FlyMKG
Topic Author
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UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:09 pm

In my Airline Administration class tonight we had a guy that works for UA at MSP come and speak to us. He mentioned the following rumors:

1. UA & CO to merge. He said he doesn't think this will happen because its a little too far fetched and fleet commonality issues.

2. In the next 5-10 years United will have PTVs in all planes.

3. If the bankruptcy judge voids the NW pilot's contract, NW will be forced to declare Chapter 7 and liquidate. He said NW is such a mess right now in all aspects that there is no way they could handle a pilot strike.

He also mentioned some fun facts:

1. UA doesn't like the 744 and would much rather fly the 772 on long routes.

2. UA pays 122 million dollars a year for legal fees under bankruptcy. It is were all their profits go.

3. UA paid US 100 million dollars when the merger fell through as a good faith move.

4. Outsourcing the maintenance has hidden costs. He gave the example that for every 10 million they pay to have outsourcing do the maintenance work, UA must pay 1-2 million to correct the mistakes made in the original work.

5. The latest you are allowed to check in is now 30 minutes before departure time. This is up from 20 minutes.

What are your thoughts?

FlyMKG

[Edited 2006-01-31 04:10:03]
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desiguy2447
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:19 pm

Yes, NWA is a big mess, and if a strike happens around Feb 16th NWA will close down for good. I highly doubt a strike is going to occur because in this case everyone at NWA will be out of a job. I see a deal with the pilots being reached in the 9th hour.
 
centrair
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:26 pm

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):

2. In the next 5-10 years United will have PTVs in all planes.

3. If the bankruptcy judge voids the NW pilot's contract, NW will be forced to declare Chapter 7 and liquidate. He said NW is such a mess right now in all aspects that there is no way they could handle a pilot strike.

These two caught my attention
#2...that will be very nice.

#3 it is something we know, but wonder what would happen if it were to go CH7. Would UA take up some of it?

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
1. UA doesn't like the 744 and would much rather fly the 772 on long routes.

That is a surprise. No mention of 773s possibly coming in as replacements? (we know it won't happen but sure would be nice).

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
4. Outsourcing the maintenance has hidden costs. He gave the example that for every 10 million they pay to have outsourcing do the maintenance work, UA must pay 1-2 million to correct the mistakes made in the original work.

So why the heck are airlines doing it?
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
N908AW
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:37 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
So why the heck are airlines doing it?

Seems quite illogical, but then again, so does driving 100 miles to catch a slightly cheaper flight. Some people don't notice the equal amount of money flying out of their pocket.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
MLIGRBZW825
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:38 pm

The Airlines are outsourcing work because they hate the unions that representing them. They're basically saying we'll pay extra because your not union, and we won't have the deal with the unions.
'I'm too close for missiles, I'm switching to guns' -Iceman
 
twolz2rn
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:52 pm

So what would happen IF NW were to liquidate? Would i be S.O.L. with my trip in March (to CDG)? or could i re-book with another airline?
 
AirRyan
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:12 pm

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
3. If the bankruptcy judge voids the NW pilot's contract, NW will be forced to declare Chapter 7 and liquidate. He said NW is such a mess right now in all aspects that there is no way they could handle a pilot strike.

Management is the one with the short straw this time...

Quoting Desiguy2447 (Reply 1):
I highly doubt a strike is going to occur because in this case everyone at NWA will be out of a job. I see a deal with the pilots being reached in the 9th hour.

I do as well but then again, I wouldn't call the pilot's bluff because just like the current DL pilots they are prepared and ready to walk... And let's just say I wouldn't put it past NW management to let their ego's get in their way and call the pilot's bluff in hopes of some sort of legal loop-hole forcing the pilots to accept that of what they do not want.

Quoting TwoLz2Rn (Reply 5):
So what would happen IF NW were to liquidate? Would i be S.O.L. with my trip in March (to CDG)? or could i re-book with another airline?

Other carriers by federal law would accomodate via standby for something like $50, and I'm sure codeshare partners like CO and DL would pitch in, but then again if NW pilots walk so too might the DL pilots unless DL drastically upped what NW management wasn't willing to.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:18 pm

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
In my Airline Administration class tonight we had a guy that works for UA at MSP come and speak to us. He mentioned the following rumors:

And his credentials are what? A gate agent, a station manager?

