dalneighbor
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DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:40 pm

Instead of handing out refund checks at the end of the year, DFW might want to consider keeping surpluses in some years to build a reserve for years like this one. I believe DAL has done just that and helped eliminate the volatility in airport costs that are passed to the airlines. Seems DFW management could learn a thing or two from the well run DAL.

Full Story: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...s.ART.State.Edition2.1da86ae3.html


American Airlines Inc. and other carriers may have to kick in more money to cover expenses at Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport because of a projected revenue shortfall, officials said Thursday.

The lighter revenue, expected to be as much as $39 million below expectations, or 6 percent, is largely the result of airlines cutting back their schedules at D/FW.....

....Airport staff members couldn't recall if the airport has ever had to go to carriers for a significant cash infusion to cover expenses. Officials said they hope they can eliminate the shortfall by Sept. 30, when D/FW's fiscal year ends.....

....Budgets would be tightened where possible, and some capital projects may be deferred. Another option might be to raise landing fees, a move that would require airline approval.....

.....For much of D/FW's history, the so-called signatory airlines have received an annual refund check.

Even after the 9/11 attacks, which caused a dramatic decline in revenue, D/FW was able to slash its costs and offer carriers a $2.8 million refund. Last year, the airport refunded $12.8 million.....
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
dalneighbor
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:46 pm

Meanwhile.......
DFW airport board sets a budget for $1.3 million in upgrades to the 6 month old airport hotel.

Full Story: http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/13763146.htm

This just about says it all:

But board members Pamela Dunlop-Gates and Santiago Salinas complained that there wasn't enough detail on the proposed changes.

"We have no idea where all this money is going," Salinas said.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
cjpark
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:48 am

Isn't this exactly what the airport predicted would happen when airlines reduced service at DFW to compete with WN at DAL?
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
nateDAL
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 2):
Isn't this exactly what the airport predicted would happen when airlines reduced service at DFW to compete with WN at DAL?

You are right.

All the troubles at DFW are because of the 10 flights AA is adding at DAL.  rotfl 
Set Love Free
 
dalneighbor
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:59 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 2):
Isn't this exactly what the airport predicted would happen when airlines reduced service at DFW to compete with WN at DAL?


Oh, I see. DAL revenue shortfalls are a result of bad management and not flight reductions sine 9/11. DFW shortfalls are not a result of bad management, but from flight reductions from one airline that was forced to move 16 flights to DAL.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
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casinterest
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:04 am

Hmm, the revenue shortfall must be because of everyone going to DAL.

It cannot possibly be the fact that Delta pulled out most of their flights.
It cannot possibly be because DFW opened a whole NEW fricken concourse.
It cannot possibly be because oil has gone so high that airlines have to reduce capacity to drive up fares.

Nope DFW's woes are all because of WN and DAL.


Sarcasm aside, if Wright gets lifted DFW is going to bleed like a pig.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:06 am

This financial problem is due to two things...

--Bye Bye Delta

and

--Huge expensive, white-elephant international terminal that is quite impressive asthetically, but chronically under-utilized and questionable in its necessity.

This has nothing to do with AA moving a tiny fraction of flights to DAL. Besides, this "move" to DAL is pending right now, and wouldn't have an effect on the earlier financial performance of DFW anyway.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
AAtakeMeAway
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:14 am

What were the NW and TZ reductions the DMN article refers to
 
texdravid
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 6):
This financial problem is due to two things...

--Bye Bye Delta

and

--Huge expensive, white-elephant international terminal that is quite impressive asthetically, but chronically under-utilized and questionable in its necessity.

Quite well said. Boy, those international airlines are just lining up to offer passenger service to DFW, right?  Yeah sure

When 9/11 happened, DFW should have just stopped the Terminal D effort right away.

Airports like DFW, DEN, etc are airports that carriers expand into when the going is good, and when things are rough, like now, are the first airports to feel the squeeze. People will always want to fly to LAX, ORD, and JFK, however.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
dalneighbor
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 8):
Quite well said. Boy, those international airlines are just lining up to offer passenger service to DFW, right?

