luisde8cd
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Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:21 am

Local media in Colombia is reporting that AV is looking to renew its fleet in a six-year period. They asked both Boeing and Airbus to submit their offers by March 27th.

AV wants 58 planes, including 42 widebodies.

Source (Spanish)
http://www.eluniversal.com/2006/02/04/eco_ava_04A666611.shtml

Anyone from Colombia has more info?

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
PRAirbus
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:25 am

42 widebodies? It seems quite a too large number of WIDE-BODIES for an airline the size of AV. Perhaps it is 42 new planes total. I doubt AV can support 42 wide-bodies. Not even the largest carriers in Latin America have 42 wide-bodies on their fleet(s).
 
A388
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:29 am

Wow, that's a pretty large order. My bet will be that Boeing wins this order with a mix of the 737NG and 787 but anything can happen. For all we know Airbus might have had a business trip to Avianca as well when they were performing A380 test flights in Colombia some time ago. If Airbus was there you might as well send in a few sales representatives to discuss possible deals to Colombian airlines, right?

But as I've said before, I still see Boeing winning this order if true.

Roger
 
PRAirbus
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:35 am

Reading the "El Universal" article from Venezuela (in Spanish), it reads "cabina ancha" / "widebody's". Most likely the press misinterpreted the term...they are not aviation experts.
 
Summa767
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:39 am

El Universal was quoting business newspaper la Republica.
I really think that the latter got the numbers mixed up in the first place, and it should be 16 widebodies and 42 single aisle aircraft. These numbers may include options too.
AV will have to replace 14 757/767 (I assume in this total that they will get another 767 later in this year), and something like 18 MD83s.
The airline will have to take into account growth, that in latin America is expected to be significant. It is not unlikely that the the orders will include aircraft for other airlines under the Synergy umbrella.
 
Summa767
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 2):
If Airbus was there you might as well send in a few sales representatives to discuss possible deals to Colombian airlines, right?

Indeed! The commercial director was certainly there buttering up both AV and the press.
 
PDPsol
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 1):
42 widebodies? It seems quite a too large number of WIDE-BODIES for an airline the size of AV

Well, the article makes reference to aircraft with "cabina ancha" which, translated directly, means "wide cabin". However, I suspect these "widebodies" are simply larger, single-aisle aircraft, such as the 737-900ER or, perhaps, the A321. I suspect AV will also be ordering for OceanAir and, perhaps, Wayra Perú as well.

A/B could fight over the replacements for AV's MD83's and 757's by their offering 73G/738/739ER or A319/320/321 families. The 787-8 appears to be a great replacement for AV's 767's.
 
juventus
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:42 am

A few months back, there was a rumor on this forum about AV ordering around 10 or 15 B787s, I forgat the exact amount. I think 42 'wide-bodies' would be too large a number for AV. It could be 42 airframes total.

On the same token, good news for Colombian aviation, and congratulations...
 
USADreamliner
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:47 am

Great, I hope they order a mix of 737NG and 777, 787.


USADreamliner Big grin
 
A388
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 5):
Indeed! The commercial director was certainly there buttering up both AV and the press

Hey Summa767 how are you doing? You are exactly right. If I were Airbus I would send a sales team with the A380 back than to discuss potential aircraft deals in Colombia. The A380 was going to Colombia anyways so why not make use of the opportunity? Big grin

Roger
 
PDPsol
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 8):
Great, I hope they order a mix of 737NG and 777, 787

Hmm... I agree with 73G/738/739's and 787's replacing the MD-83's/757's/767's, but the 777 appears unnecessary. AV could put the 787-8 to good use on its flights to MAD.
 
ghost77
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:04 am

I think order is for 42 aisle aircraft and 16 widebodies. Avianca please go Boeing!!!

ghost77 APM
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RICARIZA
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 11):
think order is for 42 aisle aircraft and 16 widebodies.

Those are my thoughts too.

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 11):
Avianca please go Boeing!!!

It is most likely... (based on AV's loyalty to B for years)
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
aa1818
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:12 am

I think Boeing's got the edge on this one because of the versatility of the Dreamliner. It's great for the thin-ish long haul to destnations in Europe and it's available to explore new markets further afield. The shorthaul competition however (unless a winner take all situation) will be interesting. Airbus has managed to keep boeing at bay regarding 737 sales and they could sway AV towards the short-haul buses! I really don't see anything else but 787's in AV long-haul future though!

