A319114
Topic Author
Posts: 520
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DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:58 am

Did a quick search, but nothing came up.

I just stumbled across this photo on a flight sim forum. When did this incident occur, and how close where the two planes?

http://www.ccygnus.nl/images/nearmiss.jpg
Destruction leads to a very rough road but it also breeds creation
 
kiwiandrew

RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:05 am

Great photo , but it might not have even qualified as an incident .... it is very difficult in shots like these to tell what FL each plane is at .. they could have had 1000' vertical separation for all we know , the foreshortening affect has a way of making shots like this look more dramatic than they actually are ( I hope)
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:07 am

Camara angles can be deceiving, these planes could have been 300M (1000Ft) apart vertically at least in this picture.

[Edited 2006-01-29 20:08:16]
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
A319114
Topic Author
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RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:07 am

I figured the same, but based on the dimensions of both the A300 and the 77W, it looks like they might be very close to each other.
Destruction leads to a very rough road but it also breeds creation
 
D L X
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RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:50 am

It is interesting though that SkyNews was reporting it as a close call. Sensationalisation or truth?
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
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RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 5):
I'm curious why you think that way....? Any particular reason?

In just 2005 alone, JL's employed a safety regime that even China Airlines could criticize:
  • multiple counts of unauthorized takeoffs at CTS, ICN, and HND
  • aircraft equipment falling apart midflight only days/weeks apart
  • utilizing other aircraft parts on a 747
  • tires disengaging (not blowing out) upon touchdown
  • media reports of scheduled maintenance being found undone-but-checked-off
  • top officials turning in their resignation over admitted safety violations
  • ...and the grandmomma of them all--- a press release stating that safety wasn't their top priority, and that they're sorry for that and will try to do better!!!!
  • Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
     
    Poitin
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:53 am

    Quoting A319114 (Reply 3):
    I figured the same, but based on the dimensions of both the A300 and the 77W, it looks like they might be very close to each other.

    The A300 is way lower than it looks. I took the image into Photoshop and measured the fusilage lenghts. The JAL plane is 6.4 inchs. The DHL plane is 4.9 inches long.

    If you assume the JAL is a 773 then it is 243 feet, if a 772, then 209 feet.

    If the assume that DHL is a A300 600F, then it is 133 feet long

    That means the ratios of the two aircraft lenghts is either

    133/243 or .54 or

    133/209 or .63

    Since 777 is 6.4 inches, the A300 would have to be either

    6.4 * .54 or 3.4 inches or
    6.4 * .63 or 4.0 inches.

    Since it is 4.9 inches, it must either be a larger airplane than a A300-600F or it is lower.

    Disclaimer! I am no expert on aircraft types, so if I have the wrong models please correct me gently  Big grin
    Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
     
    nijltje
    Posts: 231
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:53 am

    that's the fun when you are landing at LHR, you can almost see somtetimes the peole in the other plane.  Smile
     
    GAWZU
    Posts: 195
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:13 am

    Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
    I took the image into Photoshop and measured the fusilage lenghts

    I like it!

    Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
    If you assume the JAL is a 773 then it is 243 feet, if a 772, then 209 feet.

    It's a 773...
     
    Horus
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:25 am

    Quoting GAWZU (Reply 8):
    Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
    If you assume the JAL is a 773 then it is 243 feet, if a 772, then 209 feet.

    It's a 773...

    I'd say its a B773ER. Look at he raked wingtips.


    View Large View Medium
    Click here for bigger photo!

    Photo © Ian Kirby



    Horus
    EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
     
    ConcordeBoy
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:26 am

    Quoting GAWZU (Reply 8):
    It's a 773...

    ...correct, seeing as the aircraft has raked winglets, and JL doesn't operate the 764ER nor anyone the 772LR.
    Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
     
    B742
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:28 am

    Quoting GAWZU (Reply 8):
    It's a 773...

    It's a 77W (777-300ER), JAL operates it on one of their 2 daily flights from NRT to LHR and back to NRT  Smile

    Rob!  wave 
     
    jbmitt
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:35 am

    Does DHL even operate into LHR? I would think the cargo companies aside from the subsidaries of passenger carries would go to other London airports. Why would the DHL flight be that close to LHR landing or arrival paths anyways?

