Halibut
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Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:20 pm

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=19430

Boeing sees rise in '06 orders from U.S., European carriers
(Reuters) — European and U.S. airlines, quiet during a recent aircraft sales boom led by Asian and Middle Eastern carriers, could start ordering planes as soon as this year, Boeing Co.'s chief executive said on Tuesday.

James McNerney, speaking at an analyst conference, said he believed Boeing's $124 billion order backlog could grow further this year, downplaying talk that Boeing and European rival Airbus will see demand slump after a record 2005.

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1139348525.html

Boeing CEO Says Europe, US May Start Ordering

James McNerney, speaking at an analyst conference, said he believed Boeing's already substantial order backlog could grow further this year, downplaying talk that Boeing and European rival Airbus will see demand slump after a record 2005.

"There's a good chance that (the) backlog will grow again...," McNerney said, while acknowledging "sort of a sweet spot there" in the commercial plane market last year amid fast-growing international air traffic.

Halibut
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Halibut
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:36 pm

http://heraldnet.com/stories/06/02/08/100bus_corliss001.cfm

Published: Wednesday, February 8, 2006

Boeing CEO sets new course
Jim McNerney's game plan is to make the company more efficient and improve its corporate culture.

Bryan Corliss
Herald columnist


Boeing has had some big shifts in corporate culture in the past decade. It's in the midst of another one, under the direction of new CEO Jim McNerney, and last week we may have gotten a glimpse of where the new pilot is steering the plane.

Halibut
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kappel
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:39 pm

The question is of course who will order. Most US legacies need new aircraft, but can't afford them.
In Europe:
KLM may order the replacement for the MD-11, and of course the 737 classics. Other than that, perhaps the 744, but not likely.
BA stated they won't order for at least 2 years (IIRC Willie Walsh said that recently)
LH may order an a343 replacement and/or 737 classics replacement. But they also said the 737's are to stay a while longer. They may order the a300 replacement however, which most people agree the 787-3 is the best replacement. Perhaps more a388's and/or a346's to replace 744's, although unlikely. IMHO the a388 won't get any more orders untill it's in service. Perhaps 748? Possible, but maybe too close to a388 in seating? And the 744's are not that old.
IB just ordered a bunch of a32x's to replace their oldest aircraft, the MD'80's and 757's. The a346's have replaced the 744's already (again, IIRC)
AZ is in no condition to order aircraft.

LCC's:
FR and EZY also just ordered a bunch of aircraft, same as AB.
US LCC's: you should know more about that than me.

IMHO, McNerney may just be a bit optimistic, although I REALLY hope he is right.
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:50 pm

Quoting Kappel (Reply 2):
The question is of course who will order. Most US legacies need new aircraft, but can't afford them.

I agree with you that most of the US legacy carriers can't efford them right now, however, I think AA, CO, and UA might have to bite the bullet and order some new planes, especially with their plans to expand international traffic, which is the only profitable part of their operations these days.

Right now, AA and CO already need more long range wide bodies (777) to expand into Asia markets, especially to China and India. The airlines in those countries just ordered a bucketload of newer 777/787s, so in order to compete, AA, CO, and UA MUST get newer, more efficient planes to keep up.

I'm interested to see if NW folds, which of the US carriers will grab their routes in Asia, especially their HUB in NRT.
 
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 3):
I'm interested to see if NW folds, which of the US carriers will grab their routes in Asia, especially their HUB in NRT.

AA will go after that with everything they have.

All of the major US Air Lines need new airplanes, mostly WBs. DL really needs additional B-777-200ERs. Perhaps Boeing will make a deal to bail them out of BK for a major order, like Airbus did for US. Boeing may want DL to order the B-777-200LR for their proposed ATL to China routes.

AA really needs to replace those A-300-605Rs, I see a B-787-300 order there. When the leases are up on the TW MD-82s, B-767, and B-757s those airplanes will also get replaced. AA will order some B-777-300ERs, too.