AA1818
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ghost77
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting RICARIZA (Reply 12):
It is most likely... (based on AV's loyalty to B for years)

You never know!! Check MX!! From Boeing to Fokker and Airbus...

ghost77 APM
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wedgetail737
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:33 am

I could see AV having a need for widebody airplanes. They have 767's now. They had 1 or 2 747-200's back in the early 90's. Why not???

MX never was a truly a Boeing airline. They had 727-200's well before Airbus produced A320's and they had DC-10's as widebodies, with exception of their 767-300's.

AV has been a Boeing customer for the most part, with the exception of the MD-80's and the F-50's. Does AV fly F-100's??? Anyway, they were owners of 707's, 727's, 757's, 767's and 747's.

I think they could buy primarily 787's, with a handful of 777-200ER's.

That's my 2 cents. Only the future will know.
 
aa1818
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:18 am

Do you think 772ER's are absolutely necessary given the -9 variant of the 787 and the prospect of future improvements to MTOW through improvements and also future variants eg -10 (for EK).

I would love to see another carrier from this part of the world select the 777, but i don't know if it's absolutely necessary.

What does AV run to LHR, MAD, BCN CDG (any other cities they serve) and what frequencies??

Also the 787-3 would be perfect for the MIA and JFK traffic and it would probably be pretty economical to run a small sub fleet of -3's given a potentially sizeable fleet of 787-8/ -9's wit AV.

AA1818
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BG777300ER
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:23 am

Order a freakin 748i, it needs passenger orders!!  Smile
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md90fan
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 16):
LHR, MAD, BCN CDG

As of now they only fly to MAD (BCN?) with 762/3 family aircraft
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
aa1818
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:42 am

I'm surprised they don't fly to LHR and more cities in Spain. In that case I think they should go with the 787 for sure. 787-8's at first that could be swapped over to open up new European cities and 787-9's or (if built -10's) to handle growth. The 777 might be too much capacity if flights currently use 767 variants. I see this as a strong potential 787 customer. Good luck AV!!!
“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
 
RICARIZA
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 15):
Does AV fly F-100's???

it will start anytime. The Synergy group (owner of Avianca) purchased 29 f-100s ex AA for their airlines. 10 or those will go to Avianca and they are expected any day now.

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 15):
I think they could buy primarily 787's, with a handful of 777-200ER's.

Don't forget some 737s to replace the MD80's.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 16):
What does AV run to LHR, MAD, BCN CDG (any other cities they serve)

Unfortunately AV does not serve LHR and CDG for a few years now.

Along with MAD and BCN, it also serves ALC in Spain and the following routes: MEX, SCL, EZE, CCS, LIM, UIO, GRU, GIG, PTY, AUA, CUR, PUJ, GYE, MIA, FLL, NYC and JFK. It will start LAX this year again and there are rumors of other cities in Europe but they are just that, "rumors".

Domestically it has almost 55% of the traffic.(18 routes within Colombia)

[Edited 2006-02-05 01:48:59]
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wedgetail737
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:55 am

AA1818...you have a good point. They could buy just a family of 787's to meet all of their widebody needs. How could I forget the 787-10. I chose the 777-200ER because the 787-10 hasn't been offered yet. It's just matter of time.

Yes...I forgot about the 737NG family. I could see AV buying 737-800's (for their MD-80's) and -900ER's for their 757's.
 
aa1818
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:15 am

Cheers Wedgetail.....it may be premature of my to assume that the -10 variant will be offered.

I'd like to see who AV choses for their shorthaul operator. A Boeing order would be nice, but then again the A32X is a strong(er) competitor and we could see AV operating a mixed fleet!

AA1818
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777ER
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:27 pm

Would the B787-10 interest AV? B787 slots are getting full, so maybe a launch customer for the B787-10
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777jaah
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:38 pm

A few weeks ago I flew JFK-BOG with AV and had the chance to cross a few words with the captain, as we had a glass of water in the galley. I asked him directly about fleet changes and he said that they were expecting to be changing their 767s and MDs. He really hoped for some 744, but he said it was very difficult to see, mainly bc of the 787 family. I asked him if there was any chance of them becoming Airbus customers, and the answer was "No way". Why?? I guess loyalty to Boeing long haul products. That's he thought, and for the record, he is just a pilot, no management power at all. Do Management in AV take pilots feedback in these cases?? I sure don't know.

