Magyarorszag
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AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:49 am


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When I saw that picture, I was somewhat surprised. Did AA operated regularly its LHR services with DC-10-10s or was it a unique occasion?

Thanks.

M.
 
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fxramper
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:57 am

Actually discussed with my uncle recentally. He told me when he was right seating it for AA on the DC10 he flew regularly to HNL and London. He didn't clairfy LHR or LGW. I'd assume he meant LHR if this pic is in the database!



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Ned Kelly
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:01 am

In the early 90's and possibly late 80's, American began using their DC10-10's on services across the pond to LHR. If my memory serves me correct the only ones that they used were the DC10-10ER's. I think that they had about 3 aircraft converted to ER.

I am not at home at the moment, so I can't check for the registrations that were DC10-10ER's. I think N125AA was one of them.

If anyone else can add or clarify, please do.
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:30 am

My grandfather flew on an AA DC-10 (I think it was a -30, though) from DFW-LGW for the 50th anniversary of the Battle of Britain.
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ChiGB1973
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:38 am

Interesting that is the only photo of the DC-10 in the database at LHR. There are only 16 pictures of AA MD-11s in the database at LHR. Must not have been a very popular plane for AA to use to LHR.

M
 
Leezyjet
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 4):
Interesting that is the only photo of the DC-10 in the database at LHR. There are only 16 pictures of AA MD-11s in the database at LHR. Must not have been a very popular plane for AA to use to LHR.

Or maybe it was due to the fact that back then digital camera's were unheard of, making uploading of such shots to the then unheard of internet quite difficult.  Wink

There are probably hundreds of photo's sitting people's attics that just have not been scanned, edited and uploaded due to it being too time consuming compared to digital photography hence the reason for a low number of shots. Not just of AA either or DC-10's, but loads of a/c and airlines from the 50's-late 90's will not be represented by a high number of shots in the db, until the internet and digital photography became much more popular.

 Smile
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willyj
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:52 am

I flew AA DC-10 from LHR to BOS back in the early 90's. I believe that AA also used them initially (along with 747SPs) on their flights to JFK, and their flights from ORD.

AA also used to fly the DC-10 from JFK - ORY
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 5):
Or maybe it was due to the fact that back then digital camera's were unheard of, making uploading of such shots to the then unheard of internet quite difficult

Very true. Maybe some of those will get scanned after this thread!

M
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:54 am

IIRC, AA used the DC-10-10-ER From ORD to LHR soon after purchasing the route from TWA. The aircraft was usually routed from DFW at either 1PM or 1:30Pm to ORD as a part of the slew of DFW/ORD flights. Flight number changed at ORD. Reverse later in the day, and I think the ORD-DFW was at 6 or 6:30 PM.timed for extra business traffic. The Aircraft were given over nights at DFW. Now, IF my memeory is correct, there was a period when the same was done only it was LAX not DFW. Maybe someone else remembers for sure.

Hope this helps.
 
LHR777
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:08 am

I worked at AA at LHR in those days...we used the DC-10-10ER for LHR-BOS-LHR service only. The DC-10-30 was used on the ORD and JFK services. Actually, JFK was served by the 2 747SP's and the 767-200ER and -300ER fleet in the early 90's.
 
sleekjet
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:28 am

As I recall, the AA DC-10 had a 2-5-2 seating arrangement. Being in the middle seat of the middle section was about as claustrophobic as it gets.
II Cor. 4:17-18
 
Magyarorszag
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:01 am

Thank you all for your answers. Now that the DC-10-10ER was mentioned, if my memory doesn't betray me, I think that it was indicated in the JP airlines fleet. So if anyone still has one from the early 1990s, he or she can possibly give us the registration of these DC-10-10ERs AA had.

On a technical level, were these aircraft equipped with additional fuel tanks in the cargo hold? Was the number of passengers limited to allow a longer range without any technical modifications (additional fuel tanks)?
 
cedarjet
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:09 am

A DC10-10ER?! Wha...?! I thought the whole point is that the -10 was short and medium haul (ie NY-LA) and the -30 was the long haul model (ie HEL-PEK). How can you have a -10ER? Why would you, given the existence of the -30? The -10 doesn't have the centre main gear, so how much extra weight (read: fuel) can a -10 have carried? -10ER? Never 'eard of it mate. I think you're confused.

