quickmover
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Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:18 am

They took a 3rd gate recently. They have the room to handle more flights if they have the aircraft. Anyone heard anything?
 
wnsocal
Posts: 126
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:24 am

WN gets another gate in DEN & SNA getting more flights..maybe? but i dont think so. one can dream..wn
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quickmover
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:28 am

I still wish they would look into DEN-MCI.
 
njintern
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:05 am

I agree with Quickmover. Because WN is the price leader in most of the large beyond-DEN markets (LAS, LAX, SEA, PDX) F9 and UA have become very greedy in the local market.

I just priced MCI-DEN RT on 3/15-3/22 at $266.60 and MCI-LAX RT (same dates) at $228.20. Do the math, it's a 49 cent yield in the local market.

If F9 wants to be considered a low-cost/low-fare airline, they need to act like one.
 
IADCRJ
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:24 am

I dont know if service has commenced yet, but I knew that WN has intentions of doing a DEN - SLC route shortly after their startup in DEN.
 
jmy007
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting Njintern (Reply 3):
If F9 wants to be considered a low-cost/low-fare airline, they need to act like one.

 sarcastic 
Come on, they have to make money somewhere. F9 and UA drop prices to match on head to head routes with WN. They'll pick up that money elsewhere.
If $266 is too much, drive the 8 hours down I-70.
Cookies are the Gateway pastry. They lead to Éclairs and Bear Claws.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:27 am

Currently, DEN is served by WN from OAK, SAN, LAS, PHX, SLC, MDW, & BWI, yes?

I would think one of the L.A. airports would be next (what a boon for ONT if they were the first!), along with maybe MCI or STL.

Quote:
I just priced MCI-DEN RT on 3/15-3/22 at $266.60 and MCI-LAX RT (same dates) at $228.20.



Quote:
If F9 wants to be considered a low-cost/low-fare airline, they need to act like one.

No carrier has the lowest fare every time. Many times I have travelled WN has been the lowest, many times the middle of the road, and a few times it has been the highest. It all depends on the demand for particular seats on a particular day. One example of fares doesn't tell the whole story - we need more data.
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FCYTravis
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:38 am

OAK and SAN are 1x Saturday-only flights, and SLC and BWI have yet to start up. They'll begin March 4.

If I had to guess, I'd bet on a service expansion to Oakland and LAX.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
njintern
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:40 am

My comment about acting like a low fare airline was specific to the fact that the MCI-DEN-LAX fare (1395 miles) was cheaper than the local fare (533 miles). This reminds me of DL selling MCO-CVG-DAY substantially cheaper than MCO-CVG. Not typical LCC behavior, especially considering 160% differnce in stage.

Quickmover, do you agree?

Can someone find an example today of a successful low-cost airline gouging the local to make up for lower fares in the beyond? If so, I'll gladly retract my statement.
 
quickmover
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:43 am

Quoting Njintern (Reply 8):
Quickmover, do you agree?

Agree 100%.
I'm surprised you found DEN-MCI for $266. I've spent as much as $350 before. UA and F9 have certainly learned to coexist. Too well.

DEN-LAS and PHX were not bargains before WN showed up. Granted you can find mid week discounts, but I've seen DEN-LAS as high as $400 and DEN-PHX as high as $350.
 
iowaman
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:50 am

My list of next possible cities from DEN (in no particular order):

LAX
OAK
MCI
STL
HOU
BNA (maybe)
SAN (maybe)
 
Tornado82
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:02 am

PHL. They'll smell the blood of UA, US, and F9 all in one big swoop.
 
hockey55dude
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:09 am

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 10):
My list of next possible cities from DEN (in no particular order):

LAX
OAK
MCI
STL
HOU
BNA (maybe)
SAN (maybe)

They already started SAN and OAK
 
jacobin777
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:09 am

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 10):
LAX
OAK
MCI
STL
HOU
BNA (maybe)
SAN (maybe)

I would add SJC also as SJC is a big WN hub (they are either 1st or 2nd in terms of flights at SJC after AA/AA-eagle)...

it would be interesting to see how it does as F9 serves this route already...