    I have my doubts of the story.

    jbmitt
     
    BA0284
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:39 am

    Quoting Jbmitt (Reply 12):
    Does DHL even operate into LHR?

    Yeah they do, they have about 3 flights a day on a Saturday I think. I think that it isnt quite DHL, but it runs under European Air Transport. Planes are in DHL colours

    BA0284  Smile
     
    SQno1
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:49 am

    Quoting GAWZU (Reply 8):
    I like it!

    However, I certinaly no longer like the git who sold this picture to the News Of The World, caused uneccecary concern about air safety and worst of all, he/she has probably got a lot of money for this pic!

    With Regards,
    Alex.B
     
    Ratypus
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:53 am

    Are we sure the DHL plane is an A300 - looks like it could be a 737 but I don't know what DHL have in their fleet so this is just a suggestion!

    To me looks like the two planes are a fair distance apart vertically! The 777 would dwarf the other plane totally if it were a near miss...
     
    BA0284
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:55 am

    Theres just a short article on the BBC website about it. Basically confirming what we've all been saying!!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660644.stm

    Quoting Ratypus (Reply 15):
    Are we sure the DHL plane is an A300 - looks like it could be a 737

    Yeah definately an A300, DHL dont have any 737's and the A300 flies to LHR

    BA0284

    [Edited 2006-01-29 21:58:03]
     
    sean377
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:57 am

    Only the News of the World would think there was a story in this. Why anyone buys that paper (among others) is beyond me.

    While we're on the subject, would the picture have made it on A.Net had it been submitted?
    Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man... Landing is the first!
     
    GoAround
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:04 am

    Quoting Sean377 (Reply 17):
    Only the News of the World would think there was a story in this. Why anyone buys that paper (among others) is beyond me.

    *cough* http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660644.stm *cough*

    Interesting story. Though probably not much in it. Good pic though!
    GoAround
     
    MKEdude
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:09 am

    As Concordeboy brought up 2005 was not a good year safety-wise for JAL. It is my understanding that their image in Japan was severely tarnished, and due to fewer bookings JAL had to trim back some international flights.

    Even though this was not an incident, and according to reports the planes were always a safe distance from each other...a picture is worth a thousand words, and this will cause further problems for JAL.
    "You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
     
    ConcordeBoy
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:12 am

    Quoting MKEdude (Reply 19):
    As Concordeboy brought up 2005 was not a good year safety-wise for JAL

    well, it wasn't a cautious one... but I'd say it was a damn "good" year for them, since they very well could've killed a few hundred people in any one of those incidents. Fortune was strongly on their side.
    Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
     
    SQno1
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:32 am

    To clarify, it was infact the Sunday Mirror that the photograph was sold to, apologies.

    With Regards,
    Alex.B
     
    gritzngravee
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:10 am

    Photographs are two dimensional, if this photo was taken and sold to a media outlet there is no one to blame but the media outlet. Bu tlike many of you have stated the media loves to make something out of nothing.

    Pilot error does occur and in a city like London (LHR, GTW, STD, LNC, LUT) I'm sure there are close calls everyday just like in the NYC area(JFK, LGA, EWR, ISP and Westchester).

    I noticed when looking at most apporach photos at SFO every shot looks like a close call but that's because there is no depth perception. Just like the London photo, you cannot tell how far or close you are to something when the background is the atmosphere, there are no shadows to measure or any clouds showing a refelction therefore zooming in makes it look like an extremely close call.

