sebring
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AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:47 am

Taking advantage of the fifth freedoms under the new Canada-US bilateral

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/January2006/25/c0761.html
 
2travel2know
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:55 am

It'll be nice to see all those SYD bound passengers having to go thru U.S. Inmigration and Customs @ YYZ in order to board that plane, just because it's stops in LAX.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
PlaneGuy27
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:56 am

And let's see how UA will react to this? Maybe they won't at all since they will be able to sell it as a UA codeshare flight as well.
 
roseflyer
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:59 am

It is still better than flying YYZ-YVR-HNL-SYD. Until AC had adequate aircraft to operate YVR-SYD nonstop, a stopover in the United States is more than likely. What are the alternatives? Stopping in Mexico...Latin America? Or maybe Canada should go out on a blitz and take a few Pacific Islands. Are there any islands near Hawaii up for grabs?  Smile

Canadians and Australians don't have too many issues transiting in the United States since they don't have the strcit visa requirements that some citizens have to endure even to transit through the United States.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
DYK
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:22 am

Will this result in the suspension of the YVR-SYD route AC currently flies?
AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
 
aussiestu
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:34 am

So what exactly is Air Canada getting out of this. Does this mean they will now have 2 flights to Sydney from Canada? Will they have a flight that goes through Hawaii and a flight that goes through Los Angeles? Why not have one going to MEL or BRI and one to SYD?

I can see QF creating huge problems for them from LAX as this is their territory and they will defend it at all costs.
 
aussie747
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:36 am

Perhaps that will be the nail in the coffin in allowing SQ to have coveted LAX-SYD-LAX traffic rights.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:40 am

Quoting Aussiestu (Reply 5):
So what exactly is Air Canada getting out of this.

Their first foreign hub.

"The Toronto-originating flights would be timed to offer convenient connection possibilities in Los Angeles to and from Montreal, Edmonton, Calgary and Vancouver, as well as to and from points throughout the United States via Los Angeles on flights operated by Air Canada's Star Alliance partners, United Airlines and US Airways."
International Homo of Mystery
 
aussiestu
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
Their first foreign hub.

Thankyou AeroWesty now it makes more sense.......I should read more!
 
roseflyer
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
connection possibilities in Los Angeles to and from Montreal, Edmonton, Calgary and Vancouver, as well as to and from points throughout the United States via Los Angeles on flights operated by Air Canada's Star Alliance partners, United Airlines and US Airways.

I doubt that AC will get a lot of passengers connecting from United in LAX. United already operates LAX-SYD. I am presuming that UA and AC will codeshare on both flights (is that allowed in the bilateral?). This will just give more options. I am really looking forward to the new 777s for Air Canada. What type of 777 would operate this route?
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
2travel2know
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:17 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
It is still better than flying YYZ-YVR-HNL-SYD. Until AC had adequate aircraft to operate YVR-SYD nonstop, a stopover in the United States is more than likely. What are the alternatives? Stopping in Mexico...Latin America? Or maybe Canada should go out on a blitz and take a few Pacific Islands. Are there any islands near Hawaii up for grabs?

Does any of AC aircrafts has the range for a YVR - NAN/NOU/AKL, YVR - PPT or YYZ-PPT?

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
Canadians and Australians don't have too many issues transiting in the United States since they don't have the strcit visa requirements that some citizens have to endure even to transit through the United States.

I've witness how "stereotyped australians" reacted on having to transit the U.S.A. for their YVR-HNL-SYD flight. Australian and Candians not having too many issues? How about a poll?
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
Simpilicity
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting Aussiestu (Reply 5):
So what exactly is Air Canada getting out of this. Does this mean they will now have 2 flights to Sydney from Canada? Will they have a flight that goes through Hawaii and a flight that goes through Los Angeles? Why not have one going to MEL or BRI and one to SYD?

AC already have 2 daily flights SYD/HNL/YVR less than 2 hours apart in peak season. CRAZY !!!
(AC46 does not operate WED)

** AMADEUS TIMETABLE - TN ** YVR VANCOUVER.CABC 26JAN06 02FEB06
1 AC 034 D SYD 1 YVR M 0930 0725 1 26JAN06 02FEB06 763 16:55
2 AC 046 X3 SYD 1 YVR M 1115 0910 1 26JAN06 02FEB06 763 16:55

What is this fascination with SYD. SYD is overserviced already with QF & UA flights to LAX-SFO.

