Carpethead
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JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:52 pm

JL will only fly a single daily on the NRT-LHR beginning summer schedule this year.

KIX-LHR will go switch to 772ER from 744.

This is quite a shock since most carriers want as much seats (premium & Y) on flights originating from there.
I wonder if they are going to sell the extra slots to the highest bidder like EK, QR or EY.
 
BestWestern
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:03 pm

LHR NRT is a dog at present - BA have recently stated that yields on this route are very poor, and they are losing money on the route.
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satx
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:13 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 1):
LHR NRT is a dog at present - BA have recently stated that yields on this route are very poor, and they are losing money on the route.

I don't doubt what you're saying, but seeing as how JL appears to be in rather bad shape at the moment I'm guessing that's the main issue with their decision. I've flown JL and JO a few times and I found their in-flight service to be good compared to US airlines. However their recent safety record leaves a lot to be desired, IMO. Hopefully they'll learn from their experience and be more careful in the future.
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vfw614
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:14 pm

What will happen to the slots ? Sold ? Grandfathered by another carrier ?
 
FinnWings
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:53 pm

Sounds a very logical solution by JL in my opinion. Considering that JL is entering into OneWorld it is a good solution to reduce capacity between Japan and LHR if there is over capacity. This will benefit JL and BA as both will have a better yields and load factor. You should also remember that Japan-LHR flights goes exactly over Southern-Finland which also makes Helsinki as a convenient transfer airport for AY or BA flights to LHR.

Any info if JL is planning flights to HEL? Finnair is unable to get more slots for NRT and geographically Finland is closer to Japan than any other European country. AY would offer extensive onward connections from Nagoya/Narita/Osaka- Helsinki flights not only to LHR but almost everywhere in Europe.

Best Regards,
FinnWings
 
behramjee
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:11 pm

You have 4 airlines flying daily year round nonstops to NRT from LHR i.e. BA, VS, JL and ANA + many airlines flying one stop via their hubs who also give these 4 airlines a run for their money such as AF-LH-KL-AZ-AY-SK-SQ-TG-CX-MH-KE-OZ-CA.

Since JL would be joining One World, I wouldnt be surprised to see them codesharing and revenue sharing with BA on both airlines's LHR-NRT route similar to the QF-BA arrangement on the LHR-SYD-LHR route.
 
jaysit
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
However their recent safety record leaves a lot to be desired, IMO. Hopefully they'll learn from their experience and be more careful in the future.

What's wrong with JL's recent safety record? I thought the last major incident they had was back in 1985, more than 20 years ago.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 5):
You have 4 airlines flying daily year round nonstops to NRT from LHR i.e. BA, VS, JL and ANA + many airlines flying one stop via their hubs who also give these 4 airlines a run for their money such as AF-LH-KL-AZ-AY-SK-SQ-TG-CX-MH-KE-OZ-CA.

I can understand if the Northern European carriers compete with the British and Japanese carriers on this route. But SQ, CX and TG? That would mean adding over 6 hours of flying time plus transit time to an already long flight.
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TokyoNarita
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:23 am

According to Asahi.com, JAL also announced that it plans to reduce 10% of seats being offered in international market due to poor yields on some routes dominated by leisure travelers. Besides the discontinuation of the second daily NRT-LHR, NRT-LAS-LAX-NRT, and KIX-LAX are also listed. JAL plans to reduce NRT-BKK from 3 times a day to twice daily....KIX-Denpasar will be cut to three times a week from daily...JAL also plans to transfer NRT-Jakarta, Ho Chi Minh, Hanoi, and Sydney to its low cost subsidiary JalWays.

It looks like no more JAL at Vegas...

TokyoNarita.

[Edited 2006-02-06 18:26:57]
 
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airbuseric
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:35 am

From Oct 27, 2006 - JL will change from 744 to 772ER on NRT-AMS flights.
This also means a reduce of seats offered on this route

Eric
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
 
N79969
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:56 am

Reduced flying means reduced need for airplanes...I wonder how they will deal with issue. They cannot keep them parked and return to profitability.
 
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scbriml
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 6):
What's wrong with JL's recent safety record? I thought the last major incident they had was back in 1985, more than 20 years ago.

