klmcedric
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KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:08 am

Nothing official yet, so don't take my word for it, but normally around the end
of the summerschedule KLM will introduce non-stop 772ER service to Lima.
The downside of this is that KL would cease operations to BON .
Quito and Guayaquil would be operated from either CUR or AUA.
Lots of crew will be very dissapointed if BON is no more, it is a very popular
destination.
You can ask me for sources about this, I won't give them. You can choose to
believe me or not. These plans are being made, and there's a very high
probability of them being executed!!!
Cheers
 
sk601
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:14 am

Good news for LIM!

Not good for BON....   , I am surprised that -according to your post- KL will drop BON completely. Is a combination with SXM a possibility? Now SXM is combined with CUR, but what about AMS-SXM-BON-AMS with the MD11?

Will KL start a cooperation with 9H (again) for the demand to BON?

......interesting developments.....


oeps: I just saw that the cursor will tell you that 9H is EcoAir from Algeria, but 9H is also the prefix for Dutch Antilles Express.

[Edited 2006-02-02 19:24:06]
 
Avianca
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:23 am

I can not belive KLM will cut BON, it would be like BA would cut HKG.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
juventus
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:30 am

Congratulations to Peru (if this happens). The Peruvian Government has been trying really hard to attract tourism. But I don't think the loads on the LIM route will match the loads on the BON.
 
sk601
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting Juventus (Reply 3):
But I don't think the loads on the LIM route will match the loads on the BON.

I do the gate handling for KL741 AMS-BON-LIM quite often and usually it's 20/80. So 20% of the pax is for BON and 80% for LIM, sometimes even 10/90.
 
mauriceb
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:15 am

Lots of crew will be very dissapointed if BON is no more, it is a very popular
destination


well when looking at the amount of pax, that isnt true. BON is a small island wich only receives the dutch people living there in the winter or people wich come for diving.

When were talking about the crew, youre absolutely right, they have some great hotels there, and it even has the best rated ''Van der Valk'' of the world, wich i can tell you since iv been there, its almost like a litle village.

Quoting SK601 (Reply 4):
I do the gate handling for KL741 AMS-BON-LIM quite often and usually it's 20/80. So 20% of the pax is for BON and 80% for LIM, sometimes even 10/90.

thats about 118 pax a day from Holland, wich isnt really much ofcourse and can perfectly be handled by Bonair Express ,via CUR/AuA , wich KL has a good relationship with. And they are doing fine, except that they have to lease planes once in a while because the ATR's breek down quite a lot, at the Moment denim air is working for them since theire planes are getting a major over haul , so they can fly without breaking down eacht week.
 
flyingfool
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 2):
I can not belive KLM will cut BON, it would be like BA would cut HKG.

Just the same here...
 
jcavinato
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:04 am

On our vacations to BON in the 90s I always waited for the inbound KLM 747 inbound in the afternoons. Majestic looking thing.
 
A342
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:14 am

What about providing a minimum of direct service to BON, say a weekly A332 flight ?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Avianca
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:25 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 8):
What about providing a minimum of direct service to BON, say a weekly A332 flight ?

with currently 11 weekly flights (ok combined ones) should be a weekly A332 not enough. I would say 3 or 4 a week could work nonstop. or they could go daily combining with a new destination (BOG or SJO) came in my mind.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
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LTU932
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 2):
I can not belive KLM will cut BON, it would be like BA would cut HKG

Agreed. It's said that KL is cutting service to one of the Islands in the Antilles.

Quoting A342 (Reply 8):
What about providing a minimum of direct service to BON, say a weekly A332 flight ?

If, then it would be a seasonal service once a week, but with an MD-11.

[Edited 2006-02-02 22:29:38]
 
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LTU932
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 9):
or they could go daily combining with a new destination (BOG or SJO) came in my mind.

Yeah, why not? Though ETOPS could be a consideration as to why they wouldn't go with an A332 to those places. I'd go with the MD-11 as the plane that would fly into these destinations through BON.
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:47 am

Excellent news for LIM. It was high time for KL to offer a competitive nonstop service to LIM. I also hope UIO/GYE will soon be operated nonstop.

