airlinelover
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Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:42 am

I was wondering.. and it's probably been discussed before..

If (and i'm sure it won't happen) Boeing and Airbus were to join forces to create an airplane together, what would it be, what range, etc etc..

Now I am not looking for any modified airliner pics or anything, just theoretical possibilities.. By combining both of them, the best both have to offer, I'd like to see what would happen..

Anyone?

NO AvB WARS!!

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:46 am

You're funny, I like that.

 Wink
 
BG777300ER
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:48 am

A B390-900 (B represents boing and the numbers represent the airbus naming system), two decks plus a Boeing 747 "hump" as a third level. It will have 4 GE90s, and have the range of the 772LR. It would have new GE90s with bleedless technology, and be almost all composite, like the 787.
Koi mi sra v gashtite?
 
satx
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:50 am

I'm guessing they'd actually build much lower quality aircraft since they would be the only game in town for most types. Necessity is the mother of all invention... and dominance is the father of shoddy workmanship.  Wink
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
norcal
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:01 am

An SST would be an interesting project for both to work on, though given some fundamental design preferences by both companies (for example their differing views on FBW systems or even the simple yoke vs. side stick) I don't know if it would work. Not too mention that an SSTs are hampered by being gas guzzlers compared to more traditional aircraft. However you never know what technology will bring us, so here is the BoeBus SST

- Cruise speed of 3.0 Mach
- Bleedless engines
- Largely composite
- seating for 350 in a 3 class layout
- operating costs equal to a 773ER
- Twin engine
- Range of 11,000nm
- MTOW equal to an A380F
- OEW equal to a 7773ER

Now if only physics/lack of technology wouldn't get in the way
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:06 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 3):
I'm guessing they'd actually build much lower quality aircraft since they would be the only game in town for most types. Necessity is the mother of all invention... and dominance is the father of shoddy workmanship.

It would also cost 3 times as much due to it being built by a monopoly. It would also have 4 engines. A Rolls-Royce, a GE, a Pratt, and a Snecma.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
lehpron
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:28 am

Quoting Airlinelover (Thread starter):
NO AvB WARS!!

Dude! Why say it?

Quoting NorCal (Reply 4):
An SST would be an interesting project for both to work on

That would be the only option at this point. It would be the only one to make any sense. Though I wish that SSBJ deal with those other two companies would just disappear.

No, I'm not wishing them ill, I just do not think they are helping the greater good of the commercial aviation industry by making an airplane that the majority of regular folks cannot afford!!  Angry I wouldn't support that.

Quoting NorCal (Reply 4):
However you never know what technology will bring us

I do. Big grin

Quoting NorCal (Reply 4):
Now if only physics/lack of technology wouldn't get in the way

Science is our friend. But you have to have faith in people first. We are the ones who come up with ideas, not the technologies.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
norcal
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:59 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 6):
Science is our friend. But you have to have faith in people first. We are the ones who come up with ideas, not the technologies.

haha, yeah I know, I guess I am getting impatient  embarrassed 
I know plenty of Aero-engineers and they are incredibly bright and I believe/hope they will make stuff like SSTs an economical reality


Training to be a pilot I always want something bigger/faster/better to fly. I'm ok with technology as long as it doesn't design me out of the cockpit, but I guess that is my problem to deal with  Sad.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:09 pm

If Airbus and Boeing combined, then there would be some huge antitrust issues. There are only two large scale makers of full size jetliners nowadays. Boeing and McDonnell Douglas probably wouldn't have been allowed to merge in the 1980s before there was a third competitor. Quality would fall and prices would rise if Airbus and Boeing worked together. That isn't the way business works best.

Quoting NorCal (Reply 4):
- Cruise speed of 3.0 Mach
- Bleedless engines
- Largely composite
- seating for 350 in a 3 class layout
- operating costs equal to a 773ER
- Twin engine
- Range of 11,000nm
- MTOW equal to an A380F
- OEW equal to a 7773ER

Now if only physics/lack of technology wouldn't get in the way

Actually a lot of this is possible. If money were not a factor, then yes you could get a plane to do all of that. Of course an ideal plane would be made out of titanium (not composites). Titanium is stronger and lighter than aluminum and is all around the perfect material for a plane. Now if only it didn't require a complex manufacturing process that would make planes cost in the billions each.