I can't remember the exact details, but there have indeed been a number of incidents recently which has raised some serious doubts about the airline's leadership and safety standards.

I'm sure other can fill you in with the exact details - they have all been discussed here.
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jacobin777
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 1):
LHR NRT is a dog at present - BA have recently stated that yields on this route are very poor, and they are losing money on the route.

interesting that BA still sends 2 744's there....maybe along with JL downsizing the route, and BA switching to smaller planes such as a 777, yields would improve...
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cedarjet
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:29 am

I'm really surprised JAL are struggling, with worldwide air travel stronger than it's ever been, at least in terms of numbers of people hitting the road.

Also surprised there isn't enough premium travel to Sydney to justify mainline. Tonnes of Japanese business in Oz, and likewise too I suspect.
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N79969
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:36 am

JAL's image has taken a real beating because of the safety lapses. While some of them have been blown out of the proportion by an oversensitized Japanese media, there were several incidents/lapses that were pretty serious. Many Japanese are flocking to ANA which is actually showing profit growth.

I think another big factor is the poorly executed merger with JAS which is still incomplete and has burdened the company with a lot of redundant staff and levels of management.
 
FinnWings
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:26 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 10):
I can't remember the exact details, but there have indeed been a number of incidents recently which has raised some serious doubts about the airline's leadership and safety standards.

That is correct indeed. JL also gave an announcement a while ago where they stated that safety hasn't been the highest priority recently. This is extremely alarming as safety should always be the most important thing for every airline no matter what is the situation. It is also a very exceptional confession as usually airlines will deny that they have endangered safety even it is obvious.

It is good that JL knows the problem and they are trying to do everything to improve the safety now.

Best Regards,
FinnWings

[Edited 2006-02-06 22:27:48]
 
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PM
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:33 am

Later this year I'm moving to live in Japan. I've never flown either ANA or JAL. How are they perceived in Japan? Is one "better" than the other? My "home" airport will be KIX.
 
lazyshaun
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:39 am

But with all these cut in international traffic, where will the extra a/c go? Thats a lot of 747's and other heavies sitting around.

[Edited 2006-02-06 22:40:20]
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PM
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting Lazyshaun (Reply 16):
c/a

a/c?
 
cloud4000
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:46 am

How is JAL tackling labor costs? They must be high as compared to other Asian and European carriers.
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CRGsFuture
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:01 am

I think the NRT LHR route being cut to once daily makes sense, not only for the yields but how many British people travel to Tokyo every year, some rather low number right?

I don't know about you but it makes perfect sense.

By the what were JL's recent incidencies?
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andessmf
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 12):
I'm really surprised JAL are struggling, with worldwide air travel stronger than it's ever been, at least in terms of numbers of people hitting the road.

Again, Japan is slowly suffering a population crisis (look it up in Wikipedia), with an aging and decreasing population, the demand for air travel goes down.
 
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airbuseric
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Lazyshaun (Reply 16):
But with all these cut in international traffic, where will the extra a/c go? Thats a lot of 747's and other heavies sitting around.

Intl route cuts, and others go from 744 to 772ER/773ER
means, 744's will get unused now,
JL will convert those to freighters (first to be JA8902 entering service in April/May 06, now conversion at XMN), and JL Cargo older 747-200F's will be retired within a few years time from now.
So the 744's coming available will be converted to freighters, and some will replace the older 747 models (742/743) which are still in active service with JL.

Eric
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jaysit
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:23 am

This is interesting especially since London remains a favorite destination for Japanese tourists. I guess they're all opting for cheaper SE Asian or European options than JAL.
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b741
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:41 am

I wonder if UAL(747-400) or DL(767-400) will continue the LAS-NRT route?
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Amy
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:06 am

My dad recently flew this route with JAL and said that the product was not up to the standards of BA and VS.
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Coronado990
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:24 am

I guess the A-380 won't be on this route anytime soon.
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ikramerica
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:05 am

With fuel prices high, leisure travelers will lose seat availability. JL and NH are both finding it better to run 772 and 773 aircraft rather than 747s, often with the same or near the same number of premium seats and nearly the same cargo ability, but fewer wasteful Y seats. It is a trend that works against the A380/748 concept and toward the 773ER/346HGW being the biggest planes most airlines will want, with 787/350/772 sized aircraft doing the bulk of international routes in the future. There will always be routes for those super jumbos, but the idea that they will dominate is losing momentum.