TZ needs some B-767-300ERs, but are looking for used aircraft. But perhaps WN will help them buy some B-787-900s, instead.

UA needs to begin replacing their B-747-400s. Airbus and Boeing will aggressively go for that one with the B-747-800 and the A-380-800.

US is firmly in the Airbus show room, so Boeing won't waste time with them.

CO is in the best health of all, they could order more airplanes, too.

I can see some NB orders for Boeing, too.

It would not surprize me to see WN become a launch customer for the Y-1 (Y-1-200?), perhaps with a firm order for 60-70 airplanes to begin replacing their B-737-300s. AA will also become a launch customer as some of their MD-80 series are getting very old, as are their first order of B-757-200s. AA will order the longer versions of the Y-1 (Y-1-300/400?), maybe as many as 50 airplanes. I look for both of these orders in very late 2006 or anytime in 2007.

DL, and CO may also begin ordering the Y-1, although I really see DL ordering the B-737NG to begin replacing their oldest B-757-200s and MD-88s.

Both UPS and FedEx will also take a good look at the B-777-200LRF. UPS may order some B-747-800Fs to go with their recent order of the B-747-400Fs. I would guess that FedEx will want to look at the proposed Airbus A-330-200F, also.
 
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:59 am

The leases are already up for the TWA 767s. They were replaced with brand new 767-323ERs almost two years ago.
AA has hinted that there will be no further 777 orders. Instead, I would predict AA to go for the 787 en masse.
As badly as CO needs airplanes (how are they gonna do the Moscow service if they don't have a plane? How are they gonna do all this 'transatlantic' expansion with mere 752s?) I don't know why they haven't ordered more. Maybe it's a money issue. Maybe it's a timing issue. I do know that they've got 2 777s coming in soon for the China route. Is that THIS March or next? I think it's 2006 that they start that route... sure hope so.

Have you been reading Boeing and Airbus's statements? See the thread on "New engine critical to Y1." There will be no 737 or A320 replacement for about eight years, if you believe the manufacturers, because all three engine makers have said "not yet".

In regards to the original thread, I hope that Boeing goes gangbusters this year, but I don't expect them to beat last year. 2005 was an awesome year for both manufacturers- Airbus in the narrowbody category, and Boeing in widebody and to a lesser degree narrowbody.
Good luck topping that.
 
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:00 am

What are the chanses of US carriers going for the 777-200LR ???

One would think that CO would need the LR , due to there long haul- direct flight stradegy .

Halibut
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kappel
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 3):
I agree with you that most of the US legacy carriers can't efford them right now, however, I think AA, CO, and UA might have to bite the bullet and order some new planes, especially with their plans to expand international traffic, which is the only profitable part of their operations these days.

Didn't UA say there are no orders fothcoming in the near future? That would rule out 2006. IMHO CO is in the best position of the legacies, but even they are losing money. They are going long-haul with the 757, but aren't alienating passengers who'd rather fly on widebodies? They indeed need some more 777's and I think the 787 can't come soon enough for them. Perhaps they will increase their order this year.

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 3):
I'm interested to see if NW folds, which of the US carriers will grab their routes in Asia, especially their HUB in NRT.

What about DL? what will happen to their routes? DL really needs new aircraft also to increase fuel effiency, which is getting more important than cheap lease rates at the way the oil price is going. NW has some a330's on order, and IIRC some a32x's, but does DL have any aircraft on order, which have not been deferred?
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
I don't know why they haven't ordered more.

Although it's a small change, CO did add two more 787-8's to their order recently.
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:06 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 2):
BA stated they won't order for at least 2 years (IIRC Willie Walsh said that recently)

Willie was'nt very clear on when BA will order planes. He said that they wont be 'taking' any new ones (I take this as no deliverys, but not nessessarily no orders) until the T5 matter out of the way.

EI will almost certainly make a wide body order this year, either A322+A350 or 772ER+787.

I expect an order from Air Madrid also and some passenger 748 sales. I think there will be little or possibly no A380 orders until it enters service. Some carriers are waiting to see how it turns out in service.
 
