pilotntrng
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:53 am

If this has been discussed, I apologize. I just did something I rarely do, I caught a news broadcast from ABC news. I know how ignorant the media is when it comes to reporting on the airline industry, but I am inclined to believe them this time. They reported that UAL has emerged from bankruptcy and to celebrate they cut 30 percent of the workforce and 20 percent of aircraft from service. While doing this they announce a huge bonus program for management. The CEO alone received 15 million dollars in stock alone. Is is it just me or is this complete bull crap? How and the hell can they do this and have a guily free conscious? They are not the ones that make that airline run, its the flight crew and customer service agents that do it. This reaffirms my believe that all airlines are run by circus monkeys.



Brad
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StevenUhl777
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting PilotNTrng (Thread starter):
This reaffirms my believe that all airlines are run by circus monkeys.

You're absolutely right.  Instead, we should let someone with your many years of proven successful airline management to run them instead.

Quoting PilotNTrng (Thread starter):
If this has been discussed, I apologize

Nope...this is a brand new topic to A-net: UAL management  

[Edited 2006-02-02 01:07:14]
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
pilotntrng
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:11 am

Steven,

Thanks for the sarcastic response.
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CTHEWORLD
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:15 am

The employees have success sharing, and anyone with a brain can figure out that stock options are success sharing as well. A few things to keep in mind, that the media can't seem to get right:

1) The stock options have a vesting schedule
2) They are stock options, not cash, if the stock does well, which is an executive's job to oversee, then they make lots of money when they sell their options after they have vested, if the stock does poorly, and idication of them doing their job poorly, then their stock, thus cash, suffers as well.

Think about all those stock options ESOP employees, and executives alike had going in to CH.11, worth pennies now, same can be true for these new options. The media like to play in to the "big corporate bully greed" crap, but typical for the media, they never get the full story or report it accurately.

C
 
pilotntrng
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:25 am

CTHEWORLD,


So you are saying that the 30 percent that were laid off still have success sharing? No, I didn't think so. Did they have success sharing during the 3 years if bankrupcy? If you think so, thats hilarious.I don't think it's right for a company to screw their employees and then turn around and give the big wigs bonuses. For those of you who read this and respond as the first two here have ( besides myself) Don't take this personal and if you are in UAL management you should take it personal. Look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself was this the right thing to do?
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incitatus
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:26 am

Quoting PilotNTrng (Thread starter):
This reaffirms my believe that all airlines are run by circus monkeys.

Part of United's problems was the large influence pilots had in the company, driving their top salary past 300k.
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pilotntrng
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:32 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 5):

Ill agree with you that pilot salaries had grown out of control somewhat. Paycuts are better than having no job at all. That is the only thing I will agree with management on. On that ABC news program they had a 29 year veteran pilot that was forced to retire due to his age of 60. He had to find another job because he is only recieving 25 percent of his pension? Is that fair? of coarse not. Enjoy that 15 million in stock MR. CEO.
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fdex727
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:33 am

The layoffs and paycuts all came during the Ch. 11 process of which I was able to participate in and give part of my pay back. We did remove some aircraft through this process as well, I believe the 767-200's were the only part of the fleet removed entirely. While it was a painful process and I have since left UA I do believe that UA will better be able to compete now for the short to mid-term. As far as long term goes that remains to be seen. The only thing that I wish had been done differently would have been not creating TED. I believe that it just weakens the overall product by confusing customers. Anyway, I do hope this answered part of your question.
 
PhilSquares
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:41 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 5):
Part of United's problems was the large influence pilots had in the company, driving their top salary past 300k

Ok, so let me get this straight, the pilots put a gun to management's head and made them accept the contract?

Incitatus, perhaps you could cite some evidence that was presented in the bankruptcy hearings to justify your position? Otherwise, it's probably better not to say anything!

UAL's problems started long before the pilots got their contract. Suggest you do a little research on that.
Fly fast, live slow
 
luv2fly
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:46 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 8):
UAL's problems started long before the pilots got their contract. Suggest you do a little research on that

Yes though by no means did it help matters. Please the pilots were no angels by any stretch of the imagination.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
CO767FA
Posts: 388
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 3):
The employees have success sharing, and anyone with a brain can figure out that stock options are success sharing as well.

Does that sharing reflect the risk taken by the respective employee? Which employee has greater influence on the stock? And why?

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 3):
A few things to keep in mind, that the media can't seem to get right:

Right...the damn media...if they'd only keep to the really important stories....like Anna Nicoles Lawsuit and the Bush White House Counsel wanting in on the action?

