2travel2know
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Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:04 am

Just like the U.S. has Port-of-Entry facilities in several major Canadian Airports, Would it be possible to have Canadian Port-of-Entry facilities in a couple of U.S. major aiports someday?
Which U.S. Airports should have those?
Which ones actually have room for such facilities?
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DYK
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:12 am

There is no way the U.S. government would allow a foreign country to have such facilities on their soil???
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slawko
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:10 am

I find that hard to believe. I cant imagine we signed an agreement letting them put people on our soil, and didnt make provisions to have the same in the US. The fact is, it is expensive, and unless the carriers/public want to pay for it then it wont happen.
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ckfred
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:42 am

It does make one wonder how the U.S. gets pre-clearance facilities in Canada, as well as other countries, but the U.S. has never allowed Canada or other countries to set up pre-clearance facilities here.

It would be difficult, because at any given airport, flights to Canada often leave from various locations. At ORD, UA flights leave from Terminal 1, AC flights leave from Terminal 2, and AA flights leave from Terminal 3.

At ATL, IIRC, AC is on Concourse D, while DL flights could depart from T, A, B, or C.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:30 am

Its primarily a cost and logistics issue for the other government, then a reluctance from a bilateral point of view by the US not being willing to host such foreign government clearance facilities.
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FLYACYYZ
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:42 am

One would think that these facilities would be reciprocally negotiated, however AFAIK, Canada and Ireland are the only two countries which have secured US preclearance.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:56 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 5):
One would think that these facilities would be reciprocally negotiated,

But if they are reciprocally negotiated, the carriers lose the operational advantage of being able to operate from domestic terminals in the States. What's the point then?
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2travel2know
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 3):
It would be difficult, because at any given airport, flights to Canada often leave from various locations. At ORD, UA flights leave from Terminal 1, AC flights leave from Terminal 2, and AA flights leave from Terminal 3.
At ATL, IIRC, AC is on Concourse D, while DL flights could depart from T, A, B, or C.

Well at any Canadian airport with U.S. Preclearance, all U.S. bound flights (except CX YVR-JFK) depart from the same area.
If an airport like ATL, IAH, ORD, DFW, EWR was to have plenty of flights to Canada, It would be logical to concentrate all of the departures on a Canadian Preclearance area..

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 5):
One would think that these facilities would be reciprocally negotiated, however AFAIK, Canada and Ireland are the only two countries which have secured US preclearance.

Aslo AUA, NAS, FPO and BDA (maybe another airport too) have U.S. preclearance.
I really don't see the need Eire or AUA would have of a national preclearance at an U.S. Airport, however due to the traffic between several U.S. Airports and Canada, few U.S. airports actually should have them.
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ckfred
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:56 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 7):
If an airport like ATL, IAH, ORD, DFW, EWR was to have plenty of flights to Canada, It would be logical to concentrate all of the departures on a Canadian Preclearance area..

I don't think that U.S. carriers want to do this. At ORD, UA and AA flights from Europe and Asia, then the planes are towed to Terminals 1 and 3, respectively. Planes destined for Canada would have to be towed from the respective terminals to the preclearance concourse.

This would also add to the connection times, if a person going to Canada had to change planes at ORD, or at any other hub airport.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:50 pm

The percentage of total traffic that are transborder flights at various Canadian airports which originate at those airports is much higher than the percentage at US airports. Preclearance at a connection is less desirable than a clearance at the destination There just isn't enough traffic originating at a specific US airport bound to destinations in Canada that would require a preclearance going to Canada. I doubt the US would object to such preclearance but without US airports or US airlines wanting preclearance it isn't going to happen.
 
charlipr
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 5):
One would think that these facilities would be reciprocally negotiated, however AFAIK, Canada and Ireland are the only two countries which have secured US preclearance.

No they are not. AUA, BDA, NAS, FPO are airports were you clear U.S. Customs before returning to the states.
 
goaliemn
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 9):
There just isn't enough traffic originating at a specific US airport bound to destinations in Canada that would require a preclearance going to Canada.

I think thats the biggest factor.