    Just do a photo search of SFO and you will see almost all of the parallel approaches look like possible collisions.
     
    gritzngravee
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:22 am

    I also forgot to mention the major issue concerning near misses of planes departing and approaching TEB and EWR. I live in North Jersey and all traffic departing LGA heading West, South or Northwest intersects JFK approaches from the west. At the same time if EWR are landing the 22's that means TEB traffic is also landing heading South. My window in my room looks directly South so I see TEB and EWR traffic converging and it always looks like close calls. But the human eye cannot zoom in and out like birds therefore we see things equally so to speak. But there have been numerous stories published in area papers about TEB traffic completely ignoring EWR approaching traffic, even ignoring commands to climb at a certain rate per minute(fines have been handed down to many private planes at TEB). Also many ATC's have complained about lack of man power at peak departure and arrivals at the NYC airports and it will probably take a collision to right the problem I hope that doersn't happen. There was a close call of about 300 feet or less when a plane was cleared to land the crosswind runway at EWR and a plane departing TEB was completely left in the blind (ATC too busy to see the potential danger, guiding other planes). Not to say this is what happened in London but you never know.
     
    centrair
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:53 am

    You know...if JL was involved, I would not be surprised if it were actually true.

    They just got a 2nd strike against them from the Ministry of Transportation for an incident on a 747 on NRT-TPE where a FA did not arm a door because "she didn't know how it worked". They have had multiple safety issues in the past couple months that are just based on stupidity and undereducated staff.

    If this actually happened, the Japanese government will count it as strike 3 and they will be forced to suspend operations till they sort out their safety issues.
    Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
     
    drakey
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:54 am

    This is total media sensationalism. The two aircraft were both in the Lambourne hold for Heathrow and were vertically separated by 1000 feet. No pilot error, no ATC error, an absolutely standard scenario, and completely safe.

    I just hope the photographer enjoys the money he earned from one of the worst newspapers in the UK (and thats saying something!)

    D.  banghead 
     
    pogo
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:13 am

    Quoting Jbmitt (Reply 12):
    Does DHL even operate into LHR?

    As BA0284 said yes they do, they also fly B757's in to LHR. They have a designated cargo shed and as well as dealing with the loads of there own aircraft they also deliver and collect at the aircraft side of many different airlines, eg. RB and MU.
    When in doubt give it a clout
     
    echster
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:40 am

    Just my 2 cents, but I find it unlikely aircraft equipped with TCAS would both order a left hand turn.
     
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    Jetlagged
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:23 am

    Quoting Echster (Reply 27):
    Just my 2 cents, but I find it unlikely aircraft equipped with TCAS would both order a left hand turn.

    TCAS only provides vertical resolutions, so can't order a turn in either direction. Certainly each aircraft would be on the other's TCAS display as proximate traffic at the very least.
    The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
     
    727forever
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:33 am

    The EAT airbus in this photo is in fact an A300-b4-200.

    727forever
    727forever
     
    AirTranTUS
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:23 pm

    Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
    If the assume that DHL is a A300 600F, then it is 133 feet long

    If the DHL plane is an A300B4, its length is 175ft. An A300-600 would be even longer.
    Some quick math yields:

    175/243 or .72

    6.4 * .72 = 4.6 inches

    4.6 inches is much closer to the 4.9 you measured. Maybe someone can find a vertical distance from the .3 inch difference. Hope this helps some more.
    I love ASO!
     
    aircanada014
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:38 pm

    Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
    If the assume that DHL is a A300 600F, then it is 133 feet long

    It is A300-600F but the length is 177ft not 133ft
     
    727forever
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:51 pm

    Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 31):
    It is A300-600F but the length is 177ft not 133ft

    Of all possible DHL vendors, the following is true of their A300 fleets:
    1. EAT has only A300b4-203Fs
    2. Swift Air has only A300b4-200Fs
    3. Astar has only A300b4-200Fs

    4. Air Hong Kong does have 8 A300b4-600Fs.

    It is possible that Air Hong Kong some how ended up at LHR, albeit making 4 fuel stops and taking 2 days to get there (must be some really important freight), but I think that it is more likely that it is either an EAT or a Swift Air b4-200. Oh wait, one more detail. Look at the wing tips. The -600 has fences on the wingtips. I don't see any fences in this photo so that can only make it a b4-200.

    There will be a little bit of parallax to take into account since the A300s nose is at a higher attitude which will make it appear shorter. That being said, I would have to agree that this airplane is at a safe altitude lower that the 77W.