I can see QF creating huge problems for them from LAX as this is their territory and they will defend it at all costs.

What will QF do? They're screwing every last cent out of Australians on these routes. Can't see them dropping their fares. Or maybe they do the old ... drop the fares & increase the full surcharge the same amount.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 10):
e witness how "stereotyped australians" reacted on having to transit the U.S.A. for their YVR-HNL-SYD flight. Australian and Candians not having too many issues? How about a poll?

It's totally stupid that the yanks no longer allow Australians/Canadians to transit HNL as prior to SEP11.

Bin Laden's crew aren't going to fly into the U.S. on a commercial flight. They'll come in via learjet full of cocaine !!!

Yanks should stop trying to be WORLD POLICE. they do a really bad job of it & just annoy more of the world, which got the U.S. into trouble in the 1st place.
 
roseflyer
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:09 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 10):
I've witness how "stereotyped australians" reacted on having to transit the U.S.A. for their YVR-HNL-SYD flight. Australian and Candians not having too many issues? How about a poll?

I was referring to the fact that Canadians don't need visas to enter the United States. Compare that to a Brazilian or Latin American who would need to fill out an entire visa application and get it approved in order to transit via an American city.

Yes it is a hassle, but it is no where near as much of a hassle as for citizens of other countries. I was not stereotyping. I would hate transiting in the US too. But the United States feels a need to scan every person that sets foot in the country regardless of how long they are staying or if they are in a transit zone and not officially entering the country.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
aircanada014
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:32 am

This is going to be awesome and very interesting to see how well AC perform the flight. UA and US and NZ will be able to codeshare on AC's flight from YYZ to LAX to SYD. I believe they will be using 777-200LR because their first 777s in early spring of March will be 777-300ERS. So they mention first half of 2007 would most likely be 200LR.
 
jupiter2
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:38 am

Bring them on !!

I would assume it would be the LR as well.

What will happen to the YVR flight ?? Continue as is with a 763 (787) via HNL, be upgraded to a 777, or dropped to feed into the LAX flight ??

I would assume it will continue as is, maybe go to non stop with a 777, at least during the peak season.

RL
 
krisyyz
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:43 am

Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 13):
I believe they will be using 777-200LR because their first 777s in early spring of March will be 777-300ERS. So they mention first half of 2007 would most likely be 200LR.

It would make sense for AC to use its LRs on this route. As far as I know the 3 ERs will be flying YYZ- FRA, LHR and NRT (Please correct me if Im wrong). I would assume that AC will basically use the 3ERs as it did its old B744 combies.

AC first 3 B777 will be -300ERs, 4 -200LR will be delivered in 2007 as well. By 2008 AC will have all of its 3-773ERS and 12 LRs.

Krisyyz
 
aircanada014
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:45 am

I think they will keep the YVR to HNL to SYD. I guess passengers on YYZ to LAX don't have to get off the plane and stay on the plane to continue its journey to SYD? Maybe they might offer nonstop from YVR to SYD in the future using 787s or 777-200LRs. Now I have two choices to fly on AC to SYD. I can't wait. I wonder whats their next step after SYD for using 5th freedom rights?. I think UA will be lucky or happy to offer more flights on AC's flight out of LAX to some other destinations since AC will be getting new a/c while we are waiting for UA plans for upgrading fleet and renewal.
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting Simpilicity (Reply 11):
Yanks should stop trying to be WORLD POLICE. they do a really bad job of it & just annoy more of the world, which got the U.S. into trouble in the 1st place.

I have to admit I agree with that.



CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:56 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 15):
By 2008 AC will have all of its 3-773ERS and 12 LRs.

This is the first time I've seen a breakdown of the 777 order other than the 2 772F's. So AC is only getting 3 773ER's in the 18-unit order? What is your source?