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
3. If the bankruptcy judge voids the NW pilot's contract, NW will be forced to declare Chapter 7 and liquidate. He said NW is such a mess right now in all aspects that there is no way they could handle a pilot strike

While NW hasn't planned for a pilot or flight attendant strike, we still are most likely in better "long-term" shape than any other legacy carrier, including UA. We have less LCC competitiion than any other carrier. Our network is so much more simplified than most other carriers. And our hbs are much mre efficienly operating with minimal congestion in the summer months. Once the labour issue is settled, (and it will be without a strike) NW will be a better solvent than it was before 9/11. Our temporary paycuts that we (the FA's) took, right now are lower than UA's, and those are with only a quarter of the cuts that NW is seeking. UA is exactly the opposite, they're still losing a staggering amount of money, and spending alike there's no tomorrow. Their operation is still expensive and very complicated. They're under assault at most of it's major hubs with LCC competition. And with F9 and WN at DEN, leaves much to be concerned with.

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
2. UA pays 122 million dollars a year for legal fees under bankruptcy. It is were all their profits go.

Well he might want to read about 182 million dollar "operating" loss for the last quarter.

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts?

Not much. I think this guy is filling your minds with innacurate and uninformed information about the competition, and is glossing over the truth about the real numbers for UA
Made from jets!
 
ChicagoFlyer
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:43 pm

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
5. The latest you are allowed to check in is now 30 minutes before departure time. This is up from 20 minutes.

This one is true. I heard it from my UA contacts as well. Apparently customers are getting sick and tired waiting to get upgrades, so it'll be faster for them due to less waiting... and for those nonrevs on the standby list, too!
 
Capt.Fantastic
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:45 pm

He works for UA at MSP ... so, I assume he's not a key executive: btw, what is his position? ... Baggage Handler?

I think most of what you heard was conjecture, nothing more.
 
N501US
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:57 pm

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
He said NW is such a mess right now in all aspects that there is no way they could handle a pilot strike.

Like DL, CO, UA, AA, etc etc could successfully handle a pilot strike?
Fools and thieves are well disguised in the temple and the marketplace.....
 
LawnDart
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:01 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 7):
we still are most likely in better "long-term" shape than any other legacy carrier, including UA.

Okay, I've picked myself up off the floor...

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 7):
We have less LCC competitiion than any other carrier.

WN could start MSP service tomorrow (it would probably be a killer market for them, as the fares are high in comparison to other similarly-sized hubs; one of the prerequisites for them entering a city)...they're in DTW, and NK and FL have eyes on DTW as well...MEM, well...who the hell wants to fly to MEM anyway.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 7):
Our network is so much more simplified than most other carriers.

Huh? You have hubs in MoTown, SnowTown and NoTown, virtually no presence in the Northeast, California, Texas or Florida (the big domestic regions for current passenger counts and/or growth), a European operation that relies heavily on a partner that is owned by someone else, and where your bid for ATI was preliminarily ruled against (and subsequently withdrawn), and no presence in Latin America. Truly simple.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 7):
And our hbs are much mre efficienly operating with minimal congestion in the summer months.

But two of them are a real bitch in the winter...which in MSP lasts 10 months...

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 7):
Once the labour issue is settled, (and it will be without a strike)

NW has had some of the most contentious "labor issues" in the industry for years...

Seriously, I wish NW all the best, but they are far from being in better shape than anyone, long or short-term. Labor issues are just the beginning. Hubs in MSP and MEM that would not be missed by anyone if they were gone tomorrow. Traffic from the hub in DTW could just as easily be accommodated by AA and UA in ORD, DL in CVG, WN in MDW and without barely a blip in those airlines' load factor.

Don't even get me started on the DC9s, which eventually will need to be replaced...

The Pacific operation is the one crown jewel...
 
DLKAPA
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:05 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
That is a surprise. No mention of 773s possibly coming in as replacements? (we know it won't happen but sure would be nice).

I wouldn't write that one off just yet, with the 773ER making a good run, UA might just be studying that as a viable option.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Cubsrule
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:08 pm

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 11):
But two of them are a real bitch in the winter...which in MSP lasts 10 months...

DTW and MSP both operate better in the winter than ORD, CLE, EWR, BOS, LGA, JFK, PHL, or PIT (in its heydey).
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StevenUhl777
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:25 pm

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
UA paid US 100 million dollars when the merger fell through as a good faith move.

That's all? It wasn't a "good faith" move, either...they contractually liable to pay US a breakup fee. I was under the impression it was closer to $200 million, but $500 milllon sticks in my mind, too.