Size isn't a limiting factor. It could happen. Heck if we wanted to, we could launch a mission to send humans to Pluto, but that isn't happening any time soon. Money is the limit of progress and technology.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
gigneil
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:25 pm

If they worked together, we'd be stuck on the 80s generation of aircraft forever. There'd be no innovation, no reason to change.

They'd get making a 767 down to $3.50, and still sell it for $125m.

N
 
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garpd
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Toget

Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:00 pm

Hmm, if A and B worked together....

If we took just the good bits from both manufacturers, you'd get a plane that would perform as promised and be delivered when promised and at a steal of a price...

 devil 
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Glareskin
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:07 pm

Quoting GARPD (Reply 11):
and at a steal of a price...

Ha ha ha, I see what you mean. The price coming from Boeing, right?

Quoting Airlinelover (Thread starter):
If (and i'm sure it won't happen) Boeing and Airbus were to join forces

For a long time the same was said about Boeing and McDonnel Douglas. Just wait until the Chinese will have their own successful jets in the skies.......
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
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N328KF
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting NorCal (Reply 4):
An SST would be an interesting project for both to work on, though given some fundamental design preferences by both companies (for example their differing views on FBW systems or even the simple yoke vs. side stick)

As an aside, it seems to me that since newer aircraft are FBW anyhow, that they could be designed to accept either at build time, or have the configuration changed after the fact. For instance, you buy a 787 with a yoke...you sell it years later to a stick operator, who pulls out the yoke, and on the side panel, installs a sidestick.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
trex8
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:39 am

in the ? early 90s when Boeing was working on a potential 747 replacement, the Very Large Commercial transport, they did approach some of Airbus' parent companies - DASA etc about joint development. Funny, back then they refused to approach Airbus itself as they said then it "wasn't a proper aircraft manufacturer"! Probably same reason they had no problems with Bush 1 negotiating the launch aid subsidy issue with the EU which they now say is illegal but felt was a decent agreement then.
 
A319XFW
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 13):
in the ? early 90s when Boeing was working on a potential 747 replacement, the Very Large Commercial transport, they did approach some of Airbus' parent companies - DASA etc about joint development

I think it was a bit more than talks.
But then once it finished, people thought it was a ploy from Boeing to waste Airbus' time and they never really wanted to cooperate from the start. But that's what I heard from other people (and read it somewhere here too), so don't know if it is true of course!
 
PRGLY
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:01 am

We would have to create some -C- to be able to to open new A+B v C war
just fly - it is nice
 
aloges
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:08 am

I for one would be partial to an Airbus 721 (or whatever name you prefer) - roughly a 757 wing with an A321 fuselage. Hot rod with a more comfy interior!  Smile
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
FLALEFTY
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:40 am

These are great times with are living in brothers & sisters!

Boeing and Airbus are doing a great job of prodding one-another into building better planes. Why mess with a good thing?

Competition is GOOD!
 
bohica
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:54 am

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if it is revealed that Airbus makes some parts for Boeing planes and Boeing makes some parts for Airbus planes.
 
EI321
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:55 am

I hope A and A dont join forces. why? Competition results in cheaper, safer and more ground breaking planes (like 787). Also, the existance of a 'BoeBus' monopoly would make it more difficult for smaller manufacturers (Russian, Chisese a/c, Embraer, etc) to enter the market place.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting PRGLY (Reply 15):
We would have to create some -C- to be able to to open new A+B v C war

Merge Bombardier and Embraer?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PRGLY
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:39 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 20):
Merge Bombardier and Embraer

I m almost sure that hypothetic -C- will come from China one day
just fly - it is nice
 
N1120A
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:43 pm

Actually, this is the result of them working together


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Photo © Terence Li



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jonathan-l
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:30 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
Actually, this is the result of them working together

I think more details, beyond the Very Large Commercial Transport, would be appreciated.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:35 pm

Competition helps Everyone  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
lehpron
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:50 am

Quoting NorCal (Reply 7):
I know plenty of Aero-engineers and they are incredibly bright and I believe/hope they will make stuff like SSTs an economical reality

Aerospace engineers are gifted with the knowledge to do anything, as in any field of engineering; we do the impossible. We are limited because of several groups: Investors & shareholders, our employers and the company minset, and the customer's mindset. Everything boils down to belief, in one of my many humblest of opinions.