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
It would not surprize me to see WN become a launch customer for the Y-1 (Y-1-200?), perhaps with a firm order for 60-70 airplanes to begin replacing their B-737-300s. AA will also become a launch customer as some of their MD-80 series are getting very old, as are their first order of B-757-200s. AA will order the longer versions of the Y-1 (Y-1-300/400?), maybe as many as 50 airplanes. I look for both of these orders in very late 2006 or anytime in 2007.

I don't think we'll see any orders for Y-1 (797??) before 2008. There are no engines available for this aircraft and it looks like there won't be any before 2010. Flight International has an interesting article about it in the recent issue.
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 2):
The question is of course who will order. Most US legacies need new aircraft, but can't afford them.

If the domestics do select the 787, they may place very small orders (5-10 frames ala CO/NW) or place larger orders, but just make minimum down payments to secure "production slots" which they could then move around as their finances/needs dictate.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 2):
LH...may order the a300 replacement however, which most people agree the 787-3 is the best replacement.

But would LH want to operate a one-off non-Airbus plane? Their fleet seems to be migrating (slowly) towards all Airbus.

Quoting Halibut (Reply 6):
What are the chanses of US carriers going for the 777-200LR?

UA was very interested, as was DL, when it was the 777-200X. DL couldn't come up with the cash, and UA decided to stick with the 744. CO also showed some interest until the trans-polar routings opened up EWR-HKG to the 777-200ER.
 
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
Have you been reading Boeing and Airbus's statements? See the thread on "New engine critical to Y1." There will be no 737 or A320 replacement for about eight years, if you believe the manufacturers, because all three engine makers have said "not yet"

Do you really believe there is not going to be a replacement in this category for about eight years? no way... If the 737 continues to lose ground against the A320, Boeing has to answer that with a new plane.
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:18 am

EI321

Airbus said at their conference which took plave on Jan17th , they will get two new airlines in the A380 order book this year.
However you are right , stating that some airlines (BA , CX , JL , NH) are waiting for the introduction of this plane in commercial service , to see how it performs , before ordering it or not.

I am a little bit sceptical about new orders from European and American airlines this year.But probably if Boeing said that , they (and Airbus too...) know something we do not know.Secretly discussions with airlines.........
I really do not see any huge orders coming from flag European carriers this year, except Aer Lingus, and Aeroflot, and even they will be NO huge....
Certainly the American airlines are a big potential planes buyers , but it seems to me , it's too early this year.
United is a very high potential A380 customer , but probably not this year.
 
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:50 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
But would LH want to operate a one-off non-Airbus plane? Their fleet seems to be migrating (slowly) towards all Airbus.

At first glance, it does appear that they are moving to an all Airbus fleet, but the CEO of LH was quoted as saying that they (LH) do not intend to become an all-Airbus carrier. In that light, I can see LH ordering the 787-3 and the 747-8, in both pax and cargo flavors.

Quoting FCKC (Reply 13):
United is a very high potential A380 customer , but probably not this year.

Sorry my friend FCKC, but I disagree with you on this one. UA will order the 747-8 for 744 replacement, and probably not very many of those. I do see them placing a large 787 order, again all models.

[Edited 2006-02-08 19:52:27]
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kappel
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 9):
I expect an order from Air Madrid also and some passenger 748 sales. I think there will be little or possibly no A380 orders until it enters service. Some carriers are waiting to see how it turns out in service.

There will most certainly be some orders from european and US airlines, but I don't expect the orders to be as huge as the asian and Qantas orders.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
But would LH want to operate a one-off non-Airbus plane? Their fleet seems to be migrating (slowly) towards all Airbus.

They still have the 737 classics and 744. IIRC it was their CEO who has repeatedly stated that they do not want to become depended on one OEM. So while the 737's will most likely be replaced by a320's eventually, it's posible that the 744's and a300's replacement may be Boeings (787/748)

Quoting SoAmSky (Reply 12):
Boeing has to answer that with a new plane.

