apologies, I should learn to read  Wink
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:45 pm

Quoting Tifoso (Reply 3):

Not exactly. The cash back offer was discussed because Airbus did not want to develop the A346E.

I took his comments to be a whole new replacement for the A340 (eg a 777 stype supertwin), not a new version of the same aircraft.
 
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:51 pm

Does anybody have the list of number of the airplanes and their types they already have in their fleet?Thanks in advance.
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Tifoso
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:51 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):
I took his comments to be a whole new replacement for the A340 (eg a 777 stype supertwin), not a new version of the same aircraft.

I don't think so.

Quoting Leahy:
“Is it a good investment [for Airbus] to spend a couple of billion dollars to get a better aircraft when you can solve the fuel burn problem with money?” asks Leahy.

Building a new aircraft for just 2 billion dollars is impossible. The 748 program is going to cost 4 billion dollars.

Leahy was most definitely referring to the A346E.
 
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:58 pm

Wouldn't suprise me if they order them, They really need more long-haul planes....  Yeah sure
 
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:58 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
f they are in talks with Airbus for an A340-600E, doesn't that contradict the recent comments by Mr Leahy reported by FI and discussed in this thread by Leelaw recently?

Maybe a little, but I can see Airbus top PR-man spinning a few things, just to keep some surprises in their sleeves for the coming year.

We had an extensive thread on A.net a while ago on an A340 a la the A350, which was based on an article in FI http://www.flightinternational.com/A...Enhanced+A340+to+take+on+777+.html

I think Airbus is just probing around to see if their A340-600E is sparking any interest from potential airlines. When there is sufficient interest from airlines, Airbus will give the -600E the go ahead later this year. However, to make sure other airlines buy the current version, they realize they need to compensate the airlines.
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):
took his comments to be a whole new replacement for the A340 (eg a 777 stype supertwin), not a new version of the same aircraft.

"Is it a good investment [for Airbus] to spend a couple of billion dollars to get a better aircraft, when you can solve the fuel burn problem with money?" asks Leahy...."I can agree a figure with a customer that reflects a fuel burn delta and run that out over 12 years and pay it to them."

Does Airbus develop "a replacement supertwin" for a couple of billion dollars?
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:03 pm

Quoting Tifoso (Reply 13):
Building a new aircraft for just 2 billion dollars is impossible. The 748 program is going to cost 4 billion dollars.

Well, there are little development costs for the A340-600E. They can use the same type of aluminum lithium for the fuselage as they use in the A350. New engines, a new A350-like cabin and slight modifications on the wings and you're set to go.



Leahy was offering cash-back for customers in order to sell the current version of the A340-600, not the -600E.

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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:08 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 16):
I think Airbus is just probing around to see if their A340-600E is sparking any interest from potential airlines. When there is sufficient interest from airlines, Airbus will give the -600E the go ahead later this year. However, to make sure other airlines buy the current version, they realize they need to compensate the airlines.

Doesn't seem Leahy's comments were limited only to current versions of the A340, but any further development of the 340 as well.
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:09 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 18):
Leahy was offering cash-back for customers in order to sell the current version of the A340-600, not the -600E.

From Leahy's quote it is clear that Airbus are debating whether to spend money on building an enhanced A346 , or on offering a cashback.

Wouldn't doing both become a little too expensive for them?

[Edited 2006-01-25 14:10:04]
 
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:12 pm

In talks doesn't mean anything. Pan Am were in talks with Vickers for the VC10 back in the day and we all know where that went!

It would be mad if there were no talks happening on this matter really.

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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:12 pm

Will Emirates soon decide they have enough planes on order? That is one airline greedy for aircraft, lets hope they can fill all this huge capacity.
 
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:14 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 19):
Doesn't seem Leahy's comments were limited only to current versions of the A340, but any further development of the 340 as well.

My interpretation agrees with Tifosi.

Spend $1-2b on an updated A340 or cover fuel difference costs for the current A345/6.
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:28 pm

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 1):
Only if those discussions don't include any type of 340/777 fuel burn guarantees.



Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 1):
Why would they need A340-600s when they already have the superior 777-300ER in their fleet?



Quoting Tifoso (Reply 3):
So, they either develop it, or offer a cashback. There in lies the contradiction, unless Airbus is willing to do both



Quoting Leelaw (Reply 6):
However, it could be that the talks with EK about a possible A346E began before Airbus began reconsidered its strategy with regard to the A345/346 program as reported by FI earlier this week.



Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 21):
In talks doesn't mean anything. Pan Am were in talks with Vickers for the VC10 back in the day and we all know where that went!

In all the 777 beats A340 festivities we haven't forgot they already ordered 18 A340-600's have we?  Wink


Great combination inbetween the 330/350 and A380 fleets IMO.
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:30 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 23):
Quoting Leelaw (Reply 19):
Doesn't seem Leahy's comments were limited only to current versions of the A340, but any further development of the 340 as well.

My interpretation agrees with Tifosi.

Spend $1-2b on an updated A340 or cover fuel difference costs for the current A345/6.

I agree, sorry if I was unclear. It's clearly an either or proposition, there won't be an A340E if Airbus initiates a "cash-back" sales scheme.
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:30 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 2):
Why would they need A340-600s when they already have the superior 777-300ER in their fleet?

What a stupid statement - clearly it's not superior or EK wouldn't be considering its competitor.
 
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:32 pm

Quoting Tifoso (Reply 20):
From Leahy's quote it is clear that Airbus are debating whether to spend money on building an enhanced A346 , or on offering a cashback.

It is possible that Airbus are testing the water to see what responses they get to a) the A345/6E, and b) the cashback option on A345/6HGW's.

Obviously if there is insufficient realistic prospects, airbus won't go forward with the A345/6E.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):
I took his comments to be a whole new replacement for the A340 (eg a 777 stype supertwin), not a new version of the same aircraft.

No, $2Bn is a figure to cover the A345/6E. A new "supertwin" would likely cost the thick end of $10Bn to develop.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
Such a plane would have longer range than Boeing's 777-300ER, which can fly about 8,500 nautical miles, he said.

The newly flown A346HGW is near identical in terms of range to the 773ER.
Because the A346HGW is much heavier and has much less efficient engines than the 773ER, it has by definition more scope for improvement.
Irrespective of the economics, one of the key advantages an A346E would have over the 773ER is a considerably greater range (possibly even greater than today's A345). This would actually differentiate it from the 773ER.
EK seem to have spotted this.

I've no doubt the 773ER can be, and will be, improved, but by definition, being such a quality product to start with, the scope for improvement has to be more limited than for the A346.
 
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:04 pm

To me it seems like Airbus is still making up their mind. Of course Airbus wants to offer the better A340-600E, but they need to make a reasonable business case for the upgrade. Since they probably haven't mad up their mind yet, I think it is positive that Leahy ask for people and airlines opinion in public. The A340-600E would make sense, since it the A340 already is assembled on the same line as the A350. So the cost of the development will be minimal. A Trent 1700 and Genx engine instead of the Trent 500 would make the Enhanced verrsion a better performer. I would believe a new nose and perhaps the same cruise speed as the A350. Then the new A340 will match the Tripple 7 in cruising speed.
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:32 pm

It's good that Airbus is trying to come up with a product that can answer to the 773ER, I hope they can make it fast enough (and meet the expected performance). How long did Airbus take to go from A346 to A346HGW? A346HGW took it's first flight recently and is still undergoing some tests, when will EK receive their first HGW?

If we use the same time analogy for the HGW and use it on the Enhanced, when can we expect to see A346E take to the skies? And would Boeing have launched (or start developing) B773ER/B747-8 replacement by then?
 
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:42 pm

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 29):
when can we expect to see A346E take to the skies?

About 2012 EIS, or 2011 "take to the skies", according to Airbus.
 
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 30):
About 2012 EIS, or 2011 "take to the skies", according to Airbus

Since the current A340 backlog is about three years worth of production, what provides the bridge for 2009-2011 given the low A340 order rate?
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 27):
It is possible that Airbus are testing the water to see what responses they get to a) the A345/6E, and b) the cashback option on A345/6HGW's.

I think this is a very realistic assessment. Airbus is trying to position itself according to market response. The cash payback option is a relatively low impact option, given that resources are stretched between the A380, A350, A400M and potentially an A320 successor in addition to it's already established programs. Unless there is a significant interest in the market for an A346E, Airbus may not see it either prudent or necessary to embark on a new development of this nature.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 31):
Since the current A340 backlog is about three years worth of production, what provides the bridge for 2009-2011 given the low A340 order rate?