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 5):
Part of United's problems was the large influence pilots had in the company, driving their top salary past 300k

Yes, partly due to their "sharing", right?

Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 6):
Paycuts are better than having no job at all.

When do the "paycuts" become unacceptable to you (meaning those reading and posting here)?
 
halls120
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:51 am

Quoting PilotNTrng (Thread starter):
They reported that UAL has emerged from bankruptcy and to celebrate they cut 30 percent of the workforce and 20 percent of aircraft from service. While doing this they announce a huge bonus program for management. The CEO alone received 15 million dollars in stock alone. Is is it just me or is this complete bull crap?

Welcome to capitalism. You don't like it? Move somewhere where it isn't practiced.

There was no "celebration" in cutting the workforce. It was necessary to save the jobs of the employees who remain.

And why do you care about the aircraft removed from service? Do you think they got their feelings hurt?

Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 2):
Steven,

Thanks for the sarcastic response.

Well, it's entirely deserved.

Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 6):
On that ABC news program they had a 29 year veteran pilot that was forced to retire due to his age of 60

Don't all pilots have to retire at 60?

Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 6):
Enjoy that 15 million in stock MR. CEO.

Executive salaries are paid according to what the market dictates. You want quality management, you have to pay the price.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
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mariner
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:02 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 11):
Welcome to capitalism.

What does Chapter 11 have to do with "capitalism"?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
PhilSquares
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:06 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 9):
Yes though by no means did it help matters. Please the pilots were no angels by any stretch of the imagination.

Ok, so you do realize that all the employees could have worked for nothing and the company would still lose money? Management has most, if not all the blame to shoulder. Look at their unrealistic growth projections, their unrealistic fleet plan, their unrealistic route system. Tell me how the pilots or for that fact any employee group has any blame in that?

This bull***t about labor being the issue is just stupid. When you have any industry pricing their product below cost that doesn't make sense.
Fly fast, live slow
 
halls120
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 12):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 11):
Welcome to capitalism.

What does Chapter 11 have to do with "capitalism"?

cheers

mariner

For better or worse, it's part of our version of capitalism.

I always marvel at people who bitch about the salaries of CEO's. At least the CEO is hopefully creating jobs. So Glenn Tilton is going to get 15 million? Sounds like a bargain, when you consider current salaries for sports and entertainment figures - who generally don't create a significant number of new jobs for the economy.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
aa757first
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:26 am

Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 4):
So you are saying that the 30 percent that were laid off still have success sharing?

So should you keep that 30% on and end up screwing 100% when the airline goes Chapter 7?

Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 6):
On that ABC news program they had a 29 year veteran pilot that was forced to retire due to his age of 60.

This is absurd on UAL's behalf. Who the hell are they to run their airline in accordance to FAA policies?!?! Newsflash. All commerical pilots (121 at least, do 135 pilots follow the same rules?) retire at 60. Frontier, American, United, US Airways, jetBlue, Southwest they all have to retire at 60. Why? Because the FAA says so.

---

Now, UA management looks at figures they came up with and sees they need to cut down on employees. The decide they need 30% of the employees gone and 20% of the airlines parked. What would you like them to do? Keep the aircraft in the air on unprofitable routes where they are getting their asses kicked by WN and F9? Now they are back to losing money. If they keep their employees on, they end up like a government owned carrier. Or would you like them to do what needs to be done and start trying to get the airline profitable?

The management's responsibility is to the shareholders, not the employees.

AAndrew
 
Coronado990
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:26 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 11):
Welcome to capitalism. You don't like it? Move somewhere where it isn't practiced.

No you move. God I hate those remarks.
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supa7E7
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:30 am

Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 6):
He had to find another job because he is only recieving 25 percent of his pension? Is that fair? of coarse not. Enjoy that 15 million in stock MR. CEO.

In all seriousness, that pension was a risky asset. Which is why pilots would not want their airline to go into bankruptcy. Life is risky. Life is not guaranteed.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 8):
Ok, so let me get this straight, the pilots put a gun to management's head and made them accept the contract?

Yes. DUH.

Fortunately, they paid a price for it. My only objection is that I as a taxpayer will pay a portion of the union's pensions, but they won't pay for my losses in my risky investments. Is that fair?
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
jetdeltamsy
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting PilotNTrng (Thread starter):
they cut 30 percent of the workforce and 20 percent of aircraft from service. While doing this they announce a huge bonus program for management.

