AF-A319
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Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 3:50 am

Hello!

During a press conference today, Air France's CEO Jean Cyril Spinetta said that he had indicated to the european consortium his interest in acquiring the all new very large aircraft currently under development at Airbus Industrie once it will be on offer.
Air France became the 3rd airline to annouce officialy its interest, after Emirates and Singapore Airlines.

Regards

Louis  
louisdejoux@wanadoo.fr


 
teahan
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RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 3:53 am

Great news !

Jeremiah Teahan




Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
SRA330-223
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Routes?

Wed May 31, 2000 3:57 am

I was just thinking of which routes Air France will serve with the new Airbus A3XX in future ? Have they got routes where the A3XX is demanded ?

Thanx.
 
Guest

RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 3:57 am

Whoow, Air France would be the airline with even the fastest ( Concorde ) and the largest ( A3XX ) planes in the fleet. Advantage France.  
 
avion
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RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 4:07 am

If the A3XX stays on track it be long until other airlines anounce there interest. Some of the possible customer are listed below. Do you agree on potential customers? All these airlines are also 747X targets.

Potential customers:

Europe:
BA
Lufthansa
Iberia
Swissair/Sabena

Asia:
Cathay
Ana
Jal
Air China
Air India

US:
Northwest
The mega carrier United

Australia:
Qantas

Africa:
SAA

Avion

 
cwapilot
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RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 4:08 am

Yeah....the Concorde and the A3XX...the two biggest flops in European aviation history....go Air France!

BTW....just about every airline with needs for large widebodies have expressed interest to Airbus for the A3XX...except for the world's largest airline, United, which says they are not needed...only one has seen fit to ORDER...the only one responsible to a few over-extravagant oil shieks rather than stockholders. So, does airbus want 5 or 6 airlines to ORDER to launch the program, or does it want 5 or 6 airlines to be "REALLY, REALLY INTERESTED", as opposed to just "INTERESTED" ....I assume they want firm orders, and are attempting to prime the pump with the type of "peer pressure" tactics they have been using for some time. I am sure Air India is pretty interested in the A3XX as well....does that bump it up to 6 now? Come on! We'll see what happens in July at Farnborough...
Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
Guest

RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 4:37 am

Cwapilot, the Concorde-design is in service since more than 20 years, not in that big numbers, but not as a flop since the flights are booked. The A3XX will add more numbers to Air France.
 
cwapilot
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RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 4:59 am

"Not in that big numbers" means that the number sold did not justify its development costs. That's what I mean. The aircraft itself may be great, as in the case of the A3XX, but why bankrupt a company (the A3XX costs will not level out at $12 billion, and are considerably more than the Concorde's) for novelty purposes? By the time something on the scale of the A3XX could be a good seller, Boeing and Airbus (if they haven't squandered all of their cash away on the A3XX) and maybe even newer entrants, will be developing aircraft the likes of which we have never seen before. That's where an enhanced and expanded 747 (they are not simply adding more seats to the existing 747 either...it is a much different wing and fuselage design) comes in with an advantage. Boeing received several orders for proposed 747 models, but did the cost-benefit analysis, and held off. A new 747 would fit the needs of airlines for the next 20 or more years, by which time the aircraft being developed will not much resemble those we fly on today. Again, why must everyone think in terms if today's 747? The only thing that would be the same on the 747-400 and the 747X would be the "747" designation and a superficial resemblance on the outside. The technology would not be any older than that on the A3XX. On each design, Boeing allows for growth, development and expansion well into the future. Today's 747 is no more like the 747-400 than the 747X would be like the 747-400. Maybe we could say the A3XX is nothing more than a rehash and modification of Douglas' initial plans for the DC10, which was originally envisaged as a double deck airliner with four engines to trump the 747 (again, ours is bigger than yours)...they, too, saw their folly. Hopefull Airbus does too.
Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
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sammyk
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Concorde Is A Flop!

Wed May 31, 2000 5:04 am

Oh c'mon, how can you say the Concorde is not a flop? Less that 20 aircraft were built and are in service. These aircraft do mostly charter work now, and scheduled flights are at a minimum. Do you really think the money spent to develop this aircraft was recovered in the very few airframes built? I think not.

Oh, and just because the flights are booked does not mean they are totally profitable, althought they might be for the Concorde. Anyone know what the load factors are for schedules Concorde flights?