    727forever
    727forever
     
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    LTU932
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:46 pm

    If the plane was really that close to the JL 77W, you can rest assured that TCAS would have alerted them in advance. However, if the TCAS wouldn't work, then the wake turbulence would have affected the A300 and this would have ended in disaster.

    So basically, this is pure media hype.

    Quoting 727forever (Reply 32):
    The -600 has fences on the wingtips. I don't see any fences in this photo so that can only make it a b4-200.

    I believe not all A300B4-600 have wingtip fences. I recall they became standard on all AB6 some time after EIS. However, if you take a closer look at the engine, you can clearly see it's not an A300B4-600, because those engines are CF6-50, not CF6-80. It's very evident by just looking at the smooth transition from cowling to exhaust cone and a much narrower end of the exhaust cone where you can see a rather small engine spike.
     
    leigh pilgrim
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:00 pm

    I wondered how long it would be before this was on the net.

    Just read it in the daily mail, apparently a football fan took the picture near West Ham, as they flew over, all the crowed were a bit shocked!!!, however a spokes person for NATS has confirmed that both aircraft were at a safe distance, it is the illusion of the naked eye and the camera shot that make it look bad

    my impression is that the 777-300ER is 'massive' in comparission to the A300-B4 freighter, yet in this pic., the 777 is only slightly bigger, so I would say that to the public on the ground, it was looking up at the wrong time!!!
     
    henny
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:39 pm

    This is nonsense, shame on Sky - those two planes are simply in left end of the LAM hold at LHR, 1000ft apart - it's only because it's a clear day and people could actually SEE the hold itself that Sky grabbed it for its "shock" value.

    Those two aircraft are within the LHR MSA, the 773 being MSA+3 and the A300-B4F MSA+2 respectively.

    Nothing is wrong with it, at all.
    3, 2, 1... Now!
     
    UAL777UK
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:45 pm

    Quoting Drakey (Reply 25):
    This is total media sensationalism. The two aircraft were both in the Lambourne hold for Heathrow and were vertically separated by 1000 feet. No pilot error, no ATC error, an absolutely standard scenario, and completely safe.

    I just hope the photographer enjoys the money he earned from one of the worst newspapers in the UK (and thats saying something!)

    Well said!
     
    Candid76
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:14 pm

    According to the BBC article the JAL aircraft was an A330. That's a massive breakthrough for Airbus!
     
    carledwards
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:18 pm

    The JAL 777-300 in question is JA733J, pictured below:


    View Large View Medium
    Click here for bigger photo!

    Photo © Tamon Takeoka



    I dont know what the DHL A300 is as of yet.
    Directoria
     
    EddieGunsmoke
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:30 pm

    From Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet: "The DHL plane was an A300 which is a small freighter aircraft, and the passanger plane was a JAL A330, a much bigger plane"    



    [Edited 2006-01-30 15:32:00]
     
    GBOAB
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:34 pm

    This is the DHL aircraft which I photographed on Saturday
    the registration is OO-DLU Airbus A300B4

    and no it wasn't me that submitted the photo

    Cheers

    Ian
    Concorde's gone but not forgotten
     
    bennett123
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:41 pm

    This picture was on P1 of the Daily Mail today.

    However if you read P3, they suggest that the aircraft are not as close as they look.

    For my money the A300 is several thousand feet lower.
     
    KJFK31L
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:05 am

    "While the lower plane was a A300, a smaller freight plane, the one behind was a JAL A330 - a larger, passenger plane."

    Not a A330 and obviously not "behind it"-- thank you BBC. It seems that so many news-stations (in the US mainly) do not get mcuh correct when it comes to aircraft emergencies or commentary.

    Whew--

    Matt
    If it's not Boeing, I'm not going.
     
    vr-hkg
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:08 am

    Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
    The A300 is way lower than it looks. I took the image into Photoshop and measured the fusilage lenghts. The JAL plane is 6.4 inchs. The DHL plane is 4.9 inches long.

