ballsdeep
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US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:52 am

Looks like the new flights to Hawaii are not off to the best of starts.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/0125hawaiiflights25.html
 
HPRamper
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:04 am

Eh, it's kinda old news. Nothing to read too much into, the same thing happens when a flight goes down on mechanical, especially at field stations....people get pissed, and it happens with every airline, every day.

That said, it IS a seasonal thing. Once the winds change, everyone will have forgotten about it.
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:04 am

Ah, teething problems on a new route. This is one of US's (HP) longest and most complex routes; I'm sure they'll get things sorted out given time. In the meantime, sounds like it's been rough on passengers and employees alike.
 
dfwagt
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:04 am

Perhaps they could use one of the 762s on the route? It holds about the same amount of pax, but they could take a full load.
 
desertjets
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:07 am

This has already been discussed in the past few weeks.


But I think the magnitude of the problem is greatly overstated. By HP's own numbers, only .5% of pax since the routes inaguration have been involuntarily bumped. Since this is also the first time America West has operated such a flight (yeah, yeah I know they did this 15 years ago w/ the 747) there were bound to be some problems that needed to be worked out. Hopefully when the paperwork change is finalized most of the technical issues will be worked out.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
neednewairport
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:53 am

This not surprising, they are pushing the 757 to the limits with this route. I cannot imagine what they will do when it is 110 in PHX and they are trying to take off.
 
alexinwa
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:27 am

We all knew this would happen. One would think they would put the 767 on this route.
You mad Bro???
 
cltguy
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting Neednewairport (Reply 5):
This not surprising, they are pushing the 757 to the limits with this route. I cannot imagine what they will do when it is 110 in PHX and they are trying to take off.

They will ask the passengers to get out and give the plane a little push. lol
 
Coronado990
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:32 am

The article states...

The planes already carry extra fuel because there is no place to tank up between here and Hawaii.

LAX would not work as a quick fuel stop? They have a 8 hr turn around on the islands so a late arrival is not the end of the world.
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
contrails
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:41 am

I wish the new US well, and I hope they can work the problems out with their Hawaiian flights, but I don't think I'd want to fly from PHX to Hawaii on a 757. They ought to use a 767 or A330.
Flying Colors Forever!
 
Junction
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:50 am

How does TZ do it? They have been flying 757s from PHX to Hawaii for years.
 
Tornado82
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting Junction (Reply 10):
How does TZ do it? They have been flying 757s from PHX to Hawaii for years.

And CO goes Europe-EWR as well.
 
desertjets
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:10 am

Folks, from all accounts it looks mostly like a paperwork issue. PHX-HNL/OGG is not all that long of a flight for a 757, it is more a matter of making sure the aircraft has a legal amount of fuel on board to making the crossing from the mainland to the islands. Once the MTOW is raised on the 3 ETOPS 757s should have much fewer problems. An extra 10,000lbs of payload would certainly make a huge difference.

The 57s that UA, AA, and TZ fly to Hawaii from the west coast probably have the higher MTOW already.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
positiverate
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting Neednewairport (Reply 5):
I cannot imagine what they will do when it is 110 in PHX and they are trying to take off.

One thing has nothing to do with the other. You're talking about a temperature component to takeoff performance. The story mentions how they need to offload passengers to carry the requisite fuel load because of seasonal headwinds. There are no isses with regards to the 757's peformance on takeoff. The two are not related.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 12):
The 57s that UA, AA, and TZ fly to Hawaii from the west coast probably have the higher MTOW already.

Indeed.

UA's Cali-based 752s employ the PW2040 specifically for that purpose.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
WA727
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:59 am

This problem will be tested again when they start KOA and LIH service from PHX in March. Hoping the loads will justify use of the 762 or even the A333 on the HNL route, but I doubt it. Currently pax have a choice between HA 763, TZ 752 and HP/US 752 from PHX. Can we stop typing HP/US yet?

WA727 in PHX
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gigneil
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting WA727 (Reply 15):
Hoping the loads will justify use of the 762 or even the A333 on the HNL route, but I doubt it.

No amount of loads will justify either. HNL is strong performing, but the international routes are stronger.

This will all be resolved. These 757s are a low gross weight. They can be fixed with paperwork.

N
 
desertjets
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:10 am

Plus until the integration is complete, ie everyone on the US cert, I don't believe that a USEast aircraft can operate a USWest route.

Plus as Neil said the 67s and 333s are far more needed on TA flights ex-PHL/CLT.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
WA727
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 16):
No amount of loads will justify either. HNL is strong performing, but the international routes are stronger

True the intl routes out of PHL and CLT are strong. PHX has yet to see the A330.
Don't just stand there, go get some glue!
 
gigneil
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 17):
Plus until the integration is complete, ie everyone on the US cert, I don't believe that a USEast aircraft can operate a USWest route.