As repeatedly mentioned in the FI article, it's not up to Boeing, or Airbus for that matter. No engine=no boeing Y1/airbus NSR

Quoting FCKC (Reply 13):
am a little bit sceptical about new orders from European and American airlines this year

Same here. Undoubtedly there will be some small orders here and there, perhaps a surprise or two, but in general not the volume of the asian orders.
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 3):
I'm interested to see if NW folds, which of the US carriers will grab their routes in Asia, especially their HUB in NRT.

NW ordered 787s not that long ago. I'm probably behind the power curve but what makes you think they're going to fold?
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da man
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:13 am

I can foresee WN ordering some of the new 737-700ERs, possibly for service to Hawaii, and Bermuda. (Hey, I can hope, right?)

I also see BA ordering the 747-8 and blatantly rejecting the A380 in its entirety.
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:37 am

Quoting Da man (Reply 17):
I can foresee WN ordering some of the new 737-700ERs, possibly for service to Hawaii, and Bermuda. (Hey, I can hope, right?)

Probably is a long shot but they have the life vests now  Big grin
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:03 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 2):
The question is of course who will order. Most US legacies need new aircraft, but can't afford them.

As US has proved with its A350 order, you don't necessarily need to have cash on hand to buy/lease new planes. If the economics and business needs justify it, I think UA, AA, and CO (the carriers not currently in bankruptcy) may place more orders this year. It's not as if they need to have the cash in hand right now.

Given the production slots of some of these planes (like the 787) are filling up, I wouldn't be surprised to see them bite the bullet.
 
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:33 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 14):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
But would LH want to operate a one-off non-Airbus plane? Their fleet seems to be migrating (slowly) towards all Airbus.

At first glance, it does appear that they are moving to an all Airbus fleet, but the CEO of LH was quoted as saying that they (LH) do not intend to become an all-Airbus carrier. In that light, I can see LH ordering the 787-3 and the 747-8, in both pax and cargo flavors.


Yes the CEO has said that. He also said that they are no charity when they ordered more A340-600 instead of a by Boeing much anticipated 777 order. If the aircraft fits the bill, and it appears to be an Airbus product again, LH will order Airbus. And if that means shifting even more towards a single supplier, so will it be. Just ordering aircraft from the other manufacturer for the sake of not ordering from the same manufacturer again is no reason to do so.
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:40 pm

I don't think that we can expect any orders from NW and DL in the near future due to Ch. 11.
My guess is that UA and CO will be the airlines to order new A/C.
UA need international capacity for it's international growth. A a result I expect a 744 replacement (388 vs. 748) and more 772ERs. As for a big order of 787s I think it is too soon having just exited Ch. 11 eventhough a 763 replacement is also necessary! But there will not be any orders prior to the 1. Quarter results.
Just like UA CO also need international capacity but I only expect 772s to be ordered and not something the size of a 748!
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Tifoso
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:51 pm

Randy dropped a hint in his latest blog entry: http://www.boeing.com/randy/

Quoting Randy Baseler:

If it's a new year, then it must be time to city-hop through Europe once again, chatting with customers, industry investors, supplier partners, and media.

I just spent an enjoyable couple of weeks traveling to Ireland (Dublin and Shannon) and London, as well as stops in Munich and Rome.

Of course, I don't know which stop corresponded to a customer, and which to a supplier.  Smile
 
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 20):
Yes the CEO has said that. He also said that they are no charity when they ordered more A340-600 instead of a by Boeing much anticipated 777 order. If the aircraft fits the bill, and it appears to be an Airbus product again, LH will order Airbus. And if that means shifting even more towards a single supplier, so will it be. Just ordering aircraft from the other manufacturer for the sake of not ordering from the same manufacturer again is no reason to do so.