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
Outsourcing the maintenance has hidden costs. He gave the example that for every 10 million they pay to have outsourcing do the maintenance work, UA must pay 1-2 million to correct the mistakes made in the original work.



Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):



Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
So why the heck are airlines doing it?

I wish they wouldn't do it, plain and simple. But, the reason is plain and simple economics. Even with 10-20% unplanned costs, UA still is ahead of the game having the contractors do it. My dad was a mechanic for 35 years and made a very nice wage for a HUGE responsibility...now some clown overseas does it for a fraction of the price so the public can have a dirt cheap fare.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 7):
Not much. I think this guy is filling your minds with innacurate and uninformed information about the competition, and is glossing over the truth about the real numbers for UA



Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 9):
I think most of what you heard was conjecture, nothing more.

 checkmark Yep...well said. I'd also like to know what his title is in MSP. For all you/we know, he heard all this from another unreliable source. 99% of rumors are lies, and the other 1% is the truth, but the chances of you hearing that 1% is slim and none, and slim just left town.
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alexinwa
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:45 pm

OK I am no executive and in fact I dont even work in the airline industry, just a hobby for me.........that said,.......I Don't feel bad for any of our "legacy" carriers that are in trouble.

9/11, as awful and shocking as it was, it may of been just the excuse or shot in the mouth the airlines needed, whichever way you look at it.

I find it stunning that in the wake of 9/11 WN still makes a profit. Tell me all about the high costs of the other airlines, the high fuel, the bad this and that. But how is it that B6 and WN (others as well)can maintain profits, buy NEW airplanes, expand, and have the long-term employees that they have?

United is the worst as far as I'm concerned. And it is not the main employees fault. It's not the gate agent, (they didn't decide to give the "business" traveler what they wanted when they offered 12 to 16 daily non-stop flights between SEA-ORD/DEN/SFO) or the F/A's (who had the joy of working half empty flights in the summer), or the Pilot (whom had to be wondering what more he/she could do to stay awake while sitting in the heat at ORD 22nd in line to take-off), or the baggage handler. All of whom have had to eat the S*** that upper management has thrown at them.

NW, DL, CO, AA, and UA have done MOST of this to themselves. The worst part is, the ones who built these airlines pay the price. While the brass leave with million dollar bonuses.

Just the thought of NW's brass letting a strike happen is reason for them to all stand within the intake of a 773 as it takes off.

I hope that no more airlines go the route of PanAm or Eastern. Some however, I think brought it upon themselves more than others. All are guilty as far as I'm concerned.
You mad Bro???
 
xstro
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:13 pm

This makes me laugh. You have everyone saying who needs NW and they are done.

For starters they (other than bankrupt UA) own most of Asia from the US and are a significant player in Europe with the ties to KLM.

Who really thinks the pilots will walk? I don't. Should I (if I were a pilot) vote myself out of a job because the union thinks I should. Sure, some pilots could get a job a Wal-Mart as a greeter and earn about the same but what is that percent? 3%?

I personally belive that the pilots, flight attendants, and ground workers have no where to turn. If one strikes, all are done.

Once all of the dust has settled NW will be one of the strongest domestic and international carriers. The employees will benefit from major gains in stock and the labor strife will be history.

Time will tell and I put all my chips on NW and the employees working this out.

Four months ago half of all A netters said UA was dead and how many 747's would NW pick up. Dont believe me? Do a search.

Have a drink on me.
 
centrair
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:24 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):
DTW and MSP both operate better in the winter than ORD, CLE, EWR, BOS, LGA, JFK, PHL, or PIT (in its heydey).

Totally. They know how to handle the weather. And...you don't have to go outside when you change planes do you? Even the regionals have gates now.

I hadn't been through MSP in several years, but this last winter went through there and was extremely impressed. It is much better than DTW (service wise).

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 11):
Huh? You have hubs in MoTown, SnowTown and NoTown, virtually no presence in the Northeast, California, Texas or Florida (the big domestic regions for current passenger counts and/or growth), a European operation that relies heavily on a partner that is owned by someone else, and where your bid for ATI was preliminarily ruled against (and subsequently withdrawn), and no presence in Latin America. Truly simple.