When 9/11 happened, DFW should have just stopped the Terminal D effort right away.

Airports like DFW, DEN, etc are airports that carriers expand into when the going is good, and when things are rough, like now, are the first airports to feel the squeeze. People will always want to fly to LAX, ORD, and JFK, however.

The irony of traffic declines at DFW is that DFW management's efforts to stifle competition at DAL creates a high fare scenario at DFW thereby further suppressing traffic.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 5):
Sarcasm aside, if Wright gets lifted DFW is going to bleed like a pig.

And that is supposedly a good thing?

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 8):
When 9/11 happened, DFW should have just stopped the Terminal D effort right away.

And what? Cancel contracts, not finish the people mover leaving shells behind to be later completed at twice the cost?

Try thinking first.

[Edited 2006-02-03 21:48:55]
 
cjpark
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RE: A New Twist On The Wright Amendment Debate

Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 4):
Oh, I see. DAL revenue shortfalls are a result of bad management and not flight reductions sine 9/11. DFW shortfalls are not a result of bad management, but from flight reductions from one airline that was forced to move 16 flights to DAL.

No the Dallas Aviation Department is being investigated for more than low landing fees. Leases at the airport for some tenants have not been re negoiated in years. Some have been month to month for 20 or more years.

This points to massive miss management of the value of DAL. Or it only points out that the value of the leases is not there. If the value is not present then the current state of the finances at DAL suggest collusion with the largest tenant of the airport. They cannot afford to anger WN or WN is dictating terms to the city.

Notice that DFW is up front about the need to raise fees to cover expenses and so far the main tenant has not said it would protest unlike your favorite airline at DAL.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
dalneighbor
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:09 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 11):
Notice that DFW is up front about the need to raise fees to cover expenses and so far the main tenant has not said it would protest unlike your favorite airline at DAL.

Another lie. WN has not protested the proposed 64% rate hike. What they have protested is the suggestion that landing fees should be raised to some average rate that illegally increases revenue higher than is necessary to operate the airport. DFW's landing fees are much lower than ORD and DEN, maybe DFW should raise it's landing fees to match the average for airports of similar size.

DAL doesn't need higher landing fees, they need more traffic. It was the decrease in flight activity that precipitated the decrease in revenue.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
saxman66
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 10):
Sarcasm aside, if Wright gets lifted DFW is going to bleed like a pig.
And that is supposedly a good thing?

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 8):When 9/11 happened, DFW should have just stopped the Terminal D effort right away.
And what? Cancel contracts, not finish the people mover leaving shells behind to be later completed at twice the cost?

Try thinking first.

Well said Boeing 7E7. It's a little hard to just stop things when they are already underway. Even a few years after 9/11 traffic was going strong at DFW. What do you do, when Delta de-hubs DFW 4 months before opening day?
Ride Amtrak!
 
DFW13L
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:16 am

Quoting AAtakeMeAway (Reply 7):
What were the NW and TZ reductions the DMN article refers to

Not sure either, but I know for sure that NW (Pinnacle) dropped the DFW-IND service a couple months ago. Also, TZ used to have DFW-IND service on a 737-800 but dropped it, though that was about a year ago on TZ.
See, I knew American Eagle was first class all along!
 
airstatdfw
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:11 pm

Quoting AAtakeMeAway (Reply 7):
What were the NW and TZ reductions the DMN article refers to

NW dropped IND-DFW and TZ dropped IND-DFW and reduced MDW-DFW from 5 to 3 a day.

AirStatDFW
 
texdravid
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:37 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 10):
And what? Cancel contracts, not finish the people mover leaving shells behind to be later completed at twice the cost?

Try thinking first

Try thinking first, yourself. Sept 11, 2001 happened approximately one year after groundbreaking of Terminal D. Completion wasn't scheduled until 2005.

At that early time, DFW officials could have easily turned the project into something more viable and cost-effective. It could have completed later if conditions warranted. Other airports either shelved or scaled back their projects after 9/11. Not DFW, and now look at the costs vs. benefit ratio. What new airline has moved in? Where is EVA, CX, AF, or Qantas?