Regards
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
chrisa330
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:00 am

Actually it's 13 LRs. The Boeing order site has the breakdown, as well as in this presentation:

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/in...ments/Marketing_Nov-Dec%202005.pdf
 
aircanada014
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:05 am

As far as I know 3 777-300ERs, 2 777-200F and 13 777-200LRs
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:09 am

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 19):
Actually it's 13 LRs. The Boeing order site has the breakdown, as well as in this presentation:

Cheers, thanks Chris.  Smile I'm surprised the mix is not more 773ER's and fewer 772LR's. I'm also surprised at the delivery schedule of all 13 772LR's in just 2 years including 9 in one year. Looks like AC plans a rapid phase-out of the 343.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
jacobin777
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:51 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 21):

Cheers, thanks Chris. Smile I'm surprised the mix is not more 773ER's and fewer 772LR's.

with the -200LR based of the -200ER model, it has less seats than the -300ER so filling it up (which will hopefully lead to better yields) will be easier, not to mention cheaper (fuel, ect)...

also, the -200LR will do a good job in carrying cargo down below.....

if the service is right, I think AC could do well on this route...

also, I think its UA who might see some share deterioration...but UA has double dailies only on Mon/Thurs/Sat...so maybe AC will pick up some of those empty dates where UA only has a single flight....
"Up the Irons!"
 
airtropolis
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:03 am

Quoting Aussie747 (Reply 6):
Perhaps that will be the nail in the coffin in allowing SQ to have coveted LAX-SYD-LAX traffic rights.

It really depends, if the Aussie govt grants AC the rights to the route, then there really is no reason, to deny it to SQ, (except for the reason that QF considers SQ a more formidable competitor than AC). I am sure that SQ is looking at this one closely, granting the route to AC but not to SQ raises a lot of question marks especially given the fact that Australia and Singapore have a FTA and should in effect have an open skies agreement as such, as well as the fact that QF have virtually unlimited rights to fly through SIN and beyond.
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:20 am

Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 16):
I guess passengers on YYZ to LAX don't have to get off the plane and stay on the plane to continue its journey to SYD?

WOW!! Sure didn't see this one coming. On a journey of this length, customers would deplane at LAX to facilitate full cabin grooming and catering, but in light of this, would AC have to realign its operatings at LAX as T-2 does not have an in-transit area AFAIK. However, having said that, what is the procedure for LHR customers on Air New Zealand's AKL/LAX/LHR route??

I don't think there is any doubt that YVR-SYD will be maintained as a separate entity.

As previously stated, the biggest hurdle will be regulatory approval by the OZ government.

[Edited 2006-01-26 03:23:02]
Above and Beyond
 
jupiter2
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:47 am

Airtropolis, for one I can't see any reason why the Australian Govt would not allow AC this route, it is afterall a "natural route". In that I mean it is a logical route to be flown from YYZ, no different than say OS flying to Australia via KUL, they have full traffic rights on all segements which have been granted by all respective governments.

To say that for SQ to fly from SIN to LAX via SYD is a natural (direct) route would be stretching the imagination somewhat, especially when they already operate the route non stop. Of course the government could always consider what the Australian and Japanese Goernments did when NW wanted to fly from JFK to SYD via Osaka, that is put a limit on the number of seats that can be sold from the mid point, in this case SYD or MEL, wherever they decide, and also show that the aircraft is carrying at least 50% of its passengers from SIN to LAX.

Also the argument about QF having unlimited rights from SIN beyond is really a mute point, when SIN is basically being used as a hubbing tech stop. Sure QF pick up and drop off passengers in SIN, but the percentage would be tiny to what they carry to the final destinations. Let SIN restrict QF to purely origin destination traffic, you'll see QF jump to KL or the new BKK airport, or just use SIN as a tech stop and maybe a 767 or 330 a day from the major cities is what they will bring in for the traffic to SIN. If the Australian government in turn restricted SQ's ability to the same, SQ would be by far the worse off. Of course this will never happen, but can you see the point ?? Doing this would also push QF further to ULH aircraft and avoid SIN altogether.

As for Jetstar Asia, well it is as much a Singapore company as it is QF, and there is nothing stopping SQ from doing something similar in Australia.

As I said before bring on AC and DJ for that matter as Pacific Blue. Get these two started on the route together with QF, UA, NZ and soon Jetstar International and there is more than enough competition and options.

RL
 
aircanada014
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:26 pm

Can you imagine if AC takes all the orders in 36 777s and 60 787s and expands rapidly and uses the 5th freedom they could take on NW, DL and AA and CO along with US and UA, AC would have big piece of market shares for international from North American gateaway. I don't want this sound to be AC vs American carriers. AC would open up more routes and destinations using the 5th freedom. Whats next after SYD route? maybe YVR to JFK to GRU or YYZ to LAX to HKG
 
RP TPA
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:35 pm

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 24):
On a journey of this length, customers would deplane at LAX to facilitate full cabin grooming and catering, but in light of this, would AC have to realign its operatings at LAX as T-2 does not have an in-transit area AFAIK.