The weakness in your argument is that Airbus simply doesn't have an answer for the 787-3 which most on this forum would agree is the perfect A300 replacement product. And since they fly so many 744s, logically the 747-8 would be an almost perfect fit, between the A340 and A380s. You also failed to mention that their Cargo operations are all-Boeing (MD-11) and they are still considering both the 777-LRF and 747-8 Freighters, again, since Airbus offers no direct competitor to either of these aircraft. LH Cargo is a heavy lift operation, not a bulk cargo carrier, so the A380F offering is at a disadvantage for them.
Therefore I'll use your own argument to support mine... LH will purchase whatever aircraft from whatever manufactuer suits it's needs, and at this point, I would say that Boeing is in a very strong position.
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BlueSky1976
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:00 am

Quoting Tifoso (Reply 22):
Quoting Randy Baseler:

If it's a new year, then it must be time to city-hop through Europe once again, chatting with customers, industry investors, supplier partners, and media.

I just spent an enjoyable couple of weeks traveling to Ireland (Dublin and Shannon) and London, as well as stops in Munich and Rome.

Of course, I don't know which stop corresponded to a customer, and which to a supplier.

Dublin & Shannon - well, it's too close to call on 787 vs A350 here, this could go either way.
London - 777-300ER & 747-8i order by BA
Munich - 787-3 & 747-8i for LH, discussions about Y1
Rome - supplier visit. AZ is in too much of a $hithole to order anything...

those are my guesses  Smile
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 24):
Dublin & Shannon - well, it's too close to call on 787 vs A350 here, this could go either way.
London - 777-300ER & 747-8i order by BA
Munich - 787-3 & 747-8i for LH, discussions about Y1
Rome - supplier visit. AZ is in too much of a $hithole to order anything...

Great calls... Couldn't agree more.
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manni
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 23):
Quoting Manni (Reply 20):
Yes the CEO has said that. He also said that they are no charity when they ordered more A340-600 instead of a by Boeing much anticipated 777 order. If the aircraft fits the bill, and it appears to be an Airbus product again, LH will order Airbus. And if that means shifting even more towards a single supplier, so will it be. Just ordering aircraft from the other manufacturer for the sake of not ordering from the same manufacturer again is no reason to do so.

The weakness in your argument is that Airbus simply doesn't have an answer for the 787-3 which most on this forum would agree is the perfect A300 replacement product. And since they fly so many 744s, logically the 747-8 would be an almost perfect fit, between the A340 and A380s. You also failed to mention that their Cargo operations are all-Boeing (MD-11) and they are still considering both the 777-LRF and 747-8 Freighters, again, since Airbus offers no direct competitor to either of these aircraft. LH Cargo is a heavy lift operation, not a bulk cargo carrier, so the A380F offering is at a disadvantage for them.
Therefore I'll use your own argument to support mine... LH will purchase whatever aircraft from whatever manufactuer suits it's needs, and at this point, I would say that Boeing is in a very strong position.

Now you come up with a whole set of new arguments. however I replied to this response of yours...

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 14):
but the CEO of LH was quoted as saying that they (LH) do not intend to become an all-Airbus carrier.

and you brought up this as a reason to order Boeing..., not those in your latest reply. posted after my reply.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 14):
. In that light, I can see LH ordering the 787-3 and the 747-8, in both pax and cargo flavors.

Again, LH is not going to order Boeing just because they would not want to depend on one manufacturer. My first reply remains valid. The new arguments you brought up are much more valid, but one could argue that LH could order A321 and increase frequencies rather than the odd 787-300. The 748 makes no more sense than the A380. Despite the capacity gap. Since the A380 is already on order, she's got to have the edge. LH cargo would be the best bet for a possible Boeing order, that's untill an A330F is launched...  stirthepot 
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 26):
Now you come up with a whole set of new arguments. however I replied to this response of yours...

New arguments? I wish that I had come up them. No, they've been dicussed ad nausem on this and many other threads. Perhaps you missed them.
 sarcastic 

Quoting Manni (Reply 26):
Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 14):
but the CEO of LH was quoted as saying that they (LH) do not intend to become an all-Airbus carrier.

and you brought up this as a reason to order Boeing..., not those in your latest reply. posted after my reply.

 yes  I did...