Well you don't need to go to every corner to have a good network. NW has CO and DL to cover some of those areas use codeshares in others. But you know DL has a great Latin and European market but no Asian Market and no Midwest market. CO goes many places but still uses NW for many codeshares in Asia. NW is critical for the upper midwest economy which has massive ties to Asia (ie, ginseng & wood trade). UA and AA have pulled out of these markets leaving NW the only carrier to offer inline small midwestern station to global destination.

It sounds like you don't like the NW/KL relationship and feel that NW should break away from KL/AF and only fly its own metal competing in a market that is already getting heavily flooded by other European carriers and U.S. carriers. Why should they enter it, if they can use long established carriers to do the job for them and still profit from it.

I personally think and hope that NW will recover from this mess in pretty good shape. It is gonna be rough, but if NW were to go Chapter 7, not only MSP and DTW but many upper midwest and plain states as well would be in economic trouble.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
aviatortj
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:39 pm

Lots of NW and MSP stuff in here, but I'll jump at this one.

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
1. UA doesn't like the 744 and would much rather fly the 772 on long routes.

I heard the exact opposite. The lease rates on the 744s are many times better than that of the 777, which is just one of the things contributing to a lower operation cost. Also, if UA decides to go shopping, don't expect them to buy one product just cause they have some already.
 
londonlady71
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:05 pm

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
5. The latest you are allowed to check in is now 30 minutes before departure time. This is up from 20 minutes



can no one do this out of heathrow please, you wouldnt have even reached the start of the secruity queue by then!
 
krisyyz
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
UA & CO to merge. He said he doesn't think this will happen because its a little too far fetched and fleet commonality issues

Besides the fact that UA is more of a PW fan and CO is more GE, they have a lot of types in common. B777/767/757/737, UA could get rid of its A320s and buy B737NGs and they would basically have the same mainline fleet, minus the engine types.

They would also have a strong eastern presences with Newark and ORD.

I doubt this would ever happen. I really doubt that any airline would dump the A32X.

Krisyyz
 
bobnwa
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:42 pm

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
In my Airline Administration class tonight we had a guy that works for UA at MSP come and speak to us. He mentioned the following rumors

UA does not have any employees in the MSP area that would have knowledge about the plans of UA let alone NW. What are his qualifications?
 
Braniff727
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:53 pm

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
3. If the bankruptcy judge voids the NW pilot's contract, NW will be forced to declare Chapter 7 and liquidate. He said NW is such a mess right now in all aspects that there is no way they could handle a pilot strike.


Thanks for the laugh!

This is like saying, I work for the University of Michigan, and I have great personal insight into jetBlue, and I know that they are planning a MAJOR order of 787's next month. They are looking at 90-115 of them.

I don't understand how anyone can take at face value anything one person employed at one company about another.

Does he know the "mess" at NW? Does he know what NW is planning on doing? If yes, someone needs to look at security at NW since these rogue UAL people seem to keep getting into their board rooms!

[Edited 2006-01-31 15:55:04]
Climbing
 
ehho
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
UA doesn't like the 744 and would much rather fly the 772 on long routes.

If true, another potential 748 customer going down the drain...  cry 
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
An-225
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:27 am

While UA 744s will eventually be replaced, I doubt it'll be by 772s. 744 is an integral part of United's network. What else can you send to Asia and Australia?

Alex.
Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
 
ehho
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting An-225 (Reply 24):
What else can you send to Asia and Australia?

Asia should be no problem actually, seeing how well AA, KE, NH and the like cope with 772 on Asia-US routes. Australia is more problematic though, indeed, with ETOPS issues coming to mind. BTW, does UA have 744ERs, or only standard ones? If so, they're probably well below their MTOW on LAX-SYD runs?
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
ual777
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
That is a surprise. No mention of 773s possibly coming in as replacements? (we know it won't happen but sure would be nice).

I was in ORD ops in 2000, and was talking with the 777 chief pilot. He said UA was looking HARD at the now 773ER and the 772LR. However, we all know what happened and that was shelved.

Quoting Xstro (Reply 16):
Who really thinks the pilots will walk? I don't. Should I (if I were a pilot) vote myself out of a job because the union thinks I should. Sure, some pilots could get a job a Wal-Mart as a greeter and earn about the same but what is that percent? 3%?