If you take into account the recent expansion in flights and frequencies (e.g. GRU, SCL, EZE, CCS, and also recently GIG, MEX, BOG), it shows that AF-KL is giving major attention to the Latin American market.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 2):
I can not belive KLM will cut BON, it would be like BA would cut HKG.

Well, sorry to say, but you cannot compare BON's importance to KL at the same level of HGK to BA. This argument that airlines operations to former colonies are always profitable does not always hold.

Quoting SK601 (Reply 4):
I do the gate handling for KL741 AMS-BON-LIM quite often and usually it's 20/80. So 20% of the pax is for BON and 80% for LIM, sometimes even 10/90.

Tks for the interesting information.

Rgs,
 
rootsair
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:56 am

Yahoo! I will finally get to fly the 777! I awaited that moment ever since the 777 came out. enuff of the A340...
I might be going to LIM next October and I take this as an excellent news !
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
Avianca
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:34 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12):
Well, sorry to say, but you cannot compare BON's importance to KL at the same level of HGK to BA. This argument that airlines operations to former colonies are always profitable does not always hold.

of course BON is not the same as HKG....

This argument hold not always but mostly.... btw BON isnt a former Dutch colonie, isnt it still under Dutch flag?
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 14):
of course BON is not the same as HKG....

So we agree. All in all, as I said, LIM more than deserves KLM nonstop service.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 5):
thats about 118 pax a day from Holland, wich isnt really much ofcourse and can perfectly be handled by Bonair Express ,via CUR/AuA , wich KL has a good relationship with

Totally agree. KLM should only fly to one Ducth Caribbean destination and transfer pax to other Caribbean destinations with a regional partner.

Rgs,
 
Avianca
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 15):
So we agree. All in all, as I said, LIM more than deserves KLM nonstop service.

well KLM has not so much competition on Europe-LIM service

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 15):
Totally agree. KLM should only fly to one Ducth Caribbean destination and transfer pax to other Caribbean destinations with a regional partner.

I didnt agree, it would be to much for one airport + a problem to transfer all the passengers.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 16):
well KLM has not so much competition on Europe-LIM service

You could fly IB via MAD or many options via the US.

Why do you think that AF flies BOG nonstop? I think KL's decision is totally correct. LIM deserves nonstop operations.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 16):
it would be to much for one airport + a problem to transfer all the passengers

Disagree. Dutch Caribbean airports can handle this one daily flight easily (at least AUA or BON). Many of them were renovated and improved, including AUA which is named after Queen Beatrix (exaclty to lure KLM to continue operations there...).

The only reason why KL does not operate one single flights to one destination in the Dutch Caribbean is that it would lead to a big fight with the local administration which could end up at the Queens table.

Rgs,
 
Avianca
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 17):
You could fly IB via MAD or many options via the US.

Why do you think that AF flies BOG nonstop? I think KL's decision is totally correct. LIM deserves nonstop operations.

yes IB has a daily flight, due this I posted not so much!

and of course the options via US or even Canada, but this option is even slower than a 1-stop flight ex europe.

AF flies to BOG nonstop because they can fill the flight without any problem.... for LIM I do not know, it seems at least at the past they were not able to fill the flight alone.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 17):
Disagree. Dutch Caribbean airports can handle this one daily flight easily (at least AUA or BON). Many of them were renovated and improved, including AUA which is named after Queen Beatrix (exaclty to lure KLM to continue operations there...).

If I count all current flights to dutch caribbean airports, I think we have more than 1 daily flight or?

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
atnight
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:39 am

I would love to see a direct flight between AMS and UIO/GYE.... specially with their B777... The only downside of it would be that the "classic" MD-11 would no longer arrive to UIO... But for pax comfort and all, having a B777 service would be the best thing to happen to UIO in a long time.... Currently we have IB's A343 & A346, MN's A330s, TA's A320s, LAN's B763s, AA's B757s, CO and CM's B737s and AV's MD80s & B757s and of course, KLM's current MD11 (without counting the local airlines' classic 727 and F28s among others).
So, the only types of pax planes Ecuador lacks service of, are the 777 & 747 (The A300 goes to GYE with AA), so of the two, is very very unlikely we'll ever see a B747 service again (LH & AF used to send those in the 80s), so the only hope of a new type in the near future is the B777 with KLM.... It will be a great event!!
(BTW, did I mention that in the cargo sector, we do get the B747 and the MD-11 & DC-10s?, so technically, the only major type of aircraft missing from the picture, is the B777.... That's why I can't wait too see those here)...
B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
 
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airkas1
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 18):
If I count all current flights to dutch caribbean airports, I think we have more than 1 daily flight or?