Plus, even if a flight is pre-cleared, there still has to be customs at the destination airport, at least thats how it is here in the US. You have to have customs available, just in case. The US Preclearance takes some of the load off the US customs at the US airport where it lands. Air Canada, I believe, ran into that when they wanted to fly to San Diego. There was no customs there, so they ended up landing somewhere else with customs, then continuing onto San Diego.

As far as how it all works, do a google search for the preclearance act of canada. Its an interesting read on how it all works.
 
2travel2know
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 9):
There just isn't enough traffic originating at a specific US airport bound to destinations in Canada that would require a preclearance going to Canada.

Out of curiosity, Which would be the U.S. Airport with the most fights to Canada (by both U.S. and Canadian airlines) nowadays?

Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 11):
Plus, even if a flight is pre-cleared, there still has to be customs at the destination airport, at least thats how it is here in the US. You have to have customs available, just in case. The US Preclearance takes some of the load off the US customs at the US airport where it lands.

I flew YVR-LAX and both inmigration and Customs were @ YVR U.S. Port of Entry facility. What I hear is that only passengers pre-cleared on Eire (DUB/SNN) have to go thru U.S. customs upon arrival in the U.S.A. as there's no U.S. Customs overthere, from all other pre-cleared passengers arrive domestic.

Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 11):
Air Canada, I believe, ran into that when they wanted to fly to San Diego. There was no customs there, so they ended up landing somewhere else with customs, then continuing onto San Diego.

I understand SAN is a U.S. Port of Entry airport, which means that the do have Inmigration and Customs facility (Mexican airlines fly/flew into SAN), so a preclared flight from Canada shouldn't have any problems there. I did hear about AS or it was AC which wanted to fly YVR-BUR or YVR-SNA and had to cancel it because at last minute they found out that the airport isn't a Port of Entry (has no customs).

It's funny how this U.S. Pre-clearance works..
CO is to fly LGA-AUA-LGA Sundays because AUA has U.S. Port of Entry facility and LGA is a Port of Entry Airport, then imagine someone someday could fly DUB/SNN - LGA Sundays just because this too!
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Trvlr
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 11):
Air Canada, I believe, ran into that when they wanted to fly to San Diego.

2travel2know is right. You are thinking of AS not AC, and SNA not SAN.

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EnviroTO
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 11):

Plus, even if a flight is pre-cleared, there still has to be customs at the destination airport, at least thats how it is here in the US.

No. Most flights from Canada to the US arrive and depart from domestic gates in the US because US Customs and Immigration is located at Canadian airports.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 12):

Out of curiosity, Which would be the U.S. Airport with the most fights to Canada (by both U.S. and Canadian airlines) nowadays?

I'm not sure but it is probably Chicago. Back when CP was still around the flights were near hourly thoughout the day between them and AA on both routes and that didn't include UA or AC which also ran at similar frequencies. It is probably Chicago because more cities are served in Canada from there whereas only YYZ and YUL get service from LGA which I would guess is the second largest. In LGA there would be greater O&D to Canada whereas ORD would have more connections making LGA probably the most suited for pre-clearance to Canada.
 
2travel2know
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 14):
I'm not sure but it is probably Chicago. Back when CP was still around the flights were near hourly thoughout the day between them and AA on both routes and that didn't include UA or AC which also ran at similar frequencies. It is probably Chicago because more cities are served in Canada from there whereas only YYZ and YUL get service from LGA which I would guess is the second largest.

It would make sense if it's ORD, it's in the middle of the U.S.A and can easily have flights to western (YVR/YYC/YEG), middle (YWG) and eastern (YYZ/YOW/YUL) Canada.
I'm not sure if MSP, ATL or EWR are big on Canadian flights too.

[Edited 2006-01-27 22:18:42]
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SHUPirate1
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 5):
One would think that these facilities would be reciprocally negotiated, however AFAIK, Canada and Ireland are the only two countries which have secured US preclearance.



