nwafflyer
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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:46 am

OK, so NWA has 'stiffed' Arizona hotels (and lots more than that due to bankruptcy laws).

My opinion here, I don't think they are going to go under, I have flights booked on NWA through early March --

I don't think Bush will rescue them, but I do think an agreement will be reached -

I'd like other thoughts on this, not NWA poison pills, just honest thoughts
 
AirlineAV8tr
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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:05 am

You are right in the assumption that Bush will not save NWA. For some reason, the only airline they see fit to keep on life support is UAL. My uncle flies as an FO on the A330, and his outlook for NWA is dim. In his words, "they're past the point of recovery, and it all began when they started picking the employees pockets instead of their own." Had as much money been poured into NWA instead of UAL it would be a different story. It's a case of history repeating. When an airline turns on its employees, they might as well close its doors. It's reflective in performance reports already. NWA has the lowest on-time rating, and the lowest customer satisfaction rating. Both directly due to employee morale. While they are a historic US Major, they made the mistake of butting heads with employees. Similar to EAL, NAL, PanAm, etc.
If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
 
nwafflyer
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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:12 am

Depressing statement there, and I know the employees are down and out - I fly with them, and check in with them, and am boarded by them, several times a week -- I do with Andersen were back, Steenland doesn't even write a column in the NWA magazine any longer
 
Indy
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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:14 am

I wonder why the judge won't appoint an independent arbitrator to handle the dispute between the pilots and NW? Or does the judge in this case qualify as an arbitrator? Perhaps an independent auditor to review the proposals by both the company and the pilots. This will give a chance for each side to see how honest the other side's proposal is. This could also help the judge in making a decision on tossing out the contract. Perhaps the judge is less likely to toss out the contract if he discovers the company is fudging on their claims. If I were the pilots union and NW wanted deep cuts then in exchange I would want a significant interest in the NW company as well as the right to place a member of the board of directors. Knowing I had an interest in the company and a voice at the top I would be more likely to accept the cut. ATA pilots were about to go on strike but a stock deal seemed to save the company as well. But I also think ATA management at least bargained in good faith.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
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mariner
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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 1):
Had as much money been poured into NWA instead of UAL it would be a different story.

What money has the governement - or anyone - "poured" into United?

The ATSB turned United down twice. The only money United got privately was from banks - DIP financing.

DIP financing was a course NWA could have taken but they chose not to do so.

United's exit financing is all mortgaged to the hilt, which is what NWA will be looking for.

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2006-02-05 01:22:40]
aeternum nauta
 
FA4UA
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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:31 am

MARINER-- couldn't have said it better myself!

Bush never gave UA any money! Through the process of Ch. 11 and exhausting every available channel of refuge, we reduced our liabilities to pennies on the dollars, but there was no check from the gov't at anytime!

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
jetdeltamsy
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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:39 am

I think NWA's labor groups will come to an agreement with the company without a strike.

I do not, however, think that a strike would cause NWA to liquidate. The company is claiming poverty, but I think they will be able to weather a strike. Since they are in bankruptcy, they can stop paying almost every bill they have so the cash drain would be significantly less than if they were not in bankruptcy.

It will be interesting to see if the government comes up with some sort of plan to allow NWA and Delta to keep the pension plans in tact. An agreement to maintain the pensions would almost certainly preclude any labor action by NWA pilots.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
StevenUhl777
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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:11 am

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 1):
For some reason, the only airline they see fit to keep on life support is UAL.

Nooo...the government hasn't given UA a nickel in all of this.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 1):
When an airline turns on its employees, they might as well close its doors.

 checkmark 

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
The ATSB turned United down twice.

Wasn't it three times? Original was $2B, then $1.6B, then $1.1B? I know they were given three shots. The first shootdown was due to a bad plan, and the last was due to the fact the government felt like UA "didn't need it" anymore.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 6):
I do not, however, think that a strike would cause NWA to liquidate. The company is claiming poverty, but I think they will be able to weather a strike.

I do...NW can find replacement F/As and ground employees. They already have with the mechanics...but pilots? Nahhh...if they strike more than 2 days, it's over.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
isitsafenow
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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:16 am

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 2):
Steenland doesn't even write a column in the NWA magazine any longer

I noticed that too, winging back from FLL last week.
safe

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
United's exit financing is all mortgaged to the hilt

Three(3) billion dollars worth.
It looks like this: $3,000,000,000.00
WOW!!
safe

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 6):
I think NWA's labor groups will come to an agreement with the company without a strike.