Unless of course fuel prices come down. But right now premium+cargo operations are where the money is on these longer runs with the larger planes. 380s and 748s would flood the market with both premium and Y, lowering yields in both cabins.

Which also lends creedence to the JQ, EKexpress concepts of international LCC routes, if they can work the numbers out right on the BOB and other Pay to Play services. But again, those will only work with the most efficient jets like the 787/350, or theoretically with fully packed 748 or 388/9 in this fuel cost environment, holding 550-800 pax. These airlines take all the leisure travelers with little or no service, while the other carriers cater to the more premium traveler with higher prices and real service.
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UpperDeck79
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:30 am

Quoting PM (Reply 15):
Later this year I'm moving to live in Japan. I've never flown either ANA or JAL. How are they perceived in Japan? Is one "better" than the other? My "home" airport will be KIX.

Both are considered expensive for international travel, since they rarely slash prices like UA, NW, AA and others do.

Some people seam a bit too worried nowadays for JAL's recent safety lapses. Domestic flying on both is expensive (no real competition on most routes), but with package tours reasonable prices can be found. Only ANA has English language online reservation and purchase for domestic flights (works very well!). Since ANA's and JAL's domestic prices usually match, people don't really seem to care which one they fly (unless they are trying to collect miles). (Based on what I've heard from my Japanese friends!)

Other domestic carriers are, for instance, Skymark, Air DO and (from March) Starflyer.
AY and ANA rock!
 
vincewy
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:05 pm

Also keep in mind that in the past, high speed rail (Shinkansen) lines were limited (only Tokyo-Osaka), but now it's expanding, once the whole nation is linked from Kagoshima to Sapporo by Shinkansen, you'll see domestic air traffic really taking a hit. On a brighter side, this will free up some slots at airports, perhaps linking rail domestically to major INT'L airports.
 
UpperDeck79
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:54 pm

Quoting Vincewy (Reply 28):
Also keep in mind that in the past, high speed rail (Shinkansen) lines were limited (only Tokyo-Osaka), but now it's expanding, once the whole nation is linked from Kagoshima to Sapporo by Shinkansen, you'll see domestic air traffic really taking a hit. On a brighter side, this will free up some slots at airports, perhaps linking rail domestically to major INT'L airports.

But even with Shinkansen Tokyo-Fukuoka takes more than 5 hours which is quite a lot. Flight time is 2 hours and you only need to show up at the airport 20 min before departure. Tokyo-Kagoshima would be over 6 hours by Shinkansen and Fukuoka-Sapporo closer to 11 hours... So I think people will keep flying for quite some time.  Wink
AY and ANA rock!
 
vincewy
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:10 pm

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 29):
But even with Shinkansen Tokyo-Fukuoka takes more than 5 hours which is quite a lot

I'm talking about shorter city pairs such as Tokyo-Nagoya, Tokyo-Osaka, Tokyo-Sendai, Osaka-Fukuoka, plus Shinkansen brings in new model every few years with higher speed (ie Nozomi), these are linked between city centers too, unlike airports that are some miles away from the cities (even HND). In the future it's possible that airlines (JAL and ANA) may sell tickets with domestic rail connections (it may have started), which is already available in Germany.
 
UpperDeck79
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:33 pm

Quoting Vincewy (Reply 30):
I'm talking about shorter city pairs such as Tokyo-Nagoya, Tokyo-Osaka, Tokyo-Sendai, Osaka-Fukuoka

There are no flights HND-NGO and HND-SDJ at the moment and the Shinkansen has been running Osaka-Fukuoka and Osaka-Tokyo already for quite some time, so I can't see big changes happening any time soon.

Only when the Chuo Shinkansen (Maglev) starts - if ever - between Tokyo and Osaka doing the trip in 1 hour, only then can we see a big changes in this area.

Quoting Vincewy (Reply 30):
these are linked between city centers too, unlike airports that are some miles away from the cities

How many people actually live close to Tokyo Station or Shin-Osaka station? They are not that close to homes either.