Actually, on the YYZ-LAX-SYD legs, an in-transit area wouldnt be necessary. Since all psgrs would preclear US immigrations in YYZ, it would simply be a domestic-type arrival in LAX. Those psgrs who are ending their journey in LAX would just get their bags at domestic baggage claim and they're good to go. You have a good point about the SYD thru psgrs having to deplane for grooming and catering, but they wouldnt have to remain in a sterile area.

By the way, does LAX T2 have a US immigration area? I would assume it does since NZ from AKL arrives there, but since all AC arrivals are precleared I never really thought about it.
 
Carpethead
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:40 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 21):
I'm surprised the mix is not more 773ER's and fewer 772LR's. I'm also surprised at the delivery schedule of all 13 772LR's in just 2 years including 9 in one year. Looks like AC plans a rapid phase-out of the 343.

Or perhaps some major int'l growth in the meantime and then replacement of the A343/333.
AC had drawn a lot of new lines on their proposed int'l route map.
 
roseflyer
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 27):
By the way, does LAX T2 have a US immigration area?

Yes Terminal 2 has customs and immigration that is used by multiple airlines. It isn't nearly as bad as the Tom Bradley International Terminal around the time when multiple international arrivals come. Of course United's Terminal 7 is still nicer.

I believe that the international airlines other than Air Canada that use Terminal 2 in LAX are:
Virgin Atlantic
Air New Zealand
Northwest
KLM
Air China
Avianca

[Edited 2006-01-26 04:50:07]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:09 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 21):

Cheers, thanks Chris. Smile I'm surprised the mix is not more 773ER's and fewer 772LR's.

with the -200LR based of the -200ER model, it has less seats than the -300ER so filling it up (which will hopefully lead to better yields) will be easier, not to mention cheaper (fuel, ect)...

Yes and no. The 772LR is actually LESS efficient than the lighter 772ER (which AC has not ordered) on all routes that the 772ER can fly nonstop which is basically anything up to 7500 nm. So the 13 772LR order means that AC must be planning alot of ultra-longhauls.

Quoting Aussiestu (Reply 5):
So what exactly is Air Canada getting out of this.

AC may have determined that it's losing alot of YYZ-Aus traffic to AA/QF via LAX, and decided to respond. Just an idea.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
sebring
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:57 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 30):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 21):
Quoting Aussiestu (Reply 5):So what exactly is Air Canada getting out of this.
AC may have determined that it's losing alot of YYZ-Aus traffic to AA/QF via LAX, and decided to respond. Just an idea.

I suspect that's part of it. AC also faces QF this year on SYD-YVR, so maybe this is a bit of a warning shot as well. Finally, AC is basing all the 777s in Toronto, so it is easier to get a backup in the event of a technical for a 777. The inbound LHR plane can be re-rerouted through to SYD. I think we can expect most AC 777 routes, save for about four planes that will be rotated through Vancouver on the transcon to do HKG and NRT, to be Toronto-origin. Hence, YYZ-FRA, YYZ-LHR (certainly AC856, the flagship flight), YYZ-NRT, YYZ-GRU (winter) and future flights like YYZ-BOM and YYZ-JNB which are longer-term propositions, but very do-able from Toronto.
 
aircanada014
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:10 pm

I wish AC luck and I hope this will be very successful. Who knows maybe AC will open up more Australia destinations and New Zealand too. Couldn't SQ just put a codeshare flights on UA along with AC from SYD to LAX portion?.
 
N1120A
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:14 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 10):
Does any of AC aircrafts has the range for a YVR - NAN/NOU/AKL, YVR - PPT or YYZ-PPT?

The 772LR will have YVR-SYD range
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
jacobin777
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:40 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 30):
Yes and no. The 772LR is actually LESS efficient than the lighter 772ER (which AC has not ordered) on all routes that the 772ER can fly nonstop which is basically anything up to 7500 nm. So the 13 772LR order means that AC must be planning alot of ultra-longhauls.

interesting...you might be correct, I did read this somewhere else also....my bad..but the -200LR does give them more flexibility.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
SFORunner
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:30 pm

Quoting Jupiter2 (Reply 25):
Airtropolis, for one I can't see any reason why the Australian Govt would not allow AC this route

Recall that QF will be starting SFO - YVR in a couple of months' time.