They better or I'm out a quarter of million miles and it looks like this:
250,000..........
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
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mariner
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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 7):
Wasn't it three times? Original was $2B, then $1.6B, then $1.1B?

Yes, okay, two and a half times.

I can't recall if the second one was ever offically turned down or if the ATSB said they were going to turn it down, and United stayed with that application but reduced the amount they wanted.

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 7):
due to the fact the government felt like UA "didn't need it" anymore.

And because Mr. Tilton was telling the world they didn't actually need the money.

I'd love to be able to ask him what that was all about.  Smile

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
AirRyan
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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 2):
Steenland doesn't even write a column in the NWA magazine any longer

He very rarely even ventures down into the cafeteria out of fear that he will be asked a question from an employee! The last time he spoke to the employees one of them asked a question about the Cancun trip (pre-local media scandal report) and that employee was later called in to Doug's office and chastized for asking that question! I'm smelling HMS Bounty here!
 
flydreamliner
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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:30 am

I think the largest thing plaguing NW is leadership. I think independent of that, there is no reason the airline is too far gone. It's been a really good airline for a long time, the fact it's been poorly managed in the past few years, I hope, isn't enough to run it into the ground. It's really rare an airline as large and diverse as NW just goes under.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
StevenUhl777
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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
And because Mr. Tilton was telling the world they didn't actually need the money.

When you think back, we had Jimmy Goodwin telling us UA would perish without money, then we had Glenn telling us they didn't need it. Progress? Maybe...

Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
I'd love to be able to ask him what that was all about.

Glenn probably decided he didn't want the Bush administration having a seat on the board and large equity stake in the company. After what we saw with Katrina, I don't want the government managing anything significant!
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
christao17
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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 6):
The company is claiming poverty, but I think they will be able to weather a strike. Since they are in bankruptcy, they can stop paying almost every bill they have so the cash drain would be significantly less than if they were not in bankruptcy.

One thing to remember is that to run an airline day-to-day there are tons of ongoing costs (fuel, every contractor you do business with, etc) and those companies are not going to continue providing products and services to NW unless they see the money first.

Bankruptcy allows you to reorganize already existing debts, but not new ones.

My father worked for UA as a purchasing agent and I remember that early on in the bankruptcy, he told me that vendors were doing business with UA only Cash On Delivery. During a strike, if NW is going to continue to operate they will continue to burn through cash.
Keeping the "civil" in civil aviation...
 
apodino
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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:58 pm

I was thinking that this is what happens when you let Lawyers (Steenland is a lawyer by trade) run airlines. Then I remember, there was a certain lawyer about 35 years ago who started an airline and ran it from scratch, and it has become one of the best run airlines in the country. The Lawyers name, Herb Kelleher.

That being said, Steenland is no Herb Kelleher. And I think him and Frank Lorenzo were separated at birth. Its obvious that NW continues to do bad things PR wise, and if they could have sweatshops run the airline they would. But one thing I have learned is, you keep your people happy, and good things will come. My company is the oldest Regional Carrier in existence, and many people who started with the airline are still with the airline, and many people I work with have been here a long time. Obviously they have been kept happy, and you see the results. Steenland could learn from that. But when he said that NW doesn't want arbitration or mediation in the Pilot dispute, I lost all respect for the man. I want them to survive, but I think new leadership is needed. They have a lot of good things about them, they just need the right man. Anyone know if Bethune is still around?
 
scalebuilder
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Northwest and its bankruptcy laws and can Bush aid them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:22 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
And because Mr. Tilton was telling the world they didn't actually need the money.

I'd love to be able to ask him what that was all about.

cheers

mariner

In the end United was able to secure all the exit-financing that the airline needed without the help of the government. That should not be a problem at all for anyone. No taxpayer dollars at waste here.

Ask Mr. Tilton, and he will tell you just that.
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
IceTitan447
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RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:09 pm

Quoting Nwafflyer (Thread starter):
I don't think Bush will rescue them

He better let them drown, he didn't help UAL during their stay.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 1):
For some reason, the only airline they see fit to keep on life support is UAL

Is that an independent theory or have you been listening to your bitter FO uncle who like NWA had hopes of UAL going under to save their flawed product?
 