US East can operate two Hawaii flights under the current agreement. Maybe there will be some winter HNL flying with a 762 that's off the Europe rotation, but probably not just yet.

Quoting WA727 (Reply 18):
PHX has yet to see the A330.

And they probably won't for a while... the A333 is not the ideal plane for Phoenix-Europe services, unfortunately. They could maybe get a good London service but it would certainly be restricted by some small amount.

US does not have a good plane presently for PHX-EU services at all, actually. Their 767-200ERs are also a lower gross weight and would need engine upgrades in addition to the MTOW upgrades to make Phoenix a reliable service.

N
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:24 am

I wouldn't exactly call having to bump customers because the plane is so full a bad thing. I mean granted, it is not good on one hand, but maximum capacity flights are a good thing. I suppose a lot deals on yields, but filling a plane up, generally, is good. At least they are getting market share.

How many A330s are on order? Though HP is operating the flight now, a US A-330 could takes its place if this trend keeps up and/or during the busy season and/or high wind. I guess the 762 is an option too, just hoping for the A-330.

M
 
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ua2162
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting WA727 (Reply 15):
This problem will be tested again when they start KOA and LIH service from PHX in March.

Great! I just got a job as a CSR for the KOA flight (I start on Monday.) Hopefully most of the bugs will be worked out before they start KOA service. At least I hope they are!
 
jacobin777
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:44 am

the thread heading is a bit off...this is a "good" problem too have...TOO many pax...

now if they had too few passengers,then the "rocky start" would be more appropriate...


HP will do fine once the paperwork is sorted out....
"Up the Irons!"
 
HPRamper
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):
the thread heading is a bit off...this is a "good" problem too have...TOO many pax...

now if they had too few passengers,then the "rocky start" would be more appropriate...

The problem referred to was planes being fully booked, but having to bump pax for whom seats WERE available because of weight and headwind issues. Thus, the aircraft flew with a number of empty seats.

That said, most of the problems were during the first week or so of service. This is when a large amount of heavy cargo was being carried to stock the stations. Spare tires, towbars, maintenance equipment etc. That's some pounds right there. I'm not sure if they are doing this as flights start up, or if they have already equipped the KOA and LIH stations.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 19):
Their 767-200ERs are also a lower gross weight and would need engine upgrades in addition to the MTOW upgrades to make Phoenix a reliable service.

couldnt be that difficult to accomplish (and that's if it's even necessary for their entire 762ER fleet) considering that they at one point considered flying said aircraft PHL-NRT.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
gigneil
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:02 am

You might be quite right... but I couldn't imagine it to be cost effective to do at this time with a fleet of 332s and 358s on the way.

I would leave the 762s low gross weight and get them ready to be relegated to PHX/LAS-HNL and FLL/CLT/PHL-Caribbean once the Airbus fleet is online.

N
 
PanAm747
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:11 am

I'm still not sure why HP ended their code share with Hawaiian Airlines on this route.

Hawaii routes are almost all leisure travellers. Not the high yield type, and even with a very strong hub, this is still not as much of a money maker as other routes could be.

Second, Hawaiian was already serving this route. So, just like that, code share is over...was there unhappiness with the set-up, or did HP just feel the need to have this trophy route?

I'm not accusing anyone of impropriety, but it didn't seem to me like the old system was broken, so why fix it?
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CALMSP
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:19 am

yes, temperature plays a factor, also PHX/LAS is also a lot higher elevation than that of LAX/SFO
 
alexinwa
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:21 am

If I am correct they have a number of 767's and a 333 doing PHL/CLT/CUN/SJU. So the reason they couldn't swap for Hawaii is not because of the atlantic service.

All the 767's that ran Shannon, Dublin, etc last summer are now in Mexico and SJC.

It also makes me wonder if the 767 will stay around a little longer sense it seems the widebody fleet is a little thin and HP can't help with that issue??
You mad Bro???
 
alexinwa
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:44 am

PHL-AMS 767 #42
PHL-CLT 767 #183
PHL-CLT 767 #1075
PHL-CLT 767 #307
PHL-FRA 333 #782
PHL-LGW 333 #98
PHL-MAD 767 #12
PHL-MAN 333 #196
PHL-MUC 767 #14
PHL-CDG 333 #26
PHL-FCO 333 #2
PHL-SJU 767 #1268
PHL-SJU 333 #1470
PHL-STT 767 #1424

CLT-CUN 767 #1429
CLT-FRA 333 #192
CLT-LGW 333 #94
CLT-PHL 767 #70
CLT-PHL 767 #1250
CLT-PHL 767 #186
CLT-SJU 767 #1297
CLT-SJU 767 #168

If I'm right they have 10 767's and 9 333's?
You mad Bro???
 