The Australiain Gov't permitting AC LAX - SYD could be seen as par for the course.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:46 pm

This is all going to be interesting how it all pans out. Sure UA/AC are going to code share and will "scratch each others backs" on the route as they do on other code share routes, I just wonder when UA starts upgrading their interiors during the course of this year, if they will make a point of undertaking the 747's first as they do a majority of the Asia routes etc, so they can make a case for flying them as opposed to say AC on these new routes. Time will tell.
 
Gemuser
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:25 pm

Quoting SFORunner (Reply 35):
Quoting Jupiter2 (Reply 25):
Airtropolis, for one I can't see any reason why the Australian Govt would not allow AC this route

Recall that QF will be starting SFO - YVR in a couple of months' time.

The Australiain Gov't permitting AC LAX - SYD could be seen as par for the course.

Canada has had traffic rights USA-Oz since 1954! As Australia has had US-Canada rights. As these flights will use EXISTING rights, there is no need for OZ government approval of the traffic rights.

AI also has these rights (from the Oz point of view)

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
N1120A
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:25 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 30):
Yes and no. The 772LR is actually LESS efficient than the lighter 772ER (which AC has not ordered) on all routes that the 772ER can fly nonstop which is basically anything up to 7500 nm.

Up to 7500nm? I don't think so. At 7009nm, EWR-HKG is the longest 772ER non-stop in the world and CO has given serious consideration toward a 772LR purchase specifically because of weight restrictions taken on that flight, even with the highest gross weight 772ERs available. Widebodyphotog actually did a chart showing that the 772LR would be more efficient on hauls over 6000-6500nm in length because of the greater degree of cargo uplift and the decrese in the number of weight restrictions. Additionally, the scaled up versions of the GE-90 used on the 773ER and 772LR have a lower SFC than older versions on the 772ER, which further narrows any gap because of weight

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 30):
So the 13 772LR order means that AC must be planning alot of ultra-longhauls.

AC carrys a lot of cargo, see above.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Gemuser
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:04 pm

Quoting Airtropolis (Reply 23):
Quoting Aussie747 (Reply 6):
Perhaps that will be the nail in the coffin in allowing SQ to have coveted LAX-SYD-LAX traffic rights.

It really depends, if the Aussie govt grants AC the rights to the route, then there really is no reason, to deny it to SQ, (except for the reason that QF considers SQ a more formidable competitor than AC). I am sure that SQ is looking at this one closely, granting the route to AC but not to SQ raises a lot of question marks especially given the fact that Australia and Singapore have a FTA and should in effect have an open skies agreement as such, as well as the fact that QF have virtually unlimited rights to fly through SIN and beyond.

As per my previous post, the Oz government does NOT have to grant AC rights, they were granted in 1954! So your entire argument about rights is not relevent.

It would add weight to QFs arguement that there is sufficient competition on the Pacific. I would judge that AC would be less of a compatior than SQ, because SQ is in a better finincal position than AC and AC has more oppunities in other markets than SQ does, therefor less total intrest in the SW Pacific. In fact this is so convient for QF I wonder if they encouraged it!

I am sick of the statement "that QF have virtually unlimited rights to fly through SIN and beyond" being used to suggest that SQ should get Pacific rights to balance things up. QFs rights to/through SIN were paid for by Oz allowing SQ sixth freedom right from Oz. This raises the question, in my mind, how would SIN pay for SQs Pacific rights?

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
jupiter2
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:26 pm

Gemuser,

Exactly what I was saying, I probably spent to much time trying to justify what I was saying.

In regard to the 777LR's efficiency over routes that the ER could operate, wouldn't the LR be just as efficient at equal weights ? The 200ER would have to carry max fuel, while the LR wouldn't, to me that would mean either lower fuel burn to keep the beast in the air, or the ability to carry extra payload in the form of cargo. I'm sure our experts on here will tell me otherwise !!

RL
 
pictues
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:44 pm

Quoting PlaneGuy27 (Reply 2):



Quoting PlaneGuy27 (Reply 2):
And let's see how UA will react to this? Maybe they won't at all since they will be able to sell it as a UA codeshare flight as well.

AC already has fith freedom rights on HNL-SYD and UA Code Shares on that flight and they also have a HNL-SYD Flight
 
jupiter2
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:52 pm

Pictues,

UA does not serve HNL/Australia and they do not code share on the AC flight.

