KarlB737
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Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:36 am

Courtesy: Reuters

Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/060209/airlines_delta_bankruptcy.html?.v=1
 
DL787932ER
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:43 am

I guess the union has to look strong, but both sides know there's no point in brinksmanship. They'll work out a deal by the deadline; both parties have too much to lose otherwise. There won't be any DL pilot strike.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
Poitin
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:49 am

Reminds me of when Eastern Airlines management and Pilots commited a mutual suicide with a strike a number of years ago.

A pity, because at one time Delta was the best.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
deltagator
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:49 am

Pretty much expected this one sooner or later. I'm not a huge fan of unions but these guys are getting mistreated by DL somewhat. I know they made a huge salary compared to other carriers but they made concessions once already and it seems management at the time screwed things up and squandered it. Now management has come back to the well asking for more because of their miscalculations.

Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place for the pilots. Keep your job and get screwed by the company or strike and most likely send the airline into liquidation and therefore no job.

One thing of note is that Grinstein and Whitehurst have opted out of the severence package they are trying to get set up for management retention. I'm sure they have a golden parachute somewhere but it does set a small example to their employees that they aren't completely evil.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
KarlB737
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:51 am

Courtesy: The Associated Press

Delta Union To Strike If Pact Rejected

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060209/delta.html?.v=4
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:57 am

Quote:
Delta Union to Strike if Pact Rejected

Title from:
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060209/delta.html?.v=4

Quote:

Delta and the negotiating committee of the union that represents its 6,000 pilots have less than three weeks to reach a comprehensive agreement on a second round of permanent pay and benefit cuts.

If the sides can't do that by March 1, a three-person arbitration panel will decide Delta's request that its contract with its pilots be thrown out so the company can impose $325 million in cuts unilaterally.

The pilots union has offered about $115 million in annual concessions.

That is quite a gap to bridge... with the cash DL is bleeding, this could get ugly. How long of a strike could Delta survive? A week? Two? A month?  scared  How long can Delta survive without concessions? Six months? A year?  gnasher  DeltaGator said it well with:

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place for the pilots. Keep your job and get screwed by the company or strike and most likely send the airline into liquidation and therefore no job.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
DL787932ER
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 5):
How long of a strike could Delta survive?

If the pilots strike, DL will liquidate immediately. Grinstein has said as much, and the pilots and their union surely know it. That's why, just like a few months ago with the temporary deal, a permanent resolution will be reached by the deadline.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
supa7E7
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place for the pilots. Keep your job and get screwed by the company or strike and most likely send the airline into liquidation and therefore no job.

Unemployed pilots are the ones who are stuck in a bad situation. DL pilots are among the luckiest workers on planet Earth, in terms of their salary. If you feel bad for DL pilots, you should be very sad about 95% of Americans, 99.9% of the rest of the world and probably sorry for yourself as well. These are fortunate people who have not behaved gracefully in years past, something that should not be forgotten in this time of predictable fallout.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
Poitin
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place for the pilots. Keep your job and get screwed by the company or strike and most likely send the airline into liquidation and therefore no job.

I would say it is "Keep your job for a little longer and get screwed by the company." Delta has serious problems and management does not seem to know how to fix them. Time to press the "reset" button, unfortunately.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 6):
That's why, just like a few months ago with the temporary deal, a permanent resolution will be reached by the deadline.

While I do tend to agree with you, this may be a tough agreement to hammer out. The vote for the temporary deal was far closer (only 58% said yes) than many had expected and I think the vote on a final package could be even closer.

For most of DL's FO's, it won't be that hard to replace their current income given how far their current income has fallen at DL. For captain's it's a different story, they have much more to lose.

I also think DL management is going to have to balance their growth plans better if they want pilots to accept concessions. Right now, DL management wants to massively expand large RJ operations using the DCI carriers. However, at the same time, they plan to continue shrinking DL mainline. This means that many of DL's FO's will stand little chance of upgrading to captain in any reasonable time frame.
 