Other the other hand, DL has closed its hub, and Mexicana has stopped flying here totally.

What DFW needed in the late 90's and early 2000's was not a new terminal, but through and through improvements over the tiring facades and walkways of the existing terminals.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
cjpark
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:42 pm

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 12):
Another lie. WN has not protested the proposed 64% rate hike. What they have protested is the suggestion that landing fees should be raised to some average rate that illegally increases revenue higher than is necessary to operate the airport. DFW's landing fees are much lower than ORD and DEN, maybe DFW should raise it's landing fees to match the average for airports of similar size.

DAL doesn't need higher landing fees, they need more traffic. It was the decrease in flight activity that precipitated the decrease in revenue.

Your right DAL does not need higher landing fees. It needs to be shut down period.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
dalneighbor
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 17):
Your right DAL does not need higher landing fees. It needs to be shut down period.

That's about as good an idea as a fart in a spacesuit.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
N839MH
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:10 am

Maybe instead of DFW spending all their money on signs and stickers
supporting "Southwest @ DFW, together we're stronger," maybe they
should have started years ago by supporting the carriers other than
AA. Maybe "Delta@DFW, keeps DFW stronger" or any of the other
airlines which were flying out DFW.

DFW doesn't need Southwest, it needs better management. DFW board
needs to fire Kevin Cox, Jeff Fegan and his cronies. One airline i.e Southwest
is not going to make up for the poor business decisions made by a bunch
of idiots at DFW.

If the Kansai airport (2nd highest airport operating cost in the world) can
make it without Southwest, than maybe with the right people running
DFW and not sleeping with the largest airline (AA) management...maybe
even DFW could survive.

"Getting rid of Cox & Fegan @ DFW, will make DFW stronger!"
Solodude!
 
dalneighbor
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting N839mh (Reply 19):
Maybe instead of DFW spending all their money on signs and stickers
supporting "Southwest @ DFW, together we're stronger," maybe they
should have started years ago by supporting the carriers other than
AA. Maybe "Delta@DFW, keeps DFW stronger" or any of the other
airlines which were flying out DFW.

DFW doesn't need Southwest, it needs better management. DFW board
needs to fire Kevin Cox, Jeff Fegan and his cronies. One airline i.e Southwest
is not going to make up for the poor business decisions made by a bunch
of idiots at DFW.

DING! When is DFW management going to be held accountable for creating a competitive environment where one airline has more than 85% of the market? That is absolutely unacceptable in a market the size of Dallas-Ft. Worth.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
texdravid
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:12 am

Quoting N839mh (Reply 19):
DFW doesn't need Southwest, it needs better management. DFW board
needs to fire Kevin Cox, Jeff Fegan and his cronies. One airline i.e Southwest
is not going to make up for the poor business decisions made by a bunch
of idiots at DFW.

Bingo!
DFW management is pathetic and unbecoming of a top 10 airport.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
SPREE34
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:07 am

N839mh, DALNeighbor, Texdravid,

Let me see if I have this right. You believe those in charge of a given operation should be held accountable for that operations success or failure. Really earn their pay? You mean if they don't get the job done fire them!?! WOW, that's cool.
Wait.....couldn't they just cut the pay of all of the little people and make it look like they made money? Then they could give themselves a bonus. Nah, that would never work. (tongue firmly in cheek)

Nice post gentlemen.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
cjpark
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:35 am

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 20):
DING! When is DFW management going to be held accountable for creating a competitive environment where one airline has more than 85% of the market? That is absolutely unacceptable in a market the size of Dallas-Ft. Worth.

Then by your logic the Aviation Department of Dallas should be held accountable for letting WN control 98% of the market at DAL?

Remember there is more than one airline at DFW that competes with AA. There is just one at DAL running RJ's to an airport that WN does not serve.

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 18):
That's about as good an idea as a fart in a spacesuit.

Somehow I actually think you would know all about farting in a space suit.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
SPREE34
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 23):
Then by your logic the Aviation Department of Dallas should be held accountable for letting WN control 98% of the market at DAL?