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Magyarorszag
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 12):
I thought the whole point is that the -10 was short and medium haul

You're right, but in the past airlines like Scanair, Premiair, CP Air, Arrow Air, Capitol Air, Laker Airways 1(UK) & 2(US), Cal-Air, Novair, Western, American Trans Air, Key Air, Omni Air International, World Airways, perhaps Sun Country with DC-10-10 & -15, and probably some other crossed the Atlantic with the DC-10-10, most of the time with a fuel stop.
 
LAXintl
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:37 am

There were indeed some higher gross weight DC-10-10s.

The basic DC-10-10 MTOW was about 430,000lbs, while higher weight versions were available up to 455,000lb if I remember correctly.

AA referred to such aircraft as the DC-10-10ER. Others that operated these higher weight versions (but never used the -10ER nickname) included Scanair, Sun Country and Western.
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Magyarorszag
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 14):
AA referred to such aircraft as the DC-10-10ER. Others that operated these higher weight versions (but never used the -10ER nickname) included Scanair, Sun Country and Western.

It appears that the AA DC-10-10 photographed at LHR (N166AA) was in fact N901WA with Western Airlines.
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[Edited 2006-02-06 21:34:02]
 
IAHAAPLATINUM
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:14 am

I flew on an AA DC-10 BOS-LHR-BOS several times in the winter of 1991-1992, although I don't know if any of the flights were on an -ER or not. Yes, the configuration in coach was 2-5-2, but that time of year the flights tended not to be full, and it was typically easy to get at least 2 seats to myself, if not more. I miss the DC-10s!
 
hiflyer
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:19 am

The Orbis flying lab is listed in some areas as a DC10-10er...was that an old AA frame?

Add the original National to the DC10-10 across the pond...JFK-AMS. Shortlived.
 
moparman
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:22 am

Forgive my ignorance in this matter:

Was the DC-10-10 not designed specifically for North American transcontinental routes as it lacked the intercontinental range? For the intercontental routes there was the DC-10-30/40?

[Edited 2006-02-06 22:22:30]
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Magyarorszag
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 17):
The Orbis flying lab is listed in some areas as a DC10-10er...was that an old AA frame?

It should have went to AA, but was insteed kept by MDC for flight testing, and delivered to Laker Airways in 1977. It later migrated to TZ, EN (Call-Air Intl & Novair) before flying for Orbis.

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 17):
Add the original National to the DC10-10 across the pond...JFK-AMS. Shortlived.

It most certainly was a DC-10-30 as NA got four of them before merging with PA. They even leased one from NZ in 1979, in full Kiwi airline livery with a fleet number '85' on the nose as a clue.


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Cheers,

M.
 
Lurch
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:18 am

AA had 2 DC-10-15ERs that also operated out of LHR at one point!
 
sevenheavy
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:46 am

When AA took over TWA's LHR routes in June '91 they were a little short of suitable aircraft to operate such a large number of routes at such short notice. The DC10-10 only just had the range for transatlantic ops and was limited to LHR-BOS. The rest of the routes were served as follows (from memory)

LHR - ORD : DC10-30/B767
LHR - LAX : B763
LHR - JFK : B747SP / B767
LHR - MIA : B767
LHR - EWR :B767

During the mid 90's almost all of these routes (with the exception of LAX for some reason) were served at some point by MD11's. It was the norm to see 6 or 7 lined up together mid morning.

Regards
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Magyarorszag
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting Lurch (Reply 20):
AA had 2 DC-10-15ERs that also operated out of LHR at one point!

AA never had a single DC-10-15ER, not even DC-10-15. They had DC-10-10s and -30s. The only US airline to operate the DC-10-15 was Sun Country, and there's never been DC-10-15ER at all. The sole DC-10 version that was also proposed as ER was the -30.