Sammy
 
Guest

RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 5:32 am

Well, of course the Concorde is not a Best-Seller, but it has it´s very own market. Small but fine. The A3XX will be, ( my opinion ) the right answer to the growing demand of passenger´s in the near future. Boeing won´t let us wait long with it`s own solution.
 
ZRH
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RE: Cwapilot

Wed May 31, 2000 5:41 am

Cwapilot: If Boeing argued in them same way in the 1960s like you do now, the 747 would never ever have been built.
 
ual747-600
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What Some Will Do To Be Able To Order A 777X!

Wed May 31, 2000 6:15 am

Air France had no choice on this. From what I've read, the french gov't was not going to let AF order the 16 777-300ER's it wants unless it committed to A3XX. Were any quantities mentioned????

UAL747-600
 
Guest

RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 6:19 am

Air France operates 777´s already for a while, why shouldn´t they be free to order more ? What is your source UAL747-600 ?
 
Guest

RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 6:55 am

Not to contribute to another one of these tiresome A3XX 747X wars, but I thing if you are totally objective you must concede that the Concorde was a flop. All it really accomplished was some national prestige for the UK and France - the airframes actually purchased never came close to covering the development costs. The Concordes are uneconomical and inefficient, and are still operated at a loss despite the $10000 fares. BA and AF only fly them for more prestige purposes.
 
cwapilot
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RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 7:04 am

Looking at Raddog2's and UAL747-600's comments, I don't need to post what I was going to; I would just be repeating what they said. All I will add is that the A3XX is of the same ilk as the Concorde...just a little prestige for the EU at a HUGE cost to taxpayers in Europe.

Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
UA865
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RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 7:30 am


In which routes would AF utilize such a big airplane? I belive Airbus makes great planes but the EU is mounting a lot of pressure on all these state owned airlines to buy AIRBUS.
 
sf340
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RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 7:33 am

The Concorde is a great aircraft in terms of achievement but is in every business sense a flop. As for the A3XX if Airbus can get enough orders then they should go for it. But with only a few airlines expressing only interest and no signifigant orders I don't think it would be wise to invest 15 billion US dollars on a new aircraft program. If they had stockholders I'm sure they would be up in arms over going ahead on an aircraft that only has a few orders so far. I do hope tough that more airlines will look into it and consider it.
 
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sammyk
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RE: Air France Is & 777 & Ab.400

Wed May 31, 2000 7:44 am

Yes, AF operates 777s, but they were not a launch customer, and most of them were due to option conversion and cacellation of 767/737 orders. For AF to be a launch customer of the 777-300ER would be a slap in the face for rival aircraft A340-600. So, for them to get permission (yes they need it, they are still government owned and controlled) to purchase the 773ER, it seems a condition has been put in place, that being to buy the A3XX also.

Sammy
 
wingman
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RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 8:29 am

I wouldn't be surprised by gov't pressure on AF. If the US gov't owned, even partly, an airline in the US you know the pressure to buy Boeing would be equally strong.

It will certainly be an interesting year for launch orders of the A3XX and 747X. When is this FAI show anyway?
 
Guest

RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 8:39 am

I don't understand these mega aircraft. Is not the trend to go towards smaller planes with more frequencies? Aren't planes crossing the Atlantic getting smaller, 747 to 767 to 757? 737's crossing the Pacific to Hawaii? Why is the 777 so popular? I smell a pissing contest and I don't think its smart to think with your balls (especially when $12 billion is at stake).

Another point, of all the 747-400 flights, what is the % of a complete booking sell out? I am curious to know.

Also, Emirates could fill an A3XX on Haj flights, but that is only for a short time per year, not enough in my mind to justify year round use.
 
Guest

RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 10:17 am

The fares which are up today can not be keeping airlines in business forever. For my ticket from FRA to DTW on USAir I only payed 965,- DM ( about 420,- USD ) and I doubt that the Airline could make much plus with this fare. More frequence with more flight´s is probably not the way to make any profit at all, simply too much cost for AC´s maintenance, fuel, airport fees and crew. Bigger planes once a day for long-routes, linked with shuttle-service ( where you have no extra service ) will be the return to profit. This will be forced by some giants ( alliances ) in the Airline-industrie. Let it be done with either Airbus 3XX or Boeing 747X, but that will happen. My 2 Euros.
 