MidnightMike
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:45 am

Quote:
Cargo isn't an option because the airline hasn't been carrying much to Hawaii, he said.

"The rest of the weight is really passengers and bags," Seymour said. Instead of waiting until the last minute and scrambling to accommodate bumped passengers at the airport, US Airways says it's trying to do more pre-planning when the Hawaii flights are booked solid and forecasts call for high winds. Agents have been rerouting passengers in advance, usually on Hawaiian and Delta airlines.

Wonder if there was a tour group of scuba divers? That is a lot of weight to cause an aircraft to go overweight on just passengers & bags for a 757.

As far as the problems, though an annoyance to the passengers, is normal for airlines to suffer teething pains for a new route, espicially flights going to Hawaii & ETOPS issues....
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Tornado82
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:46 am

Hmm... the CLT-PIT-PHL repositioning run is gone? I got my first ever 767 trip on that one 2 years ago, and remember almost booking it as recently as March '05.
 
usairways85
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 31):
Hmm... the CLT-PIT-PHL repositioning run is gone? I got my first ever 767 trip on that one 2 years ago, and remember almost booking it as recently as March '05.

Are you referring to 762 CLT-PHL-CLT flts, because if so you can look a few posts up that shows 3 daily CLT-PHL 762 flts. Which is surprising to me, i've only seen 1 or 2 762's on the route before
 
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fxramper
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:57 am

Is HNL gated restricted?

Drew!
 
VEEREF
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:00 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 13):
One thing has nothing to do with the other. You're talking about a temperature component to takeoff performance. The story mentions how they need to offload passengers to carry the requisite fuel load because of seasonal headwinds. There are no isses with regards to the 757's peformance on takeoff. The two are not related.

???
Actually temp has everything to do with this. If the temperature rises, takeoff performance does indeed deteriorate, necessitating a further reduction in takeoff weight. Given the same fuel requirement enroute, the weight reduction would have to come by further payload (read pax) reductions.
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:13 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 25):
with a fleet of 332s

when are those scheduled for first delivery?
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bomber996
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:16 am

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 34):
Actually temp has everything to do with this. If the temperature rises, takeoff performance does indeed deteriorate, necessitating a further reduction in takeoff weight. Given the same fuel requirement enroute, the weight reduction would have to come by further payload (read pax) reductions.

The 757 has AMAZING takeoff performance. depending on the lenght of the runway it is using the 757 SHOULD have no problem making it to HNL from PHX, even on a hot day.

Peace  box 
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stirling
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:36 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 26):
Hawaii routes are almost all leisure travellers. Not the high yield type, and even with a very strong hub, this is still not as much of a money maker as other routes could be.

Hawaii is hot right now. Very hot.
Doing a little comparison shopping...(Longest Continental-US route vs. Longest Domestic-US route)

031106-031906
PHL-LAX 2087nm
US Fare $276 (Lowest N/S found on Orbitz/excludes tax)
$.13 per mile
A321

031106-031906
PHX-HNL 2535 nm
US Fare $738 (Lowest N/S found on Orbitz/excludes tax)
$.29 per mile
B757

I don't know...the route looks like it is making "some" money.
Double the shorter Philly to LA flight. (I have seen some fares in the $500 range, but these are few and far between...I used the same dates to get a fair fare comparison.)
Granted, we have no idea of how the yield management is set up on these flights; first class cabin; and how many award seats are allocated to both...so anything is possible, just wanted to show these flights are not the "giveaways" some perceive them to be.
For what its worth, I've known many people who've gone 1stClass to Hawaii, on *purchased* tickets....it's not just people redeeming frequent flyer miles.
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desertjets
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 34):
Actually temp has everything to do with this. If the temperature rises, takeoff performance does indeed deteriorate, necessitating a further reduction in takeoff weight. Given the same fuel requirement enroute, the weight reduction would have to come by further payload (read pax) reductions.

As far as I can surmise the flights are departing at or near MTOW (in this case ~240,000#). But due to fuel requirements on this flight pax/cargo payload has been reduced to meet fuel needs. The plane is still at or near MTOW, nothing to do with temperature or takeoff performance for this issue.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Tornado82
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 32):

Are you referring to 762 CLT-PHL-CLT flts, because if so you can look a few posts up that shows 3 daily CLT-PHL 762 flts. Which is surprising to me, i've only seen 1 or 2 762's on the route before

It's more than 2 years ago come to think of it.... But I definitely flew MGW-PIT-CLT-MDW once in college, it was one of those "want to go home, will fly the cheapest no matter what it takes" routings.. except I was going back to collect from home. CLT-PIT was a '67, not surprised to see it go though... I do believe I was the only person on the thing heading to a non-vacation locale on that flight. Sorry for any confusion, and like I said, I'm not the least bit surprised it's gone.

