boeingfever777
Posts: 1990
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A few questions regarding Delivery Flights?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:42 am

I wanted to know when A or B delivery aircraft to there customer do they have test pilots fly them there or does the carrier send a flight crew to the place of pick-up to pilot the a/c home? Also does the carrier change the reg# before departure or once they are ready to introduce the a/c into there fleet for commercial service?

Thanks,
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
GSM763
Posts: 573
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A few questions regarding Delivery Flights?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:55 am

It's generaly a flight crew from the Airline. They will be flown out then fly the aircraft back (possibly with a number of stops depending on A/C type).
 
jetstar
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A few questions regarding Delivery Flights?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:49 am

Normally after the new airplane is test flown for about 20 hours or so and all outstanding items are cleared up, the manufacturer will sign over the airplane to an airline company representative after verification that final payment has been received. The airplane is now the possession of the airline and the airlines company pilots will then fly the airplane out.

The airplane is usually flown to the airlines main base, or a large hub station where all company supplied items, like galley and cabin supplies, manuals etc. are loaded on and then the airplane is placed into revenue service, usually 24 to 48 hours after delivery.

I am sure that if no airline pilots are available, the manufacturer for a fee can supply pilots to fly the airplane to wherever the airline wants it delivered.

In some cases with corporate jets, for tax purposes the manufacturer will fly the airplane to a different state and then sign the papers and turn the airplane over to the new owners.
 
RichardPrice
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A few questions regarding Delivery Flights?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:14 am

Quoting GSM763 (Reply 1):
(possibly with a number of stops depending on A/C type)

Ok, supplimentry question. ETOPS certification is based on an airlines maintenance record with a type, so what if Qantas (for example) takes on a brand new type (the 787?) and need to fly it to Australia - how does the ETOPS system work in that case, or does it not affect flights with no passengers onboard?
 
AMSSFO
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A few questions regarding Delivery Flights?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:16 am

Quoting Jetstar (Reply 2):
I am sure that if no airline pilots are available, the manufacturer for a fee can supply pilots to fly the airplane to wherever the airline wants it delivered.

There are also companies that ferry aircraft to any place in the world. One of them is Southern Cross Aviation http://www.southernx.com/about.php3
 
Bluewave 707
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A few questions regarding Delivery Flights?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:10 pm

For delivery flights that stop @ HNL, they use the airline's pilots. Their accent is a giveaway. Most airlines use their callsigns (QF, CS, CA, MU, and FM) especially if they have assigned flight #s. Other airlines (SC, HU, and BC) use their registration as their callsign. The ones that pass through HNL to their new homes are registerd in their new homeland.
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
EMBQA
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A few questions regarding Delivery Flights?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:58 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 3):
Ok, supplementary question. ETOPS certification is based on an airlines maintenance record with a type, so what if Qantas (for example) takes on a brand new type (the 787?) and need to fly it to Australia - how does the ETOPS system work in that case, or does it not affect flights with no passengers onboard?

First, ETOPS is not based off an airlines maintenace record with a type, but more so the overall performance and reliability of the type. ETOPS is also established before an aircraft even goes into revenue service. Before UAL flew its first passenger on the Boeing 777 it had flow hundreds and hundreds of hours on 'Proving Runs' to meet the FAA requirements of ETOPS. One of the last things they did was to fly back and forth from SFO to HNL and prove they had the resources to do it. If you can watch 'Boeing 777- The 21st Centurey Jet' do so. They talk at length about this.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
APFPilot1985
Posts: 1840
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A few questions regarding Delivery Flights?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:03 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
First, ETOPS is not based off an airlines maintenace record with a type, but more so the overall performance and reliability of the type.

of course it is, why would some airlines have ETOPS on 757 and 737 but not others? Because they certify their operations for ETOPS on those types. You just really contradicted yourself.

[Edited 2006-02-04 11:04:00]
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Tifoso
Posts: 432
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A few questions regarding Delivery Flights?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:13 pm

Does the manufacturer deliver the jet with a full fuel tank, or does the airline pay for it? Big grin
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

A few questions regarding Delivery Flights?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 7):
You just really contradicted yourself.

No I did not. The way his question was worded it was based on the singular airline. I'm saying its based off the whole worldwide fleet. Basicly.... When Qantas takes delivery of its 787's all the requirements for ETOPS will have already been met by Boeing during flight test and the aircraft will be delivered and certified as ETOPS.