AMFAproud
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RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:20 pm

I've heard the rumor that the Bush family trust is into Continental and therefore "W" won't intervene in a strike at Delta or NW? Does anyone know for sure?
 
AirlineAV8tr
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RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:24 pm

Quoting IceTitan447 (Reply 16):

Is that an independent theory or have you been listening to your bitter FO uncle who like NWA had hopes of UAL going under to save their flawed product?





Top Of Page |

I'm referring to all incentives, funding, and grants. And yes, This was from my uncles mouth who has 25 years devoted to a now disabled, depreciating major airline. This is not a NWA labor issue, it's incompetent management. He was with Eastern prior to NWA. I thank the stars that not only do I fly for an airline that respects its flight crews, but is managed in a way that has methodically made it one of only two profitable US major carriers. It's just plain good management. I love, and respect my job with this airline, but I will not put up with poor management from this, or any other carrier anymore! Why would I? I trust that my time in the flight deck is appreciated, and valued. I have worked for two airlines prior to my current position, one being 3 years at UAL, and the difference is night and day. You cannot run an airline with an iron fist, and expect profitability. As I said earlier, once an airline decides to play "bully" and pick the pockets of its crews without digging substantially into their own payscale, might as well save the time of a long and painful evaporation, and start liquidating. You have management that is openly recruiting FA's in the local papers!!! And MX crews that were replaced by "contract MX"! Yep!, I'd agree with you on one thing; my FO uncle is bitter! And by the way you say it, you make it seem like he, or the pilot group all together is at fault! If you are willing to give up the amount of income that my uncle has for a CEO that could care less, then Eastern Airlines could've used you! Heck, you'd make a great Frank Lorenzo! I'm really very surprised to see such negative attitudes towards pilots of NWA, from airline enthusiasts. I'm sure that there are many exceptions, but it's just a shame. Put yourself in the possition for instance with UAL. You devote your life to your work, only for your work to strip you of your life (a.k.a. your Pension). I love NWA, and hope it can pull through this for the sake of its employees. But one thing is certain- management has to connect with the crews, and staff. Unfortunately, neither I, nor my uncle sees this as probable.- That's my opinion, which I'm entitled to! : ) I'm not forcing my beliefs down anyones throat here. This is a "forum" to discuss opinions!

[Edited 2006-02-05 13:35:33]

[Edited 2006-02-05 13:36:46]
If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
 
lijnden
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RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:36 pm

How about a rescue from the other side of the Atlantic? With not 1 but 2 US partners (NWA & DAL) in bankruptcy, Airbus and Sky-team members (KLM/Air France) are indirect in problems as well? A loss of NWA will be a huge win for Star (UAL) and Lufthansa. I am sure that through banks and third parties, Lufthansa and SQ also helped to bail out UAL. Don't forget, the $ is still cheap and the airline industry is now a global game in which politics are being sold to the best available party.
Be kind to animals! Next trip: ORF-ORD-NRT-IAH-ORF
 
ltbewr
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RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:46 pm

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 19):
How about a rescue from the other side of the Atlantic?

There are laws that limit to a maximum of 25% of non-USA ownership of any airline based in the USA. While increasing the percentage might be an attractive option, I doubt it will ever happen due to a variety of political, social and security issues. One reason for this is another government policy that can require an USA airline to dedicate aircraft and staff to provide for emergency transport of our military forces and gear to where they are needed to fight.
Perhaps NW could go for doing troop transport using their DC-10's or frieght for the miltiray on their old 747's. It would be a stedy flow of business and could act as 'subsidy' from the government.
 
spartanmjf
Posts: 457
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RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:02 pm

Quoting Nwafflyer (Thread starter):
I don't think Bush will rescue them, but I do think an agreement will be reached

In the end, it is not the job of the President to rescue any particular private business. President Bush has already made clear his opinion on a company as large as General Motors - would he support a bailout of a significantly smaller company providing air transport in an industry plagued by over capacity? NW is not even a 'chosen instrument,' as one other famous airline was, to provide an American presence in all parts of the world.

The job of the President and Congress is to provide an environment in which private enterprise can thrive, an environment in which the free market will sort itself out.