BON has 4 daily MD-11 flights a day IIRC. CUR & AUA have 1 daily 744 I think.
Please correct me if I'm wrong
Airliners.net Crew - Head Photo Screener
 
sk601
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting AirKas1 (Reply 20):
CUR & AUA have 1 daily 744 I think

KL733 AMS-AUA is MD11 and not daily (5 x week).
KL735 AMS-CUR is daily with B747-400, (3 x week via SXM as KL785)

KL741 AMS-BON-LIM is daily with MD11
KL753 AMS-BON-GYE-UIO is 4 x week with MD11

All services going daily in the summer, except SXM (daily via CDG with AF)
 
Avianca
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting AirKas1 (Reply 20):
BON has 4 daily MD-11 flights a day IIRC. CUR & AUA have 1 daily 744 I think.
Please correct me if I'm wrong

BON has 11 weekly MD11

CUR has 9 weekly 747

AUA has 3 weekly MD11, and 2 weekly 747 (these are combined with CUR)
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 22):
BON has 11 weekly MD11

CUR has 9 weekly 747

AUA has 3 weekly MD11, and 2 weekly 747 (these are combined with CUR)

Fine, but flights operate with stop-over.

BON service would not be sustained with the continuation to LIM, GYE, UEO.
As stated above, for the LIM flight, 80 to 90% of pax are LIM-bound, only 10 to 20% are BON-bound pax.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 18):
AF flies to BOG nonstop because they can fill the flight without any problem.... for LIM I do not know, it seems at least at the past they were not able to fill the flight alone.

I imagine LIM can fill KL B777 without problem as well, otherwise KL would not plan the nonstop flight. Note that LIM will get the B777 while BOG gets AF A343.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 18):
If I count all current flights to dutch caribbean airports, I think we have more than 1 daily flight or?

My reference was to BON. Even so, in my view, 2 daily KL nonstop flights to the Ducth Caribbean (i.e. BON, CUR and AUA) would seam more than enough to take care of demand. BON service is linked to LIM/GYE/UEO, CUR to SXM and AUA (the only one not linked to any other destination) does not get daily service.

Rgs,
 
Avianca
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 23):
Fine, but flights operate with stop-over.

BON service would not be sustained with the continuation to LIM, GYE, UEO.
As stated above, for the LIM flight, 80 to 90% of pax are LIM-bound, only 10 to 20% are BON-bound pax.

it would be very intresting if also the yield for the passengers to BON is such low, I doubt it!

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 23):
I imagine LIM can fill KL B777 without problem as well, otherwise KL would not plan the nonstop flight. Note that LIM will get the B777 while BOG gets AF A343.

well for me the A343 is not a bader(smaller) product than the 777, look the smallest aircraft for such routes AMS-LIM that KL has is the B777.
+
Do not forget still is nothing confirmed, just a rumor.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 23):
CUR to SXM and AUA (the only one not linked to any other destination) does not get daily service.

not all CUR flights are linked / 3xweekly to SXM and 2xweekly to AUA the 4xweekly are nonstop.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:52 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 14):
tw BON isnt a former Dutch colonie, isnt it still under Dutch flag?

BON and CUR are the Dutch Antilles, AUA is a country in itself. Both countries still have very strong ties with the Netherlands but are independent.
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
A388
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:00 am

Interesting news. I saw this coming already. KL can easily connect their BON passengers via CUR. They airport capacity is there, especially with the new airport terminal operational this year in CUR and KL has a good relationship with Dutch Antilles Express. A friend of mine works for Dutch Antilles Express and he told me they will acquire the 737 this year or next to expand. If demand gets too high for the ATR42, Dutch Antilles Express can use the much larger 737 to operate CUR-BON a few times a week or even fly from BON to other Caribbean islands via CUR and vice versa, thereby taking KL passengers from CUR to BON. It all makes perfect sense in my opinion.