N1120A
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:13 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 2):
Reminds me of when Eastern Airlines management and Pilots commited a mutual suicide with a strike a number of years ago.

Actually, it was the Mechanics and the Management, but yeah

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 6):
If the pilots strike, DL will liquidate immediately. Grinstein has said as much, and the pilots and their union surely know it. That's why, just like a few months ago with the temporary deal, a permanent resolution will be reached by the deadline.

If DL thinks the pilots are something to worry about, they should really be worried about all their non-union employees. There are rules that govern when and how a union can strike, a non-union employee group can walk out with absolutely ZERO notice and cripple DL with no warning at all. It is actually the case with DL that they have hurt themselves by being so staunchly anti-union.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
DL787932ER
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:22 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):

Without a union, who would organize a large-scale strike? That scenario doesn't make sense. All the employees except the pilots had their wages cut at the start of the year; there's no reason for a random group of employees to just up and leave because of a wage cut they knew about for months. The only wage issue left is the pilots because they're the only unionized group.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
deltagator
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 7):
If you feel bad for DL pilots, you should be very sad about 95% of Americans, 99.9% of the rest of the world and probably sorry for yourself as well. These are fortunate people who have not behaved gracefully in years past, something that should not be forgotten in this time of predictable fallout.

"Feeling bad" is probably the wrong term to use. It makes me sound like some liberal bedwetter. Do I think DL pilots were getting a lot of money for the amount of work they do? Yes. Do I think they were overpaid? Probably. Do I think they are getting the shaft because the old management squandering the earlier concessions and now the newer management (meet the new boss...same as the old boss) has come back to the well? Yes.

I certainly don't feel sad for them or anyone else out there. Not sure where you were going with that comment though.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9):
Right now, DL management wants to massively expand large RJ operations using the DCI carriers.

What?! I thought we all knew by now the myth of the RJ and lower costs. Unless of course they can get CASM costs down by cutting all other costs as well.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
airfrnt
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 2):
Reminds me of when Eastern Airlines management and Pilots commited a mutual suicide with a strike a number of years ago.

A pity, because at one time Delta was the best.

Calling it mutual suicide I don't think is accurate. It was murder-suicide. The fact that Eastern handed the unions the gun (trying to convience them that the fiscal condition of the company really was that bad) didn't excuse the unions from actually using it.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 8):
Delta has serious problems and management does not seem to know how to fix them

Obviously YOU know better, don't you  Yeah sure .

Quoting Poitin (Reply 8):
Time to press the "reset" button, unfortunately.

Tell that the tens of thousands of employees that would lose their job face to face.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9):
Right now, DL management wants to massively expand large RJ operations using the DCI carriers.

Is that the same airline that planes to drop 30-50 CRJs at Comair? And if you mean expanded use of 70-seaters, the EMB-170s, which will be the primary plane, are not RJs. They are mainline planes, just flown by DCI pilots.
 
H53Epilot
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:19 am

EMB-170s are in fact, 70-seat regional jets. They are not mainline planes. They are regional planes flown by regional pilots, AKA CHQ. What am I missing?
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:20 am

Quoting H53Epilot (Reply 15):
What am I missing?

Simple, ask Embraer themselves. The E-Jet family are not Regional Jets.
 
Poitin
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:36 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 14):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 8):
Delta has serious problems and management does not seem to know how to fix them

Obviously YOU know better, don't you Yeah sure .

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it does not take much to know that it is probably a duck. If you think Delta's management is not to blame, then that is fine by me. They are lame ducks in any case.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 14):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 8):
Time to press the "reset" button, unfortunately.

Tell that the tens of thousands of employees that would lose their job face to face.

Unless you can replace Delta's management, which I submit you cannot, then what else happens? They will lose their jobs regardless what you might wish. That is life in the American business world: You lose your job, you get another.