My understanding is that all the 222in diameter fuselage variants come off the same assembly line(s) so I would expect the current A350 orders should fill the lines and act as the bridge. I could be wrong about this so anyone with better information, please feel free to correct me.

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Glareskin
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting N60659 (Reply 30):
Unless there is a significant interest in the market for an A346E, Airbus may not see it either prudent or necessary to embark on a new development of this nature.

Or they will push the limits for the A350 further towards 773 size. Makes more sense IMO.
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting N60659 (Reply 30):

My understanding is that all the 222in diameter fuselage variants come off the same assembly line(s) so I would expect the current A350 orders should fill the lines and act as the bridge. I could be wrong about this so anyone with better information, please feel free to correct me.

Actually no. They will be coming from the three following lines,

A300/A310
A330-200/300 A340-300/500/600
A350-800/900 ( Airbus is planning on building a new construction line for the A350)


From Airbus.com
New buildings are being planned, including a dedicated final assembly line alongside the current long-range FAL in Toulouse,

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a350/programme_update.html

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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 27):
Because the A346HGW is much heavier and has much less efficient engines than the 773ER, it has by definition more scope for improvement.

It also requires more cruise thrust than can be expected based on weight, so it has poorer aerodynamics. Which leaves more room for improvement if you are an optimist, or means making the A340E more economical is a more expensive proposition.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 8):
The A340-600E would offer additional range + better economics.

It probably won't have better fuel consumption, as the fuel consumption advantage for the 773ER is about 10% and we are talking about a less than 10% gain in range, unless they are talking about flying further with a lower amount of fuel than the A340HGW. Comparable seating class mixes on the two aircraft means the A346 carries fewer passengers with more fuel.
Finally, the purchase price of another derivative is going to need the development costs tacked on to.

Plus 6 years leaves a lot of time for Boeing and GE to respond. If they can get engine fuel consumption down to GEnx levels and if Boeing offers a belly tank option in exchange for reducing payload and passenger levels down to A340 levels for ULH missions, and combine this with minor weight improvements here and there, they can probably meet or beat the A340E range.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 18):
Well, there are little development costs for the A340-600E. They can use the same type of aluminum lithium for the fuselage as they use in the A350. New engines, a new A350-like cabin and slight modifications on the wings and you're set to go.

It's not clear how easy it will be to mate the A350 modifications to the A340. A lot of parts are being modified. Also the A340E engines would be new and will require development expenditures, so RR (or GE) has to be convinced of the market for the aircraft and that it won't detract from their other activities (and won't be undercut by 773ER improvements by Boeing and GE).

[Edited 2006-01-25 17:35:52]
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 29):
Since the current A340 backlog is about three years worth of production, what provides the bridge for 2009-2011 given the low A340 order rate?

Good question - I think Airbus will be eager to keep that line busy with further long haul orders. Note that the A330 and the A340 use the same assembly line.

I don't know if the A350 will use the same line aswell, logically there is no reason it cannot use it, apart from the fuselage specific assembly areas.

The A340-600E would be the third variant of the aircraft in a very few years, I think if Airbus decide to produce it, it has to be a winner or they'll be in big trouble.
 
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting N60659 (Reply 30):
My understanding is that all the 222in diameter fuselage variants come off the same assembly line(s) so I would expect the current A350 orders should fill the lines and act as the bridge. I could be wrong about this so anyone with better information, please feel free to correct me.

Even if this was the case (see Reply 32) it still wouldn't address the A345/6 supply chain issues. Few suppliers appreciate a two gap in production.
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WINGS
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:09 am

Quoting JPair (Reply 34):
I don't know if the A350 will use the same line aswell, logically there is no reason it cannot use it, apart from the fuselage specific assembly areas.

From Airbus.com
New buildings are being planned, including a dedicated final assembly line alongside the current long-range FAL in Toulouse,


http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a350/programme_update.html

Quoting JPair (Reply 34):
The A340-600E would be the third variant of the aircraft in a very few years, I think if Airbus decide to produce it, it has to be a winner or they'll be in big trouble.

A340-600 Entered service in 2002
A340-600HGW Mid 2006
A340-600E 2011-2012?

If we look at it this way its actually not that bad.

