OPNLguy
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Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:10 pm

Today (Feb. 5th) was the first day of SWA flights being able to conduct extended overwater operations. The old limit was no more than 50nm offshore, and the new one is no more than 162nm. This will allow fuel-saving shortcuts on flights to/from Florida...

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d143/OPNLguy/FLLBWIoverwater.jpg

[Edited 2006-02-06 05:37:11]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:12 pm

Perhaps we could see additional services in and out of FL in the near future.
 
777wt
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:21 pm

Isn't this related to ETOPS operations?
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:24 pm

Quoting 777WT (Reply 3):
Isn't this related to ETOPS operations?

No, ETOPS is another thing entirely. The 162nm limit doesn't get one very far if they were going, say, LAX-HNL...  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
2H4
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:29 pm



What other 737 operators are approved for extended overwater ops?

I imagine this will make it a lot easier to deal with wx in and around the Gulf region...




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
charlipr
Posts: 262
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:30 pm

Did they get rafts in there planes to do this route?? I know that any time a plane wants to fly on an "AR" route, for example AR16, operators require rafts on board. FAA recommends to use AR routes more often, as to minimize departure delays when operating to/from the NE and Florida and vice-versa.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting Charlipr (Reply 6):
Did they get rafts in there planes to do this route??

Some ARs require liveVESTS only; those further than 162nm require both lifeVESTS and lifeRAFTS...

No rafts on SWA aircraft, just vests...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
charlipr
Posts: 262
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:37 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 7):
Some ARs require liveVESTS only; those further than 162nm require both lifeVESTS and lifeRAFTS...

No rafts on SWA aircraft, just vests...

Cool!!! I learn something new everyday in this forum!!!
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:42 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 5):
I imagine this will make it a lot easier to deal with wx in and around the Gulf region...

Amen to that. The increased flexibility for weather-re-route will be significant...

Quoting Charlipr (Reply 8):
Cool!!! I learn something new everyday in this forum!!!

It'll be a bit odd for me, as I haven't operated via the ARs since I left Air Florida in 1982.

The 162nm figure originally came from an old exemption that National Airlines requested (and was approved for) eons ago so they could get between Florida and the NE, and vice versa.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
charlipr
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:51 pm

I work for a company that does international flight plans for a well-known fractional aircraft operator, and we use AR routes all the time as long as we have a raft on board for everybody. If you start using the AR routes you will see that your aircraft will be cleared by ATC quicker, during bad weather, and those filed using the land route will be ground stop much longer. Many of the pref routes out of the New York area to the Bahamas, and Florida go on the AR routes.
 
2H4
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:01 pm



And to think.....earlier today, over in one of the Wright threads, someone was claiming "Southwest's options to improve productivity are very limited".


 rotfl 




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:05 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 11):
And to think.....earlier today, over in one of the Wright threads, someone was claiming "Southwest's options to improve productivity are very limited".

They don't know us very well, dooooo they...?

When a solid line of thunderstorms cuts Florida in half, the new flexibility for re-routes will save hours of time...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
MX757
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:10 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 5):


What other 737 operators are approved for extended overwater ops?

All of CO's 737NG fleet are approved for 75 min ETOPS diversion authority.
Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
 
mandargb
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:15 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 5):


What other 737 operators are approved for extended overwater ops?


===============

Aloha makes Hawaii to OAK / SJC / SFO area in their 737s.
 
satx
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:59 pm

Wouldn't the title of this thread be more accurate if it said "Something New UNDER Southwest?"  Wink

I guess all aircraft now have the vests? I think you mentioned that this was a requirement in WN's view, if not a true legal requirement on its own. I'm still waiting for the 'earth shattering' thread about some new intl. destination or a new aircraft type. Well, at least I can always hope.  Smile
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
johnboy
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:51 pm

Funny you should mention this...I was on #1314 from PHX to OAK tonight, and lo and behold, during the safety demo the F/A's whipped out the vests and demonstrated how to use them.