Regards,

M.
 
ikramerica
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:12 am

Quoting Moparman (Reply 18):
Was the DC-10-10 not designed specifically for North American transcontinental routes as it lacked the intercontinental range? For the intercontental routes there was the DC-10-30/40?

Yes, but as explained, BOS-LHR is not really all that far. It's only 2850nm.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
BN747
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:43 am

There was no DC-10-10ER, the DC-10-30 was the only intercontinental range DC-10 versions available, aside from the heavier-rated DC-10-40, which only NWA and JAL operated.

A weight-restricted DC-10-10 (plus fuel stop) could do the job as mentioned above.

The AA DC-10 pictured above (at Heathrow) was indeed originally Western'.
The ship is now in svc with Fed Ex. But Western also operated a few DC-10-30s as did AA.

46908 95 DC10-10 CF6-6K 04/19/73 AA (now Fed Ex) N166AA 558 N901WA

The two Sun Country DC-10-15s were both ex-Mexicana machines, below:

48259 357 DC10-15 CF6-50C2F SUN COUNTRY N154SY N10045, XA-TDI
48295 374 DC10-15 CF6-50C2F SUN COUNTRY N151SY N1004B, XA-MEX

BN747
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scxmechanic
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:29 am

SY did in fact take the DC-10 across the North Atlantic many times. I did several of those trips on N153SY as it had (I think) a lower zero fuel weight meaning we could uplift more payload.

We could ferry over from MSP to SNN empty but not with pax. The airplane just didn't have that mush fuel capacity. If I recall it only had one AUX tank installed.

Also the aircraft was non-RVSM compliant. So going over we had to climb to FL410 or take a less attractive option of getting beat up at FL280 and below. Lots of turbulence and less options for getting out of it not to mention the fuel burn!

Coming back we would have to stop in SNN (if coming from Central Europe) and somewhere on the US East Coast like JFK or BOS for gas.

I did do several trips across the Atlantic on the 727-200RE and that was fun! But I preferred the quiet cockpit of the DC-10. Much more room and a LOT less noise plus the view was amazing.. Such good visibility from those huge windows.
 
hiflyer
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:45 am

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 19):
t most certainly was a DC-10-30 as NA got four of them before merging with PA.

nope..NAL used the -10 for JFKAMS. The Air New Zealand DC10 operation was brought on by the AA DC10 ORD crash and subsequent US fleet grounding as since the aircraft was foreign registered NAL could still operate MIA LHR during that time. It could not fly domestically. Heard that it was the bird that crashed in the antarctic a little later after being returned but never confirmed that. Yes there were 4 -30's (80,81,82,83) but they were full time supporting MIA to Europe hence the use of the -10 ex JFK.

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 19):
It should have went to AA, but was insteaed kept by MDC for flight testing, and delivered to Laker Airways in 1977. It later migrated to TZ, EN (Call-Air Intl & Novair) before flying for Orbis.

And Sir Freddie ran that bird trans Atlantic as well...forgot about Lake also. Thanks!
 
C133
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:57 am

I won't claim to be an authority on this, but I flew captain on the AA DC-10s from 1984 to 1996. According to my operating manual all AA DC-10-10s had a max take-off weight of 430,000 pounds. N123, 124, 145, 147, 154, 160, and 162 had a max landing weight of 363,500, vs. the standard 347,800. The fuel section of the manual has a column for an aux tank labeled "(if installed)" and a capacity of 34,772 pounds. So, some airplanes did have the capability of carrying an extra 35k of fuel, the weight of which had to come out of payload. As always, a tradeoff. Finally, I never heard of the label "ER" applied to an AA DC-10. The -10 was used for west coast--Hawaii flights for many years, and the -30 utilized from DFW and ORD. Here I have to guess, but if dash 10s were in regular service to London, I'd bet it was from Boston and possibly New York. A300s were used that way for a short time. Hope this helps.
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ImperialEagle
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:50 am

Are we sure thats not a series 30 with the center gear retracted? I can't read the numbers.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
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LTU932
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 28):
Are we sure thats not a series 30 with the center gear retracted? I can't read the numbers.