Life goes on.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
WesternA318
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:44 am

Looks like its time I finally make good on my plans to up my shares in AirTran from 1500 to 2250...  duck 
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 14):
Is that the same airline that planes to drop 30-50 CRJs at Comair? And if you mean expanded use of 70-seaters, the EMB-170s, which will be the primary plane, are not RJs. They are mainline planes, just flown by DCI pilots.

Yes, DL is dumping 30-50 of the smaller 50 seat RJ's, however they want permission to add up to 200 79-seat RJ's.

You are dreaming if you think all of these orders are going to be EMB170's. It would be nice as the EMB170 is a superior plane in terms of comfort, but many of the large RJ's will be of the CRJ variety. DL could never get enough EMB170 delivery slots, not to mention fleet commonality issues at certain regionals (ASA/SkyWest won't be buying the the EMB170).

But the bottomline for the DL mainline pilots, is that DL is willing to invest big money into planes that the pilots will never get to fly. Eventually, the pilots are bound to get fed up watching DL hand a bigger and bigger chunk of its revenues to the regional affiliates. DL has already invested huge amounts of money into the DCI carriers and has very little to show for it.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:15 am

Maybe President Bush should use his claimed anti-terror and national security powers and wiretap without warrents the phone lines of this office and the pilots. He could claim that the pilots are holding Americans hostage.  biggrin 
Seriously, this could have a huge impact on the economy the lives of many people with and around the airline as well as millions of it's customers. The big fear is that of the end of DL as an airline. While I understand that maybe the cuts have gone too far against DL's pilots from their view, it would sure look like suricide to me. It also certantly wouldn't look good on Bush's or any Politican's resume if this strike were to happen. As a major international carrier, it could really hurt our tourism as well for a long time and probably well into Summer, until DL's capicity is covered by other airlines, stand many 1,000's throughout the USA and elsewhere in the world, as well as our security, diplomacy, image and so on.
 
ilikeyyc
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:41 am

pretty much what I posted on another forum...


It is the responsibility of union leaders to act in the best interest of their members. However, in this case, I see it as political maneuvering. They can't just say to their members "we'll fight for you" while at the same time they are agreeing to wage reductions or else it is an empty promise. They are just keeping members happy while they give in to management. Yet the members could reject the contract since they are the ones who have to ratify it. I don't see them going on strike.

Personally, I don't want anything to happen to Delta because, as a newbie mechanic at ASA, my job is tied to Delta.
Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
deltagator
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 21):
It is the responsibility of union leaders to act in the best interest of their members.

Responsibility is one thing. The actual actions of fat cat union leaders are another thing. When both sides take a "Screw You!" attitude then they both lose in the end.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
ilikeyyc
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:11 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 22):
Responsibility is one thing. The actual actions of fat cat union leaders are another thing. When both sides take a "Screw You!" attitude then they both lose in the end.

Responsibility as in "resopnsible to the people that pay the dues."

It is also the duty of management not to agree to anything that they can't deliver on. I'm thinking of the pay raises when Mullin was in charge.

But, yes, neither side is perfect, both sides are looking after their own interests- share holders and labor.
Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 7):
Unemployed pilots are the ones who are stuck in a bad situation. DL pilots are among the luckiest workers on planet Earth, in terms of their salary. If you feel bad for DL pilots, you should be very sad about 95% of Americans, 99.9% of the rest of the world and probably sorry for yourself as well. These are fortunate people who have not behaved gracefully in years past, something that should not be forgotten in this time of predictable fallout.

I have to say, someone 'gets it.'

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 19):
But the bottomline for the DL mainline pilots, is that DL is willing to invest big money into planes that the pilots will never get to fly

You are hearing this from a guy who has never spoken in depth with a DL pilot and is unaware that DL pilots have no interest in flying a plane under 100 seats. And if they do, they don't want the pay of the 70 seater. DL was very willing to put DL pilots in a 170, but the pilots want nothing to do with, so you move to the next group.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
surfdog75
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:01 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 19):
But the bottomline for the DL mainline pilots, is that DL is willing to invest big money into planes that the pilots will never get to fly. Eventually, the pilots are bound to get fed up watching DL hand a bigger and bigger chunk of its revenues to the regional affiliates. DL has already invested huge amounts of money into the DCI carriers and has very little to show for it.