I thought, "Now wait a minute...I've never seen THAT before on Southwest."
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:28 pm

Quoting Johnboy (Reply 15):
Funny you should mention this...I was on #1314 from PHX to OAK tonight, and lo and behold, during the safety demo the F/A's whipped out the vests and demonstrated how to use them.

I thought, "Now wait a minute...I've never seen THAT before on Southwest."

Hence, why I started this thread...  Wink

Quoting SATX (Reply 14):
I think you mentioned that this was a requirement in WN's view, if not a true legal requirement on its own.

As I said earlier, it was to attain fuel savings from more direct routings to/from Florida, and get additional flexibility when re-routing for weather. The previous 50nm limitation was, quite simply, too limiting, and the new 162nm limit will make for a better operation. This has nothing to do with ETOPS, although I'm sure people will be confusing extended overwater operations with ETOPS for quite some time...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
satx
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:09 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 16):
As I said earlier, it was to attain fuel savings from more direct routings to/from Florida, and get additional flexibility when re-routing for weather.

So does that mean not all WN aircraft have them yet? That's all I was really curious about. I thought I remember you stating that all aircraft would get these vests, though I couldn't remember if this was due to a specific requirement stating the whole fleet must be so equipped or was simply a business decision on WN's part.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 16):
This has nothing to do with ETOPS, although I'm sure people will be confusing extended overwater operations with ETOPS for quite some time...

Thanks to your previous posts I'm well aware that this has nothing to do with ETOPS. When I mentioned international destinations I was merely thinking along the lines of Mexico and Canada. I understand that ETOPS is a far more intensive process than simply adding life vests and that it requires additional certification of both the carrier's aircraft and maintenance programs.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:48 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 17):
So does that mean not all WN aircraft have them yet?

No, all have them. They started the installation process about a year ago (once the -200s were retired), and didn't "switch on" the new procedures until all remaining aircraft were equipped, all crews had been trained, and all seatback cards had been changed.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
LongbowPilot
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:58 pm

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 1):
Perhaps we could see additional services in and out of FL in the near future.

Just because they have a new route, does not mean an increase in Gate Capacity.
 
sbworcs
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:22 pm

Sorry to sound so stupid but could someone explain for me what an AR route is?

Thanks

Stephen
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:31 pm

AR = Atlantic Route, a Jet Airway (one of several) off the east coast..
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
SPREE34
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 21):
AR = Atlantic Route, a Jet Airway (one of several) off the east coast..

It should be noted that these offshore routes threaten the very existence of the DFW airport and the North Texas economy....................

Sorry. I couldn't resist.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
txagkuwait
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:49 pm

And every time Southwest uses as AR, American cuts a flight between DFW and ILE, GGG, TYR, ACT, ABI, & SJT.

Ohhhhh the humanity....
 
surfdog75
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:57 pm

Almost every other carrier has been doing these routes for years.
 
nateDAL
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting MX757 (Reply 12):

All of CO's 737NG fleet are approved for 75 min ETOPS diversion authority.

What about the 737s out of GUM?

Some of those routes need more than 75 minute ETOPS, like GUM-MNL, GUM-HKG, GUM-Japan
Set Love Free
 
3201
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:16 am

Not just the AR's, but the Q's across the gulf as well.  thumbsup 
7 hours aint long-haul
 
Continental
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:48 am

Sweet! Never would have known that! What was keeping them from the 162nm limit in the first place?
 
incitatus
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 10):
And to think.....earlier today, over in one of the Wright threads, someone was claiming "Southwest's options to improve productivity are very limited".

Yes I made that claim. And it stands. It's possible that Northwest or United improve productivity by a large amount because their operations are relatively inneficient. That's not possible for Southwest. But if you think that's possible, go ahead and suggest a way for Southwest to improve productivity by 10%.
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txagkuwait
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:34 am

>>Yes I made that claim. And it stands. It's possible that Northwest or United improve productivity by a large amount because their operations are relatively inneficient. That's not possible for Southwest. But if you think that's possible, go ahead and suggest a way for Southwest to improve productivity by 10%.<<

Many, many, many things that can be done. Not all are really attractive, and let's hope they don't become necessary. But they "can" be done.