A388
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 26):
I saw this coming already. KL can easily connect their BON passengers via CUR. They airport capacity is there, especially with the new airport terminal operational this year in CUR and KL has a good relationship with Dutch Antilles Express.

Agree with your opinion. LIM nonstop was already in the pipeline for some time.

Quoting A388 (Reply 26):
. If demand gets too high for the ATR42, Dutch Antilles Express can use the much larger 737 to operate CUR-BON a few times a week or even fly from BON to other Caribbean islands via CUR and vice versa, thereby taking KL passengers from CUR to BON. It all makes perfect sense in my opinion.

Correct.
 
sxmna
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 25):
BON and CUR are the Dutch Antilles, AUA is a country in itself. Both countries still have very strong ties with the Netherlands but are independent.

In a nutshell:
The Dutch Kingdom consists of 3 countries :
1) The Netherlands
2) The Netherlands Antilles (which consists of 5 islands CUR, BON, SXM, SAB and EUX)
3) Aruba

The Antilles and Aruba can not be considered independent. Certain things are taken care of on a Kingdom level (Military / Foreign Affairs) certain things are taken care of on a local level. Ofcourse there are strong ties with the Netherlands. We are all part of the same Kingdom, we have the same nationality but we most certainly have our differences. Cheers!
 
A388
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:59 am

I would even go that far in saying that Dutch Antilles Express may also move its operations to CUR because of the larger capacity of our airport and more importantly because of the maintenance facility already there in CUR, the former DCA-facility. Dutch Antilles Express might use that hangar to maintain their entire fleet of ATR42 and 737 (if they indeed will operate them). There are also a decent amount of ex-DCA maintenance engineers on the island who wouldn't mind starting to work for an airline based in CUR as well. Bonaire Express already has changed its name to Dutch Antilles Express, so who knows this might be an indication of more things to come. CUR already has almost everything an airline needs at an airport, the new airport management is also actively looking at airlines who want to base their operations in CUR. The new terminal in CUR does need more traffic movement so attracting an known and more stable airline (like Dutch Antilles Express) would be great to the mangement and the airport in its entirety Big grin

If I was in the management of our airport I would definately work hard on bringing in Dutch Antilles Express. The combination of KLM and Dutch Antilles Express would work well for CUR as a hub Big grin

Roger
 
A342
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:27 am

Another possibility to keep BON service could be combinig it with the SXM flight (AMS-SXM-BON-AMS).
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:33 am

Quoting Sxmna (Reply 28):
The Netherlands Antilles (which consists of 5 islands CUR, BON, SXM, SAB and EUX)

Thx, I forgot all about the last 3  sorry  AUA has status aparte, that's what I was trying to say.

Quoting Sxmna (Reply 28):
We are all part of the same Kingdom

But years ago I tried to move to CUR and it was not possible for a plain Dutch citizen...
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
mauriceb
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:35 am

Totally agree. KLM should only fly to one Ducth Caribbean destination and transfer pax to other Caribbean destinations with a regional partner.

Indeed, also when looking at airport facility's and max Payload CUR gives KLM lots of advatages above BON.

Bonaire Express already has changed its name to Dutch Antilles Express, so who knows this might be an indication of more things to come.

Yup, they are doing quite good and are almost done with everything that the Exel group had left. (except the colours, wich i guess will be painted directly with the overhaul)


Although the plans for cutting BON were there already for a very long time, it seems that they are finally doing this. It will be good for KLM, but i find it very sad for Bonaire . After they lost theire hospital (whent banckrupt) they will now also lose theire 2nd biggest employer (after vdv hotels)
 
A388
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:44 am

Hey MauriceB,

I totally agree with you, it's sad news for BON but there's not much we can do about it unfortunately. CUR also felt it when KL left and when DCA went bankrupt the aviation here totally collapsed with very little aircraft movement here. Fortunately it is now slowly increasing again but we also need all the traffic we can get.

A388
 
AA B777-200
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:14 pm

Hey guys!