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 7):
Aslo AUA, NAS, FPO and BDA (maybe another airport too) have U.S. preclearance.
I really don't see the need Eire or AUA would have of a national preclearance at an U.S. Airport, however due to the traffic between several U.S. Airports and Canada, few U.S. airports actually should have them.

STT actually also has preclearance facilities, which is as bizarre as it sounds, because the US Virgin Islands are part of the United States!

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 12):
It's funny how this U.S. Pre-clearance works..
CO is to fly LGA-AUA-LGA Sundays because AUA has U.S. Port of Entry facility and LGA is a Port of Entry Airport, then imagine someone someday could fly DUB/SNN - LGA Sundays just because this too!

Don't the Irish airports only have one or the other (I forget which one though)?
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sergeant655
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 11):
CO is to fly LGA-AUA-LGA Sundays because AUA has U.S. Port of Entry facility and LGA is a Port of Entry Airport, then imagine someone someday could fly DUB/SNN - LGA Sundays just because this too!

LGA has a small customs facility ment for biz jets. AT DUB/SNN you only clear immigration there. You clear customs on arrival in the states. A full 757 might overload customs interms of long lines
 
2travel2know
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:18 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 16):
STT actually also has preclearance facilities, which is as bizarre as it sounds, because the US Virgin Islands are part of the United States!

I understand that the U.S. Virgin Island do follow U.S. Inmigration policies but when it comes to Customs, they've their own, since they're a Duty Free Zone.

Quoting Sergeant655 (Reply 17):
AT DUB/SNN you only clear immigration there. You clear customs on arrival in the states.

Any reason why AUA, NAS, BDA and several Canadian Airports have U.S. Customs but Eire DUB/SNN don't?
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jetsetsteve
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:50 am

I know for one thing alot of U.S airports have poor Facilities for our own Customs and Immagation. Imagine having to build room for another country to clear flight here.. It would be a mess.
 
2travel2know
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:04 pm

Quoting Jetsetsteve (Reply 19):
I know for one thing alot of U.S airports have poor Facilities for our own Customs and Immagation. Imagine having to build room for another country to clear flight here.. It would be a mess.

If it's convenient for "another country" (= Canada) and the airlines flying there to have a Port of Entry @ a U.S. Airport, and there's room on that airport, and Canada and the Airlines interested pay for that facility; What's wrong with that.
Who pays for the building and administration of those U.S. Port of Entry facilities overseas?
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cslusarc
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:05 pm

I think the theory about having US Immigration only preclearance at SNN/DUB is because the airlines like the ability to sell Duty-Free goods inflight. With US Customs preclearance (like in Canada) airlines are prevented from offering Duty-Free sales inflight.
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sflaflight
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:25 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 18):
I understand that the U.S. Virgin Island do follow U.S. Inmigration policies but when it comes to Customs, they've their own, since they're a Duty Free Zone.

True, from what I understand, territories enforce their own immigration policies all modelled on US law. From what I understand a traveller travelling to PR is supposed to have proof of citizenship on them, though PR immigration is never (rarely - I guess never say never) enforced on US bound and arriving flights, only on international flights. Apparently STT enforces the immigration checks internationally but randomly enforces them to/from the US. BTW, interestingly, I flew STT-SJU and was forced thru customs checks at SJU. Apparently SJU does not consider STT part of the US but rather it is considered an international arrival! I guess it is a matter of agreements - like Portugal being an EU Schengen country (no immigration customs) but the Madeira Islands ( a territory of Portugal in the Atlantic Ocean) needing to pass customs to enter another EU country. Same goes for the UK. No customs or immigration between EU countries except for travel between EU-UK.

Anyone else have that experience?

Adrian
 
Cory6188
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:02 pm

Here's the deal about STT - I've been through that airport enough times to finally understand the system. It is a US Territory, not a Commonwealth like Puerto Rico. As far as immigration goes, they could care less who from the US comes and goes to the Virgin Islands. When you land at STT, you can just leave the airport - no FIS facilities for arriving pax. However, they do have restrictions on the amount of stuff you can purchase in the Virgin Islands without paying duty on it, and it is for this reason that you preclear customs, not immigration, when you leave STT. There are no restrictions on what you can bring to and from Puerto Rico, so going there is like being on a domestic flight.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:21 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 16):
STT actually also has preclearance facilities, which is as bizarre as it sounds, because the US Virgin Islands are part of the United States!