Anyway, 737s for the MDs and 787s for medium and long hauls. Those 787s will be fitting right in the money for AV's future european routes, which I'm sure they're eager to fly again (Mainly CDG which is only serviced by AF daily, and LHR).


Links to La Republica in english:

http://www.larepublica.com.co/notici...&template=noticia&fecha=2006-02-05


For even more discussion, don't count down Airbus so early in the game. AV had some indirect experience with the A320 that inherit from Aces after the Alianza Summa deal, and if I'm not wrong, their maintenance team is certified to deal with those ac. So airbus might have a shot in this deal. Time will tell.

http://www.larepublica.com.co/notici...&template=noticia&fecha=2006-02-05


Good luck.
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
AcessColombia
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boein

Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:46 pm

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 15):
I could see AV having a need for widebody airplanes. They have 767's now. They had 1 or 2 747-200's back in the early 90's. Why not???

Yes they actually had 4 Jumbo Jets, the first in south america to do so

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 22):
I'd like to see who AV choses for their shorthaul operator. A Boeing order would be nice, but then again the A32X is a strong(er) competitor and we could see AV operating a mixed fleet!

I doubt it, that was one of the major reason Alianza Summa was ended, as with a mixed fleet different types of staff were neeeded.


Avianca has always been a loyal Boeing customer, but then again this is not the same Avianca of five years ago and it could go either way. And yes Airbus did hold talks with Avianca while the A380 was in Medellin (info from insider, my cousin and how serious I have no idea)

I'd like them to go Airbus, but if it has to be Boeing they should do it with an all 727 fleet, they're awesome.
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luisde8cd
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:14 pm

Quoting Acesscolombia (Reply 25):
Yes they actually had 4 Jumbo Jets, the first in south america to do so

Might sound rude... but that's not correct. The first 747 operator in Latin America was Viasa. They began 747 service in April 1972 (3 years before AV) with a plane which was recently delivered to KLM (PH-BUG). The plane was flown by Venezuelan pilots and crew. It had KLM titles on one side and Viasa in the other.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
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AA777223
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:17 pm

I would love to see them choose a mix of 787 and 737NG. I doubt they would have a need for anything larger than a 787-9, like the 777. I certainly don't see them needing and 744/8s. I bet we will see a Boeing widebody order, and airbus and Boeing will duke it out for the single aisles, hopefully to the avail of Boeing, for the sake of fleet commonality.
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CRFLY
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:45 pm

Question for my Colombian friends: How are the finances doing at AV now with the Ocean Group?
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legacy135
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:32 pm

Going by history it looks indeed obvious for AV to go for an all Boeing fleet. Just take also into consideration, we face here a major deal. Finally the one offering the most interesting package will make it. Here is absolutely some room for surprises.

As far as I understand, are the Boeing products better performer on the short intra-Colombian shuttle system, than the A320. Looking at the routes to Florida, I think AV is better up with a small widebody than with an A321 (offering basically as the same number of seats), as the Airbus simply doesn't lift the same amount of freight on those routes.

Anyhow, I absolutely could imagine an aircraft, up to the size of a 777 on routes as MIA or JFK, but also on high density intra-Southamerican routes as CCS. We always need to consider, the fleet will not be bought for today and tomorrow, it will be for the next 20 years. The potential for growth in the South American markets are enormous. Under those aspects, even the article mentioned in the beginning of the thread could become some shape, even if it looks impossible for the moment.

Cheers
Legacy135 Wink
 
AR385
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:26 pm

The biggest airline in Latam in terms of widewodies is LAN, with 13 763's, and 4 A-340's I think.

The following is just a hypothesis, but might be welll considering. In 1994, with Mexico's economy going down the tubes, airline passenger levels took 10 years to recuperate, and the tequila effect took a hard toll in the region. All countries in Latam suffered.

Well, sooner or later the same thing is going to happen to one of these left-leaning governments in the region. I bet the first will be Chavez, which has resorted to 70's economic policies. Of course the price of oil is backing him, but what will happen when that price goes down? My second candidate is Argentina, with a major recession with inflation due to irresponsible economic management. No matter how rosy things look there now.