Guest

RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 10:25 am

Yes the prevailing trend is for more frequencies to cities avoiding major hubs. While this argument against the A3XX is an accurate one, there is clearly more to the "story" if you will. The numbers of passengers flying now is significantly higher than it was just 10 years ago. What with increased competition due to deregulation, robust world economies, and increased globilization, passengers numbers will only increase. While airlines continue to order entire air forces of new planes, very few new airports to handle this new increased traffic are being built. Boeings argument is correct, people prefer to fly around mega hubs. However, very soon, this luxury will not be afforded to the travelling public. While airlines continue to increase frequencies delays will occur more oftenly and as is occuring in SFO presently airports and governing autthorities will request that airlines releave congestion by flying fewer flights with larger planes. Hence the A3XX will be necesary. While as some have been quick to point out that the A3XX won't be profitable, that isnt stopping anything. Airbus is destined to go ahead on its project and major airlines are interested, including the competition. Boeing is beginning work on its 747x concept.

What everyone on this forum whether they be Airbus or Boeing backer should remember is that teh airlines won't let either die. Weather the A3XX is a tremendous hit and catapults AI into sound financial footing or is a dud, both Boeing and the European manufacturer will continue to coexist. Its in every airline's best interest.
 
shankly
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RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 9:21 pm

Retrospective comments re: the success or failure of certain airliners indicate a considerable level of ignorance.

Concorde was born in an age very different from that in which it eventually flew - cheap fuel and the remnants of days when countries had 'national projects'. Just check out the airline names down the side of Concorde prototypes to get a feel for the omptimism that was around in that era. I am lucky in that I see this bird at least twice a day in or out of LHR. You won't see any one looking up at a 777 or A330. Concorde still makes people stop. Appreciate it whilst it's still around. Just check out this Forum for the admiration now afforded to the CV880/990. OK, so what if they were crap (commercially), they played their part in making air transport what it is today.

The A3XX simply marks the next generation in airliner development, as did the 707, 747, A300 in their days. The fact that it is European is irrelevant. I for one can't wait to fly in one.
L1011 - P F M
 
Guest

RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Wed May 31, 2000 9:50 pm

There is an article in Newsweek, June 5, 2000 about A3XX
 
Guest

RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Thu Jun 01, 2000 12:02 am

On a lighter note, It would be interesting to see if Air-France one day flies an A3XX into Princess Julianna in St. Martin like they do with 733s. I wouldn't think it would be a regular flight, but they might do it in times of vacation peaks. I would love to see that.

Cheers! Gregg in MD
 
AF Cabin Crew
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RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Thu Jun 01, 2000 9:42 pm

Bonjour !

From what I read in the articles in the french press, our CEO, Mr J-C Spinetta has expressed AF's interest in the Mega-carrier for 10 units to fly to the USA and Japan.

Air France was the launch customer of the B777-200 IGW with GE-90 !

Air France is free to choose what aircraft suits best its network otherwise there would be NO 777 in our fleet but only A340's. Air France is very happy with its 777 and is considering seriously to buy more.

Also in those articles are an annoucement to be made for the order of 10 unspecified aircrafts. It should be released in the second semester.

Happy Flying,

AF Cabin Crew.


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rm-11
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RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Thu Jun 01, 2000 10:18 pm

Air France will use the 3XX to US, cool. It would be amazing to see this monster at ATL.
 
CX747
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AF Not

Thu Jun 01, 2000 10:54 pm

Sorry to burst your bubble AF Cabin Crew, but Air France is not free to choose whatever aircraft it deems better suited for its routes. In this particular case, Air France has to order the A3XX if it wants to be the launch customer of the 777-300ER or order 777-300ERs at all. Now, it may be true in other cases that they can order without government interference but not in this one.  
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
AFa340-300E
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AF A3XX Routes

Fri Jun 02, 2000 4:12 am

Hello,

Just one thing AF Cabin Crew, Air France was not the launch customer of the GE90-powered Boeing 777-200ER (formerly known as the IGW).

It was British Airways. However Air France launched the higher MTOW of the B-market 777.

About the Airbus A3XX: Air France will use it on NRT and JFK, two veruy important long-haul routes for the airline, where slots are restricted.

Also, a press release mentionned the "US East Coast". That is two questions for me: what US East Coast's destination?
IAD? Air France has just upgraded the A310-300 to A340-300 for this summer (the other flight is still the 777, for the second year). Next year, they'll put a second 777 on the route. I don't know exactly the size of the IAD market, but I assume it's not that big to support two daily, with one of which being an A3XX. As a reminder, CDG-IAD is the route where the A340 entered into revenue service for Air France in 1993 (a few days after Lufthansa).