You are exactly right. We are already fed up with the massive job transfer. Scope is the most important issue for me and many others. Anything over 70 seats needs to be on mainline. People need to understand that it isn't just pilot jobs that go away when we give the flying to other companies; it's flights attendants, mechanics, gate agents and many others who have built this company. If we lose more mainline jobs we will never see them again. I would be in favor of outsourcing management though Wink.
 
gigneil
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:14 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 14):
They are mainline planes, just flown by DCI pilots.

That isn't correct. They are flown by Republic, just like pretty much every other E170 in the US. They're contracted by DCI, and they say Delta Connection on them.

N
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:10 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 24):
DL pilots have no interest in flying a plane under 100 seats. And if they do, they don't want the pay of the 70 seater. DL was very willing to put DL pilots in a 170, but the pilots want nothing to do with, so you move to the next group.



Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 25):
Scope is the most important issue for me and many others. Anything over 70 seats needs to be on mainline.

See.





OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:29 pm

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 25):
People need to understand that it isn't just pilot jobs that go away when we give the flying to other companies; it's flights attendants, mechanics, gate agents and many others who have built this company. If we lose more mainline jobs we will never see them again.

And by the way, what do you think will happen with a strike? Makes you wonder doesn't it, who's the worse of the two evils?  scratchchin 



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:31 pm

Been awhile since we've had a good union thread eh?

From the articles-

  • The airline had asked the union to eliminate a furlough provision, which was similar to a severance package. About 500 pilots are already on furlough, he said.
  • Moak also indicated union leaders were dismayed by the company's request Wednesday that the bankruptcy court give the airline permission to reinstate its pre-bankruptcy severance practices for 144 officers and director-level employees.
  • The airline said it believes the pilots' pension plan -- guaranteeing retired pilots a monthly payment based on their years of service and salary -- will be terminated.

    This stuff reeks...reeks of Leo Mullin, and also of NW's management. Noone seems to notice on here that it's not just about the pay, it's these other little bits of 'niceness'. The company, in addition to being bullheaded in it's monetary amount, also wants the ability to kick pilots out at will, kill the pensions, but protect the very cronies who are starting it. (I do give credit to Jerry for opting out of those however)

    Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 7):
    These are fortunate people who have not behaved gracefully in years past, something that should not be forgotten in this time of predictable fallout.

    Ignorant statement, simply put.

    Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9):
    For most of DL's FO's, it won't be that hard to replace their current income given how far their current income has fallen at DL. For captain's it's a different story, they have much more to lose.

    Precisely. Guys like my dad, very junior and making essentially less than they did while in the military have nothing to lose, perhaps gain by finding new work. It was that group that voted no to the temporary paycuts, and the senior Capts who have their entire livelihood tied up in DL that voted yes to the cuts...solidarity at it's finest  headache 

    Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 21):
    They can't just say to their members "we'll fight for you" while at the same time they are agreeing to wage reductions or else it is an empty promise.

    I agree. The fight was being stuck to management at the 1113 hearings, but they buckled and gave in, right when the fight was good. (IMHO, had they continued, Judge Beatty would have eventually told Jerry to go find another ATM)

    This is truly a Cold War, complete with MAD...Mutually Assured Destruction. If you f* with the pilot's contract, they'll kill the company...you'd think the balance of power would keep both sides at bay, but this may get ugly soon. Just like at NW, this is a matter of union breaking, and the company is on the warpath to prove something, and get what they want- like a little baby. Isn't 115 Mil. enough? Isn't nearly 50% of one's pay enough? Apparently not. The company isn't holding their end up in these "good-faith" negotiations.

    DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:28 pm

I've talked to plenty of DL pilots and many feel exactly like Surfdog. They are tired of watching DL replace 732/733/MD88 routes with RJ's. They might not be so upset if this strategy of transferring DL flying to regionals had been successful, but there's little evidence that it has. DL has more RJ's than any other carrier, yet despite having all those RJ's, DL hasn't faired any better than the rest of the legacy carriers.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 24):
DL was very willing to put DL pilots in a 170, but the pilots want nothing to do with, so you move to the next group.

I'd love to see some proof of this. Everything I've heard is that management is absolutely against operating the 170 at mainline...no matter what pay the pilots accept. Even if DL pilots offered to fly it at the same rate as Republic, DL management would say no. DL management isn't interested in growing mainline.
 
goaliemn
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:46 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
If DL thinks the pilots are something to worry about, they should really be worried about all their non-union employees. There are rules that govern when and how a union can strike, a non-union employee group can walk out with absolutely ZERO notice and cripple DL with no warning at all. It is actually the case with DL that they have hurt themselves by being so staunchly anti-union.

The big difference is most non-union people will quit. Too many union people feel they are entitled to a job at DL for a certain pay. If you try to squeeze too much money from most non-union people, they throw their resume out and find a new job. Its usually afew at a time, not an entire company. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I'd be surprised. Union members will demand their union get them back their pay, and then strike if they can't get it back.
 
LongbowPilot
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:41 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
Pretty much expected this one sooner or later. I'm not a huge fan of unions but these guys are getting mistreated by DL somewhat. I know they made a huge salary compared to other carriers but they made concessions once already and it seems management at the time screwed things up and squandered it. Now management has come back to the well asking for more because of their miscalculations.

Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place for the pilots. Keep your job and get screwed by the company or strike and most likely send the airline into liquidation and therefore no job.

One thing of note is that Grinstein and Whitehurst have opted out of the severence package they are trying to get set up for management retention. I'm sure they have a golden parachute somewhere but it does set a small example to their employees that they aren't completely evil.

You can only ask a non-pilot at DL to take so many paycuts before they are on food stamps ya know. The PILOTS make far more then the ramp rats up to lower management. Sure it sucks they are being asked to make concessions, but the writing is on the wall for all to see that if the Union does something stupid they will see an Airline Fallout.

The union itself probably doens't care either way. These pilots will probably find jobs when the industry levels and others take the routes and "fill in" the gaps. So there is employment for them. The union will see those payments again as pilots move to other carriers.

I'm a huge fan of DL, worked for them for 5 years and they were wonderful. I would work for them again, mostly because they are non-union. Which leads me to the assault on the thread below.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
It is actually the case with DL that they have hurt themselves by being so staunchly anti-union.

DL is not anti-union, on the contrary the employees are anti-union. DL has taken care of its employees in the past. When they were in the GOLDEN era in the late 90's with record bookings, boardings, and profit, the airline did pass it on to the employees. They increased wages and modified benefits. Then when 9/11 happened, the airline asked the employees to help. Some elected to take a leave of absence, and some even agreed to moving to another station. So you see the employees and company have a MATURE relationship. They realize that when the money is tight that we need to help. Unions have been trying to get into the CSA, and Mechanic areas for years, asking for meetings and passing around flyers. Most people just fill the dumpster in the DL Parking lot.

So DL isn't anti-union, the employees are because HULLO "EASTERN PIEDMONT, WESTERN" got burried by them right?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 28):
And by the way, what do you think will happen with a strike? Makes you wonder doesn't it, who's the worse of the two evils?

Good point, but you are being a  stirthepot 
 
chgoflyer
Posts: 312
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 20):
Maybe President Bush should use his claimed anti-terror and national security powers and wiretap without warrents the phone lines of this office and the pilots. He could claim that the pilots are holding Americans hostage

Hurricanes, poorly run companies with over paid employees, toenail fungus, problems in the Mid-East, no meals in couch! all W's fault
Will someone please wake me up in 4 years
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 30):
are tired of watching DL replace 732/733/MD88 routes with RJ's.