My two cents.....
"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
 
sccutler
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RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 3):
Or does the judge in this case qualify as an arbitrator?

There is no need for the judge to "qualify as an arbitrator"; he's a judge and can, therefore, adjudicate. Arbitrators serve instead of judges, with arbitration being an alternative to litigation. That is not an option here. Now, if he thought it beneficial to the process, the judge could appoint a mediator to try to facilitate an arrangement, but nothing can be done without the ultimate approval of teh bankruptcy judge.

Quoting Indy (Reply 3):
Perhaps the judge is less likely to toss out the contract if he discovers the company is fudging on their claims.

You may be certain that the various labor unions are zealously reviewing all company filings for any inaccuracies and inconsistencies that they can use to their advantage. In bankruptcy, under court supervision, they do not have the luxury (?) of withholding relevant information.

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 12):
Glenn probably decided he didn't want the Bush administration having a seat on the board and large equity stake in the company. After what we saw with Katrina, I don't want the government managing anything significant!

Maybe better, then, to state that you don't want Louisiana state government and New Orleans city government on the board...

Quoting Apodino (Reply 14):
And I think him and Frank Lorenzo were separated at birth. Its obvious that NW continues to do bad things PR wise, and if they could have sweatshops run the airline they would.

The principal difference being, at least Francisco Lorenzo saved an airline before his arrogance caused him to lose sight of the fact that an airline is made up of people, not machines.

Quoting AMFAproud (Reply 17):
I've heard the rumor that the Bush family trust is into Continental and therefore "W" won't intervene in a strike at Delta or NW? Does anyone know for sure?

It is administered in Roswell, New Mexico by aliens.

Get real.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
PRAirbus
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RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:25 am

What a shame! Not long ago they seemed to be doing quite fine, even better than most US majors. I doubt they will go under. NW is by far one of the largest US Majors in Asia/Pacific there are many reasons why they need to stay around. Unfortunately this government does not care about its airlines or labor. They care about Iraq, Iran, fuel and religion...they do not give a damn about middle-class US workers. Bush could care less, he has said it many times...he does not care about the airlines, all he cares about is making his friends richer and conquering the World for fuel.
 
dsa
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RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:36 am

Hi

I really do love NWA they seem like a good airline that has run into a patch of misfortune. NWA needs to take drastic steps or the end destination is inevitable.

The C/S is great!

DSA>>>
Go Skybus!!!!
 
chgoflyer
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:16 pm

RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:15 am

Quoting Dsa (Reply 24):
Unfortunately this government does not care about its airlines or labor



Quoting Dsa (Reply 24):
They care about Iraq, Iran, fuel and religion...they do not give a damn about middle-class US workers. Bush could care less, he has said it many times...he does not care about the airlines, all he cares about is making his friends richer and conquering the World for

It is not the role of the U.S. government under any administration to "CARE" rather their purpose is to ensure business can be conducted. What's happening at NWA is tragic and in my opinion a result of all the people who make up that company.

The people of NW should remove the emotion and remember :
Revenue-Expense=Profit follow this and all will correct itself.
Will someone please wake me up in 4 years
 
IceTitan447
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:27 am

RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 18):
but I will not put up with poor management from this

You have no choice. The NWA issue is spiraling out of control, they(crews) are either going along for the ride, or they will get out now. Your Uncle has a right to be bitter, sure he does. Or he can move on, he controls his life, not NWA. If he hasn't nest egged a little something for this then it is all his own fault. With YEARS of bloated salaries I would hope he was smart enough to tuck a little aside, buy a few rental properties, so on, and so forth. Most pilots are either paying for two divorces, or not thinking about this stuff. I would talk with some crews(mainline) and they didn't plan well, their fault? Sure it is. So if your response is he is OK, then stop complaining about him, take an early out if he can, and continue with his investments. I was a CSR, and I am doing wonderful, whether my airline survived or not, I was going to control my own life, not the airline. Remember the 90's? We ALL made money, and money wasn't an issue.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 18):
play "bully" and pick the pockets of its crews

You sound as if the CREWS are the only group to have given? Pilots are usually the last to give back, DL is a great example. Their CS and other staffers got raped as the fly guys continued to make well beyond what the market was willing to pay. They are suffering small set backs for it, chap. 11 being one of them.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 18):
my FO uncle is bitter! And by the way you say it, you make it seem like he, or the pilot group all together is at fault!