UA used to operate flights to this part of the world from HNL with 747's and DC 10's, but all flights are now 744's non stop from SFO and LAX.

RL
 
pictues
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:55 pm

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 24):
WOW!! Sure didn't see this one coming. On a journey of this length, customers would deplane at LAX to facilitate full cabin grooming and catering, but in light of this, would AC have to realign its operatings at LAX as T-2 does not have an in-transit area AFAIK. However, having said that, what is the procedure for LHR customers on Air New Zealand's AKL/LAX/LHR route??

Well the pax on Cathay's 888/889 flight do not deplane in YVR for grooming so maybe they'll stay on the plane
 
roseflyer
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting Jupiter2 (Reply 40):
In regard to the 777LR's efficiency over routes that the ER could operate, wouldn't the LR be just as efficient at equal weights ? The 200ER would have to carry max fuel, while the LR wouldn't, to me that would mean either lower fuel burn to keep the beast in the air, or the ability to carry extra payload in the form of cargo.

The 772LR weighs more to begin with, so it is less efficient on the same route that a 772ER could run presuming that the passengers and cargo are the same.

The 772LR benefits from being able to carry more cargo. That extra take off weight can be used. On a flight between LAX and SYD, the extra weight can be of advantage because it is an extremely long route that is pushing the 772ER to its limits.

AC operating a 772LR between LAX and SYD is like EK operating an A345 between JFK and DXB. The 772ER can fly between DXB and New York nonstop (as MH did the route for years, but EK can take more cargo with the higher weight plane.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
2travel2know
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:36 am

Since AC is to face tought competition from both UA/QF when they'll fly LAX-SYD, Would it be feasible for AC to route that YYZ-SYD via another U.S. West coast airport (but not SFO) and then offer an slightly different product than QF/UA?
Crayze as it seems; ONT, OAK, PHX, LAS are the alternate airports thay would come to mind.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
AC787
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:39 am

This is very coool news. Quick questions though, would YVR-SYD be slated to change to nonstop now that the yyz-lax-syd route was operating? If so, what would the flight time difference be and if its close why would anyone from yyz go for the lax flight.

Second question, is frequency a big deal on the LAX-SYD route, i know QF has lots of flights but is it as important as other routes? Would AC have an oppertunity of capturing business traffic(on the american side would be the most likely) on the LAX-SYD route.

Either way, very cool news. I hope to see many more routes like this. YYZ-MIA-many places in central america/south america that cant be financially viable from yyz nonstop would be very interesting IMO.

AC787
 
bmacleod
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:41 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 1):
It'll be nice to see all those SYD bound passengers having to go thru U.S. Inmigration and Customs @ YYZ in order to board that plane, just because it's stops in LAX.

If they're staying on the plane in during stopover in LAX, why go through US customs in YYZ?  confused 
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
2travel2know
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting AC787 (Reply 46):
I hope to see many more routes like this. YYZ-MIA-many places in central america/south america that cant be financially viable from yyz nonstop would be very interesting IMO.

I doubt this ever will happen.
(1) Latinamerican governments are far more protective of their national airlines than Australia, specially if it comes to MIA. There was a big issue when IB started a hub operation in MIA and had rights to most Centralamerican destiantions and CUN.
(2) For Latinamericans flying to Canada via an U.S. airport is a mega-hassle, airlines flying non-stop Latinamerica-Canada are doing well just because of this.
The U.S. visa requirement policy would sure kill any attempt by AC to venture into Latinamerica via MIA (or another U.S. airport); however, an option for this kind of operation would be to set a AC hub - somewhere AC flights from YVR, YYC/YWG, YYZ and YUL would arrive (and maybe Star Alliance from U.S. Airports too) - in the West Caribbean (HAV/KIN) or Centralamerica (BZE/PTY) and send passengers from this airport to several destinations that can't support dedicated non-stop or widebody services to Canada - of course, 5th rights allowed.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
SFORunner
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RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07

Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting Jupiter2 (Reply 42):
UA does not serve HNL/Australia and they do not code share on the AC flight.

UA 8489 and UA 8490 are the code shares for AC 0033 and AC 0046.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 37):
As these flights will use EXISTING rights, there is no need for OZ government approval of the traffic rights.

http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/air-aerien/agreements/html/australia_e.html



Pre-determination 3000 seats/wk without restrictions as to frequency or aircraft type. No capacity limits on code-share services.


Would the addition of the LAX flight break this cap?