United's management, essentially the same management that led them into bankruptcy in the first place, is an ultra-arrogant group of men and women that should be replaced.

For decades, United had an attitude of "we don't care because we don't have to" due to the fact the company was highly profitable. They have historically treated their customers, employees and even their competition with contempt.

This management team was particularly hard on Continental Airlines in the 80's and 90's. They even allowed their ramp employees in Denver to sport pin on buttons that said "Screw Continental". Much has been said about how American put it to Braniff in their final months in Dallas. United has been equally unethical and unprofessional in how they dealt with Continental.

NOTHING ON EARTH would make me jump for joy any higher than watching the "inferior" Continental absorb United and lay off every single manager in their organization.

United's management ranks are rotten to the core.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
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mariner
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:38 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 14):
For better or worse, it's part of our version of capitalism.

That may be, but I don't know what it has to do with the real thing.

"Capitalism" would deplore the destruction of the owners wealth - the shareholders, both common and, in the case of United, ESOP.

"Capitalism" would disapprove of corporate obligations being off-loaded onto government. At some point, that becomes simple socialism.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 14):
I always marvel at people who bitch about the salaries of CEO's.

Um - sorry, I don't recall mentioning the CEO or his salary. I have enormous respect for Mr. Tilton and what he has done. I understand why the creditors wanted to give him a great deal more than $15 million.

It is the laws that enabled him to do it that I dislike.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
incitatus
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:46 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 8):
Ok, so let me get this straight, the pilots put a gun to management's head and made them accept the contract?

Yes indeed. Airlines are very capital intensive. If you cripple the operation, the whole business goes belly up in weeks. What you wrote pretty much describes the action of the pilots in the case of United.

Now how many seats did the pilots have in the board? Three, right? So separating United management from the pilots is rather futile.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 8):
UAL's problems started long before the pilots got their contract. Suggest you do a little research on that.

No research needed because I also happen to agree with that statement. My original comment started with "Part of United's problem..." but you chose to ignore that.
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jacobin777
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:51 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 12):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 11):
Welcome to capitalism.

What does Chapter 11 have to do with "capitalism"?

cheers

mariner

it actually does to a certain extent......bankruptcy allows the debt holders (the "I.O.U." holders-secure creditors) to get some of their investment money back....shareholders, who are the non-secure creditors lose their investment...

chapter 11 or bankruptcy loseses its value when external forces such as the government (hence tax payer dollars) intervenes.....but if private institutions lose money..ie. such as banks, investment houses, etc. then there is no loss of tax-payer money, thus, the bankruptcy is still under a capitalistic system..

though each individual bankruptcy is a "zero-sum" game, the cumulative effect isn't.........hence, one can see the Goldman Sachs and Merril Lynch's of the world invest in UA because they know even if UA does completely liquidate, they will be able to 1) sell part of UA's assests which UA has pledged to them and to cover a part of their losses in the investment and 2). generate revenues from other sources...which will hopefully more than make up for in the UA loss..which would ....3)thus not require governmental intervention (ie.-tax)

now if a large amount of companies/corporations go bankrupt, then there will be a problem as the capital loss of all the secure/private holders will not be to be sustained, which would result in an extremely skewed situation (such as what happened with the S&L Savings debacle in the 1980's).....thats when the govt. would have to step in, otherwise there would be a national financial catastrophy...and that, the govt. cannot allow...


anway, I hope I made that a bit more clear......: Smile


by the way..hope you like my first F9 photo in the A.net database.. Smile


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satx
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:06 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 11):
Welcome to capitalism. You don't like it? Move somewhere where it isn't practiced.

Welcome to Freedom of Speech. You don't like it? Maybe you should be the one moving.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 11):

Don't all pilots have to retire at 60?

I think you missed the point of the original comment entirely.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 11):
Executive salaries are paid according to what the market dictates.

When you say "market" don't you really mean "the CEO's buddies on the board"?

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 14):
I always marvel at people who bitch about the salaries of CEO's. At least the CEO is hopefully creating jobs.

I always marvel at people who bitch about the salaries of sports and entertainment figures.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 14):
So Glenn Tilton is going to get 15 million? Sounds like a bargain

Not to me it doesn't. Greed seems to be an unknown concept over here in JesusLand.
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PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:12 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 17):
Fortunately, they paid a price for it. My only objection is that I as a taxpayer will pay a portion of the union's pensions, but they won't pay for my losses in my risky investments. Is that fair?

