hardiwv
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Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:20 pm

RG decided today to extend its additional (daylight) four weekly flights GRU-JKF until 28 October 2006, therefore, operating 11 weekly flights on this route, all with the B777. RG uses its best equipment on this route (GRU-FRA and GIG-FRA also receive RG's B777).

The 4 weekly additional GRU-JFK flights started 15 December/05 and so far reported loads of 80%, while the daily (red-eye) flight had average loads of 90%. With 11 weekly flights JFK-GRU, RG offers 5,676 weekly seats on this route.

RG also stated that the airline could further increase flights JFK-GRU to two daily flights from October/06.

It seems the JFK-GRU market is getting very competitive, with AA (B777), JAL (B747), TAM (A330) also operating this route; and DL (B763) starting this route in June/06, apart from CO (B762) EWR-GRU. Amazing enough there are no JFK-GIG nonstop flight!

Rgs,
 
TP727
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RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:45 pm

Hello Hardi,

Do you know if RG has reconfigured their VRC/VRD? Those birds had (or still have) huge F and J classes. I may be wrong but when i flew back from LIS on VRD there were about 70 J class seats, and many pax flying in J and F were upgraded (F class had some 20 seats).
I don´t think that any of RG routes demand such configuration.

TP727
 
teixeim
Posts: 128
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RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:18 pm

I too am surprised there are no flights JFK-GIG. In my opinion, Rio's airport is much more interesting, offers better scenery, shopping, etc. Only one issue remains in Rio - possible lack of connecting flights to other cities - it seems the bulk of domestic connection flights are via São Paulo and not Rio.

Once upon a time (pre-1994) most international flights to Brazil were to Rio - I'm not sure why that changed. For many years before that time, São Paulo was already a larger city than Rio - so why the 'sudden' change? Any experts care to comment?

At any rate, I hope Varig's decision on these flights works to their advantage - they deserve a break!

Regards,
MitchellT
 
AF022
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RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:10 am

Yields are garbage to GIG. To be profitable airlines have to give the capacity to GRU. The only way to possibly make it work is with one aircraft GIG-JFK (daylight) return at night.
 
Brasuca
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RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:29 am

Thanks for the news, Hardi

But no word about GIG-USA flights, already promised by VARIG?

I deeply believe that these new freq. might be deployed to Rio.
American carriers should take advantadge on TAM or VARIG, as the latter can still get lots of frequencies to the US and code-share their flights.
Only that DL-CO would hate it... But not a big deal...
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
hardiwv
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Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting AF022 (Reply 3):
Yields are garbage to GIG. To be profitable airlines have to give the capacity to GRU. The only way to possibly make it work is with one aircraft GIG-JFK (daylight) return at night

Ask AF or TAP about their yields to GIG...

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
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RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:51 am

Quoting TP727 (Reply 1):
Do you know if RG has reconfigured their VRC/VRD? Those birds had (or still have) huge F and J classes

This process will begin soonest and will take up to 8 months to standardization of 777 fleet. VRC and VRD will be similar to VRA/VRB.
Also, you're right VRC/VRD keep using 22F/70C/148Y

Quoting AF022 (Reply 3):
Yields are garbage to GIG. To be profitable airlines have to give the capacity to GRU. The only way to possibly make it work is with one aircraft GIG-JFK (daylight) return at night.

You say garbage about yields in an airport with two years of huge increase in their number of pax, from 4.5 M in 2003, 6.0 M in 2004 to 8.65 M in 2005 ? Sorry to disagree but as Hardi says, ALL international services from GIG are doing very well, some are better than the same in the high-yield GRU (which keep with all brazilian connections).
So i believe DL, AA, AF, TP, IB, DT, AR and also RG love the garbage! If you are correct Rio would be only a tag-on market to GRU, and all airlines are using Full Y aircrafts to GIG....


Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 5):
Ask AF or TAP about their yields to GIG...

And TAM just announce a EZE-GIG non stop service... TP is looking for a OPO-GIG, DL surprised by huge C demand.... AR with a lot of extra flights... LA with extra flights... i need a garbage like that !

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 4):
But no word about GIG-USA flights, already promised by VARIG?

Not yet. Only RG CEO comments on New York about some weeks ago.

I believe all running GRU-JFK/EWR will face the size of the hard competition. RG and JJ will offer only domestic connections in Brazil while DL and CO only offer connections in the US. American is IMO, the best in this route as they keep a code-share in Brazil with Tam (while TAM does not offer AA connections from New York, only MIA/DFW) and connections to/from JFK.