[Edited 2006-02-04 15:05:26]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
A319XFW
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:41 am

A few questions regarding Delivery Flights?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:09 pm

Quoting Tifoso (Reply 8):
Does the manufacturer deliver the jet with a full fuel tank, or does the airline pay for it?

It depends where the aircraft is flying to. Some A320 Family aircraft are filled up to the brim - then they fly direct to North America (or some stop over in Prestwick or Keflavik). For instance a new America West aircraft flew 'green' to Bangor and then to Roswell, New Mexico for painting in the new colours.

Another airline that does it differently is easyJet - sometimes the aircraft is in revenue service within 30 mins of landing at its base apparently!

But I don't know who pays for the fuel!
 
EZYAirbus
Posts: 2322
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:57 am

RE: Delivery Flight?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 11):
Another airline that does it differently is easyJet - sometimes the aircraft is in revenue service within 30 mins of landing at its base apparently!

Quickest ive seen is a 737 in service 3 hours after delivery from Seattle!

As for the A319s it might be quicker, not too sure though!

Glenn
http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
 
A319XFW
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:41 am

RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting EZYAirbus (Reply 12):
As for the A319s it might be quicker, not too sure though!

Sometimes full crews come to XFW to prep the aircraft and be ready at base.
There are even easyJet "Customer Acceptance Flights" without the customer!

OTOH some customers come with 10-20 people and then on the flight home take along lots of German 'goodies' Big grin
 
474218
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 7):
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
First, ETOPS is not based off an airlines maintenace record with a type, but more so the overall performance and reliability of the type.

of course it is, why would some airlines have ETOPS on 757 and 737 but not others? Because they certify their operations for ETOPS on those types. You just really contradicted yourself.

Once a aircraft type has been certified for ETOPS it still can not be used for ETOPS until the operators airplane flight manuals (AFM) have been updated to allow for ETOPS. The AFM is written and maintained by the manufacture if an operator has a need for ETOPS they must have the manufacture revise the AFM, and the manufacture charges them for it. The operator may have 50 767's in there fleet but only those aircraft with serial numbers listed in the AFM as being ETOPS certified can be used for ETOPS.
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
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RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
First, ETOPS is not based off an airlines maintenace record with a type, but more so the overall performance and reliability of the type. ETOPS is also established before an aircraft even goes into revenue service. Before UAL flew its first passenger on the Boeing 777 it had flow hundreds and hundreds of hours on 'Proving Runs' to meet the FAA requirements of ETOPS. One of the last things they did was to fly back and forth from SFO to HNL and prove they had the resources to do it. If you can watch 'Boeing 777- The 21st Centurey Jet' do so. They talk at length about this.



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):
No I did not. The way his question was worded it was based on the singular airline. I'm saying its based off the whole worldwide fleet. Basicly.... When Qantas takes delivery of its 787's all the requirements for ETOPS will have already been met by Boeing during flight test and the aircraft will be delivered and certified as ETOPS.

There are two levels of ETOPS certification, the first is the ETOPS type approval, and the second is the ETOPS operational approval and an airline needs to have both to fly ETOPS flights. The type approval is gained by the manufacturer based on tests etc, while the operational approval needs to be gained by the airline or operator (as the name suggests), this is by no means a guaranteed thing jsut because the type is certified.

Operational Approval certification needs to satisfy the operators countries regulators that the airline itself can maintain an aircraft in order to comply with ETOPS capability as per type. If an operator has a lot of experience with long range operations already, this may be a simple formality that can be based on the performance of other types in the operators fleet. If they dont, then the operator needs to perform ETOPS proving flights with the type they want approval on.

There, answered my own question and the answer bears little resemblence to your answer.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:31 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):
When Qantas takes delivery of its 787's all the requirements for ETOPS will have already been met by Boeing during flight test and the aircraft will be delivered and certified as ETOPS.

Again wrong, QF will not be able to operate the 787 ETOPS until their operation as well as the A?C has been certified as ETOPS
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spencer
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RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:15 pm

Two flights that Boeing call the B1 and C1 are the first flight (Boeing's) and the first flight (Customer's) resp. After the signing and handing over of flight deck keys, the customer will then take the aircraft for its C1. Normally a Chief Pilot of the purchasing airline will fly. The aircraft will be thoroughly looked over prior to take off however.
Spencer.
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A319XFW
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RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:39 pm

Quoting Spencer (Reply 17):
handing over of flight deck keys,

Flight deck keys??
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13075
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:00 pm

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 18):
Flight deck keys??