I thought it was clear that that, yes, that's ONE of MANY reasons to negoitiate with BOTH manufacturers.
Look Manni, you could get your wish and in 20 years or so, LH will be flying as an all-Airbus fleet. And other hand, maybe, as I'm suspecting, they'll be a mixed fleet.
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:42 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 27):
I thought it was clear that that, yes, that's ONE of MANY reasons to negoitiate with BOTH manufacturers.

You were not clear at all. You did not state that it was one of many reasons:

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 14):
At first glance, it does appear that they are moving to an all Airbus fleet, but the CEO of LH was quoted as saying that they (LH) do not intend to become an all-Airbus carrier. In that light, I can see LH ordering the 787-3 and the 747-8, in both pax and cargo flavors.

No reason to bash Manni.
We all agree on one thing:

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 23):
Therefore I'll use your own argument to support mine... LH will purchase whatever aircraft from whatever manufactuer suits it's needs

and price.
 
atnight
Posts: 537
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:56 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 24):
Dublin & Shannon - well, it's too close to call on 787 vs A350 here, this could go either way.
London - 777-300ER & 747-8i order by BA
Munich - 787-3 & 747-8i for LH, discussions about Y1
Rome - supplier visit. AZ is in too much of a $hithole to order anything...

those are my guesses



Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 25):
Great calls... Couldn't agree more.

Guys, don't take this the wrong way, but to me it's funny how you guys, US folks, are sooo enthusiastic and optimistic about Boeing's products, that you make your "bids" on EUROPE's main airlines to buy Boeing airplanes and ditch their own-built Airbuses, making your "guesses" as in like Airbus has NO chance to win from BA or LH... I mean, airlines can buy whatever they want, and of course they can buy Boeing (great great product), but to put Europes' top airlines to go with Boeing aircraft this early on the year, without much data or knowledge, it sure seems a little "too" optimistic, dare to say sounds conceited?.... You seem to be eager to see someone launching the B748i, which you believe BA and LH will get it and making it finally a reality, nevertheless, to your disappointment, neither will buy it unless the A380 fails (this is so clear with BA, as they said they will NOT fly both, yet they are looking at the A380 (waiting to see what delivers) vs the B748i (if the A380 fails)).... Also, it seems you ignore that LH has a large widebody Airbus fleet, and will operate every type of Airbus aircraft (from the A300 to the A380)... Not only that, both LH and BA, have each countries' gov's hand on Airbus, so is really not certain which will they choose.... (to say they are long time Boeing customers (or Airbus) doesn't guarantee anything this days) Because of that, your guesses jump out to me as too bias and without real support for your views.... to make statments like that, don't you think that you, US a.netters, should focus on making your bids on a safer soil, let's say AA, DL & CO, in other words, you own, where there is a lot more possible facts to support that view???
To end my comment, let me ask you this question, I know the US is the world's only superpower, and there really isn't any other country with better military jets, better technology that the US, but does that make you feel that the US have to also control the world's commercial aircraft market and supply to all major airlines while the small ones rely on Russian or European versions? If so, remember this quote, "pride commeth before fall"... So my advice for now is, make a more educated guess next time!
B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
 
Halibut
Topic Author
Posts: 943
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:43 am

RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:43 am

Atnight,
I think you may be taking this US a-netter stuff just a little too far & nothing was mentioned regarding super power status . However , please be awear I did truely appreciate your imput regarding the thread topic .

Unfortunatly ,
I know very little regarding LH & BA aircraft fleets . However , the average A-netter must be awear of Airbus's current problem : Airbus has a rather large gap in there aircraft line up . They have very little to offer , at this time , in the widebody segment . Which in turn may make it much more likely for airlines to go Boeing , especially if these airlines are going to require aircraft from a320/737 up to the Jumbos . Boeing has a complete line of aircraft , Airbus does not ! That being the case , the chases are good for Boeing ! Airbus is vulnerable now !