No, because if the Series 30 would have the centre gear retracted, it could only be used for low gross weight flights (e.g. Testflights, Ferryflights, etc., though LH did use one of their DC-10), thus with the centre gear retracted, that DC-10 would be heavily weight restricted. If this was a Series 30, AA would have used it with the centre gear, unless there is an MX problem with it, which requires it to be retracted.
 
DC-10inLB
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:19 pm

I don't know how late in the game I'm jumping in, but what the hell, talking about one of my favorite planes

AA's DC-10-10ERs were registered as follows:
N117AA
N125AA
N166AA
Powered by CF6-6K2s
Max T/O wt in KGs for the -10ER is 206385, as opposed to 195045 on the standard -10. Apparently this is the same takeoff wt as the -15s according to JPfleets 90-91

The DC-10-15 was built in very small numbers, like 14 or something like that, specifically for hot/high ops for the Mexican flag carriers. It had the DC-10-10 airframe, and derated DC-10-30 engines. (CF6-50C2Fs) These planes later found their way into Suncountry who was the only US airline to operate the -15.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:38 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 29):



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 29):
No, because if the Series 30 would have the centre gear retracted, it could only be used for low gross weight flights (e.g. Testflights, Ferryflights, etc.,

O.K., well we do not know the particular circumstances surrounding this particular aircraft as photographed. So therefore, it is possible, unless identified as other than a series 30, that this may just be a series 30----with the center gear retracted. wink 
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
BN747
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:47 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 31):
O.K., well we do not know the particular circumstances surrounding this particular aircraft as photographed. So therefore, it is possible, unless identified as other than a series 30, that this may just be a series 30----with the center gear retracted.

Not it isn't... you can check my reply#24...

Quoting BN747 (Reply 24):

46908 95 DC10-10 CF6-6K 04/19/73 AA (now Fed Ex) N166AA 558 N901WA

Against, JPFleets or Airlinerlist.com's profile of the ship #46908 and see that she was built as a DC-10-10 and is still one (with Fed Ex). No DC-10-10 was ever converted to -30 by later adding a middle gear (along with whole lot of other retooling). Photo is quite clear in it's registration as well--N166AA

BN747
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Magyarorszag
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:22 pm

Quoting DC-10inLB (Reply 30):
AA's DC-10-10ERs were registered as follows:
N117AA
N125AA
N166AA
Powered by CF6-6K2s
Max T/O wt in KGs for the -10ER is 206385, as opposed to 195045 on the standard -10. Apparently this is the same takeoff wt as the -15s according to JPfleets 90-91

That goes the way I thought in reply 11.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 24):
There was no DC-10-10ER, the DC-10-30 was the only intercontinental range DC-10 versions available, aside from the heavier-rated DC-10-40, which only NWA and JAL operated.

So, I do you explain that Swissair had four DC-10-30ER (HB-IHL/M/N/O), the first two having been converted from DC-10-30 sometime after delivery, and the latest two delivered as ER. How about AY DC-10-30ER N345HC, which had then the highest MGTOW of any commercial DC-10; and the last three DC-10-30 of TG (HS-TMA/B/C) that were delivered as -30ER!

Quoting BN747 (Reply 24):
But Western also operated a few DC-10-30s as did AA.

Not a few, just one, N821L named for a while "The Londoner" in reference to their service to LGW from DEN & LAX.


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Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 28):
Are we sure thats not a series 30 with the center gear retracted? I can't read the numbers.

Yes, because it has the DC-10-10 shaped engines.

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 26):
The Air New Zealand DC10 operation was brought on by the AA DC10 ORD crash and subsequent US fleet grounding as since the aircraft was foreign registered NAL could still operate MIA LHR during that time. It could not fly domestically. Heard that it was the bird that crashed in the antarctic a little later after being returned but never confirmed that.

NA leased from NZ ZK-NZS, and it is ZK-NZP that crashed in Antartic.
 