Perhaps you should check, but PBGC uses NO taxpayer's money! http://www.pbgc.gov/workers-retirees/about-pbgc/content/page13163.html
You'll see there are premiums paid by DB plans. It's part of the approval process used in setting up a DB plan. So you don't pay a cent. So DUH!

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 20):
No research needed because I also happen to agree with that statement. My original comment started with "Part of United's problem..." but you chose to ignore that

I didn't ignore it, I was merely trying to point out, it was a very minor part. The nails were already in UA's coffin long before the pilot's got their contract.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 20):
What you wrote pretty much describes the action of the pilots in the case of United.

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what you're referring? UAL management never got to a 30 day cooling off period!
Fly fast, live slow
 
flightopsguy
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:16 am

Quoting PilotNTrng (Thread starter):
This reaffirms my believe that all airlines are run by circus monkeys.

Then go work for a real company, Walmart.

Everyone who works there is so happy! The execs only make 10 cents an hour more than the guy who sweeps the floors.
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mariner
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:19 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
bankruptcy allows the debt holders (the "I.O.U." holders-secure creditors) to get some of their investment money back.

I understand all the justifications for Chapter 11, but it still isn't capitalism - or Capitalism. Under capitalism, the secured debt holders would be repaid and capitalism would say that if new creditors were fool enough to lend their money to a company that couldn't pay it's bills then they deserve all they get.

Those assets which are pledged to new creditors should instead, under capitalism, be used to repay, as far as possible, the "owners".

The laws of Chapter 11 have created an industry run by - and largely for the benefit of - banks and banking instututions.

A bankocracy?

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
thats when the govt. would have to step in, otherwise there would be a national financial catastrophy.

People claim that the liquidation of a major US airline would be a catastrophe, but, provably, it would not. The US survived the end of Pan Am and would survive the end of another major.

If - stress "if - there were no Chapter 11 and United had liquidated, then it is possible - stress "possible" - that the rest of the industry might be in better shape.

I am not advocating this. I am simply saying that the moment government intervenes - even by creating Chapter 11 - it is no longer capitalism.

On another thread, someone is asking why the European ailrines appear to be in much better financial shape than the US airlines.

Europe doesn't even pretend to capitalism, but several European airlines were allowed to liquidate. Is there a connection?

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
by the way..hope you like my first F9 photo in the A.net database

The photo is great - congratulations. I didn't know you are a photographer.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
mattnrsa
Posts: 359
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:25 am

It's amazing how management accomplished something that so many said couldn't be accomplished, namely getting UA out of bankruptcy, and they are still being criticized.

Why is UA being singled out for laying off employees and shrinking the fleet, when so many other airlines did the same thing. Remember, Tilton, did what many thought he couldn't do, and what most others didn't even want to try.

Yes, the employees are an extremely important part of the airline, but considering many didn't even think UA would exist, I, for one, am extremely grateful to Tilton and his team for pulling us through the most difficult time in UA's history.
 
aa757first
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:30 am

A question for you all, espeically for those who don't think that UAL management deserves this pay. If you could set UA's salary, how much would it be?

AAndrew
 
jacobin777
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:30 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 25):

I understand all the justifications for Chapter 11, but it still isn't capitalism - or Capitalism. Under capitalism, the secured debt holders would be repaid and capitalism would say that if new creditors were fool enough to lend their money to a company that couldn't pay it's bills then they deserve all they get.

Those assets which are pledged to new creditors should instead, under capitalism, be used to repay, as far as possible, the "owners".

The laws of Chapter 11 have created an industry run by - and largely for the benefit of - banks and banking instututions.

I understand your point of view, but I guess we differ on this, as I feel this still falls under the "sphere of capitalism".....

yes...Chapter 11 have created an industry run largy and for the benefit of banks and banking institutions (i.e. as the ones I mentioned above)....but they aren't supported by tax-payer money, and one can invest (as a private investor) and partake in these large banking institutions (thus, indirectly- investing as a secure creditor)..........

Quoting Mariner (Reply 25):
People claim that the liquidation of a major US airline would be a catastrophe, but, provably, it would not. The US survived the end of Pan Am and would survive the end of another major.

I never had arguments on that, but my reference was to the S&L banking crisis of the 1980's where the govermnent HAD to intervene.........

I've also never stated that the game isn't skewed in any way, as we all know it is.......

but in fairness..the United States Govt. did deny UA loan guarantees on multiple occasions and basically told UA to "get its house in order, or become extinct"..

Quoting Mariner (Reply 25):

The photo is great - congratulations. I didn't know you are a photographer.

thank you very much..