If these airlines need widebodys the size of the 777/345 , my money is on Boeing !

Even Leahy has actknowledged Airbus's current diplemma.
Leahy Blasts Airbus' Strategic Mistakes (by BoomBoom Feb 8 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Quote:
The German magazine Der Spiegel, in a report published this week, quotes from a fiery internal Airbus memo written by Leahy in which he blasts strategic mistakes made by Airbus in its showdown with Boeing.

"In the view of the investors, Boeing has taken over the leadership in all airplane categories," according to an English translation of the Leahy memo, which the magazine said is dated Nov. 10, 2005.

Airbus could fall even further behind Boeing, Leahy warned, and his memo suggested an aggressive Airbus PR campaign "to win back lost territory," Der Spiegel said.

The magazine said Airbus unofficially suggested that the memo was deliberately exaggerated to galvanize Leahy's colleagues.

Although Airbus is delivering more planes than Boeing, and has won the order battle each year since 2001, many industry analysts believe Boeing ended 2005 in a much better position than its rival, owing in large measure to the sales success of its 787 Dreamliner and the 777, which is crushing the Airbus A340 in market share.

Leahy's memo was sent to Airbus CEO Gustav Humbert and four other high-level managers in the company, the magazine said.

The A340 family is the airplane model that is "worrying us the most," Leahy wrote in his memo, according to the magazine.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/258683_air08.html

Halibut
6 million Jews were slaughtered-Do you see Jews flying planes into buildings in Germany to kill 1000s of innocent, NO !
 
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1609
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:19 pm

Quoting Atnight (Reply 29):
Guys, don't take this the wrong way, but to me it's funny how you guys, US folks, are sooo enthusiastic and optimistic about Boeing's products, that you make your "bids" on EUROPE's main airlines to buy Boeing airplanes and ditch their own-built Airbuses, making your "guesses" as in like Airbus has NO chance to win from BA or LH...

I just fell off the chair... In the other thread PlaneDane (I believe) called me "Airbus Cheerleader" a few hours ago Big grin Big grin Big grin Big grin I'm laughing my @$$ off right now... this board surely can make my day sometimes...

But seriously... I don't support either manufacturer. It's been publicly told by LH management that 747-8i is an attractive plane to them, as they need "something" to fit between A340-600 and A380-800, and 747-8i is the only option - just as 787-3 is the only option as A300 direct replacement. Hate to say it, but Airbus dug their own hole there...
As far as BA ordering Airbuses... honestly... and objectively... besides getting a dozen A380s to compete with VS and SQ on Kangaroo Route, how big of a chance do You think A340-600 has against 777-300ER, especially since BA already has a $hitload of 777-200ERs which - even though they had their big teething problems and caused BA to switch engine supplier for them - is doing the good job for them? Especially with the rumoured 20+ 77W order looming around?
On the other hand, I think EI has a greater chance of buying A350s... though I was wrong before... I thought that NW will launch A350 and look what happened... Some cases, you can't just tell... but it's not the case with BA and LH...

Signed: BlueSky1976 a.k.a. Conrad the Airbus Cheerleader Big grin Big grin Big grin



...what the hell happened to my pom-poms?????? Big grin Big grin Big grin Big grin
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
Cahiwa
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting (Reply 30):
better technology that the US, but does that make you feel that the US have to also control the world's commercial aircraft market and supply to all major airlines while the small ones rely on Russian or European versions? If so, remember this quote, "pride commeth before fall"... So my advice for now is, make a more educated guess next time!

Wow! I do not post often, but for this gringo, this is scary stuff. I live in WA State, Spokane, to be exact. Residents everywhere in the Evergreen State benefit big time from Boeing's success and feel the pain when Boeing struggles. I have never met a single knowledgeable American, anywhere, that wishes an American company to "control" any market, for any product, period. It is an understatement to say that in the US (as in many countries)we understand the value of healthy competition in the marketplace for all products and services. I am thrilled that Airbus is keeping Boeing on it's toes. I think you will find this to be the case with the vast majority of my fellow gringos, a.netters included.