Come on Cj, you know nobody has LET SWA control 98% of the market at DAL. the TRUTH is no other carrier cares to operate there. If they did I'm sure the DAL port authority would welcome their money.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 23):
Remember there is more than one airline at DFW that competes with AA. There is just one at DAL running RJ's to an airport that WN does not serve.


So the one carrier there (DAL) doesn't care about SWA, just catching their own hub feed from that (DAL) end of town. Oh my! Good customer service!! That one carriers customers don't have to drive/cab/bus from downtown over to the Mighty DFW to fly their preferred carrier.
As for the many other carriers competing with AAL at DFW. There would be MORE if the management at DFW could offer that great buy on gates without the strings attached. But no, DFW had to offer the gates at a great price to the carrier who would fly when and where DFW specified. Any surprise there were no takers? Why would DFW want to specify where/when an airline could fly? Do they specify these items to AAL? It's bad enough a new entrant has to compete with an airline (AAL) with a history of illegal anti-competitive behavior, but to have the port authority in on it, give me a break. I wonder. I wonder if MIA,FLL, or PBI tell their tenants where and when they can fly?
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
SPREE34
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:20 am

Screw DFW. Let them go bankrupt, then contract to place out to BAA. They seem to find a way to run airports without kissing any one carriers empennage.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
dalneighbor
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 23):
Then by your logic the Aviation Department of Dallas should be held accountable for letting WN control 98% of the market at DAL?

I would absolutely hold them accountable if WN controled 98% of an unrestricted DAL. Given the severity of Wright restrictions in place their hands are tied. They are doing a great job to even have two airlines, soon to be three, operating out of an airport that can only serve 9 states.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
cjpark
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RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:03 pm

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 26):
I would absolutely hold them accountable if WN controled 98% of an unrestricted DAL. Given the severity of Wright restrictions in place their hands are tied. They are doing a great job to even have two airlines, soon to be three, operating out of an airport that can only serve 9 states.

The Dallas Aviation Department is being investigated for mismanagement of DAL by the Dallas City Auditor. DAL was kept open for one airline by Court Ruling. Ergo WN was the only beneficary of said ruling. They have that 98% of DAL by their own machinations.

DFW officials are not being investigated at all. So why don't you call for an investigation at DFW and see if you can prove your accusations.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
dalneighbor
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Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 27):
The Dallas Aviation Department is being investigated for mismanagement of DAL by the Dallas City Auditor. DAL was kept open for one airline by Court Ruling. Ergo WN was the only beneficary of said ruling. They have that 98% of DAL by their own machinations.

DFW officials are not being investigated at all. So why don't you call for an investigation at DFW and see if you can prove your accusations.

You accused DAL of mismanagement because of the deficit and below average landing fees. So when DFW runs a deficit, why don't you apply the same litmus test to DFW management? Do you believe DFW is a well run airport?
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
cjpark
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RE: A New Twist On The Wright Amendment Debate

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:41 pm

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 28):
You accused DAL of mismanagement because of the deficit and below average landing fees. So when DFW runs a deficit, why don't you apply the same litmus test to DFW management? Do you believe DFW is a well run airport?

I did not accuse DAL of mismanagement only echoed the charge made by the Dallas City Council. Besides there have been two articles in the Dallas Morning News concerning DAL's management. There is more to the Dallas Aviation Department woes than deficits and landing fees. The City Auditors office is performing the investigation into finances and operating practices at DAL.


Yes DFW is a well run airport. After all have they been accused of mismanagement by anybody that matters?
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
N839MH
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: DFW In The RED-Raising Landing Fees?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:59 pm

Bottom line...DFW's Fegan & Cox need to be fired from DFW!

DFW needs to take control of their own problems and expenditures
and move on without Southwest. They're too concerned about
an airline which does not want to fly in/out of this airport, meanwhile
more airlines keep leaving or cutting flights. How stupid is that?

And the other thing...Set Love Free...let the chips fall where they may,
and DFW will survive...as long as the airport board realize they can't
do it with the two bafoons running it...

"Without Fegan & Cox @ DFW...DFW becomes stronger"
Solodude!