The first one to run GIG-JFK will be the king in the air, with better loads and yields than the others in GRU, that's my opinion, same as GIG/GRU-CDG flights where AF is the king of profits.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
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RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 6):
And TAM just announce a EZE-GIG non stop service...

Great news. Currently only RG and AR operate daily nonstop flights and demand is huge, especially during high season.

Quoting AF022 (Reply 3):
Yields are garbage to GIG.

Please dont write what you dont know anything about.

To classify GIG as "garbage" (and airport which operates nonstop flights to MIA, ATL, CDG, FRA, LIS, MAD, SCL, EZE, etc, etc)...and as Felipe mentioned, which showed strong growth rates (handling about 9 million pax in 2005, increase of more than 20% compared to 2004)...you certainly dont know anything about aviation or you are careless with what you write.

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
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RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:47 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 7):
Great news. Currently only RG and AR operate daily nonstop flights and demand is huge, especially during high season.

Right Hardiwv, also AR is runing GIG-EZE during weekend with B744, A342 and A310 due to the higher demand. Extra flights with MD83 are also in effect on sundays.
TAM probably is looking for the "empty space" and the lack of capacity of RG to improve the flights, as well as, will improve their aircrafts use.

I just posted a new topic on this issue (GIG-EZE).

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MAH4546
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RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:07 am

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 4):

But no word about GIG-USA flights, already promised by VARIG?

Look for a daylight MIA-GIG service, operated with a 777, in the spring, hopefully.
a.
 
HALFA
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RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:29 am

Quoting AF022 (Reply 3):
Yields are garbage to GIG. To be profitable airlines have to give the capacity to GRU

As one who monitors airfares from LAX to GIG, I can tell you that for the last 2 years, fares have averaged about $1000.00US round trip, and the flights are almost ALWAYS full. I just paid $310.00 round trip from LAX to MAD which is about the same distance. You do the math.
I would hardly call yields to GIG "garbage".

Aloha,
HALFA
HA J Class Lie flats, coming soon to a plane near you........
 
MAH4546
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RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:32 am

Quoting HALFA (Reply 10):
As one who monitors airfares from LAX to GIG, I can tell you that for the last 2 years, fares have averaged about $1000.00US round trip, and the flights are almost ALWAYS full. I

Considering there are no non-stop flights between Los Angeles and Rio de Janeiro, how can they be full?
a.
 
HALFA
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RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:40 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Considering there are no non-stop flights between Los Angeles and Rio de Janeiro, how can they be full?

I didn't say anything about nonstop flights from LAX to GIG.
To clarify, RG's flight from LAX to Brazil is routed LAX-GRU-GIG. It is almost always full, as is every flight I have taken in the last three years operating from any city in the US nonstop to GIG. (MIA, ATL)
My comments about yields were regarding the high fares to Rio from the US. The fares have been high for 2+ years, flights are full and yields are high. Would you like to dispute that too?

HALFA
HA J Class Lie flats, coming soon to a plane near you........
 
MAH4546
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RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:28 pm

Quoting HALFA (Reply 12):

I didn't say anything about nonstop flights from LAX to GIG.

You said flights between LAX and GIG are always full. They can't be...it doesn't exist. And most Varig passengers most likely are getting off in GRU.

Quoting HALFA (Reply 12):
My comments about yields were regarding the high fares to Rio from the US. The fares have been high for 2+ years, flights are full and yields are high. Would you like to dispute that too?

Did I? No, I didn't, because in limited compieition markets like Rio de Janeiro, fares will be artificially high.
a.
 
nethkt
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Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2001 10:27 am

RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:26 pm

Hope I am not saying something off topic,

just wondering which 777 RG uses on JFK-GRU? I mean both day flight and the reded-eye one! I am flying on 20th FEB 06 JFK-GRU C class, so I can, at least, imagine and see some photos of the seat before I fly it real!  Smile

I know that VRA-VRB are the ones flying to FRA. (Anyone cfrm?)

Brgds,
NET
Let's just blame it on yields.
 
HALFA
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2004 8:24 am

RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:19 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
in limited compieition markets like Rio de Janeiro, fares will be artificially high.

What??? So what if they are "artificially" high? They are high nevertheless, and they have been consistently high for over two years. Limited competition + consistently high fares = good yields, not garbage yields.
This isn't rocket science.
HA J Class Lie flats, coming soon to a plane near you........
 