read the above response. They are part of the problem, not a solution. They either accept the fate of what is bound to happen, or get out now. Now from the sound of it, I would venture a guess and say you work for Skywest. Since you put 3 years in with UAL, now personally I could care less, but from your writing you sound like companies owe you folks a debt of gratitude for all you think you do for these companies. If you are at a regional, it will be you guys willing to take the seat from under your uncle, and for a lower price, You guys(pilots) were bound to descend in pay, and it is funny to hear most complain all the way down.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 18):
. Put yourself in the position for instance with UAL.

I did for 11 years, I got smart, can you uncle?
 
pillowtester
Posts: 149
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RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:36 am

My two cents is that UAL has sortof become the unofficial "flag carrier" of the United States after the demise of Pan Am.
...said Dan jubilantly.
 
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fxramper
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RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting FA4UA (Reply 5):
but there was no check from the gov't at anytime!



Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 7):
Nooo...the government hasn't given UA a nickel in all of this.

Your kidding right? How many millions in aid did the government give to UA after 9/11?  Confused
 
skymileman
Posts: 577
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RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:36 am

I think the one thing the pilots should under no circumstances back down on is this crazy plan for "NewCo." It would set a precedent in the industry that would just make things worse.
 
mattnrsa
Posts: 359
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RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting FXramper (Reply 28):
Your kidding right? How many millions in aid did the government give to UA after 9/11?

After 9/11, the govt gave ALL US carriers aid, but, considering how much airlines were losing due to a complete shutdown of US air traffic and the following plunge in passenger numbers, it was a drop in the bucket compared to how much most airlines lost in that period just after 9/11. The amount was relative to the size of the airline, but they all got something proportional. Separately, UA was turned down for the loan, which it would have had to pay back anyway.
 
scalebuilder
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RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting FXramper (Reply 28):
Your kidding right? How many millions in aid did the government give to UA after 9/11?

The government wrote a check to just about every airline after 9/11 to prevent disintegration of the entire airline industry. This discussion is not about the 9/11 emergency aid package, but about UA's survival through Ch 11. Two related, but completely different issues when it comes to the government's objective of why they decide to aid any airline.
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
cloudy
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RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush

Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 20):
Perhaps NW could go for doing troop transport using their DC-10's or frieght for the miltiray on their old 747's. It would be a stedy flow of business and could act as 'subsidy' from the government.

The government does charter airliners for the purpose. However, nobody makes a boatload of money on it, since the rates paid are relatively low - in most cases lower than what the aircraft could earn in airline service. ATA and some others like this business because they don't have as many high yield commercial routes, and their cost is low enough to support it.l

In general, aviation is alone among means of transport in that it pays for itself. The taxes on aviation exceed what the industry get from the government, especially if you count fuel taxes. Airports are largely financed by landing fees, concession revenues, etc. The FAA, the TSA, and other govenment agencies are funded by high taxes on airlines and airline customers.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 28):
Your kidding right? How many millions in aid did the government give to UA after 9/1

The grants following 9/11 were given to compensate aviation related businesses for expenses related to the grounding of all flights. These grants were given to all using an evenhanded formula, to the profitable and unprofitable alike. Needless to say, the extra fees imposed after 9/11 to pay fo r the TSA, etc. have more than made up for the post 9/11 grants. Those airlines that could have withtood the initial shock would have been better off financially if the government did NOTHING to react to September 11th.

Airlines could also get government backed loans to keep them operational. United did NOT get one of these, though America West and USair did. This is what people mean when they mean United got no government help. In general, roads, trains and "public transportation" REALLY recieve heavy government subsidies while aviation is falsely accused of it. In a true free market, there would be far more air travel than there is today.

IN SHORT....United got no support unnavailable to succesfull carriers. The government's military flights are not lucrative most of the time. We can debate whether or not it is a good thing, but it is an undeniable fact that aviation is , on the whole, subsidized less than any other form of transportation.
 
Slovacek747
Posts: 634
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RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:15 am

Hey PRAirbus.. why dont you come down to texas and get a texas sized whoop a$$.. you are an ingnorant idiot so next you say something make sure you know what you are talking about.. I come from a middle class family and I sure haven't been hurt by it..