STX as well.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 18):
I understand that the U.S. Virgin Island do follow U.S. Inmigration policies but when it comes to Customs, they've their own, since they're a Duty Free Zone.

They have US Customs, not something like GUM, where the Guam Government has their own Customs and Immigration along with US Customs and Immigration.
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goaliemn
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:44 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 12):
I did hear about AS or it was AC which wanted to fly YVR-BUR or YVR-SNA and had to cancel it because at last minute they found out that the airport isn't a Port of Entry (has no customs).

I was incorrect on that one.  Smile

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 15):
I'm not sure if MSP, ATL or EWR are big on Canadian flights too.

There are quite afew canuck flights out of MSP, but, like others have pointed out, I don't know how many originate from there, as oppose to transfer through. Air Canada has many flights a day from there, as does NW. I don't know how many other skyteam flights connect through there, or Star Alliance for AC.
 
yow
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 12):
Out of curiosity, Which would be the U.S. Airport with the most fights to Canada (by both U.S. and Canadian airlines) nowadays?

ORD's gotta be the city with the most flights per day to/from Canada with ORD to:

YYZ ~ 20x/day
YUL ~ 12x/day
YOW 8x/day
YWG 4x/day
YYC ~6x/day
YVR ~ 6x/day
YEG 2x/day

ORD comes in at close to 60 departures/day to Canada.

ATL, BOS, EWR, LGA, DTW, SEA, SFO, LAX & MSP are the other big transborder cities, but I don't think anything beats ORD.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 14):
Chicago because more cities are served in Canada from there whereas only YYZ and YUL get service from LGA which I would guess is the second largest.

Don't forget YOW-LGA 3x/day.
 
toltommy
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 3):
It does make one wonder how the U.S. gets pre-clearance facilities in Canada, as well as other countries, but the U.S. has never allowed Canada or other countries to set up pre-clearance facilities here.

I take it you are aware of such a request being made and denied? Care to share the details?

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 21):
With US Customs preclearance (like in Canada) airlines are prevented from offering Duty-Free sales inflight.

You were speaking specifically to flights from Ireland. That's incorrect. The DL flights I've been on offered duty free both ways. DL used round-robin flight numbers (IE: same flight # ATL-DUB-SNN-ATL). Perhaps that's how they got around it?
 
TransIsland
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:48 am

As somebody already pointed out, some Bahamian airports have preclearance, too. Many years ago, London had it... no idea if they still do. (Don't even remember if it was LGW or LHR, I just remember I was flying BA to JFK.)

Quoting Slawko (Reply 2):
I find that hard to believe. I cant imagine we signed an agreement letting them put people on our soil, and didnt make provisions to have the same in the US. The fact is, it is expensive, and unless the carriers/public want to pay for it then it wont happen.

Question is: Does it make sense for any other countries? We all know that immigration at major US airports (MIA and JFK come to mind, but also ATL. Only pleasant experience I've had was BOS.) can be a painintheyouknowwhat, so precleareance makes travelling less of a hassle for those privileged enough to then arrive in the US and be treated as a domestic flight.

Most other places I've been to (except ONCE in Turkey and ONCE in Nairobi, all my other trips they were great), immigration was a breeze. Why spend extra money to solve a problem that doesn't exist?
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2travel2know
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting YOW" class=quote target=_blank>YOW (Reply 26):
ORD's gotta be the city with the most flights per day to/from Canada with ORD to:

YYZ ~ 20x/day
YUL ~ 12x/day
YOW 8x/day
YWG 4x/day
YYC ~6x/day
YVR ~ 6x/day
YEG 2x/day

ORD comes in at close to 60 departures/day to Canada.