You obviously haven't been to some NWA message boards. A lot of pilots are wanting to get out of aviation all together because they are sick of the industry. In addition the percent making less than a Wal-Mart greeter is kind of like this:

MOST Flight instructers
guys flying part 135 cargo at night in Mu-2s and the like.
First year Mesa FOs.
A few other regionals I can't remember.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
YANQUI67
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:59 am

Quoting MLIGRBZW825 (Reply 4):
The Airlines are outsourcing work because they hate the unions that representing them. They're basically saying we'll pay extra because your not union, and we won't have the deal with the unions.

This is so funny, I almost forgot but, I thought that Delta AMTs are not unionized, and they are still getiing $hitcanned. Union or not. Find another raeson pal.
 
FlyMKG
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:07 am

The guy was a baggage handler who is set to move up into a low level desk job at MSP. He said that information about NW was based on first hand accounts of talking with their people at MSP. He also mentioned something about escorting or helping UA mechanics find parts in the NW parts facility for UA A320s. This is because UA has done hardly any maintenance work on their own A320s and therefore has few parts and is less knowledgeable that their NW counterparts. I stated these were rumors only. Take them with a grain of salt if you choose. Everybody needs to just chill out.

FlyMKG
Essential Power, Operating Generator.
 
airbazar
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
5. The latest you are allowed to check in is now 30 minutes before departure time. This is up from 20 minutes.

It's irrelevant. I arrive 2 hours before the flight but they only have 2 checking agents at work. By the time I get to the front of the line, it's 15 minutes before the flight. They can put up any number they want, but until they start employing more checking agents the number won't mean a thing. And that goes to just about every airline in the US.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
UA & NW Rumor Mill

FlyMKG, this is the most brilliant thread title ever!!!!!
When I doubt... go running!
 
UAL777UK
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 21):
UA does not have any employees in the MSP area that would have knowledge about the plans of UA let alone NW. What are his qualifications?

Exactly...If this guy is so clued up, why is he not at UA's WHQ pulling all the shots...this is bull...sorry!
 
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jetjack74
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:13 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 11):
Okay, I've picked myself up off the floor...

And you can put it back in your pants, too.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 11):
WN could start MSP service tomorrow (it would probably be a killer market for them, as the fares are high in comparison to other similarly-sized hubs; one of the prerequisites for them entering a city)...they're in DTW, and NK and FL have eyes on DTW as well...MEM, well...who the hell wants to fly to MEM anyway.

WN stated before that it is unlikely that they'll start service to MSP anytime soon, becuase of the high operating costs. TZ pulled out 6 months ago on the MDW-MSP route 6 months ago due to the fact that they were losing millions on it. FL stepped in 2 months later, and it remains to be seen how it's going to work out.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 11):
Huh? You have hubs in MoTown, SnowTown and NoTown, virtually no presence in the Northeast, California, Texas or Florida (the big domestic regions for current passenger counts and/or growth),

Yes Lawndart, another reason you're completely inept on any understanding of strategy. DTW and MSP are on 2 sides of ORD, taking potential business away from UA/AA. The location of these 2 hubs makes it very attractive connecting passengers who want to avoid the hassle of sludging through ORD having to change terminals walk a up and down finger style concourses at ORD. DTW is sooooo much simpler, and with the improvments done to MSP, it's gotten much more easier navigate. O'Hare is still a zoo, no matter how much you sugercoat it. Plus, lets look at the complexity issues of both carriers' hub locations. UA: SFO, LAX, DEN, ORD, JFK(not really a hub but more of a ramped up gateway), and IAD. You have 3 on the west regional/coast, 2 east coast, and one right in the middle. Now tell me that isn't complicated? The hubs are sending flights to the east coast as well as having to feed middle, some flights are going with empty seats that could potentially be filled otherwise. 3 of those hubs are costly to operate from. And look a these other issues: They have about 20 different configurations for the same aircraft. They're needlessly spending money on dualboarding jet bridges for the TED operation, (which in itself is a disaster waiting to happen. The system is flown by regular United crews which is not saving them any money on labour costs. So the operating cost's are just about the same). They have not made Their whole system is plagued with inflated costs and overhead. Let's examine NW's network (which mirrors Continental). 3 Hubs domestically, all centrally located. All flights going east and west have to stop at one of the centrally located hubs. We have 2 focus cities, IND, and MKE, which seem to be working well, we have the entire upper midwest sewn up, which is a big money market for NW. In the short-term things look rough for NW, but in the long term NW is in better shape than UA. The operation is much less costly, more streamlined.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 11):
But two of them are a real bitch in the winter...which in MSP lasts 10 months...