It's not only the time that matters, it's also the price: you can fly HND-ITM for 11 000 yen on certain tickets when the Shinkansen ticket costs about 12 000 yen!
AY and ANA rock!
 
vincewy
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:19 pm

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 31):
How many people actually live close to Tokyo Station or Shin-Osaka station? They are not that close to homes either.

It's not only the time that matters, it's also the price: you can fly HND-ITM for 11 000 yen on certain tickets when the Shinkansen ticket costs about 12 000 yen!

Point taken, I'm speaking of business travelers, you can hop on the train, arrive in center of Tokyo where many companies are located, unlike going to/from airports which is another added cost(time) to the air fares. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up not using Maglev for Chuo Shinkansen, sure it can go 500 km/hr, but the extra cost will far outweigh the benefit (time saved), China has decided not to use Maglev trains for their proposed High Speed Rail lines, the train to PVG is a financial flop.

I think this discussion warrants another thread relating to impact of air travel with birth of high speed rail (in many countries soon).
 
UpperDeck79
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:11 pm

Quoting Vincewy (Reply 32):
Point taken, I'm speaking of business travelers, you can hop on the train, arrive in center of Tokyo where many companies are located, unlike going to/from airports which is another added cost(time) to the air fares.

Of course, that's true and I'm not arguing against it. I just wanted to raise the fact that, in my opinion, big changes to the current situation are not coming in the near future.

Quoting Vincewy (Reply 32):
I think this discussion warrants another thread relating to impact of air travel with birth of high speed rail (in many countries soon).

That's true, our conversation has been mostly off-topic. But the situation between high speed rail and aviation has been discussed quite a lot, maybe not in the context of Japan, though.
AY and ANA rock!
 
BestWestern
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:37 pm

http://www.asiatraveltips.com/news06/62-JAL.shtml

"An income improvement of 8 billion yen is expected to result from route suspensions,"

JAL will increase the number of flights between Tokyo and:

Chicago
Los Angeles
Vancouver
Taipei.

The airline will suspend service from
Tokyo to Las Vegas
Osaka - Los Angeles route,
Two routes from Seoul to regional cities in Japan.

Flight frequency will be reduced on:
Tokyo - London
Tokyo - Bangkok

JALways will take over flight operations on
Tokyo - Jakarta (from March 26, 2006)
Tokyo - Ho Chi Minh (from October 1st 2006)
Tokyo - Hanoi (from October 1st 2006)
Osaka - Hanoi (from October 1st 2006)
Tokyo - Sydney routes (from October 1st 2006)

JAL will expand the operations of domestic subsidiary JAL Express by the transfer of three MD-81 aircraft to that airline.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
abrelosojos
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 34):
Tokyo - Sydney routes (from October 1st 2006)

= To me this is the most surprising of all the announcements. NRT-SYD not having premium traffic is plain weird.

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
kaitak
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:43 am

This means that for the first time in 35 years, there will be no JAL (passenger) 747s flying to LHR.

Hopefully things will recover soon.

What happens to JL's slots at LHR? Does it just "park" them or does it sell them on. Might they consider a direct route from NGO?
 
cloud4000
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:21 am

What about JL's operations in KIX? I'm shocked that they completely axed KIX-LAX, given that Osaka is Japan's biggest commercial city, with plenty of First and Business Class passengers.

Who are the players on this route?
Boston, USA
 
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airbuseric
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting Cloud4000 (Reply 37):
Who are the players on this route?

KIX-LAX,... no other carriers there then JL only. So JL will terminate services on this route, that means the route is disappearing completely.
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
 
N79969
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:33 am

Quoting Cloud4000 (Reply 37):
Osaka is Japan's biggest commercial city, with plenty of First and Business Class passengers.

Besides being the capital, Tokyo is indisputably Japan's commercial center. Osaka was historically a commercial center though.
 
ozvirginuk
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 19):
I think the NRT LHR route being cut to once daily makes sense, not only for the yields but how many British people travel to Tokyo every year, some rather low number right?

I think you'd be surprised actually. Japan is a becoming a very popular destination, anthough there is also alot of student traffic on this route.