If an SST (or anything) is to be built, all of those groups need to be weilded and standardized. For now, engineers are button-pushers, again IMO. Personally, I prefer against being a cookie-cut engineer. I don't want to be a tweeker, to make another 787 or a first stage to a future Titan 9...

Yeah I know, I'm starting to get outspoken and opinionated. Big grin Don't hold your breath Norcal, but it's gona be a while.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:51 am

Quoting Airlinelover (Thread starter):
If (and i'm sure it won't happen) Boeing and Airbus were to join forces to create an airplane together, what would it be, what range, etc etc..

Well, to start with, their assembly plant would be somewhere mid-way.....in Iceland?  smile 

And what in the world would happen to more than half the A.netters who spend most of their useful time building up pointless A v/s B threads???? Big grin
 
airlinelover
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:59 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 10):
you'd get a plane that would perform as promised and be delivered when promised

From the Boeing Side

Quoting GARPD (Reply 10):
at a steal of a price...

From the Airbus Side

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:05 pm

Doesn't Boeing assemble something like 25% of the A380?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
JAM747
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:17 pm

Boeing in the mid 70s did approach Airbus about building a twin wide body together. It would have a A300 fuselage and Boeing wing. Airbus turned it down. I just read it on a detailed article in an issue of Flightpath magazine about the A300 from www.airtimepublishing.com. This magazine is not published any more but some copies are still available. I forgot want the proposed concept was called but I will check and post it. This was when there was still competition from Mcdonald Douglas and Lockeed. However since A and B are now the large builders of aircrafts I would doubt that such a major colaboration would be allowed.
 
trex8
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:24 pm

Quoting Bohica (Reply 18):
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if it is revealed that Airbus makes some parts for Boeing planes and Boeing makes some parts for Airbus planes.

EADS has a contract to supply a composite bulkhead for the 787. I'm not aware of any Boeing division which supplies Airbus directly though Spirit which was previously part of Boeing (its Wichita division) wants Airbus work. AWST had a recent article about Spirit, the Airbus people had just been by see what they could offer but it seems Airbus thought Spirit was too expensive.

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 28):
Doesn't Boeing assemble something like 25% of the A380?

no, you may be able to make a good argument 25% , or even by Airbus stats even more than that, of the A380 by value is sourced from US factories.
 
Glareskin
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting Airlinelover (Reply 27):
From the Boeing Side



Quoting Airlinelover (Reply 27):
From the Airbus Side

How smart of you to find out what he meant with that!
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
A319XFW
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:23 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 30):
I'm not aware of any Boeing division which supplies Airbus directly though Spirit which was previously part of Boeing (its Wichita division) wants Airbus work

Hawker de Havilland of Australia ( http://www.hawkerdehavilland.com.au ) is owned by Boeing and builds the wing fences for the A380 amongst others.
( http://www.hawkerdehavilland.com.au/...AboutHdH/CurrentCivilProjects.html )

And then I think Jeppesen supplies Airbus too and there must be more.
 
AvObserver
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 13):
in the ? early 90s when Boeing was working on a potential 747 replacement, the Very Large Commercial transport, they did approach some of Airbus' parent companies - DASA etc about joint development. Funny, back then they refused to approach Airbus itself as they said then it "wasn't a proper aircraft manufacturer"! Probably same reason they had no problems with Bush 1 negotiating the launch aid subsidy issue with the EU which they now say is illegal but felt was a decent agreement then.

According to the 1999 Norris and Wagner book, "Modern Boeing Airliners", Airbus, itself, eventually did become formally involved in this study which was terminated in July, 1995, after, supposedly, a mutual determination the market wasn't then large enough to support the joint venture. Nevertheless, after that, Airbus resumed their UHCA (Ultra High Capacity Aircraft) studies soon to be known as the A3XX and Boeing resumed 747 stretch studies which went nowhere until recently. Many believe the differences in corporate culture would have been a serious impediment to any Airbus-Boeing collaboration. IF there was indeed a market for a new SST, which there clearly ISN'T, that would be the only likely instance in which Airbus and Boeing might join forces.
 
gigneil
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RE: Theoretical: If Boeing And Airbus Worked Together

Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:07 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 28):
Doesn't Boeing assemble something like 25% of the A380?

No. Boeing manufactures the wingtip fences, and that's it.

N

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