    Ah, Photoshop - you have to love it for its stupidity. Digital photographs don't have dimensions in "inches" unless you assume (as Photoshop does) that a pixel is always some arbitrary size. That assumption is a dumb one to make, because it depends completely on the resolution of your output media, and how far away it is to be viewed from.

    [/Rant off]
     
    leigh pilgrim
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:10 am

    Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 41):
    This picture was on P1 of the Daily Mail today.

    However if you read P3, they suggest that the aircraft are not as close as they look.

    For my money the A300 is several thousand feet lower

    Thats where I saw the report, the smaller pic looks worse, the bigger pic actually if looked at closely, does give the impression of 'Not close at all'

    To the top photographer who took the below pic, you could ern a few quid by send this to the paper!!, you will really scare the 'pants' off the public


    View Large View Medium
    Click here for bigger photo!

    Photo © Axel Fabeck

     
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    HAWK21M
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:16 am

    The Pic in post #1 can give a wrong Impression to the Public.
    Photoshopped I would think.

    What happened to TCAS.Did it warn them.
    regds
    MEL
    I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
     
    KJFK31L
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:18 am

    Quoting Vr-hkg (Reply 43):
    Ah, Photoshop - you have to love it for its stupidity. Digital photographs don't have dimensions in "inches" unless you assume (as Photoshop does) that a pixel is always some arbitrary size. That assumption is a dumb one to make, because it depends completely on the resolution of your output media, and how far away it is to be viewed from.

    Photoshop may assume an arbitray size for pixels in a given image, but this size is rendered constant in a given image. Thus measuring the size of one aircraft with respect to the other would not be an incorrect assumption. Perhaps saying, this is 6 inches, this is 4 may not be the best way to go abou the process. But assuming a unit measurment, this could be done. Set the size of the DHL A300-600F as 1 unit and then take it from there.

    Relative motion and sizes should hold when kept constant in one image, no?

    Matt
    If it's not Boeing, I'm not going.
     
    Lurch
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:18 am

    If those two machines had been that close together on the same flight level their TCAS system would have been going APE as it is fitted to both of those machines and the system would be Screaming its head of at the pilots!

    The twinn trail photo would freak Joe public rite out of his shorts!  gasp   alert   old 
     
    luisca
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    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:47 am

    Quote:
    While the lower plane was a A300, a smaller freight plane, the one behind was a JAL A330 - a larger, passenger plane.

    No wonder Airbus sold more than Boeing in 2005.

    As if subsidies were not enough, now they are stealing planes from Boeing.
    If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
     
    corey07850
    Posts: 2335
    Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:33 am

    RE: DHL, JAL Near Miss (or Near Hit) @ LHR

    Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:58 am

    Quoting Gritzngravee (Reply 23):
    My window in my room looks directly South so I see TEB and EWR traffic converging and it always looks like close calls.



    If EWR is using the 22's, TEB will be using the VOR/DME A to runway 19 or 24 (19 if ILS is needed)... Therefore as aircraft passover the TEB VOR for EWR they pass overhead, usually to the west a bit, at 3,000'. TEB traffic is circling the field at 1500'---plenty of space. Not to mention that both aircraft are under ATC control as well as most having TCAS.

    Quoting Gritzngravee (Reply 23):
    But there have been numerous stories published in area papers about TEB traffic completely ignoring EWR approaching traffic, even ignoring commands to climb at a certain rate per minute(fines have been handed down to many private planes at TEB).

    Never heard any of this... TEB traffic has no reason to pay attention to EWR approaching traffic. Why would TEB traffic need to climb to avoid traffic that is passing overhead? I agree that fines have been paid, but for noise reasons, not for disobeying ATC.

    Quoting Gritzngravee (Reply 23):
    There was a close call of about 300 feet or less when a plane was cleared to land the crosswind runway at EWR and a plane departing TEB was completely left in the blind (ATC too busy to see the potential danger, guiding other planes).

    I can see this happening if the aircraft departed TEB off the Dalton 19 Departure which is essentially a VFR-to-IFR clearance where the planes must have visual reference to EWR traffic... However ATC will always alert departing traffic of any EWR approaches before the plane is handed off to departure

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