HALFA
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2004 8:24 am

RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:14 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
You said flights between LAX and GIG are always full. They can't be...it doesn't exist.

Yes, it does exist. In fact, I'm booked on this flight in March. RG #8837. LAX-GIG with a stop in GRU.
Check your sources.

HALFA
HA J Class Lie flats, coming soon to a plane near you........
 
MAH4546
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RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:33 pm

Quoting HALFA (Reply 16):
Yes, it does exist. In fact, I'm booked on this flight in March. RG #8837. LAX-GIG with a stop in GRU.
Check your sources.

Correct, with a stop in GRU. Which means passengers get on and off in GRU. In fact, I'd bet 80%+ get off in GRU to either stay in GRU or connect somewhere else.

Quoting HALFA (Reply 15):

What??? So what if they are "artificially" high? They are high nevertheless, and they have been consistently high for over two years. Limited competition + consistently high fares = good yields, not garbage yields.
This isn't rocket science.

Please point out where I said that GIG yields aren't high. I never did. However, if GIG were to get much more capacity, those yields would likely fall. They are artificially high because, due to the high tourist nature of Rio flights, airlines restrict their capacity into the market in order to make money and supply far less supply than demand. A very common practice to South America, as well as Africa.

[Edited 2006-01-26 08:34:39]
a.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:56 pm

In summary: yields to GIG are not garbage.

Quoting HALFA (Reply 12):
My comments about yields were regarding the high fares to Rio from the US. The fares have been high for 2+ years, flights are full and yields are high. Would you like to dispute that too?

Agree.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Look for a daylight MIA-GIG service, operated with a 777, in the spring, hopefully.

Tks for the info.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:00 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
They are artificially high because, due to the high tourist nature of Rio flights, airlines restrict their capacity into the market in order to make money and supply far less supply than demand. A very common practice to South America, as well as Africa

You cannot generalise in this way.

You cannot compare flights to airports such as GRU (where almost every single flag Europen airline operates), EZE, GIG, SCL, CCS, BOG, etc with airports in Africa. These South American airports handle a multitute of intercontinetal airlines/flights, whereas the vast majority of airports in Africa have one or two intercontinental flight.

Rgs,
 
HALFA
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Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2004 8:24 am

RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:13 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Please point out where I said that GIG yields aren't high. I never did.

So if you agree with me, then why are you trying to debate me? Very unnecessary.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
However, if GIG were to get much more capacity, those yields would likely fall.

Uh.....yah

HALFA
HA J Class Lie flats, coming soon to a plane near you........
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting HALFA (Reply 10):
As one who monitors airfares from LAX to GIG, I can tell you that for the last 2 years, fares have averaged about $1000.00US round trip, and the flights are almost ALWAYS full

I can the same after 12 trips Rio-ATL/MIA/JFK/LAX on the last 15 months. It's hard to obtain C tickets for Rio (last minute) due to the lack of non stop flights, and even Y are always full and with higher fares. Just need to say that AA usually offer deals from São Paulo and not from Rio.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
because in limited compieition markets like Rio de Janeiro, fares will be artificially high

Offer & Demand. Fares are high not only in Rio, but also in São Paulo.

Quoting Nethkt (Reply 14):
just wondering which 777 RG uses on JFK-GRU? I mean both day flight and the reded-eye one! I am flying on 20th FEB 06 JFK-GRU C class, so I can, at least, imagine and see some photos of the seat before I fly it real!

Nowadays PP-VRD and PP-VRI. VRD in fact is allocated to MIA, but VRJ (VRI pair) is on GIG-FRA nowadays.

Quoting Nethkt (Reply 14):
I know that VRA-VRB are the ones flying to FRA. (Anyone cfrm?)

Both are used on GIG-FRA. But VRB is out-of-service at Varig (now TP) CEMAN at GIG waiting for a new GE engine. Expect to be back on april.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Correct, with a stop in GRU. Which means passengers get on and off in GRU. In fact, I'd bet 80%+ get off in GRU to either stay in GRU or connect somewhere else.

RG8836 has traffic restriction and does not accept GIG-GRU-GIG pax. In fact generally 25% to 30% of the pax come to Rio as per RG sources. Remember that GRU is in fact the "Airport of Brazil".

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
if GIG were to get much more capacity, those yields would likely fall. They are artificially high because, due to the high tourist nature of Rio flights, airlines restrict their capacity into the market in order to make money and supply far less supply than demand. A very common practice to South America, as well as Africa.