No shit? Who wouldn't be? How does this statement prove anything being said?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 30):
I'd love to see some proof of this. Everything I've heard is that management is absolutely against operating the 170 at mainline...no matter what pay the pilots accept.

Once again, not surprising this guy hasn't heard anything. One of the proposals from management to the pilots in their contract was to buy a buttload of E-170/90's to replace 737's when possible. But the pay would be much lower than what DL pilots are used to, since no DL airplane is under 100 seats. The union rejected the contract. No 'pilots spoken to' didn't mention that? Funny, since it was only one of their biggest things to bitch and laugh about what the company offered.  sarcastic 



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 34):
How does this statement prove anything being said?

It explains why the pilots are hesitant to help the company. Why help the company when the company is going to take the concession money and invest it in regional affiliates?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 34):
One of the proposals from management to the pilots in their contract was to buy a buttload of E-170/90's to replace 737's when possible.

Just because management makes a proposal doesn't mean they are serious about actually ordering the plane. DL management knew the pilots would reject the pay since DL wanted to pay the pilots less than regional pilots are paid for the same equipment.

When you offer a ridiculous proposal that you know is unacceptable, you aren't serious about ordering the plane. DL management likes to play these types of games....which is why negotiations are always so long and drawn out.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Why bother? If we have learned anything from pilots, we know that after much bluster and empty rhetoric, they will "cave" to whatever draconian concessions managemnt seeks to impose, in the interest of keeping their beloved jobs. Sure there will be plenty of smoke-and-mirrors about how "a compromise agreement satisfactory to both sides was reached," but the plain and simple reality will be that the pilots caved. Be sure that Delta's management also knows they will.

My prediction, incredulous as it may sound, is that until mainline pilot top-end salaries drop somewhere below $30k per year, pilots will keep caving to management's demands.

So why bother with all the fuss and expense of setting up a strike center?
 
KarlB737
Topic Author
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:27 am

Courtesy: The Washington Post

Delta Pilots Want Wage Scales Restored

By HARRY R. WEBER
The Associated Press
Friday, February 10, 2006; 4:24 PM

ATLANTA -- A Delta Air Lines Inc. official told management employees Friday that the company's pilots are asking that their wage scales be restored to December 2004 levels after a certain period.

Dan Lewis, the company's vice president of corporate communications, said in a memo to officers and directors that the request was made in the latest offer on new pay and benefit cuts by the union representing Delta's 6,000 pilots.

Lewis said the union also wants an interest-bearing note of roughly $1 billion, presumably in case the pilots' defined benefit pension is terminated. Lewis said Delta has offered the pilots a $300 million note.

The newly revealed terms come as negotiators for both sides try to reach a pact on a second round of concessions before a March 1 deadline. If they can't, a three-person arbitration panel will decide Delta's request that its contract with its pilots be thrown out so the company can impose $325 million in cuts unilaterally.

Go to link below for rest of two page article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2006/02/10/AR2006021000301.html
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:19 pm

In a way, what the pilots are asking for is completely reasonable. As it sits now, especially with the threat of the contract being destroyed, one has no idea how long these ridiculously deep paycuts will last...we know the first round was for a term of 5 years (too long IMHO). The company needs to start making some give-take offers now too, instead of wanting a flat amount and nothing less- this isn't negotiations, this is a kangaroo court.

As for the $300 mil note for the pensions, pff, that's merely a drop in the bucket. The fact that the company is offering that is a clear indication that they have no plans to keep the pension plans. If they cancel that, and throw out the contract, I hope the pilots drive the whole company into the ground...enough is enough.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
WesternA318
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:29 pm

"If you smacked a kid in the face with a bottle of Johnson and Johnson's No More Tears, would it create beautiful irony?"