BOS? Still expanding, and with 12 weekly 767-300ER for now that would be suite a dramatic expansion.

EWR? I think this has been included in the "New York section" -- even if it is not the same market as JFK. No detail has been given in the PR.

PHL? Well... There's a daily A310-300 for now... So there's still a long time to go until the market will grow enough for justifying an A3XX service.

CDG-New York seems just great for the A3XX. With the current capacities, and these forecasted for the coming years, we can assume that there will be a true requirement for the A3XX (no need for a political push so) after 2005-6 (the airline has specified it would not order the aircraft for early delivery).

Now the second question: How much will capacities decrease on LAX? I know some competition has been entering the market (daily AA 767 and daily UAL 777-200ER). The 747-400s have been partly switched to 777-200ER (maybe that's only for the freight capacity?).
And now the A3XX seems to be due to operate LAX.

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
CX747
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RE: AF A3XX Routes

Fri Jun 02, 2000 4:21 am

I don't understand how we went from Air France is INTERESTED in the A3XX to Air France has ordered the A3XX and this is what routes it will be flown on. I'm sorry but this forum continues to slide further down in credibility status.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
FlyBoeing
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RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Fri Jun 02, 2000 4:24 am

Will the A3XX have similar wake turbulence characteristics to a 747? I read somewhere that since it's so large it might actually reduce the frequencies of aircraft entering airports and thus negate its advantage.
 
Guest

RE: AF Not

Fri Jun 02, 2000 4:27 am

Can you explain the "is not free to " where did you read that, where did you find any valid article stating that in order to buy B777 AF had to commit to A3XX ??

It is one thing to base a judgement on perception, it is another one to base it on facts. Show me the article, then I believe you.

And again,as a side subject choosing Airbus makes an awful lot of US companies work too...Ask Rockwell-Collins is there are not drooling at the possibility of implementing part of the A3XX cockpit....

It is too bad to get stuck on these types of bipolar debates...


E.

 
CX747
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RE: AF Not

Fri Jun 02, 2000 4:57 am

My information comes directly from the orders web mail ring. The members in this ring are directly involved in the industry I guess you could say are "In the loop". Its also common knowledge that in order to order the 777-300ER Air France was going to have to order the A3XX. Feel free to go to the orders site forum.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
AFa340-300E
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RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Fri Jun 02, 2000 5:11 am

Hello CX747,

Air France had to make up its mind within the week, and say whether they would order the A3XX or not.

Their reply was that they'll actually order the aircraft, but for later deliveries. This has been issued in a press release (it is in French. You can find it on yahoo.fr).

Regards,
Alain Mengus
 
Delta772
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RE: Air France Is The 3rd Customer Of The A3XX!

Fri Jun 02, 2000 7:37 am

I get such a kick reading the responses on this forum. This is in regards to the Concorde and its lessons for the marketplace today. In the 60's, the Americans also had an SST project, specifically the Boeing 2707. Boeing (and the Federal government) went to great expense on the development, in a race with the consortium developing the Concorde. Finally, Boeing decided that there was just not a large enough market to justify further expenditure when there was also the 747 project that looked to offer a greater return on investment. I'm sure Congress deciding not to authorize further Federal funds for development also had something to do with it. But I'm getting off of the subject. The research that goes into these things is not the amateur stuff that we do when we sit here at our computer and try and forecast what airline will need the A3XX or the 747X and in what quantities, and on what routes. I'm pretty sure that Boeing has become somewhat   experienced in the field and have spent hours upon hours and millions of dollars on the feasibility of this huge plane. Yes, they have backtracked SOMEWHAT and may offer increased MTOW 747's. But what is the development cost of that? Is it close to the much-bandied about $20 BILLION for the A3XX? I think not. Boeing is set to offer a minimum-cost derivative that will fulfill the needs of the airlines. That's the way to make money. That's the reason that Boeing is in the business. To make money. As simple as that. If they thought they could sell 1,200 planes to justify the expenses of a completely new project over the next 20 or so years, I'm confident that would set about designing such a plane. But like 30 years ago, they see the writing on the wall. Concorde is an excellent achievement and gained prestige for the countries and companies involved. But no matter how many passengers it flies, it made no money. I don't think Boeing wants to build a plane for prestige........just my opinion.

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