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mariner
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:22 am

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 9):
DEN-LAS and PHX were not bargains before WN showed up. Granted you can find mid week discounts, but I've seen DEN-LAS as high as $400 and DEN-PHX as high as $350.

You might be just a little bit fair here, Quickmover. Just a tad.

Yes, there were - still are - fares at those prices, and probably some higher. But they were not the lowest or the average.

Faremeasure is not the most reliable resource in the world, but it is pretty good, based on the DOT figures, and pre-dates Southwest's arrival in DEN.

The average round trip fare DEN/LAS was $238. Since we know there were higher fares and that's an average, there must have been lower fares, too.

The average round trip fare DEN/PHX was $255.

And there were times when they were much, much lower. When Ted started, I remember the $59 round trips DEN/LAS, DEN/PHX and DEN/RNO.

Even DEN/ONT.

Of course, no one was making money on those fares.

cheers

mariner
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usairways85
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:50 am

WN doesn't really need that 3rd gate to expand. I mean in PHL at one point WN was just about averaging 9-10 flts per gate each day. Now PHL is a pretty congested airport and if they can handle that in PHL i would assume they can get pretty close to that in DEN.

So what do they have 2 gates now and 12 flts a day with a few more coming in a month or two, they should really be able to get close to 17-20 flts with only 2 gates. That still leaves some room for expansion, while it would have to be a city with only 1 or 2 a day as opposed to 4 or 5 they still could handle some expansion. With 3 gates they should easily be able to get up to 25-28 flts a day.
 
quickmover
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:09 pm

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 15):
WN doesn't really need that 3rd gate to expand. I mean in PHL at one point WN was just about averaging 9-10 flts per gate each day. Now PHL is a pretty congested airport and if they can handle that in PHL i would assume they can get pretty close to that in DEN.

So what do they have 2 gates now and 12 flts a day with a few more coming in a month or two, they should really be able to get close to 17-20 flts with only 2 gates. That still leaves some room for expansion, while it would have to be a city with only 1 or 2 a day as opposed to 4 or 5 they still could handle some expansion. With 3 gates they should easily be able to get up to 25-28 flts a day.

They now have the two former USAir gates and the former Airtran gate. USAir moved to the west end of the concourse using the former America west gates. Airtran moved to the east end of the concourse to what was once one of the two TWA gates (on the south side).
What is interesting here is that the other TWA gate (east end north side) is also the former ATA gate--now unused as ATA pulled out of DEN. If WN wanted it, they could probably get it and give them 4 gates in very close proximity.
 
mrstl
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:42 pm

STL has nonstop service to DEN on F9, AA, and UA average roundtrip fare is $318.00 according to faremeasure.com. WN could seriously bring down the cost of this route if they decide to fly it. It is 770 miles or 20.6 cents per mile avg per RT. I just paid $450 three months ago on AA for my trip to Denver on a non holiday two weeks notice fare.
 
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mariner
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:51 pm

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 17):
I just paid $450 three months ago on AA for my trip to Denver on a non holiday two weeks notice fare.

Then you wuz robbed.

I'm getting Frontier STL/DEN eight days out, two weeks out and three weeks out for $218.60 round trip.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
mrstl
Posts: 353
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:01 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
Then you wuz robbed.

No kidding!! I checked everyone and they were all about the same fare although I think I paid a little more to stay on AA. Got to keep my FF status up, although more and more I am asking myself if it is really worth it.
 
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mariner
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:12 pm

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 19):
No kidding!!

No kidding. $218.60 round trip.

On the three dates I checked, seats were available at that price on all flights.

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 19):
I think I paid a little more to stay on AA. Got to keep my FF status up

You want perks as a well as a cheap fare?  Smile

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
777fan
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:26 pm

I vote for DEN-Tehran!