They are much better operated than ORD is. Weather is not problem, it's congestion.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 11):
a European operation that relies heavily on a partner that is owned by someone else, and where your bid for ATI was preliminarily ruled against (and subsequently withdrawn),

Which is precisely why Air France and KLM will eventually fully integrate operations, and BTW the antitrust rulling is far from over. The appeals process will most likely overturn it. And UA will face the ssame concerns when LH buys out another European carrier as will AA, when BA buys out IB.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 11):
and no presence in Latin America. Truly simple.

A'hem, Continental Airlines? Delta Airlines? Ever heard of them? AeroMexico? Ring any bells?

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 11):
NW has had some of the most contentious "labor issues" in the industry for years....

And your point would be? The pilot at NW are the only group that has gone on strike a NW in the last 30 years or so, before the mechanics strike.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 11):
Seriously, I wish NW all the best, but they are far from being in better shape than anyone, long or short-term. Labor issues are just the beginning. Hubs in MSP and MEM that would not be missed by anyone if they were gone tomorrow. Traffic from the hub in DTW could just as easily be accommodated by AA and UA in ORD, DL in CVG, WN in MDW and without barely a blip in those airlines' load factor.

That's probably the dumbest observation yet. MSP, and DTW were both in the top 10 for passengers handled in the year over year for at least the past 10 years and NW is about 70% of the traffic. DTW and MSP may not be shared hubs like other, but that's an advantage, not a hinderance.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 11):
Don't even get me started on the DC9s, which eventually will need to be replaced...

Don't worry, you moronic observations speak volumes.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 11):
The Pacific operation is the one crown jewel...

The only intellegent point you've made so far, the rest was a waste of space.

Quoting Alexinwa (Reply 15):
I find it stunning that in the wake of 9/11 WN still makes a profit. Tell me all about the high costs of the other airlines, the high fuel, the bad this and that. But how is it that B6 and WN (others as well)can maintain profits, buy NEW airplanes, expand, and have the long-term employees that they have?

Their time will come. B6 for sure, they're already findng out what can happen when your warrenties on on all these aircraft expire, when labour costs start to go up and when the reckless spending of all these new facilities start to add up. WN is different story, kind of strategic brilliance.

Quoting EHHO (Reply 25):
, does UA have 744ERs, or only standard ones? If so, they're probably well below their MTOW on LAX-SYD runs?

No, all of UA's 744's are standards.

Quoting FlyMKG (Reply 28):
The guy was a baggage handler who is set to move up into a low level desk job at MSP. He said that information about NW was based on first hand accounts of talking with their people at MSP.

And there you have it. Why are you lending any creedance to this guy is beyond me.

[Edited 2006-01-31 18:18:19]
Made from jets!
 
joeman
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:34 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):
DTW and MSP both operate better in the winter than ORD, CLE, EWR, BOS, LGA, JFK, PHL, or PIT (in its heydey).

In terms of actual closure, delays or something else? ORD just seems like a no brainer on any count but is there comparative data available to cite? Thanks
 
Bernard Shakey
Posts: 541
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):
Quoting LawnDart (Reply 11):
DTW and MSP both operate better in the winter than ORD, CLE, EWR, BOS, LGA, JFK, PHL, or PIT (in its heydey).

Are you freaking kidding? The poster child for how NOT to handle a snowstorm was NW at DTW and MSP a few years back. There were planes full of people stranded all around both airports, some for upwards of 8 hours waiting for a gate. I've seen customers from that day describing how they were able to locate the phone number of NW's CEO and call him at home for help. To this day, that day gets referenced from time to time as exactly what to avoid during adverse weather.
Mindless drifter on the road, Carries such an easy load
 
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ramprat74
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting FlyMKG (Reply 28):
The guy was a baggage handler who is set to move up into a low level desk job at MSP. He said that information about NW was based on first hand accounts of talking with their people at MSP. He also mentioned something about escorting or helping UA mechanics find parts in the NW parts facility for UA A320s. This is because UA has done hardly any maintenance work on their own A320s and therefore has few parts and is less knowledgeable that their NW counterparts. I stated these were rumors only. Take them with a grain of salt if you choose. Everybody needs to just chill out.

Going from the ramp to a lower management job at United isn't moving up. We don't even have our own maintenance people in MSP. We do all A319/A320 maintenance in house. We don't outsource any Airbus work to third party vendors. So your UA source is a joke.
 