BN747
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:47 pm

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 33):
So, I do you explain that Swissair had four DC-10-30ER (HB-IHL/M/N/O), the first two having been converted from DC-10-30 sometime after delivery, and the latest two delivered as ER. How about AY DC-10-30ER N345HC, which had then the highest MGTOW of any commercial DC-10; and the last three DC-10-30 of TG (HS-TMA/B/C) that were delivered as -30ER!

Read your own post bud, all DC-10-30s...

..my comment was...

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 33):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 24):
There was no DC-10-10ER, the DC-10-30 was the only intercontinental range DC-10 versions available, aside from the heavier-rated DC-10-40, which only NWA and JAL operated.

Still no DC-10-10ER.

BN747
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Magyarorszag
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:58 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
Still no DC-10-10ER.

Hum!    I have to admit that I went too fast on this one. My fault. Should have answered after I had drunk my coffee... You're absolutly right BN747!

[Edited 2006-02-07 12:00:40]
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:47 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 32):
Not it isn't... you can check my reply#24...

Missed reading it the first time around----- Embarrassment
I could not read the numbers of the a/c in the photo, and yes, there is the matter of the shape of the intake on #2.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
BN747
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
Still no DC-10-10ER.
Hum! ´ I have to admit that I went too fast on this one. My fault. Should have answered after I had drunk my coffee... You're absolutly right BN747!

No prob.. I'm amazed I spelled everything correctly given my horrific track record...

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 36):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 32):
Not it isn't... you can check my reply#24...
Missed reading it the first time around-----?
I could not read the numbers of the a/c in the photo, and yes, there is the matter of the shape of the intake on #2.

Not only that, look at the 'sharpened rod' that protrudes from the end of each engine on -10, the 30s and -40s (NW -40s only --JAL's -40s had blunt ended P&Ws), the -30s were more 'cone shaped' and were almost completely covered
whereas the -10s were not. The earliest -10 models all had an verticle aerodynamic clip or clamp like device encasing the sharp protrusion. And later, for whatever reason, they were removed.

BN747

[Edited 2006-02-07 14:17:56]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Magyarorszag
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RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:11 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 37):
ot only that, look at the 'sharpened rod' that protrudes from the end of each engine on -10, the 30s and -40s (NW -40s only --JAL's -40s had blunt ended P&Ws), the -30s were more 'cone shaped' and were almost completely covered
whereas the -10s were not. The earliest -10 models all had an verticle aerodynamic clip or clamp like device encasing the sharp protrusion. And later, for whatever reason, they were removed.

Here are the differents DC-10 tails & engines shapes.

Early (left) and later (right) DC-10-10, -10CF & (later only) -10F


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Photo © Rommel S. Dorado



DC-10-15


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Photo © Chris Coduto



Early (left) and later (right) DC-10-30, -30CF, -30ER (later only), -30F, KC-10A (later only) and KDC-10.


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Photo © Santhosh Fernandez
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Photo © CPH Aviation



NW (left) & JL (right) DC-10-40s


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Photo © James Richard Covington
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lijnden
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 1:34 am

RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:08 am

I would like to add that National NEVER flew DC-10-10's to AMS! Only the DC-10-30's series. Back in those days there were also all kinds of restrictions with DC-10-10 like there is now with ETOPS. I believe after they allowed two engine planes to cross the atlantic, the DC-10-10 could cross as well.

National Airlines international DC-10 fleet:
N80NA
N81NA
N82NA
N83NA
N84NA Delivered in primer and was never in National c/s
Be kind to animals! Next trip: ORF-ORD-NRT-IAH-ORF
 
Magyarorszag
Topic Author
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 am

RE: AA DC-10-10 At LHR

Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 39):
I believe after they allowed two engine planes to cross the atlantic, the DC-10-10 could cross as well.

But Laker Airways started its trans-atlantic Skytrain with a DC-10-10 from LGW. I've retrieved a report I have since many years, published in Air Pictorial in May 1979. The title is: "By Laker to Los Angeles". The author says that the trip from LGW to JFK is normaly scheduled to take 7H45 for his flight with a DC-10-10.

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