Seriously, I'm guessing it'll target one of Frontier or Ted/UA's routes: don't know if these already exist but BWI, PHX, SEA, PDX, LAS and/or SAN come to mind.
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
joeljack
Posts: 491
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:13 pm

My list would be in order:

Market O/D Passengers
LAX 2,231 Speaks for itself
MCI 788 O/D traffic will rise significantly because of short distance
MCO 860 WN really like Orlando
OMA 402 O/D traffic will rise significantly because of short distance
STL 674 Good Connections/ descent traffic
ABQ 379 O/D traffic will rise significantly because of short distance
FLL 684 ?????
TPA 558 Just a hunch
BNA 336 Kinda a stretch...Good Connections though
 
wedgetail737
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:23 pm

I would bet on expanding DEN-OAK going to daily before SJC. OAK is far larger WN station than SJC, especially with the introduction of ATA service to Hawaii.
 
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mariner
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:30 pm

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 9):
I'm surprised you found DEN-MCI for $266. I've spent as much as $350 before. UA and F9 have certainly learned to coexist. Too well.

Um - I just checked MCI-DEN RT on 3/15-3/22 and I got a total (including all taxes, etc) of $163.

That means a base fare to the airline of $138 round trip. This is gouging?

That fare was available on the two previous days as well. I didn't bother checking anymore than that.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
nateDAL
Posts: 404
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:42 pm

How about DAL?

Ok...in all seriousness, LAX and HOU are their biggest destinations not yet served from DEN.
Set Love Free
 
iowaman
Posts: 3878
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:49 pm

Quoting Hockey55dude (Reply 12):
They already started SAN and OAK

Not daily.

Quoting Joeljack (Reply 22):
MCO 860 WN really like Orlando

Yes, however there largest station, LAS, doesn't even have n/s to MCO on WN.

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 23):
I would bet on expanding DEN-OAK going to daily before SJC. OAK is far larger WN station than SJC, especially with the introduction of ATA service to Hawaii.

 checkmark 

Quoting Mariner (Reply 14):
And there were times when they were much, much lower. When Ted started, I remember the $59 round trips DEN/LAS, DEN/PHX and DEN/RNO.

I'm surprised F9 hasn't thrived more in RNO, I believe they are still at one daily F9 DEN-RNO.

Quoting Joeljack (Reply 22):
OMA 402 O/D traffic will rise significantly because of short distance

DEN-OMA on WN.. wow that would be a dream.  Silly

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
I would add SJC also as SJC is a big WN hub (they are either 1st or 2nd in terms of flights at SJC after AA/AA-eagle)...

WN has no "hubs" , and SJC isn't as big as OAK.
 
njintern
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2001 6:14 am

RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
Um - I just checked MCI-DEN RT on 3/15-3/22 and I got a total (including all taxes, etc) of $163.

That means a base fare to the airline of $138 round trip. This is gouging?

Nope, that's not gouging, that's pricing rationally. A LCC 21 day advance purchase fare for this LOCAL market should be somewhere $79 and $99.

Thanks to whomever at F9 (or maybe Mariner?!) forwarded this thread to the pricing/rm folks to get things back in order.

Quickmover, I'm adding you to my respected user list.

Have a great day everyone.
 
alphascan
Posts: 795
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:04 am

RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting Njintern (Reply 3):
Do the math, it's a 49 cent yield in the local market.

There is no one in the Pricing Dept. of any carrier figuring yields per mile on flights in order to set their fares. Think of airline pricing as if seats were a commodity.

It has NOTHING to do with the actual cost of transporting a person from point a to point b.