CO767FA
Posts: 388
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
1. UA & CO to merge. He said he doesn't think this will happen because its a little too far fetched and fleet commonality issues.

First and foremost, if he is privy to any "inside" information; his disclosure would be very interesting to the SEC. So, I seriously doubt he would have come to the room and said, "CO and UA will be announcing a merger next week". The statement he made is the safest road...deny,deny, deny!

Second, "far fetched", what does that mean? Odder combinations have happened. How many of us really thought HP would end up purchasing US? We hardly ever think of the "Sampson and Goliath" story applying to these types of scenarios.

Third, "Fleet Commonality" isn't an issue given that both companies have large fleets that could be sub-fleeted (i.e. UA 777 fly West-coast/East-coast to/from Asia and CO 777 fly West-coast/East-coast Europe). The nightmare would be in parts storage.

The bottom-line to the possible marriage with come to competitive necessity. If CO feels its long term viability is in jeopardy, it will do what it has to in order to survive (and I'm sure UA will do the same).

This persons thoughts are running contrary to what most in the industry are hearing (albeit rumors)!  Smile
 
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jetjack74
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting Bernard Shakey (Reply 34):
The poster child for how NOT to handle a snowstorm was NW at DTW and MSP a few years back.

It was a one time incident, not a trend. In fact, NW used the incident as a PR weapon, when the blackout hit the upper NE US in 2003, NW's used the incident to showcase a well executed backup plan. Lots of cancelled flights, but nobody was stuck on stranded aircraft. All incoming traffic was diverted to other airports and volunteers came to the airport to assist passngers off of aircraft, help them around the terminal. A 180 from the negative press we recieved on New Years, 1999.
Made from jets!
 
COERJ145
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:57 am

If I had had an award ticket on NW from BOS to TUS for july operated by CO and DL and NW went Ch. 7 in feb., would CO+DL accept my ticket? or would I be screwed?
 
halls120
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting Alexinwa (Reply 15):
But how is it that B6 and WN (others as well)can maintain profits, buy NEW airplanes, expand, and have the long-term employees that they have?

A simple domestic route structure and a common fleet, for starters.


Quoting Alexinwa (Reply 15):
NW, DL, CO, AA, and UA have done MOST of this to themselves.

true up to a point. No doubt most of their failures are self-inflicted. But many of their "faults" can be explained by the fact that every one of the carriers you name started as legacy carriers in the days of regulation, which didn't exactly promote efficiency. Have they taken too long to respond? Yes. But the playing field today is different that when they started....
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
CO767FA
Posts: 388
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting Alexinwa (Reply 15):
But how is it that B6 and WN (others as well)can maintain profits, buy NEW airplanes, expand, and have the long-term employees that they have?

How long has B6 paid on their A320 leases and maintenance? You really can't compare their relative short term success to the WN success story.

They both are in the LCC category, but that is all the similarity.
 
alphascan
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
In my Airline Administration class tonight we had a guy that works for UA at MSP come and speak to us.



Quoting FlyMKG (Reply 28):
The guy was a baggage handler who is set to move up into a low level desk job at MSP.

I'd be interested to know the name of the school that hires an instructor who brings in a baggage handler to give a talk on anything other than the fine art of handling bags and cargo.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
CO767FA
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:45 am

RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:54 am

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 41):
I'd be interested to know the name of the school that hires an instructor who brings in a baggage handler to give a talk on anything other than the fine art of handling bags and cargo.

So what....the OP was forthright in that he clarified the speaker's credentials. What is your point with this post?
 
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ramprat74
Posts: 1324
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:08 am

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 41):
I'd be interested to know the name of the school that hires an instructor who brings in a baggage handler to give a talk on anything other than the fine art of handling bags and cargo.

It's OK, he stayed at a Holiday Inn the night before. Big grin
 
alphascan
Posts: 795
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:04 am

RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 42):
What is your point with this post?

The point is that the original poster is paying money to some school who hires an instructor who brings in a non-credible person to speak on issues outside of his/her expertise and take up valuable class time that could be better used to give the students an education on the subject at hand.

That was a good one ramprat!

[Edited 2006-01-31 20:31:17]
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
CO767FA
Posts: 388
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:26 am

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 44):
The point is that the original poster is paying money to some school who hires an instructor who brings in a non-credible person to speak on issues outside of his/her expertise and take up valuable class time that could be better used to give the students an education on the subject at hand.

OH, I'm sorry...I didn't realize you were in the class too!
 