Well, that nonstop flight to LIM has always been on KLM's wishlist and if it's not this summer's end, trust me, some day it'll be there!
I think it's a good move for both KLM and Peru.

And yes, also a sad story for Bonaire. KLM crews have a significant presence on the island and those BON operations have definitely boosted tourism.

But BON has never had any dedicated service. When KLM started flying to BON it was a stop on the AMS-CUR run or an extension of the AMS-CCS flight.
I'm sure that if KLM moves UIO/GYE operations to CUR (or AUA) they'll try to keep BON in its network, maybe a stop before flying to CUR, twice a week or something.
But then again, if joint ventures increase with DAE, why bother landing a 747 or MD11 there just to drop of 30 passengers or so?

A combination of SXM and BON as stated by A342 would be another option. But I don't see KLM boosting any seats to SXM. They're doing just fine now, simply a stop on the AMS-CUR stretch. No crew change, no catering, just some fuel, cheap (AF) handling...That's it.

The only problem with UIO/GYE's operation via CUR would be the number of seats being sold on the AMS-CUR stretch. There's almost no demand for seats ex-CUR to Ecuador so every seat you sell to CUR on that specific flight, would mean another open seat from CUR to Ecuador.
And with BON having less demand compared to AUA or CUR, the current operation allows KLM to sell more seats to Ecuador.

[Edited 2006-02-05 09:15:00]
 
A388
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:51 pm

Quoting AA B777-200 (Reply 34):
The only problem with UIO/GYE's operation via CUR would be the number of seats being sold on the AMS-CUR stretch. There's almost no demand for seats ex-CUR to Ecuador so every seat you sell to CUR on that specific flight, would mean another open seat from CUR to Ecuador.
And with BON having less demand compared to AUA or CUR, the current operation allows KLM to sell more seats to Ecuador.

You are absolutely right, that's why I think the flight to UIO/GYE via either CUR or AUA will also not last long. As soon as KL has more 777s available, they will most likely fly that route nonstop too if demand increases. But centralizing Caribbean operations on CUR or AUA would be better instead of BON as demand from AMS to CUR/AUA is much higher. Demand to BON is just too low, making so many flights to BON inefficient in my opinion. BON can easily be fed through CUR.

Roger
 
AA B777-200
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:30 pm

Well Rodge,

We'll see what BlueBird decides to do. There's been some discussions on that nonstop UIO/GYE 777, but that's not the top priority now, I think.
Ofcourse KLM can also decide to route that MD11 via CUR and put a maximum number of seats on sale for that AMS-CUR portion.
Then when the flight's not full, allow a few waitlist pax and Non-Revs on.

Ayo!
Robin
 
Billy
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:55 pm

BON kept KLM operations on the back of a fuel sweetheart deal. Ironic given the fuel was refined in CUR and shipped to the BON fuel farm that they had to build to support the deal.
 
A342
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting AA B777-200 (Reply 34):
A combination of SXM and BON as stated by A342 would be another option. But I don't see KLM boosting any seats to SXM. They're doing just fine now, simply a stop on the AMS-CUR stretch. No crew change, no catering, just some fuel, cheap (AF) handling...That's it.

I wasn´t talking about offering more seats to SXM. CUR is strong on its own, so why place the stop on the SXM-AMS route in CUR ? SXM-AMS nonstop isn´t viable due to payload restrictions. So why not make it AMS-SXM-BON-AMS in order to keep service to BON ? 118 pax/day doesn´t sound so bad, even with seasonal differences. They could also use smaller aircraft than the 747, maybe the MD-11 or even A332. This way they might increase frequency to SXM.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Avianca
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:31 am

well I am asking me, if BON is currently such a "small" destination for KLM why then they are currently 11 x weekly stopovers via BON and not for example only the UIO/GYE flight?

regards
Avianca
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AA B777-200
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:17 am

Avianca,

As Billy said, good fuel deals on BON. Don't forget that KLM also had catering problems on CUR and the 747s had to carry the catering for the return CUR-AMS stretch in its belly (read : less cargo space). At BON, they opened a complete new catering facilty!
CUR has also been in the spotlight with drug trafficing problems.
 