The goal is to maximize revenue by having a balance between seats available, number of passengers and amount of fares paid. Finding the right balance is the key to success. The hard part is that it changes with every flight, every day. That is why it is nearly impossible for anyone to pull up fares for one day or one RT and understand what is going on.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
ORDagent
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:24 am

RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:06 am

Quoting Njintern (Reply 3):

If F9 wants to be considered a low-cost/low-fare airline, they need to act like one

F9 is extremely cost competative. What probably happened was that the lower fare bucket on F9 was already sold out as they have a very loyal pax base in DEN. The 'F9 effect" is just as strong as the "WN effect".
 
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mariner
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting Njintern (Reply 27):
Thanks to whomever at F9 (or maybe Mariner?!) forwarded this thread to the pricing/rm folks to get things back in order.

"...to get thinks back in order..."

So then you must think that things were "out of order" - that the price you found was an aberration.

But you ready to make extravabgant claims about Frontier as a price gouger on that aberration.

I sent nothing to Frontier - and do you really believe they would listen to me - or anyone - who sent them a thread on a.net?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
SJCRRPAX
Posts: 961
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:16 am

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 26):
WN has no "hubs" , and SJC isn't as big as OAK.

I think he meant WN's operation is large relative to other carriers at SJC. I think about every other departure from SJC is WN, at least everytime I drive by the airport. OAK's cargo operation is much larger than SJC, but in the bay area SJC has about 25% of the PAX's, OAK 25%, and SFO 50%. It has been OAK's dream for years to put SFO out of business, just like they did to SF's cargo shipping operation, but tourist want to have none of that. SJC was about to pass OAK in PAX's in 2001, but dot com bust, etc, so now that has been put off a few years but for sure SJC will eventually have more PAX's than OAK.
 
ScottB
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting Quickmover (Thread starter):
They took a 3rd gate recently. They have the room to handle more flights if they have the aircraft.


Didn't you know that no one wants to fly Southwest to or from Denver because they have an inferior product and charge higher prices? Southwest taking that third gate and adding service to SLC and BWI next month is just a prelude to United and Frontier running them out of the market.


In all seriousness, I'd wager that the most likely candidates would be some of the larger markets out of DEN which are also large stations for WN, so ABQ, LAX, MCI, HOU, MCO, or daily to OAK or SAN. It would not surprise me to see average fares drop by about 1/3 in most non-stop markets which Southwest chooses to enter from DEN.
 
FCYTravis
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:08 am

How do you know that "for sure?"

SJC is slightly smaller than OAK, passenger-wise. But WN's operation at OAK is *huge* and growing, with 133 daily departures. SJC's isn't anywhere near that.

I can't even figure out how you think OAK's dream is to put SFO out of business, as if anyone in OAK's management ever thought that would be possible. I think they're perfectly happy being the main Northern California base for the largest and most successful LCC in America, with spoke service from everyone else.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:24 am

You probably won't believe me, but the next batch of cities to get nonstop WN service from Denver

ABQ (3)
MCI (3)
OMA (3)
STL (2)
TUS (2)

That's 13 flights a day and will put them up over 30 trips a day...maybe something close to 35?

The ABQ flights will go one stop to El Paso

The MCI and STL flights from Denver will continue on somewhere to the east - Pittsburgh or Nashville maybe - and provide decent one stop service w/ no change of plane to those stations.

The Denver to Tucson trips will terminate at San Diego and provide a nice one-stop service with no change of plane from DEN-SAN.
 
mrstl
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:58 am

RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 34):
You probably won't believe me, but the next batch of cities to get nonstop WN service from Denver

I believe you, where are the Omaha flights going?
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 3620
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:42 am

WN serves more destinations nonstop through OAK than SJC. Plus, ATA's decision to fly from OAK to OGG, HNL and ITO gives WN more connection opportunities.

If the San Jose economy boomed, then SJC pax count will exceed OAK. But, I don't think SJC will surpass OAK in passengers in the near future.
 
quickmover
Posts: 2134
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:28 am

RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 34):
You probably won't believe me, but the next batch of cities to get nonstop WN service from Denver

ABQ (3)
MCI (3)
OMA (3)
STL (2)
TUS (2)

That's 13 flights a day and will put them up over 30 trips a day...maybe something close to 35?