LawnDart
Posts: 861
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RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 32):
Yes Lawndart, another reason you're completely inept on any understanding of strategy.



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 32):
And your point would be?



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 32):
That's probably the dumbest observation yet.



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 32):
Don't worry, you moronic observations speak volumes.

You don't even know me, and yet you get so personal...

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 32):
WN stated before that it is unlikely that they'll start service to MSP anytime soon,

I don't imagine WN would announce their intention of starting service too far in advance. The point I was making is that any airline that believes they are immune from LCC competition just because there is little of it at present is kidding themselves. WN could start service to MSP tomorrow...all they have to do is load it in their reservation system.

By the way, how far in advance did WN say it was likely they would start service to PHL? DEN?

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 32):
They are much better operated than ORD is.

I don't think I ever compared NW's hubs in DTW and MSP to ORD in terms of operational efficiency.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 32):
Weather is not problem, it's congestion.

The latest Air Travel Consumer Report lists causes for delays...NW listed 1.03% of their flights were delayed by Extreme Weather Delay versus 0.69% for the industry on average. NW lists National Aviation System delays of 10.24% versus the average of 7.48%. National Aviation System is composed, in part, of delays generated by the inability of the ATC system to handle the flow of traffic which is, in turn, affected by the weather.

This is the January, 2006 report for operations in November, 2005.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 32):
Which is precisely why Air France and KLM will eventually fully integrate operations, and BTW the antitrust rulling is far from over.

Do you know for a fact that AF and KL will fully integrate? Because it sounds like you do. Which is interesting because AF and KL haven't announced anything official, have they? And BTW, the application for antitrust immunity as petitioned by NW and DL was pulled after the initial recommendation of rejection.

Not to say the air carriers won't apply again, but the current one is, in fact, over.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 32):
A'hem, Continental Airlines? Delta Airlines? Ever heard of them? AeroMexico? Ring any bells?

Hmm...now that you mention it, they do sound familiar! (Small comment...it's Delta Air Lines, not Airlines).

Apart from the NW code being on some Continental, Delta and AeroMexico flights, however, I think my point of NW having no presence in Latin America still stands. But okay, I'll retract...they have miniscule presence in Latin America.

Better?

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 32):
That's probably the dumbest observation yet.

I'll try to do better next time...

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 32):
MSP, and DTW were both in the top 10 for passengers handled in the year over year for at least the past 10 years and NW is about 70% of the traffic. DTW and MSP may not be shared hubs like other, but that's an advantage, not a hinderance.

By passengers handled, do you mean origin and destination...people who got on and off aircraft at a specific airport? Do you mean including single-airline transfer traffic (NW passengers carried to/from/through DTW)? Multiple-airline transfer traffic (AA/UA passengers carried to/from/through ORD)? Because without knowing what you mean, I can't really argue the point, except to say that I think MSP ranks about tenth, DTW a couple places below that.

And in the competitive landscape as it exists right now, I stand by my statement "Traffic from the hub in DTW could just as easily be accommodated by AA and UA in ORD, DL in CVG, WN in MDW and with barely a blip in those airlines' load factor".

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 32):
The only intellegent point you've made so far, the rest was a waste of space.

And yet you took a lot of time to respond.

Jetjack...before you attack someone for being "completely inept on any understanding of strategy" make completely sure that they don't work in exactly the area you accuse them of being completely inept at. Which is not to say I work in an area of strategy and am not, at the same time, completely inept. But if I did, I might have a little better understanding of strategic planning then, say, a flight attendant would.
 
rdwelch
Posts: 449
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:52 am

RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting Ramprat74 (Reply 43):
It's OK, he stayed at a Holiday Inn the night before.

Timing is everything. LMAO
They say I have ADD, but they don't understand..Oh look! A chicken!
 
PCE7306
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:20 am

RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:30 am

I heard Continental Express was taking over NW's ground handling in cities they share because NW is such a mess.
 
AirWest
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:13 am

RE: UA & NW Rumor Mill

Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:38 am

Here is my question. Do any of you besides jetjack who have posted here actually work for the two companies in question? You all seem so defensive, or offensive for that matter. I am just curious because I wonder how you can be so opinionated about one carrier, and so adamant about attacking another. Oh, by the way, not to be pro-NW, but doesn't NW or 9E/XJ fly to more US states than anybody else? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Zach
"And now I wish I was somewhere other than here"- JB

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