DeltaGuy, welcome to my RU list!
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
Boeingfan
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:38 pm

Bankruptcy, debt, rising fuel costs... gee...wonder what will happen if pilots strike? Chapter 7 liquidation? The fleet sale ... Just what AA and other carriers hope for. Remove some of the excess capacity, raise airfares, improve revenue for other carriers? Hey, go on strike. The job market is not so hot out there... maybe a job at Virgin America at a 80% pay cut, with twice the hours. Deal... or no deal.
 
N1120A
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:40 pm

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 11):
Without a union, who would organize a large-scale strike? That scenario doesn't make sense. All the employees except the pilots had their wages cut at the start of the year; there's no reason for a random group of employees to just up and leave because of a wage cut they knew about for months.

Thing is, DL's people were already some of the best paid in the industry, specifically because DL knows that they can just up and leave. If it got too bad for the F/As or some other group, you would either have a quick organization and walk or DL would just have so many people leave for greener pastures, DL would be left with such a severe staff shortage, they would be screwed

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 38):

Awesome post
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:44 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 35):
Why help the company when the company is going to take the concession money and invest it in regional affiliates?

Says who, the pilots? Real biased source there, no?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 35):
DL management knew the pilots would reject the pay since DL wanted to pay the pilots less than regional pilots are paid for the same equipment.

They didn't offer that. I'm actually speaking out of context because I'm not that privy to the offers going on as far as numbers, but they weren't getting Mesa or Chatauqua pay. They would get pay comparable to that aircraft and how it would fit in to the aircraft size/seats for pay purposes.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 35):
When you offer a ridiculous proposal that you know is unacceptable, you aren't serious about ordering the plane. DL management likes to play these types of games....which is why negotiations are always so long and drawn out.

Yea, I guess that is why during the first round of concessions, the company asked for 33% and ALPA dragged its ass for 9 months and how much did they end up giving, a whole 32.5%. The pilots dragged ass for 9 months to give up .5 %. They could have offered that at the very beginning and I'm sure the company would have accepted. But no, they started with 9%. But you can blame management for that, can't you? You always do.



OttoPylit
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bucky707
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:06 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 42):
Yea, I guess that is why during the first round of concessions, the company asked for 33% and ALPA dragged its ass for 9 months and how much did they end up giving, a whole 32.5%. The pilots dragged ass for 9 months to give up .5 %. They

that comment goes to show how little you know about pilot contracts. Pay rates were a very small part of the process during the first round and are a very small part of the process this time.

Personally speaking, I have no problem with the pay rates the company is asking. I do have a serious problem with some of the other requests from the company and will strike to defend them.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:03 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 43):
that comment goes to show how little you know about pilot contracts. Pay rates were a very small part of the process during the first round and are a very small part of the process this time.

Then apparently the rest of the company doesn't know either, because I'm looking at an old Delta Digest that refers to the pilots ratifying the 32.5% pay concessions. It says nothing about anything in addition to that.  confused 

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 43):
Personally speaking, I have no problem with the pay rates the company is asking. I do have a serious problem with some of the other requests from the company and will strike to defend them.

Like what? Enlighten us a little more on what the company is asking and show the "little-knowing" of us what more is wanted. Ya never know, I might just say, "Your right, that is wrong for the company to want that."



OttoPylit
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:24 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 42):
Says who, the pilots?

Past history. DL hasn't invested a dime in buying a mainline plane in years. Yet, how many RJ's have been added in that time? My guess is 100+. Maybe this time would be different, but with DL management wanting almost unlimited scope to add 100+ 79 seat RJ's at DCI, I think many pilots know where their concession money will be going.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 42):
I'm actually speaking out of context because I'm not that privy to the offers going on as far as numbers, but they weren't getting Mesa or Chatauqua pay.