Billy
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:56 am

There is a new catering JV with KLM on CUR which should sort out the catering issue.
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 32):
ndeed, also when looking at airport facility's and max Payload CUR gives KLM lots of advatages above BON.

Tks for the interesting insight.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 32):
Although the plans for cutting BON were there already for a very long time, it seems that they are finally doing this.

Indeed. I think BON was still in the network for political (i.e. royal) issues and the lack of a reliable regional partner.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 32):
It will be good for KLM, but i find it very sad for Bonaire

Agree, but business is business and the current KL flight arrangement to the Dutch Caribbean was not sustainable. With AF in KL management it was a matter of time for changes in the region.

Quoting AA B777-200 (Reply 34):
Well, that nonstop flight to LIM has always been on KLM's wishlist and if it's not this summer's end, trust me, some day it'll be there!
I think it's a good move for both KLM and Peru

No doubt about it! LIM has all the conditions to get KL daily nonstop flights.

I would go further and say that UEO/GYE also have the conditions to get KL nonstop. As A388 mentioned above, with more B777 and A330 arriving in KL fleet, it will be a natural development.

Btw, what about KL's service to Surinam? I've hear some rumours that change on this flight was also expected. Anyone with info? Is KL still condesharing this route with the local partner?

Rgs,
 
globetrekker
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:12 pm

One must remember that there was a point when BON had NO direct KLM link. If you wanted to get to BON, pax would have to fly to CUR and then transfer to ALM Antillean to BON. Like AA B777-200 stated above prior to the AMS-BON-LIM and AMS-BON-UIO/GYE flights, BON only had a few flights routed via CCS and later one or two 747 flights a week routed through CUR. On the rest of the days pax would connect in AUA or CUR with ALM Antillean. This meant not a lot of money was spent in BON on the flights as everything was mainly done in CUR. So if they take away the flights it would indeed save a lot on cost.

I used to work for KLM on the ABC islands (mainly AUA). These are some of the costs involved by routing the LIM and UIO/GYE flights through BON:

  • Landing fees
  • Fueling fees
  • Handling fees; ground handling, catering, cleaning etc.
  • hotel fees for crew; LIM crew stay in a different hotel than the UIO/GYE crew
  • fees for having local KLM representatives in BON and more.......


AUA, BON and CUR at one point or another all had the LIM and UIO/GYE flights. When KLM announced it wanted to move to BON a bidding war started between the three islands on these "tail-end" flights. BON won, because it was the cheapest island to operate the flights through. This of course was before KLM had the 777. Of course KLM put down some conditions and a major one was a facility for transit pax, runway extension etc. Would that have secured BON forever? No! KLM main aim is to make money and they'll do whatever is needed to achieve that. If a route can be operated cheaper or is lost making, they will drop it or change it. Money talks! CUR is the cash cow of the 3 islands, but to route all Caribbean flight to CUR only, is simply not possible at this time. Unlike AF with the French Caribbean (Continuité Territoriale), KLM has no obligations to maintain flights to the Dutch Caribbean. Besides KLM, ArkeFly (TUI Holland) also flies to AUA and CUR 4x weekly with a 767.

KLM is happy with the direct services to AUA (KL733/734) and CUR (KL735/736). Capacity can be adjusted to AUA and CUR when necessary (MD11 or 744), depending on the seasons and sometimes combining AUA and CUR on one flight (KL781 or KL783). Extra flights are added during peak periods (carnival, summer vacation and X-mas) to comply with the extra demand.

KLM tried a non-stop MD11 to SXM and that turned out to be a disaster and was soon after cancelled. A non-stop BON would never work either. Maybe a combo SXM-BON would not work. To operae that route, would mean that crew would have to lay-over in BON, which in turn means $$$$! Makes no sense, in my opinion. KLM's SXM-CUR flights are doing well and pax can also fly via CDG on AF.

Quoting SK601 (Reply 1):
Will KL start a cooperation with 9H (again) for the demand to BON?

Did they ever stop the cooperation with 9H? I recently read this article

Quoting SK601 (Reply 4):
I do the gate handling for KL741 AMS-BON-LIM quite often and usually it's 20/80. So 20% of the pax is for BON and 80% for LIM, sometimes even 10/90.