If you improve GIG some pax that nowadays connects thru GRU will depart from Rio (i recall DL ATL case where 25% of their pax were from Rio, now they depart from GIG and a flight has been cancelled to São Paulo)
The problem is: São Paulo is profitable and the pax from Rio accept to connect there. Why airlines need to change a profitable route ? No need!

As i told about GRU-ATL, i imagine GRU-JFK will hurt some of the airlines.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 19):
You cannot generalise in this way.

Agree 100%

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24521
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 19):
whereas the vast majority of airports in Africa have one or two intercontinental flight.

One or two? Many have more than Santiago, Bogota, Quito, or Guayaquil do. You can absolutely compare the two. Markets where airlines restrict demand in order to squeeze out more profit. They do it in Sao Paulo too...it just happens to have a lot more demand than other markets, so it can handle all the services it does very well. It isn't rocket science to figure that out. SA)">AA has been doing it for years. Why do you think their LatAm network is so profitable? It isn't because SA)">AA dumps capacity.

Jo'Burg: BA, AF, LH, TP, IB, OA, LY, KL, LX + many more

Luanda: BA, AF, TP, SU, DT

Dakar: AF, TP, IB, AZ, DE, SA, SE, N7

Lagos: AF, IB, LH, AZ, BA, KL, VK, B3, EK + more
a.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:48 am

Oh NO... Another Sao Paulo versus Rio thread.

Sure Rio is a great destination, however its demand is no where near Sao Paulo's.

Sao Paulo simply put IS Brazil in the eyes of most airlines. The city being the largest city in South America fuels strong business and economy class demand. Rio a smaller city on the other hand is tilted more towards the seasonal tourist crowd along with convention and special event traffic.

Airlines will put their resources in markets where they feel the most demand is and they can hence receive the greatest returns. For the most part this is Sao Paulo.


Anyways, greetings to all, sitting here in Sao Paulo currently!
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22):
Jo'Burg: BA, AF, LH, TP, IB, OA, LY, KL, LX + many more

Luanda: BA, AF, TP, SU, DT

Dakar: AF, TP, IB, AZ, DE, SA, SE, N7

Lagos: AF, IB, LH, AZ, BA, KL, VK, B3, EK + more

Apart from JNB LOS, for which indeed you can compare with South America, neither of the above mentioned destinations receive daily flights. When I mentioned that AF operates in GRU, it entails 10 weekly flights, and not the 2 weekly in LAD, for example. As I said, you have to be more careful.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22):
You can absolutely compare the two.

No, you cannot compare the two markets. This would be wrong. Dynamics are competely different, especially because of a series of factors, such as 1) South American proximity to the US - have you realised the number of weekly flights out of GRU to the US?; 2) each market is different, you cannot even compare GRU and GIG, imagine South America and Africa. Please.

Rgs,


Rgs,
 
FMAL
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:16 am

RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:25 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 23):
Sao Paulo simply put IS Brazil in the eyes of most airlines. The city being the largest city in South America fuels strong business and economy class demand. Rio a smaller city on the other hand is tilted more towards the seasonal tourist crowd along with convention and special event traffic.

I'm from Rio, I live in Rio, but I must agree here.

I remember the good old days when I used to fly GIG-MXP-FCO on RG (or AZ, GIG-FCO non-stop). Rio was the center of Brazilian aviation there, and also the economic factor was not so lopsided in favor of SP, as many companies had their headquarters in Rio. Better times.

Having said that, yields in Rio are always high. I'm a frequent traveler, and all my international flights, non-stop more than frequently leave Rio full. AA had (or has) 2 non-stop daily GIG-MIA flights on high season.

The flights with stop in GRU always left with good PAX numbers.

Just my personal experience here.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: RG Extends 11 X Week JFK-GRU To Oct/06

Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 23):
Oh NO... Another Sao Paulo versus Rio thread.

No one is trying to compare Rio with São Paulo. Everyones know the Power of São Paulo, i'm trying only to say that Rio is a market (not so big!), nothing more. Pleaseeeee, do not understand as a Rio X SP game.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 23):
Anyways, greetings to all, sitting here in Sao Paulo currently!

If you accept some chopps at Vila Mariana, be my guest in São Paulo (where i live) I'm sending a private message to you.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 23):
Airlines will put their resources in markets where they feel the most demand is and they can hence receive the greatest returns. For the most part this is Sao Paulo.

Impossible not to agree 100% . I'm just trying to say that Rio is not garbage.

Quoting FMAL (Reply 25):

Agree with your words.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !

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