I really can't call myself a "photographer"..but I do happen to like spotting and photographing planes occasionally.......especially when I'm traveling..

cheers..
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Stitch
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:32 am

What does worry me is many of these options - going to both management and employees - have very short vesting periods. The first set vests in like six months (when the stock will probably still have some of it's "launch bounce") and the whole shebang evidently vests within three years.

That's going to put a lot of pressure on management (and to a more limited extent, employees) to do a lot of short-term "mumbo jumbo" to boost and maintain the stock price, which may or may not be healthy to UA's long term finances...
 
hiflyer
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:39 am

Quoting Mattnrsa (Reply 26):
Why is UA being singled out

It's Anet?

It appears a lot of the negatives here are coming from those with ties or leanings to other carriers who are very rightly concerned that what UAL did to their employee's their respective company may use on them. You see the same in speeches and interviews at higher levels of the industry...."the united effect" I think I have seen written a couple places.

Everyone loved it in the 90's with the industry leading contracts and such....well this is a new type of industry leading contract and employees at other carriers are quite angry and concerned it will happen to them....especially when they were continually reading that when UA went away everything would be great for the remaining carriers. A lot of people are now eating their words over what was said the last few years , they don't like it, and they are right about the pensions (but wrong about the taxpayers) but the fact remains UA has come out..good or bad....and the industry is going to be even more topsy turvy for a bit as a result.
 
satx
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:40 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
That's going to put a lot of pressure on management (and to a more limited extent, employees) to do a lot of short-term "mumbo jumbo" to boost and maintain the stock price, which may or may not be healthy to UA's long term finances...

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scalebuilder
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 14):
I always marvel at people who bitch about the salaries of CEO's. At least the CEO is hopefully creating jobs. So Glenn Tilton is going to get 15 million? Sounds like a bargain, when you consider current salaries for sports and entertainment figures - who generally don't create a significant number of new jobs for the economy.

And let's keep in mind that Mr. Tilton may get nothing at all here, and that is fair too. It was his choice to accept this job. He may have less guarantees in his contract than most unionized employees working at UA.

The executive management team at United has done a very good and thorough job. They have secured $3 billion of exit financing that will be needed for post Chapter 11 restructuring. UA received bids exceeding $7 billion for just that from all lenders combined. The current executive team enjoys great credibility in the investor community. UA could actually be "picky" about the terms this time. Unusual for any company exiting Chapter 11.

I realize that lots of private persons (including employees) and other institutions lost big time on the UA bankruptcy (we're talking billions here...). I am working for a company that did lose big time (millions, however, and not billions). But losing out is a calculated risk. It was our choice to hang on to those bonds. After 9/11 there wasn't even a market out there for anyone to buy these if we decided to sell off. The loss would have been just as large, and with no time or reason to "wait this out" either. A risk that Corporate America rarely has had to deal with historically.

I think it is sad to read about those lost pensions at the individual level - particularly from those long-term serving individuals relying only on UA to fund these for them. We just need to remember that defined benefit plans are "out" in Corporate America. They have been out for 10 years or more. Companies have managed to transfer the risk of "retiring well" to the individual and away from the company. It is up to everyone to go out there to empower themselves. Fair enough, because all of us are in the same boat. However, the unions of legacy airlines have simply clung to this guarantee even though the unions very well have understood all along that UA (or any other airline) simply could not fund this kind of obligation at the end. So here we are with the "truth at last". Generous union contracts filled with guarantees just didn't work at UA. It just doesn't work. Their pension obligation was one of the first things this Company eliminated from their other numerous obligations when it filed for Chapter 11. Look at some of the other "marginally profitable US carriers" like CO. They are funding their obligation, but can barely do so.

A leaner and more efficient UA has emerged from this long Chapter 11 reorganization, but this is also a company that can operate under fairer terms with the rest of Corporate America and not just within its industry.

.
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
zkeye
Posts: 222
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 10):
When do the "paycuts" become unacceptable to you (meaning those reading and posting here)?

Simple - When the employees decide to leave for better paid jobs.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 11):
Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 2):
Steven,

Thanks for the sarcastic response.

Well, it's entirely deserved.

 checkmark 

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 11):
Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 6):
Enjoy that 15 million in stock MR. CEO.

Executive salaries are paid according to what the market dictates. You want quality management, you have to pay the price.

 checkmark 

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 11):
Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 6):
On that ABC news program they had a 29 year veteran pilot that was forced to retire due to his age of 60

Don't all pilots have to retire at 60?

 checkmark 

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 15):
The management's responsibility is to the shareholders, not the employees.

 checkmark 

Quoting SATX (Reply 22):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 11):
Executive salaries are paid according to what the market dictates.

 checkmark 

When you say "market" don't you really mean "the CEO's buddies on the board"?