Those numbers seem about correct. I did the opposite KL742 ex-BON and the most work agents did on those flights were with transit pax. I had times when 0-10 pax checked in at BON in either directions.

Quoting AA B777-200 (Reply 40):
Avianca,

As Billy said, good fuel deals on BON. Don't forget that KLM also had catering problems on CUR and the 747s had to carry the catering for the return CUR-AMS stretch in its belly (read : less cargo space). At BON, they opened a complete new catering facilty!

The deal was offered in one package. Hotels, crew transfer, fuel, ground handling etc. Fuel is being shipped from Valero Oil Refinary in Aruba.

The McDonald's incident as it was called; the catering incident was caused by the fall-out of ALM and KLM, with a dispute of who owned the catering building. In the end KLM bought its own buidling back and set up a joint venture with Goddard catering to provide catering for KLM and other airlines. They also work together in BON. Read about it here.

Cheers!
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kappel
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 42):
Btw, what about KL's service to Surinam? I've hear some rumours that change on this flight was also expected. Anyone with info? Is KL still condesharing this route with the local partner?

The summer schedule shows it as a 744 flight, I believe 4 times weekly, in stead of the current 3. It was rumored to be "downgraded" to the MD-11, but turned out to be false.
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rootsair
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:11 am

Just booked my flight GVA-AMS-LIM on Otober 3rd

and LIM-AMS-GVA on October 25 th .... hopefully I will fly the 777 !!!!
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
A300 American
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:16 am

This is indeed great news!! However, I believe that KLM is the only operator that brings the MD11 to Lima. When they change to the triple 7, no more MD11  Sad ............or am I wrong??

Who else is bringing the triple 7 to LIM?? I could`ve sworn that VARIG WAS using thier triple 7s to LIMA, (not now, i think they are using the 757s to and from Rio).

Also, it is the only direct flight to the carribean. I was on this flight in March of 2004, EXCELLENT SERVICE!!!!!!
 
anxebla
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:22 am

Quoting KLMCedric (Thread starter):
KLM will introduce non-stop 772ER service to Lima.

...Over a daily service basis?

Quoting KLMCedric (Thread starter):
You can choose to believe me or not.

Don't worry, I believe you  Wink And sometimes sources may not disclosed, specially if you work in this industry, the aviation business.

Quoting A300 American (Reply 46):
not now, i think they are using the 757s to and from Rio

Are there flights from LIM to GRU? If yes, can you say me what equipment is being used? Thanks in advance.
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A388
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:06 pm

Wjen looking at the current developments surrounding KLM and Dutch Antilles Express it wouldn't surprise me if both airlines will move to CUR and join forces there by creating a small hub and spoke system from CUR. As mentioned CUR is the cashcow for these airlines, offers a bigger airport with lots of room for expansion and the local market is bigger which may not be that important but it does give you the additional cash.

Why operate from an airport which needs additional building for an airline to expand (Dutch Antilles Express in BON) while you have an airport very close by that has all the facilities you need as an airline? Dutch Antilles Express can expand and maintain their aircraft in CUR which is exactly what the airline might be looking for. With our new airport terminal almost ready, the airport management will be looking for airlines to use it. KLM and Dutch Antilles Express in my opinion are very attractive airlines in this case.

Regards,

A388
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM Non-stop To LIM By Summer's End!

Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:19 pm

Quoting Anxebla (Reply 47):
Are there flights from LIM to GRU? If yes, can you say me what equipment is being used? Thanks in advance

Anxebla: Yes, there are flights LIM-GRU as follows:

VARIG B757 LIM-GRU-GIG daily, C/Y.
TACA A320 LIM-GRU daily, C/Y (in full codeshare with TAM)

And:

LAN Peru B762ER LIM-GRU 6 x week, C/Y (starting 22 March/06)

press release:
http://www.lan.com/promociones/data/sudamerica/pe/br/saopaulo.html

thread:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2573215

So, in total, 20 weekly nonstop LIM-GRU flights. No bad at all. And TAM is planning to start flights with its own aircraft some time in 2006/2007.

Rgs,

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