The CLT-PHL is the one I almost booked last spring, yes.
 
leothedog
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 1):
Eh, it's kinda old news.



Quoting DesertJets (Reply 4):
This has already been discussed in the past few weeks.

So what? Not everyone who comes in to a.net and reads these threads reads every thread and responses ever posted. I come and go and I've never seen this discussed.

And if an airline ever bumped me off a flight, I'd be pissed too. That's why I always get to the airport with plenty of time so I don't have to worry about that.
I've got things to see and people to do.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:56 am

If HP is trying to get certification from Boeing for 250,000 lbs versus 240,000 lbs., it sounds like we're talking a max structural takeoff weight limit, versus a runway or performance limit taking off from PHX.

Any HP dispatchers here who can confirm?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
neednewairport
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:57 am

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 34):

Thank you, my point exactly. When I worked flights LAS to HNL in the summer we were restricted due to high temps and weight. I just wonder how HP, opps US, is going to get around that.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:39 am

Quoting Neednewairport (Reply 5):
they are pushing the 757 to the limits with this route. I

Don't UA and AA fly 75's to/from the West Coast?

Do they have the same problems???
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:06 am

The US Hawaii routes are no way the longest in their system.

All the European flights are longer.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting Alexinwa (Reply 28):
If I am correct they have a number of 767's and a 333 doing PHL/CLT/CUN/SJU. So the reason they couldn't swap for Hawaii is not because of the atlantic service.
All the 767's that ran Shannon, Dublin, etc last summer are now in Mexico and SJC.

The 67s do warm-weather destination flights every winter. I don't know if US needs the capacity, but I assume they do. Hawaii takes up several of a fairly limited number (7?) of "domestic" 762s.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 35):
when are those scheduled for first delivery?

2009 as of right now.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
positiverate
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 34):
Quoting Positiverate (Reply 13):
One thing has nothing to do with the other. You're talking about a temperature component to takeoff performance. The story mentions how they need to offload passengers to carry the requisite fuel load because of seasonal headwinds. There are no isses with regards to the 757's peformance on takeoff. The two are not related.

???
Actually temp has everything to do with this. If the temperature rises, takeoff performance does indeed deteriorate, necessitating a further reduction in takeoff weight. Given the same fuel requirement enroute, the weight reduction would have to come by further payload (read pax) reductions.



Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 36):
The 757 has AMAZING takeoff performance. depending on the lenght of the runway it is using the 757 SHOULD have no problem making it to HNL from PHX, even on a hot day.



Quoting DesertJets (Reply 38):
As far as I can surmise the flights are departing at or near MTOW (in this case ~240,000#). But due to fuel requirements on this flight pax/cargo payload has been reduced to meet fuel needs. The plane is still at or near MTOW, nothing to do with temperature or takeoff performance for this issue.

I couldnt have said it better.
 
hawaiian717
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 8):
LAX would not work as a quick fuel stop? They have a 8 hr turn around on the islands so a late arrival is not the end of the world.

Maybe not for the airline, but you're talking about getting a whole planeload of people to HNL late, which means you piss off all of them, whether because they missed their connecting flight to another island or just cut a couple of hours off their beach time. Better to inconvenience just the few you can coerce into giving up their seats in exchange for some freebies.
 
777fan
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:09 pm

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 8):
LAX would not work as a quick fuel stop?

That would play right into HA's hands. Why would you want to take a meaningless 40 minute flight to refuel? Waste of fuel and potential revenue, yes?! Most pax would opt to hit the nonstop.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 43):
Don't UA and AA fly 75's to/from the West Coast?

Yes they both do; both are still a few hundred miles shorter than the jaunt to PHX. Count me in with the crowd that suggests the 762 on this route. Hawaii is so popular right now, you could load pax in pallets on a C-5 and still probably sell out!
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: US Airways To Hawaii Having A Rocky Start

Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:18 pm

Quoting Stirling (Reply 37):
Hawaii is hot right now. Very hot.
Doing a little comparison shopping...(Longest Continental-US route vs. Longest Domestic-US route)

031106-031906
PHL-LAX 2087nm
US Fare $276 (Lowest N/S found on Orbitz/excludes tax)
$.13 per mile
A321

031106-031906
PHX-HNL 2535 nm
US Fare $738 (Lowest N/S found on Orbitz/excludes tax)
$.29 per mile
B757

...for the US/HP system of course
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!

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