How soon?
I hope you are right, but can they squeeze 35 flights out of 3 gates?
 
vegasplanes
Posts: 656
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 34):
You probably won't believe me, but the next batch of cities to get nonstop WN service from Denver

ABQ (3)
MCI (3)
OMA (3)
STL (2)
TUS (2)

No LAX ? I would think WN would launch service to the LA Basin in some way shape or form from DEN N/S. Maybe they are waiting for two more gates so they can go DEN to LAX/ONT/BUR/SNA, maybe four or five flights each.  Wink
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting Joeljack (Reply 22):
LAX 2,231 Speaks for itself



Quoting Iowaman (Reply 10):
LAX

SWA does not have an inch of room to expand at LAX. The station flight activity has remained steady at just over 100 daily flights the last 5 years.

Only way they could add DEN-LAX would be reduce something else at LAX.
The LA market instead could be served better via ONT which has no facility issues, or even possibly BUR with some shuffling.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
CentPIT
Posts: 978
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:01 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 11):
PHL. They'll smell the blood of UA, US, and F9 all in one big swoop.

I think PHL as well. I think PIT has a chance though. PHL will probably be first.
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
iowaman
Posts: 3878
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 34):
You probably won't believe me, but the next batch of cities to get nonstop WN service from Denver

ABQ (3)
MCI (3)
OMA (3)
STL (2)
TUS (2)

Now is this an educated guess, or is this something you are very sure about?

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 40):
I think PHL as well. I think PIT has a chance though. PHL will probably be first.

PHL would seem much more likely than PIT IMO.

Quoting NateDAL (Reply 25):
How about DAL?

We all know that DEN-DAL is not possible yet do to the Wright Amendment.
 
SJCRRPAX
Posts: 961
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RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:52 am

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 33):
How do you know that "for sure?"

SJC is slightly smaller than OAK, passenger-wise. But WN's operation at OAK is *huge* and growing, with 133 daily departures. SJC's isn't anywhere near that.

I can't even figure out how you think OAK's dream is to put SFO out of business, as if anyone in OAK's management ever thought that would be possible. I think they're perfectly happy being the main Northern California base for the largest and most successful LCC in America, with spoke service from everyone else



I guess we never know the future for sure, but I go by the fact that San Jose is the 10th largest city in the U.S. and Oakland is not. SJC passenger total did for awhile surpass OAK's, and the prediction from the regional planning commission is that in 2010 OAK'S PAX total will be 17.4m , and SJC will be 18.2. Sure they could be wrong, but I think the trend is Silicon Valleys Economy will pick up and Oaklands won't.

If you know the history of Container shipping in the bay area, you will know that the Port of Oakland put the Port of San Francisco out of Business. The Port of Oakland runs the Oakland airport, and the dream was to run SFO out of business. Sure I agree it will never happen, and the port of Oakland probably hates the fact that little SJC carries about the same number of PAX's as OAK.

http://www.mtc.ca.gov/planning/air_plan/ES2.htm
 
joeljack
Posts: 491
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:38 pm

RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:11 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 34):
You probably won't believe me, but the next batch of cities to get nonstop WN service from Denver

ABQ (3)
MCI (3)
OMA (3)
STL (2)
TUS (2)

How do you know this information? How soon? 1 month, 3 months 1 year etc? Is this a guess or is this a "trust you, I'm 100% for sure kind of thing?"
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Next Southwest City From DEN

Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 19):
No kidding!! I checked everyone and they were all about the same fare although I think I paid a little more to stay on AA. Got to keep my FF status up, although more and more I am asking myself if it is really worth it.

I sometimes wonder that too..until I sit in an emergency exit row with tons of room for a very good fare... biggrin 
"Up the Irons!"