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Wings
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killjoy
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:20 am

We shouldn't forget that Leahy said that they might be convinced to upgrade the A340 if the B777 were to gain a significant range advantage. The same reasoning could also apply in the other direction, if an airline manages to convince Airbus they'd buy the A340 if it could beat the B777 range by enough.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 31):
Or they will push the limits for the A350 further towards 773 size. Makes more sense IMO.

I don't think that would work that well. Any engine a heavier A350 could use would also be available to the B787, so Airbus is better off if such a jet ends up requiring four engines, as it's easier for them to do so.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 33):
It's not clear how easy it will be to mate the A350 modifications to the A340. A lot of parts are being modified.

What if they just stretch the A350 and then stick the newest A340 wing on it? I know I make it sound stupidly simple, but that could still be easier than using the A340 as a starting point.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 33):
It probably won't have better fuel consumption, as the fuel consumption advantage for the 773ER is about 10% and we are talking about a less than 10% gain in range, unless they are talking about flying further with a lower amount of fuel than the A340HGW.

Perhaps they are. The earlier article said an engine upgrade alone would save them about 6%, and the A350 is 8t lighter than a comparable A330 would be. That's not insignificant.

But as you said, Boeing could also upgrade the 777. I'm not sure that would be as easy as utilizing A350 tech for the A340, though.

[Edited 2006-01-25 18:27:05]
 
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 37):
But as you said, Boeing could also upgrade the 777. I'm not sure that would be as easy as utilizing A350 tech for the A340, though.

All of what I was suggesting were minor changes except for the engine upgrade. Boeing is starting off with a significant advantage in a number of areas, some of which (like the significantly lower drag) will would likely be hard for Airbus to compensate for without more expensive changes.

Much has been made of the weight and engine efficiency differences, but no one is addressing the much higher cruise thrust requirements despite lower cruise speed and a narrower fuselage.

http://theaviationspecialist.com/350-550_mission_table.gif

For that mission profile in widebodyphotog's analysis, the original A346 requires 42800 lbs of thrust for cruise while the 773ER needs 38000 lbs, a 12.6% greater requirement. Weight differences at takeoff and landing are 3.8% and 2.5% respectively. Fuel consumption rate is 7.2% greater on a per pound of thrust basis, but given the higher cruise thrust requirements, actual cruise fuel consumption is significantly higher. I think takeoff and landing fuel consumption is much greater for the 777, otherwise it would be hard to explain the smaller total fuel consumption advantage for the 6000nm mission. It would be interesting to see data for a longer mission profile.
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N60659
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 32):
Actually no. They will be coming from the three following lines,

Thanks for setting me straight on that.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 35):
Even if this was the case (see Reply 32) it still wouldn't address the A345/6 supply chain issues. Few suppliers appreciate a two gap in production.

I don't disagree. However if that is the nature of the business, the suppliers can do very little about it. And that could be part of the reason for the cash payback option Leahy talked about.

I think the bigger issue (as Atmx2000 pointed out), is that it is entirely possible that Boeing and GE could counter with a more efficient 773ER. Airbus' challenge would be to produce an aircraft that would be equal to or more efficient than a projected enhanced version of the 773ER. If that option is not economically feasible, it would be not make sense to embark on a potentially expensive upgrade to an existing airframe with little scope of recouping the cost of development. I doubt that a 20 airframe prospect from EK is enough to justify the time and effort required for the enhancement.

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atmx2000
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting N60659 (Reply 39):
I doubt that a 20 airframe prospect from EK is enough to justify the time and effort required for the enhancement.

Of course maybe EK is trying to make Boeing+GE increase the capability of the 773ER.

Boeing might be better off letting Airbus sink another billion or two into the A346 before committing to an upgrade.
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killjoy
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:48 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 38):
All of what I was suggesting were minor changes except for the engine upgrade. Boeing is starting off with a significant advantage in a number of areas, some of which (like the significantly lower drag) will would likely be hard for Airbus to compensate for without more expensive changes.

Yes, but Airbus has already upgraded the aerodynamics of the A350, and the basic shape is the same. I agree Boeing has a large advantage, but personally I'm not sure how much they can improve the 777 anymore without a large additional investment.

It may turn out you're correct, but I for one hope Airbus doesn't agree and does go ahead with the project. For purely selfish reasons, of course - it would be a nice airplane for Finnair  Wink .
 
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 41):
Yes, but Airbus has already upgraded the aerodynamics of the A350, and the basic shape is the same. I agree Boeing has a large advantage, but personally I'm not sure how much they can improve the 777 anymore without a large additional investment.