It's probably a symbolic thing. Just remember the day you bought a car and you get the car keys, which means the car is yours. It's probably the same with those so-called flight deck keys. I saw this key handover once on the Discovery Channel. It was a brandnew 757 being delivered to TZ. They signed the papers (I assume payment was also confirmed), the keys were handed over and after that, it was time for the acceptance flight by the customer. I don't remember the name of that show though, but it was pretty much on TZ ops.
 
A319XFW
Posts: 1519
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RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:17 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 19):
They signed the papers (I assume payment was also confirmed), the keys were handed over and after that, it was time for the acceptance flight by the customer.

You mean delivery flight, as I doubt a customer would want to check their aircraft after they have paid for it...
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4348
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:23 pm

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 16):
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):
When Qantas takes delivery of its 787's all the requirements for ETOPS will have already been met by Boeing during flight test and the aircraft will be delivered and certified as ETOPS.

Again wrong, QF will not be able to operate the 787 ETOPS until their operation as well as the A?C has been certified as ETOPS

BUT they will be able to ferry the aircraft to SYD, without pax, under a "ferry permit" issued by our CASA, subject to what ever conditions CASA see fit.

Gemuser
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RichardPrice
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Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:59 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 21):
BUT they will be able to ferry the aircraft to SYD, without pax, under a "ferry permit" issued by our CASA, subject to what ever conditions CASA see fit.

Thats the answer I was wanting, thanks  Smile
 
EMBQA
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RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:16 pm

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 16):
QF will not be able to operate the 787 ETOPS until their operation as well as the A?C has been certified as ETOPS

When the Boeing 777 was delivered to United Airlines it was already ETOPS certified. What makes you think the 787 will be any different..? That was part of the agreed upon selling point to the airlines.

Quoting Spencer (Reply 17):
After the signing and handing over of flight deck keys, the customer will then take the aircraft for its C1.

All that is taken care of before the sign over. All squawks are cleared before the ownership is tranfered.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
RichardPrice
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Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 23):

When the Boeing 777 was delivered to United Airlines it was already ETOPS certified. What makes you think the 787 will be any different..? That was part of the agreed upon selling point to the airlines.

UA got ETOPS operational certification almost automatically because they had operated ETOPS aircraft with a high degree of maintenance before without any major problems. The 777 was type rated by Boeing, but each individual operator needs operational certification before they can fly ETOPS routes. As in my previous post on this subject, operational certification can either be based on the operators history with other ETOPS aircraft in its fleet that have a similiar maintenance requirement, or it can be based on proving flights by that operator - an operator doesnt get ETOPS approval on a type just because the type is approved.

As said before, this is why some airlines can fly ETOPS routes on 737s, 757s, A320s etc while others cant.
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
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RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:50 pm

How does an airline get its crew to Boeing, XFW or TLS? WN can easily get pilots to Boeing, but what about B6 when it picks up its 320s?

-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
RobertS975
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RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:56 pm

ETOPS would have little bearing on delivery flights anyway!
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 24):
UA got ETOPS operational certification almost automatically because they had operated ETOPS aircraft with a high degree of maintenance before without any major problems.

United got the ETOPS on the 777 because they had proven they could fly the 777 under ETOPS conditions. As I said many posts before, that was part of the sales agreement with Boeing.. Delivered and ready to fly ETOPS...they laid all the cost on Boeing and killed two birds with one stone. That is also why they used a UAL aircraft and crews in flight test. As I also said, watch the PBS special on the 777. One whole hour is dedicated to this deal. My point being, Qantas is not a stupid airline, I'm sure they will do the same thing with Boeing.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:01 pm

I think you misunderstand, I was using Qantas and the 787 as an example, dont take it too literally. My point was, how does an airline that can pretty much only fly ETOPS routes gain certification on new types.
 
ZKNEA
Posts: 148
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:07 am

RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:58 pm

Quoting SafetyDude (Reply 25):
How does an airline get its crew to Boeing, XFW or TLS? WN can easily get pilots to Boeing, but what about B6 when it picks up its 320s?

Partner airlines, other random airlines - probably using the same airlines they have staff travel deals with - just like how the frequently mentioned QF would get their 787, or EK, or NZ, or TG, or ......... pretty much most international carriers as not all that many fly into Seattle (obviously just using Boeing as an example).
 
chase
Posts: 658
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:02 pm

RE: A Few Questions Regarding Delivery Flights?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:59 pm

TZ would name "MVP"-type employees in each division of the company, and these sometimes got to go along to pick up a new plane. Wish I coulda done that...