Silly conspiracy theory nonsense. Do you really think this is how it works?

Quoting SATX (Reply 22):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 14):
So Glenn Tilton is going to get 15 million? Sounds like a bargain

Not to me it doesn't. Greed seems to be an unknown concept over here in JesusLand.

What do you suggest he should have got? He should take whatever he can get its not like $15 million is going to drive UA under. It is no different to all other employees. All this talk of "greed" is stupid. Do you thing that the flight attendants, ramp workers etc.. wouldn't take as much as they could get? The fact that thay are taking cuts is because they are replaceable at lower rates - like it or not.
Bring out the gimp
 
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mariner
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):
I guess we differ on this,

Yes, we do.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):
my reference was to the S&L banking crisis of the 1980's where the govermnent HAD to intervene.........

I udnerstand that. My reference was to bring it back to aviation. But if you want to stay with that, catastrophe, potential or actual, is a function of capitalism.

The Great Depression was a catastrophe. I do not wish for it - or anything like it - to happen again.

But, as on old Lefty, it is only because of the Depression that certain social advances were possible.

In the case of the S&L crisis, the government preferred a certain course of action to a catastrophic alternative.

One could suggest that the government action was, in itself, a different kind of catastrophe.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):
the United States Govt. did deny UA loan guarantees on multiple occasions and basically told UA to "get its house in order, or become extinct".

Yes, an arm of the government said "get your house in order." It did not say "become extinct".

I would think the ATSB was aware that Chapter 11 was the safety net for United.

It isn't going to change. My interest is purely as an historian.  Smile

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
scalebuilder
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:38 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 35):
As one of many mistreated United employees said recently of the obscene bonuses given to its 'management' after taking everything but the shirt of their backs for the last three years.

'In times past these people would have been boiled in oil for such treachery'.
I couldn't agree more.

This is not capitalism, just a further grotesque example of the 'haves' taking more from the 'have not's' in this country.

An attitude celebtated by the present administration.

You need to show us some numbers here. You agree with the statements above it seems, but to me this is simply just too general to have any opinion of at all. Please educate me.

P.S - I do not work for UA. Completely independent.
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
jacobin777
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:54 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 34):
In the case of the S&L crisis, the government preferred a certain course of action to a catastrophic alternative.

hence me assertion regarding the fact the Govt. had to intervene....

Quoting Mariner (Reply 34):

One could suggest that the government action was, in itself, a different kind of catastrophe.

lol....but I think the government did make the right decisions....just like the Great Depression...the S&L happened because of lax attention (and not to menton-whole scale breaking) of the rules........

to top it all off...it just goes to show what a mountain of debt does...but I still think capitalism is one of the better economic systems out there...like most things else, its proned to be abused by individuals, corporations, and governments....

Quoting Mariner (Reply 34):
Yes, an arm of the government said "get your house in order." It did not say "become extinct".

of course the govt. wouldn't use the "extinct" word with UA..but UA got the message close enough... Wink

I would think the ATSB was aware that Chapter 11 was the safety net for United.[/quote]

history is also rife with big-time air carriers being liquidated also, I'm sure they had that in the back of their minds too.. Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
gigneil
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:24 pm

Quoting PilotNTrng (Thread starter):
They reported that UAL has emerged from bankruptcy and to celebrate they cut 30 percent of the workforce and 20 percent of aircraft from service.

No, that's not what happened. Those cuts took place over the last 3 years, its not like it happened today.

Quoting PilotNTrng (Thread starter):
They are not the ones that make that airline run,

You're wrong. They are the ones that make it run. They're the ones that buy the fuel, and market the product, and negotiate for money.

Glenn Tilton single handedly pulled a multibillion dollar company out of the gutter. that's worth more than $15m.

N
 
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mariner
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:44 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
.but I think the government did make the right decisions.

That's different. That's a value judgement. Capitalism would have allowed the catastrophe.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
..but I still think capitalism is one of the better economic systems out there.

Well, yes, I agree, but that's another value judgement. There are very few places in the world that actually practise true "capitalism".

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
of course the govt. wouldn't use the "extinct" word with UA..but UA got the message close enough... 

Or not. Some time before the final ATSB decision, Mr. Tilton was rushing around saying they didn't actually need the money.

I think United's hubris was such they believed they couldn't be turned down because they were United.