Are 60 daily departures to Canada worth having a Canadian Port-of-Entry @ ORD?
If that kind of traffic is worth it, Where in ORD is there room for such a facility?
And, Would those U.S. and Canadian airlines flying ORD-Canada like the idea of departing (but not really checking-in) their Canada bound flights from an specific terminal area @ ORD?
I'm not worried about seeing such a facility in U.S. soil, there's something called "reciprocity", It would be logical that after Canada allowed so many U.S. Port-of-Entry facilities @ their airports, the U.S. government would allow at least one in a U.S. airport.
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N1120A
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 3):
It would be difficult, because at any given airport, flights to Canada often leave from various locations. At ORD, UA flights leave from Terminal 1, AC flights leave from Terminal 2, and AA flights leave from Terminal 3.



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 7):
Well at any Canadian airport with U.S. Preclearance, all U.S. bound flights (except CX YVR-JFK) depart from the same area.

Actually, you are wrong there. YYZ has preclearence in both T2 and T3 (probably T1 as well).

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 12):
Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 11):
Air Canada, I believe, ran into that when they wanted to fly to San Diego. There was no customs there, so they ended up landing somewhere else with customs, then continuing onto San Diego.

I understand SAN is a U.S. Port of Entry airport, which means that the do have Inmigration and Customs facility (Mexican airlines fly/flew into SAN), so a preclared flight from Canada shouldn't have any problems there. I did hear about AS or it was AC which wanted to fly YVR-BUR or YVR-SNA and had to cancel it because at last minute they found out that the airport isn't a Port of Entry (has no customs).

It was SNA, not SAN and it was AS that launched a YVR-SNA flight.
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hz747300
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:23 am

When I lived in NY I traveled to Canada many times mostly for work, and I think that Canada actually comes out the winner in this one even without reciprocating facilities on our side.

In YUL especially, there is that American Wing, which we arrive in and depart from, which makes it super-easy to clear customs. I find I am on the street just as fast as when I don't have to clear customs coming back to the US. Which makes daytrips to see clients very possible from Canada, and it makes visiting Canada as a tourist a blast, as I never worry about long immigration lines which I face on trips home from Australia now, or when we used to vacation in Europe.

I know I am just Joe-citizen of USA, but to me, it seems silly that our two countries with so much in common do not have joint border patrol (since they don't really patrol the border between each other), customs, etc...

I don't know if the US specifically disallows it, I have not heard that. If they, it's a pity, and does not make much sense especially since Canada has adopted the nofly list too.
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ScottB
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RE: Canadian Port-of-Entry Facilities @ U.S. Airports?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:24 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 29):
I'm not worried about seeing such a facility in U.S. soil, there's something called "reciprocity", It would be logical that after Canada allowed so many U.S. Port-of-Entry facilities @ their airports, the U.S. government would allow at least one in a U.S. airport.

Perhaps, but it seems that there's no one who's interested in Canadian preclearance at a U.S. airport. In the case of ORD, for example, it would make connections far less convenient, given that (1) passengers connecting at ORD to Canada would have to re-claim bags at ORD, re-check those bags, and then re-clear security; (2) the primary hub carriers at ORD operate from different terminals, so one airline's passengers face extra inconvenience; and (3) the number of connections in Canada to airports other than the set already enjoying non-stop service from ORD really doesn't justify the cost of operating a preclearance facility in the U.S.

To some significant degree, Air Canada is probably the single largest beneficiary of U.S. preclearance being done at Canadian airports. They're able to operate to preferred airports like LGA, HPN, and DCA which aren't set up to handle scheduled international service or smaller regional airports like MHT, PVD, ABE, ALB, ROC, BDL, etc. with very limited U.S. Customs facilities. AC has very limited service to both EWR and JFK when compared to what's offered from LGA; the JFK service only exists because YYC and YVR are outside the LGA perimeter.

The Halifax International Airport was quite pleased when agreement was reached to permit U.S. preclearance at YHZ; it adds quite a bit of convenience for passengers from Halifax, especially if they want to connect at airports like BOS.

It's largely an issue of scale; transborder traffic represents just under 18% of AC's traffic (domestic Canada is just under 27%) while transborder traffic is probably in the low single digits for the U.S. carriers.