Ciao for now.. K

[Edited 2006-02-10 04:57:07]
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:41 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 27):
I thought it was clear that that, yes, that's ONE of MANY reasons to negoitiate with BOTH manufacturers.
Look Manni, you could get your wish and in 20 years or so, LH will be flying as an all-Airbus fleet. And other hand, maybe, as I'm suspecting, they'll be a mixed fleet.

As AMSSFO pointed out, you were not clear at all. Also, I've never expressed the wish that LH should operate an all Airbus fleet. I'll avoid a similar low quality response towards you  Wink . Without Boeing the A350 would not have been on the drawingboard, without Airbus the 787 would have most likely not been on the drawingboard also. I WISH that both manufacturers continue to coexist for the next 20 years and longer. Competition results in innovation.
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vegasplanes
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:22 pm

RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:27 pm

Quoting Atnight (Reply 29):
Guys, don't take this the wrong way, but to me it's funny how you guys, US folks, are sooo enthusiastic and optimistic about Boeing's products

The quote that you are referring to is an a.netter who is a Boeing salesperson, hence he is trying to sell the products mentioned to the airlines that are based in the destinations visited.

Quoting Tifoso (Reply 22):
Randy dropped a hint in his latest blog entry: http://www.boeing.com/randy/

Quoting Randy Baseler:

If it's a new year, then it must be time to city-hop through Europe once again, chatting with customers, industry investors, supplier partners, and media.

I just spent an enjoyable couple of weeks traveling to Ireland (Dublin and Shannon) and London, as well as stops in Munich and Rome.

Of course, I don't know which stop corresponded to a customer, and which to a supplier. Smile

This was BlueSky1976 reply to the above info.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 24):
Dublin & Shannon - well, it's too close to call on 787 vs A350 here, this could go either way.
London - 777-300ER & 747-8i order by BA
Munich - 787-3 & 747-8i for LH, discussions about Y1
Rome - supplier visit. AZ is in too much of a $hithole to order anything...

those are my guesses Smile

I would say that the guy is trying to do his job and sell Boeing planes to European carriers, I do not think that putting the Russian & European Aerospace industry out of business is his goal.
 
User avatar
USAF336TFS
Posts: 1357
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RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:33 pm

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 28):
Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 27):
I thought it was clear that that, yes, that's ONE of MANY reasons to negoitiate with BOTH manufacturers.

You were not clear at all. You did not state that it was one of many reasons:

Thank you for your precision in the English language. The implications I made were there. I'm sorry if I have not yet mastered mental telepathy.
  

Quoting Manni (Reply 33):
As AMSSFO pointed out, you were not clear at all. Also, I've never expressed the wish that LH should operate an all Airbus fleet. I'll avoid a similar low quality response towards you

If my response sounded brash, that was not my intention, however my reponses have been accurate, whether or not you agree with them or not is another thing... The "quality" of my responses is subjective. My apologies if they were taken out of context. However, Mr. Manni, I was left with the assumption that you prefer Airbus, which is really okay... We all have preferences, whether or not we admit it.

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 28):
No reason to bash Manni.
We all agree on one thing:

Show me where I "bashed" Manni. An exchange of ideas and views is what we're all here for. Or so I thought. Bashing? If you want to read bashing, read the "You Americans & Boeing" diatribe above....

[Edited 2006-02-10 14:40:13]
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AMSSFO
Posts: 912
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:42 am

RE: Boeing CEO "US & Europe May Start Ordering?"

Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 35):
Show me where I "bashed" Manni.

:

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 27):
Look Manni, you could get your wish and in 20 years or so,


While:

Quoting Manni (Reply 33):
Also, I've never expressed the wish that LH should operate an all Airbus fleet

and I agree with him.
You likely did not mean to bash him, but to me it looked that way.

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