Slovacek747
 
uadc8contrail
Posts: 1636
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:23 am

RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:26 am

Slovacek747,
you or a family member must work for a "texas sized whoop a$$"based airline Smile
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
Skip17
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:48 am

RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 22):
Quoting AMFAproud (Reply 17):
I've heard the rumor that the Bush family trust is into Continental and therefore "W" won't intervene in a strike at Delta or NW? Does anyone know for sure?

It is administered in Roswell, New Mexico by aliens.

Get real.

Hahahahaha Thank you.  rotfl 

Ultimately, it seems in MY OPINION (so don't flame me for it), President Bush would be smarter to stay out of this. With so many airlines going bankrupt, his administration doesn't want to set a pattern of supporting every one that goes under. That could lead to a waste of govrenment dollars as well as leave the airlines with the feeling that they are entitled to the money, rather than it is assitance.
CHEERS!
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 18):
I'm referring to all incentives, funding, and grants.

Hmm...the same incentives, funding and grants that NWA got you mean? The ones after 9/11? We've already shown that UA was turned down byt he ATSB. Or is there some super double secret conspiracy fund that UA tapped into that no one else could. Don't begrudge the UAL employees because they were able to work their way out of this operating under the same bankruptcy laws as Northwest.
 
aa1818
Posts: 1515
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:03 am

RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:21 am

Question- a couple of months before NW ordered the 787's this forum was filled with posts about US legacies....UA is down and out, AA was supposedly headed to CH11, DL was a lost caue and CO and NW were shaky but still the strongest. Was it that people who posted were just mis-informed, or did NW do something drastically wrong in the last year or so. I know about the mechanics' strike, but has anything in particular caused them this much grief to warrant some comments about them being beyond repair?

AA1818

[Edited 2006-02-05 23:25:22]
“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
 
Georgetown
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:50 pm

RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting Spartanmjf (Reply 21):
In the end, it is not the job of the President to rescue any particular private business.

Absolutly correct and the most "on point" response to the second part of this topic.

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 23):
Bush could care less, he has said it many times

I'd love to see a link to some direct evidence of this. What an unbelieveably ignorant comment that simply proves an uneducated understanding of the structure and function of the Executive branch of the United States government in its economic capacity.

Quoting Chgoflyer (Reply 25):
It is not the role of the U.S. government under any administration to "CARE" rather their purpose is to ensure business can be conducted.

Again, right on.
Let's go Hoyas!
 
User avatar
antoniemey
Posts: 1218
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:37 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 14):
They have a lot of good things about them, they just need the right man. Anyone know if Bethune is still around?

He's around somewhere, but he likely wouldn't take the job.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
spartanmjf
Posts: 457
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:31 am

RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush

Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:37 am

Quoting PillowTester (Reply 27):
My two cents is that UAL has sortof become the unofficial "flag carrier" of the United States after the demise of Pan Am.

Interesting point - yes they did buy the Pacific Division of PA, but Delta basically inherited [for better or worse] most of the rest of the network. Of course, there is always AA, with a name and livery that literally shouts the name and colors of the United States.

BTW, I realize that I didn't mention any reborn LCC that might also have the name US.  Smile
"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
 
IceTitan447
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:27 am

RE: Northwest And Its Bankruptcy Laws And Can Bush Aid Them?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 37):
Was it that people who posted were just mis-informed, or did NW do something drastically wrong in the last year or so

My opinion? They bet the house UAL would fold. I use to work for a fella, his brother was a big wig with NWA, he said UAL wasn't going to make it. They are still gracing the skies of the World with a brand new livery, fresh from the BK house, on their way to healthy, NWA couldn't have been more wrong.

Quoting Spartanmjf (Reply 40):
but Delta basically inherited [for better or worse] most of the rest of the network

Think about it, UAL got the Pacific division, and LHR. DL got what? That would come close to that. I would love to know what others think as well.

Quoting Spartanmjf (Reply 40):
AA, with a name and livery that literally shouts the name and colors of the United States.

AA in my opinion doesn't come close to being an airline of UA's caliber. Just my opinion, and I am a UAL fan. I have flown both, and routes, planes, and hubs are far better than AA. .02