When they were, my guess is that Mr. Tilton took a "f**k you" attutude - "I'll show you what I can do!"

From that moment, the fate of the wages and the pensions and all the other stuff was sealed.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
jacobin777
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:03 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 39):

I think United's hubris was such they believed they couldn't be turned down because they were United.

When they were, my guess is that Mr. Tilton took a "f**k you" attutude - "I'll show you what I can do!"

From that moment, the fate of the wages and the pensions and all the other stuff was sealed.

interesting observation and conclusion......I do agree with the hubris of UA...but getting money elsewhere was in itself a challange..and I still believe Tilton has done a good job with guiding UA..not that the story is over, but he certainly got UA out of a potential Chapter 7 bankruptcy....

Quoting Mariner (Reply 39):

That's different. That's a value judgement. Capitalism would have allowed the catastrophe.

well..the idea of "capitalism" is to have as little as governmental intervention as possible...but I think that could only happen in some kind of pseudo-utopian society.....

"Capitalism has been defined in various ways.[1] In common usage, it means an economic system in which the means of production are overwhelmingly privately owned and operated for profit, decisions regarding investment of capital are made privately, and where production, distribution, and the prices of goods, services, and labor are affected by the forces of supply and demand in a largely free market.

Capitalism has also been referred to by the terms free market economy, free enterprise system, and economic liberalism. There is not a consensus on which economies are capitalist, and which are "mixed economies" which have have varying degrees of government involvement in economic activity and/or some state-owned means of production."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

Quoting Mariner (Reply 39):
Well, yes, I agree, but that's another value judgement. There are very few places in the world that actually practise true "capitalism".

couldn't agree with you more... checkmark 

cheers... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
CTHEWORLD
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:04 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 18):
This management team was particularly hard on Continental Airlines in the 80's and 90's.

Uh...Tilton, Brace, Tague, Carey....they were all no where around UAL in teh 80's and 90's...CO's own management was much worse to them in the 80's than anyone at any other company could dream of! Get your facts straight about who was at UAL when before you spout off!
 
CTHEWORLD
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:10 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 14):
So Glenn Tilton is going to get 15 million?

He isn't, which is what most of the idiots on these boards don't understand. He is going to get options, that could equate to $15mill, or it could equate to squat, depending on the job he does. People just don't get it, they read the headlines from the tainted and biased media in the U.S. and think they have the whole story. Any talk on these boards about the equity sharing the employees get that will be deposited in to their 401k accounts in about 10 days? NO? There is friggin shock. Yeah, a lot of that equity sharing is pennies on the dollar, but is is better than a poke in the eye or the unemployment line!
 
CTHEWORLD
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:16 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 35):
An attitude celebrated by the present administration.

Oh jeez.....keep your political drivel off these pages. I suggest a deletion of your post!
 
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mariner
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:22 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 40):
and I still believe Tilton has done a good job with guiding UA..not that the story is over, but he certainly got UA out of a potential Chapter 7 bankruptcy....

That was my starting point.  Smile

Quoting Mariner (Reply 19):
I have enormous respect for Mr. Tilton and what he has done. I understand why the creditors wanted to give him a great deal more than $15 million.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:41 pm

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 16):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 11):
Welcome to capitalism. You don't like it? Move somewhere where it isn't practiced.

No you move. God I hate those remarks.

That was a bit harsh on my part, and I apologize. However, what UA did is no different than any other company that is faced with a business plan and an economic situation that isn't viable. You don't like it, you should elect people to Congress that will change the laws to your liking.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 18):
United's management ranks are rotten to the core.

Now there's an overbroad generalization for you.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 19):
Um - sorry, I don't recall mentioning the CEO or his salary. I have enormous respect for Mr. Tilton and what he has done. I understand why the creditors wanted to give him a great deal more than $15 million.

It is the laws that enabled him to do it that I dislike.

My bad. I should have made it clear my comment wasn't related to yours.

Quoting SATX (Reply 22):
When you say "market" don't you really mean "the CEO's buddies on the board"?

No.

Quoting SATX (Reply 22):
I always marvel at people who bitch about the salaries of sports and entertainment figures.

Except I wasn't complaining about anybody's pay - that would be your attempt to distort the clear meaning of my words. I'm happy Tiger Woods earns in excess of 80 million per year. I hope he tops 100 million this year. My point was that a CEO creates jobs - if they are successful - and as such are well worth the money they are paid.

Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 33):
All this talk of "greed" is stupid. Do you thing that the flight attendants, ramp workers etc.. wouldn't take as much as they could get? The fact that thay are taking cuts is because they are replaceable at lower rates - like it or not.

In SATX's world, CEO's who ask to be compensated consistent with their peers are greedy SOB's, while workers who ask for compensation above what the market is willing to pay are proletariats being ground down by the man. Like it or not, people are paid what they are worth. We already tried the experiment of equal pay for all, regardless of value or worth contributed, and it was a failure.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
UAL777UK
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Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:50 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 18):
This management team was particularly hard on Continental Airlines in the 80's and 90's. They even allowed their ramp employees in Denver to sport pin on buttons that said "Screw Continental". Much has been said about how American put it to Braniff in their final months in Dallas. United has been equally unethical and unprofessional in how they dealt with Continental.

Look, dont bring up issues with Continental...it was only a couple of years ago that the then CEO of Continental Gordon Bethune or was it Baboon stood up at a conference and stated that United was like Aids, it was dieing a slow death!!. If thats not below the belt then god knows what is. He was forced to make a grovelling apology!
 
mcdu
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UAL's Management

Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 18):
This management team was particularly hard on Continental Airlines in the 80's and 90's. They even allowed their ramp employees in Denver to sport pin on buttons that said "Screw Continental". Much has been said about how American put it to Braniff in their final months in Dallas. United has been equally unethical and unprofessional in how they dealt with Continental.

WRONG. The pins in DEN said TORQUE with a symbol picture of a screw below the TORQUE. TORQUE= Try Our Real Quality United Experience. This was done in the late 80's. You remember those times at CO. There was a man in charge of CO by the name of Francisco (Frank) Lorenzo. Remember him. The same man that was told by the Govt. that he could never own or run an airline again. The same man that was the impetus for the change of all the BK rules in association with airlines. Yes those same BK rules that UAL had to operate under to exit. Don't tell me about bad management. You at CO had Lorenzo and later you had Buffoon. Buffoon is the same man that also compared UAL to the Titanic. "Once it started listing it would roll over very quickly" was another quote by the fearless leader of CO. So please forgive me if I have little sympathy for you anger a some buttons. The annals of CO are littered with the vestiges of poor leadership and bad labor relations. I share you wish, almost. Just hope it is the other way around and UAL can find away to lay off those loyalist to Lorenzo that are infecting the airline.
 
UAL777UK
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Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 46):
WRONG. The pins in DEN said TORQUE with a symbol picture of a screw below the TORQUE. TORQUE= Try Our Real Quality United Experience. This was done in the late 80's. You remember those times at CO. There was a man in charge of CO by the name of Francisco (Frank) Lorenzo. Remember him. The same man that was told by the Govt. that he could never own or run an airline again. The same man that was the impetus for the change of all the BK rules in association with airlines. Yes those same BK rules that UAL had to operate under to exit. Don't tell me about bad management. You at CO had Lorenzo and later you had Buffoon. Buffoon is the same man that also compared UAL to the Titanic. "Once it started listing it would roll over very quickly" was another quote by the fearless leader of CO. So please forgive me if I have little sympathy for you anger a some buttons. The annals of CO are littered with the vestiges of poor leadership and bad labor relations. I share you wish, almost. Just hope it is the other way around and UAL can find away to lay off those loyalist to Lorenzo that are infecting the airline.

Great post!  bigthumbsup 
 
CO767FA
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Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 46):
WRONG. The pins in DEN said TORQUE with a symbol picture of a screw below the TORQUE. TORQUE= Try Our Real Quality United Experience.

U have it WRONG....the buttons have the word TORQUE on the front of the button (T.O.R.Q.U.E.) and when you turn it over, the back has the tail of the CO Meatball along with a screw being placed right through the tail.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 46):
So please forgive me if I have little sympathy for you anger a some buttons

Anger for the buttons is only one aspect of the treatment United and other "mainline" carriers gave us. United also used to pilfer our customers by sending agents over to the lines asking customers if they were "enjoying" their experience on Continental (hence the TORQUE).

The treatment that most of the former and current BK companies receive on this board is mild compared to the spitting; epithets; and derogatory treatment F/A's/Pilots and other employees received!
 
mcdu
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Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 48):
The treatment that most of the former and current BK companies receive on this board is mild compared to the spitting; epithets; and derogatory treatment F/A's/Pilots and other employees received!

Would the fact that those employees had crossed picket lines? Did you really expect the airline world to welcome you with open arms? Anyone that crossed the line knew the realities of what they were doing and the results that would occurr.