Evo Morales in Bolivia? Common. Lopez Obrador in Mexico? I have nightmares imagining that scenario. Kirchner in Argentina? Same. And he is now trying to implement price controls in supermarkets. With a 12% inflation for 2005? Laughable. Plain 70's economics. Lula in Brasil (although he's been pretty moderate) may sooner or later lean to the left.

MY point being is that sooner or later, a major economic downturn is bound to hit Latam, soon, rather than later in my opinion, how it affects the whole region may depend on which country is the origin of that downturn and how Washington reacts.

Before you suggest this post goes to the non-aviation forum, here's my point. A long term order of fixed capital assets like 42 widebody or narrowbody planes in the future for any Latam country right now is a dream. It will not become true. They might order them, but they won't arrive. Although in this particular case Colombia has an orthodox economic policy, and a right leaning governmenta any major downturn in the region will hit it hard. God help Colombia if it is in Venezuela.

AeroMexico is being very careful. They are ordering two 777's, maybe a third in the fall. But no crazy orders like 20 or 30 jets. Mexicana too. They are just now thinking about possible jets to go to Asia.

Anybody who wants to have an Economics discussion about this post, feel free to contact me and we'll dish it out in the Non-aviation forum.

P.D. If Lopez Obrador wins in Mexico, I'm moving to Canada or Australia. For good.
 
aa1818
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:36 pm

What sort of role will politics play ina deal such as this. With Venezuela, Brazil and Argentina speaking out against the US, where does COlombia stand in relation to the US's desire for "free trade" in this hemisphere. I can't see an airline like Aeropostal seeking Boeing aircraft under Chavez, could politics play a pivotal role in Colombia?

AA1818
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boeingfever777
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:14 pm

Could they be looking at the ew 737-700ER? Eitherway I believe Boeing will get this sale due to what other have said AV is a Boeing customer has been for a long time and continues to be.
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scbriml
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 27):
for the sake of fleet commonality.

What commonality would there be between the 737 and 787? scratchchin 
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AcessColombia
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 26):

Might sound rude... but that's not correct. The first 747 operator in Latin America was Viasa. They began 747 service in April 1972 (3 years before AV) with a plane which was recently delivered to KLM (PH-BUG). The plane was flown by Venezuelan pilots and crew. It had KLM titles on one side and Viasa in the other.

Saludos desde Caracas,

Not at all, thanks for the correction.
Por el Respeto
 
RICARIZA
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 22):
but then again the A32X is a strong(er) competitor and we could see AV operating a mixed fleet!

AVs (Aces) experience with the A320 was not the best one due to the turnaround times (longer than the MDs, because of cooling of brakes of the A320), so "A" has that against them.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 24):
of them becoming Airbus customers, and the answer was "No way". Why?? I guess loyalty to Boeing long haul products

that and what I just wrote above..

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 24):
AV had some indirect experience with the A320 that inherit from Aces after the Alianza Summa deal, and if I'm not wrong, their maintenance team is certified to deal with those ac. So airbus might have a shot in this deal. Time will tell.

Don't know about the certification of their maintenance team, but yes, they have experience with the A320s

Quoting Acesscolombia (Reply 25):
Yes they actually had 4 Jumbo Jets, the first in south america to do so

There is a debate that the first one was VIASA...

Quoting Acesscolombia (Reply 25):
but if it has to be Boeing they should do it with an all 727 fleet, they're awesome

Was that a Typo? 727?

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 26):
Might sound rude... but that's not correct. The first 747 operator in Latin America was Viasa.

Not rude at all Luis, you just confirmed the debate I was talking above..  Wink

Quoting CRFLY (Reply 28):
Question for my Colombian friends: How are the finances doing at AV now with the Ocean Group?

Very well, after AV got out from Chapter 11, that year profits were in the low 50's (US$ million).. They have captured more domestic travelers, purchased the leased fleet of F-50's and their loads have been very stable and in good stats.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 31):
where does COlombia stand in relation to the US's desire for "free trade" in this hemisphere

US and Colombia have a very tight relationship, Colombia is consider the stronger ally in the region, but that has nothing to do with the AV purchase (my 2 cents) because AV is 100% private and the government does not intervene on issues like fleet renovation on these types of companies.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 31):
could politics play a pivotal role in Colombia?