1. A 10% chop on employee wages. Obviously, the unions are not gonna like it. And it probably won't become necessary. And even with a 10% slice, you'll find WN employees better paid than their counterparts.

2. A 10% increase in aircraft utilization. Yes, WN has decent utilization...somewhere in the 11 hr per day range. You could kick that on up to 12.2 hrs a day. Thrown in some red eye transcons. That will have the double edged effect of increasing your utilization AND increasing your average stage length, which will further reduce the CASM.

3. Put two rows of seats back in the 737s, reducing pitch to something around 30 or 31 inches. That gives you 149 seats per aircraft. Congratulations - that, by itself, just reduced your CASM by almost 10%

4. Reducing staffing at the Res centers. Southwest's typical call answered within 20 seconds seems sort of funny when you hear the USAirways Dividend Miles Chairmans Preferred members griping about being on hold for 2 hrs.

I didn;t say my suggestions were particularly good ones, or even desirable. All I promised is that these suggestions would all increase efficiency by 10% or greater when taken together.
 
IceTitan447
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 29):
3. Put two rows of seats back in the 737s, reducing pitch to something around 30 or 31 inches. That gives you 149 seats per aircraft. Congratulations - that, by itself, just reduced your CASM by almost 10%

Off topic, do you know what WN's CASM is? Currently.
 
2H4
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:22 am




Quoting Incitatus (Reply 28):
That's not possible for Southwest.

It most certainly IS possible. As TxAgKuwait points out, the options may not be attractive, but they're there. Furthermore, it's safe to assume there are options none of are privy to.




Quoting Incitatus (Reply 28):
But if you think that's possible, go ahead and suggest a way for Southwest to improve productivity by 10%.

This a a perfect illustration of one very important difference between WN and many other carriers. The attitude of "It's not even possible" common at other carriers has not helped those carriers to avoid their current financial woes.

Conversely, encouraging management and employees to think outside the box, and cultivating the idea that anything is possible has proven to work well for the more successful carriers, WN in particular.

The key? Never define the impossible. The second you label a goal as impossible to achieve, people will stop striving for it. Sure, the end goal ultimately may not be realized, but if you get halfway there, that's a gain your pessimistic philosophy would never have seen.

Personally, I would introduce a Six Sigma methodology/Kaizan competition. Every department would be eligible to participate. The department or person that, over the course of a year, streamlined their processes, demonstrated continuous improvement, and cut costs where appropriate...without adversely affecting the end product or service...would be awarded a healthy sum of money. Of course, there would be all kinds of details to sort out, but I think a 10% gain in productivity would be very workable.

Incitatus, I'm sure you'll argue that I'm dreaming, or that I have no concept of the realities of business. The fact is, I simply don't resign myself to mediocrity.




2H4


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OPNLguy
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting Continental (Reply 27):
Sweet! Never would have known that! What was keeping them from the 162nm limit in the first place?

The fact that we didn't have liveVESTS onboard. Seat-bottom cushions only get you out to 50nm max...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
txagkuwait
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:39 am

For Q4 2005, CASM was 8.42 cents. Ex-fuel it was 6.57 cents.

For the whole year, it was 7.94 cents, ex-fuel was 6.37 cents.

Need to keep in mind, too, when comparing to the CASMs of other carriers, that is on an average stage length of 607 miles.
 
atrude777
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:34 am

Cool, I will have to look out for the safety demo on my STL-FLL flight as im think the route takes us over the gulf will have to check it out.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
RyGuy
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 4):
What other 737 operators are approved for extended overwater ops

In December of 2005 WestJet WS got their ETOPS in order for their flights to Hawaii from Vancouver. Very Cool, they are now permetted to fly for 3 hours over water in their Boeing 737-800 series aircraft.


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planespotting
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:29 am

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 22):
It should be noted that these offshore routes threaten the very existence of the DFW airport and the North Texas economy....................

hahaha. Perhaps Pete Sessions (North Texas GOP Congressman) can add a rider onto some bill "The Sessions Amendment" prohibiting any aircraft registered to a company based at DAL from being able to fly more than one mile over water.
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2H4
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:33 am




Quoting Planespotting (Reply 36):
Perhaps Pete Sessions (North Texas GOP Congressman) can add a rider onto some bill "The Sessions Amendment" prohibiting any aircraft registered to a company based at DAL from being able to fly more than one mile over water.