The A350 is getting a new CFRP wing which is no doubt aimed at improving aerodynamics of the platform. The A346E that is being talked about would be stuck with the wing of A346, perhaps tweaked some. And the A346's 4 engines are likely part of the reason for the increased drag.
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 41):
It may turn out you're correct, but I for one hope Airbus doesn't agree and does go ahead with the project. For purely selfish reasons, of course - it would be a nice airplane for Finnair

Does Finnair need such a large plane?
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krisyyz
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:58 am

Wow, Im sorry but I don't understand why Airbus keeps putting band-aids on the A340 series. The A343X is great aircraft so is the A346/345, but you cannot put a large twin against a large quad airplane. The problem with the A340 is that it has 4 engines, like Robert Milton of AC said when AC ordered B777s.

Airbus give it up.... A346 is fantastic plane, but will never compare to the B773ER/2LR, like apples and oranges!


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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 42):
The A350 is getting a new CFRP wing which is no doubt aimed at improving aerodynamics of the platform. The A346E that is being talked about would be stuck with the wing of A346, perhaps tweaked some. And the A346's 4 engines are likely part of the reason for the increased drag.

This is true, of course. The end result would depend greatly on how successful those tweaks are, but I'm sure we can assume at least some would exist.
 
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 43):
Does Finnair need such a large plane?

Not right now, but I'm guessing they will. I saw a comment somewhere that indicated they could need a total of 18 widebodies within 10-15 years. At that point the busiest destinations would surely benefit from a larger aircraft.

Which is a slight problem, imho. The A345/6 would probably beat the 777 because of commonality issues, but I'd rather see them buy an aircraft that's also efficient (A345/6 E).

Besides, the A345 isn't actually that much larger than an A359, but it can lift more cargo, which they value. I'm also insane and dream of a direct flight to Fiji from Europe. Look at the great circle route; it could be quite lucrative from HEL.
 
gigneil
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:10 am

There is no doubt that an A340-600E could surpass the performance of the 777-300ER while getting close in fuel burn.

What is unclear is what can Boeing do in the interim?

The answer is, probably not much. Such a big engine as the GE90-115B can't really benefit too much from the fuel consumption gains of the GEnx: it already burns too hot. It also can't be run up too terribly much higher without a big upgrade. 125k pounds is about the limit for this particular core.

Boeing may be able to add some tankage and lose some payload... but the plane is already close to its undercarriage limit.

An A340-600E will be superior. The question is, if its enough and if Boeing can better it.

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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 40):
Of course maybe EK is trying to make Boeing+GE increase the capability of the 773ER.

Possible, but up to this point, EK has never placed much emphasis on fuel efficiency. But with skyrocketing fuel prices, maybe they are beginning to see the pinch. I frankly expected to see EK cancel their A346HGW order following their recent 773ER order, but apparently that isn't case. With EK, you never know.

Quote:
Boeing might be better off letting Airbus sink another billion or two into the A346 before committing to an upgrade.

Judging by the way EK has pressured Boeing into thinking about launching the 787-10, it is clear that both manufacturers are being significantly influenced by this airline. There are a select few players that have influenced aircraft design in the recent past (primarily SQ and QF come to mind). Clearly, EK has ascended into this elite tier. It will be interesting to see how Airbus and Boeing react to this challenge.

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atmx2000
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RE: Emirates "In Talks" For 20 A340-600E

Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting N60659 (Reply 48):
Judging by the way EK has pressured Boeing into thinking about launching the 787-10, it is clear that both manufacturers are being significantly influenced by this airline. There are a select few players that have influenced aircraft design in the recent past (primarily SQ and QF come to mind). Clearly, EK has ascended into this elite tier. It will be interesting to see how Airbus and Boeing react to this challenge.

It's not the EK order alone I would imagine but the market potential for the 787-10. EK just gives a good launch order to start the program.

On the other hand upgrading the 773ER may involve investing a large chunk of change for a marginal number of orders. It would really depend on how fast Boeing can get it out and how big of a market there is for that aircraft. The later it comes out, the more likely its marketable life will be cut short by either an even larger stretch of the Y2 or the Y3. With GE already committed to the 748, they might not be interested in committing to further upgrades of the GE90 engine. They were grumbling a bit about the 748, and how it might take away from the 773ER and I believe A388 GP2700.
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