Quoting PM (Reply 15):
I've never flown either ANA or JAL. How are they perceived in Japan? Is one "better" than the other?

I think that these days NH is perceived to have the edge over JL. What I find strange is that it's a Japanese carrier dropping a service. I have a Japansese lady who works for me, and she has said on many occassions that the Japanese are very loyal to their home carriers. Having said that, the Japanese carriers aren't into the discounting that some of their competitors are. If price is becoming an issue (it previously wasn't in this market) then they may be pricing themselves out of the market.

Oz
 
B747-4U3
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 36):
What happens to JL's slots at LHR? Does it just "park" them or does it sell them on. Might they consider a direct route from NGO?

They used to operated a thrice weekly M11 service from NGO to LHR. I think it was suspended after 9/11.
 
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PM
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting Ozvirginuk (Reply 40):
I think that these days NH is perceived to have the edge over JL.

Does their Star membership give them another edge?
 
col
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:53 am

2005 was not a good growth year for LHR. Many carriers have seen the merits of flying from the UK regions with EK, CO etc. This may have had a negative effect on BA codeshare/alliance partners, as LHR is not the friendliest of Transit points.
 
N79969
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting Ozvirginuk (Reply 40):
What I find strange is that it's a Japanese carrier dropping a service. I have a Japansese lady who works for me, and she has said on many occassions that the Japanese are very loyal to their home carriers.

Japanese airlines drop and add service like other companies. For example, ANA used to fly to Chicago, Yangon, and Sydney. JAL used to operate to Washington, DC. All of these services were dropped.

Quoting Ozvirginuk (Reply 40):
anthough there is also alot of student traffic on this route.

This would help explain why airlines like to downgauge from 747 to A340/B777.
 
Concorde001
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:34 am

Quoting Col (Reply 43):
2005 was not a good growth year for LHR. Many carriers have seen the merits of flying from the UK regions with EK, CO etc. This may have had a negative effect on BA codeshare/alliance partners, as LHR is not the friendliest of Transit points.

While I agree about carriers realising the benefits of flying from the regions, 2005 was not a bad year for LHR. As for growth, slot restricted LHR can only grow so much, but nevertheless, LHR saw alot of new services in 2005:
In 2005:

  • Jet Airways began daily flights to DEL and BOM
  • British Airways began double daily flights to BOM, five weekly flights to BLR and increased flights to MAA (next year BA goes double daily to DEL). BA also began a new service to PVG as well.
  • VS began daily flights to BOM (and this year will start DXB and an extra flight to NYC)
  • EK started an extra service to DXB
  • In Jan this year Air Sahara began four weekly flights to DEL
  • bmi began four weekly flights to BOM and three weekly flights to RUH and this year began services to DOH .
  • China Eastern have increased (or will increase this year) flights to PVG from four weekly to five weekly and then daily.


Apart from UA's cut in services to JFK and BA's downsizing of one or two of its US routes from 772s to 763s, 2005 has been a very good year for LHR. We must not forget that there are many carriers knocking at the door for LHR access - for example 9W has made it clear that it wants 5 daily flights into LHR.
Also there has not been a negative impact on BA - the airline recently report Q3 operating profit of £175 million and its nine-month profits were up by 2% to £529m. VS also reported good profits from its 2% of slots at LHR in May 2005 of £68m (its highest profit since 1999 and up from £20.9m for the 10 months to the end of February 2004).

So 2005 was a pretty good year for LHR - and with T5 to open in 2008 making transiting so much more easier and the proposed Heathrow Master Plan to begin in that year (subject to CAA approval), it's not all bad for LHR! If I'm not mistaken mixed mode operation may come into operation by 2010 freeing up loads more slots, allowing CO,US,DL,NW and other airlines to start services!
 
col
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RE: JL Reduces Flying To LHR

Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:11 pm

Concorde001,

Thanks for the information, which is very interesting. I am not arguing that there is new service and that the airlines are increasing their yields. I looked at it purely through PAX numbers, which shows a very low growth level. I don't think it was even 1%, maybe you can correct me on this? The 1% seems to be coming from the new airlines as you are showing in your reply, so the legacies, like the JL's must be loosing pax numbers?

Col