Well, it would only be fair, right?  Wink




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 36):
some bill "The Sessions Amendment" prohibiting any aircraft registered to a company based at DAL from being able to fly more than one mile over water.

Ssshh!  shhh 
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 29):
Southwest to improve productivity by 10%.<<



Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 29):
A 10% chop on employee wages

So how does a paycut count as an increase in PRODUCTIVITY? That just cuts costs, not increase in any output.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
hoosiercfi
Posts: 91
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:17 am

I just flew the ISP-BWI flight last night and remembered thinking that they normally didn't do lifevests. They either didn't do it on my Friday BWI-ISP flight, or I just didn't remember it.

On a side note, does this new 162 nm rule open up the possibility to fly any Caribbean routes (not that WN will go international anytime soon)?
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:25 am

Quoting HoosierCFI (Reply 40):
They either didn't do it on my Friday BWI-ISP flight, or I just didn't remember it.

Old procedures in effect on Friday. New procedures went into effect on Sunday.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
luvfa
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 10:05 pm

RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 41):
Old procedures in effect on Friday. New procedures went into effect on Sunday.

Bear with us when we do the "new" safety demo. This is new for us too, LOL.
 
Cactus739
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:40 am

Quoting Johnboy (Reply 15):
I thought, "Now wait a minute...I've never seen THAT before on Southwest."

For all those that hate the comedy routines on Southwest beware, they now have something new they can joke about in the safety demo....  

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 3):
The 162nm limit doesn't get one very far if they were going, say, LAX-HNL

When are you guys starting HNL?   

ps - my 1500th post!

[Edited 2006-02-07 00:40:37]
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 43):

When are you guys starting HNL?

Just as soon as you guys start running the 757s LAX-SYD...  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:54 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 6):
No rafts on SWA aircraft, just vests...

That would explain why I saw a F/A putting a vest on while I was provisioning a flight at SAN last night...

It looked like she was going to use it during the safety demo. Either that or she was just playing with it during her down time between flights to get ready for today. Is it a required part of the demo now? And if so, on all flights? Or just those that will be flying the offshore routes?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
scxmechanic
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 1999 10:20 am

RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:07 am

They are doing them on all flights to practice and be consistent... That's what I read in one of the publications down in our MX office...
 
incitatus
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:46 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 29):
Many, many, many things that can be done. Not all are really attractive,

Do I have to read past that? All these suggestions have a big hurdle to cover either with employees or customers. You might as well have suggested productivity can be enhanced by having people work for free. And the last one on call centers, if it was a significant source of savings, it would have been already done. Also the pitch wouldn't be 31 or 30. It would be 30 only.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 31):
The key? Never define the impossible.

Unfortunately I've had a scientific education that prevents me from being swayed by pretty writing.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 31):
Personally, I would introduce a Six Sigma methodology/Kaizan competition.

Too easy to see the distinction between substance and fluff.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 31):
Of course, there would be all kinds of details to sort out,

Yes, there always is.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 31):
but I think a 10% gain in productivity would be very workable.

Go do it then. 10% productivity improvement is worth a fortune to Southwest or any company. For so much, they will pay you in airplanes instead of cash. But... what's your track record?
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dagolden1
Posts: 46
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:11 pm

I noticed this as the flight attendant stumbled through the life vest spiel on my way to TUL from DAL today. I guess they have to give the speech every time no matter what even when they don't travel over large bodies of water. It was kind of odd.
 
swatpamike
Posts: 469
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RE: Something New On Southwest...

Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:37 pm

Hello all

If you all don't think 162nm vs 50nm makes a difference, ask the passengers today that where on average 15 minutes early arriving in TPA today.

From a ramp point of view, its nice to have the extra time to make that turn. I hope the time gains carries through into the 6 week spring break period.

Cheers

swatpamike