Very, very unlikely. Efromovich (Brazilian, Bolivian and now Colombian too) will not compromise the profitable management of his companies just to please the Colombian government to favor the US (boeing) and BTW, I can't see the Colombian government making such request, I can't recall a single event like that in the past in Colombian civil aviation, but well you never know what goes behind curtains...
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
AcessColombia
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:33 am

Quoting RICARIZA (Reply 35):
Quoting Acesscolombia (Reply 25):
but if it has to be Boeing they should do it with an all 727 fleet, they're awesome

Was that a Typo? 727?

Nope, not a typo, I just love 727's and yes its a really stupid thing to wish for but I loved the 727 filled skies of the 80's.

Quoting RICARIZA (Reply 35):

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 24):
AV had some indirect experience with the A320 that inherit from Aces after the Alianza Summa deal, and if I'm not wrong, their maintenance team is certified to deal with those ac. So airbus might have a shot in this deal. Time will tell.

Don't know about the certification of their maintenance team, but yes, they have experience with the A320s

As I told you before that was one of the biggest problems, two types of maintenance teams. When the Aibus fleet went back to France, its maintenance team (which was completly ACES employees) was layed off, my Dad was one of them. So you could say that Avianca's expertise with Airbus is really low.
Por el Respeto
 
jsqvl1
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:55 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 15):
AV has been a Boeing customer for the most part, with the exception of the MD-80's and the F-50's. Does AV fly F-100's??? Anyway, they were owners of 707's, 727's, 757's, 767's and 747's.

....You forgot to mention the 737!!


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Avianca
Posts: 5283
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 15):
AV has been a Boeing customer for the most part, with the exception of the MD-80's and the F-50's. Does AV fly F-100's??? Anyway, they were owners of 707's, 727's, 757's, 767's and 747's.

+ do not forget some 737-100 they had for short time (I think they were one of the first airlines that ordered the 737) but after short time they sold it to Lufthansa....

Well I can imagine they will go for Airbus and I hope they will go for airbus...

look the 737 was never ever popular in colombia, even AV sold it afer some months again....

And I think Airbus will offer a better family conept than Airbus mixing A319/A320/A321 and the A350...

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
777jaah
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 38):
So you could say that Avianca's expertise with Airbus is really low.

Agree it was a problem, having two maintenance teams. Well, somehow what you say really closes the door for Airbus. The only way I can see AV ordering anything from Tolouse, is if those guys really pull their pants down and make an extraodinary price offer, but we all know Boeing guys would really like to keep AV as a customer.


Thanks.


Suerte
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
Arcano
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Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:40 am

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 1):
Not even the largest carriers in Latin America have 42 wide-bodies on their fleet(s).

Well, after flying MD90s and F50s, even a 732 feels as a widebody  Wink

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 11):
Avianca please go Boeing!!!

I also vote for that

Quoting RICARIZA (Reply 12):
based on AV's loyalty to B for years

So was LAN till the 320/340...

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 19):
I'm surprised they don't fly to LHR and more cities in Spain.

They do fly to other cities in Spain by codesharing

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
The biggest airline in Latam in terms of widewodies is LAN, with 13 763's, and 4 A-340's I think.

What about RG? The 777s, 767s and MD11s don't count more than LA's wide fleet?

Regards )( Arcano
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
Avianca
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 39):
Quoting Avianca (Reply 38):
So you could say that Avianca's expertise with Airbus is really low.

Agree it was a problem, having two maintenance teams. Well, somehow what you say really closes the door for Airbus. The only way I can see AV ordering anything from Tolouse, is if those guys really pull their pants down and make an extraodinary price offer, but we all know Boeing guys would really like to keep AV as a customer.

you qutet my with something that I never have said in my reply?
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Summa767
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:20 am

The arguments against Airbus have been that their technical support for Aces was not as good as Boeing's has been for Avianca and that -as it has also been discussed here before- the A320's post breaking cooling period made it an inefficient plane on the short domestic routes. What we will have to see is whether Airbus would offer an upgraded product. Materials improve all the time.
It may also be that the A319 proves better for AV's network, with ia range similar to the 73G (AC uses A319s it from YYZ to BOG). EasyJet uses that type in Europe with typical turn around times of 25 minutes.
As for the widebodies, well let the technics do their work and the accountants crunch the numbers.
 
B742
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boein

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 40):
What about RG? The 777s, 767s and MD11s don't count more than LA's wide fleet?

Yea.....
8x 777-200's
12x MD-11's
5x 767-300's

*Above is currently how many widebodies Varig has registered to them, some may not be flying due to financial problems


LAN has 21 aircraft in register, 4x 343's and 17x 763's  Smile

Rob!

[Edited 2006-02-05 19:28:16]
 
RICARIZA
Posts: 2029
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:56 am

RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:40 am

Quoting Acesscolombia (Reply 36):
Was that a Typo? 727?

Nope, not a typo, I just love 727's and yes its a really stupid thing to wish for but I loved the 727 filled skies of the 80's

Don't be so hard on yourself, I love the lines of the 727 too, I just thought that you were referring to the 787..

Quoting Jsqvl1 (Reply 37):
....You forgot to mention the 737!!

didn't know that.. thanks for posting the pics.. pretty cool..

Quoting Arcano (Reply 40):
So was LAN till the 320/340...

True, and there is also the Mexicana case...
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
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tavong
Posts: 688
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:34 am

Quoting Jsqvl1 (Reply 37):
..You forgot to mention the 737!!

Well AV was one of the "launch" costumer of the 737-100 but due to the state of the Colombian runway's the engines took all the dirt on them and that cuased several mantainance problems (and the high altitudo of BOG of coures ) so AV switched to 727s

Gus
SKBO
Just put me on any modern airliner and i will be happy, give me more star alliance miles and i will be a lot more happy.
 
bogota
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RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:47 am

Gus, that is interesting because I thought that usually when runways are not in very good condition you need wing engined planes precisely to avoid the rubble being thrown from the tires to the tail mounted engines. I remember not that long ago that CLO was resurfacing the whole runway that I was told AV was operating exclusively the 757 out there during those days due to this fact. Any thoughts or am I totally wrong?
 
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tavong
Posts: 688
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2001 1:59 am

RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:00 am

Quoting Bogota (Reply 46):
Gus, that is interesting because I thought that usually when runways are not in very good condition you need wing engined planes precisely to avoid the rubble being thrown from the tires to the tail mounted engines. I remember not that long ago that CLO was resurfacing the whole runway that I was told AV was operating exclusively the 757 out there during those days due to this fact. Any thoughts or am I totally wrong?

Well i'm not an aeronautical expert but AFAIK ifthat was correct the 737-100 would be kept instead of switching to 727s, the 737-100 was at it's time suffering several engine problems due tho thye fact thet the dust from the runway was alwys being sucked into the engine jamming it and that's the reason AV got their 727-100 at first time (i love 727s).

Gus
SKBO
Just put me on any modern airliner and i will be happy, give me more star alliance miles and i will be a lot more happy.
 
ghost77
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Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:11 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 15):
MX never was a truly a Boeing airline. They had 727-200's well before Airbus produced A320's and they had DC-10's as widebodies, with exception of their 767-300's

MX was a truly Boeing operated. They had 44 B721/722s; largest B727 fleet outside the US.

Later they introduce 10 F100s and 08 A320s and some B727s started to leave. After that from almost an all Boeing fleet despite the B757/B767 introduction later in 98 and 03 respectively and with 10 frames to be replaced suddenly things changed and now MX fly 54 Buses and at least 12 more are expected to arrive, a fleet which could have been B737s.... now they're looking for A330/340s which could have been B777s.

Boeing lost TA... and at the same time they lost Volaris new order for up to 60 A320s which could have been B737s both, TA and Volaris fleet.

There are some ex. MX people now at Interjet.... they went Airbus... another lost for the B737.

Boeing has LOST A LOT in Mexico....

Never say never.... AV could go Airbus.

ghost77 APM
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
incitatus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Avianca "to Order" 42 Widebodies (Airbus/Boeing?)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:19 am

This could be a threat to Copa. Bogota is a much bigger source of traffic than Panama City. Copa showed that it is possible to establish a hub in the area and feed from North-South America traffic. But if well managed, Avianca could end up with a bigger network.
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