Actually, the pay that DL offered was around the same as Republic (same as Chautauqua since they all use the same pay scale) would offer to fly the EMB170/190 and only slightly more than what ASA is paid to fly the CRJ700. It was also less than what Horizon pays its pilots to fly the CRJ700.

However, I would agree with Bucky707 that pay really isn't the sticking point. Most of the DL pilots I know have three big beefs:

1) DL wants almost unlimited scope to add more RJ's. DL intends to replace all the 732's and 733's with RJ's.

2) DL wants to eliminate the pension plan and provide the pilots with little credit despite the massive savings.

3) DL has done little to address equity and profit sharing issues. In addition, many pilots want pay to snap back if DL should suddenly become massively profitable. They don't want a repeat of the late 90's where DL made lots of money and the pilots were told they couldn't enjoy the wealth. The pilots eventually got big raises, but by then DL was falling apart.

I'm not saying I personally agree with all the pilot issues (although I think the pilots have good reason given DL's past (mis)management), but these are some of the issues that go beyond simple pay.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:44 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 45):
Past history. DL hasn't invested a dime in buying a mainline plane in years.

The last 738 recieved was in 2001, I believe. And there are still more on confirmed order. So with the exception of 9/11 and the downturn in travel, Delta has invested in mainline as long as there was money available.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 45):
Yet, how many RJ's have been added in that time? My guess is 100+.

You always over-exaggerate.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 45):
Actually, the pay that DL offered was around the same as Republic (same as Chautauqua since they all use the same pay scale)

And where is your proof of this? There I go again, wanting proof from you that you always just ignore. Until you can prove that, your point is baseless and pure speculation(and most likely in error). You seem to be so positive of this, please prove me wrong.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 45):
2) DL wants to eliminate the pension plan and provide the pilots with little credit despite the massive savings.

Again, your wrong. They have not said they will eliminate their pension plan. They are setting up for a payout IN CASE THEY DO, but nothing has been said yet. Personally, I believe it will be gone and I said that the day US and UA got rid of theirs, I knew everyones would go away. But there is NOTHING that says Delta wants to do it, so don't even try. And the company is offering $300 million, ALPA wants $1 billion. Considering what ALPA would usually want as compared to what the company is offering, I would say the difference of $700 million is pretty good. They won't get it though.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 45):
3) DL has done little to address equity and profit sharing issues.

What a load of crap. Ever since DL has started losing money, I've been seeing more in my paycheck whenever Delta is successful in lowest passenger complaints, highest on time arrivals, and lowest bag mishandlings. In fact, in another day or so, I will have an extra $25 in my paycheck because we met one of those factors in December. I've gotten an extra $100 in my paycheck 3 times in the past year, along with everyone else in the company. These profit sharing incentives weren't available pre-2004. So to make it short, you're again wrong.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 45):
In addition, many pilots want pay to snap back if DL should suddenly become massively profitable.

Now that I do agree with. Although I think if they do get that pay guarantee if profitability returns, they should say ALL of our pay returns. Shows what teamwork they want with the rest of the company.  sarcastic 



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
panamair
Posts: 3759
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:09 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 45):
In addition, many pilots want pay to snap back if DL should suddenly become massively profitable. They don't want a repeat of the late 90's where DL made lots of money and the pilots were told they couldn't enjoy the wealth. The pilots eventually got big raises, but by then DL was falling apart.

I agree that ALL employees should see 'snapbacks' (or some form of it) if DL were to become massively profitable. However, if there are to be snap-backs in place for profitable times, then there should also be triggers for cuts if things go in the opposite direction..none of this foot dragging stuff....fair is fair, right?

[Edited 2006-02-14 09:11:59]
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
Again, your wrong. They have not said they will eliminate their pension plan. They are setting up for a payout IN CASE THEY DO, but nothing has been said yet.

The language they've been using seems to indicate they'd love to if they could...the mere fact that they offered $300 mil in case shows that they're damn close. I guess if one airline can do it, the others must be okay to do it? Plain theft.

If/When DL becomes profitable again in the next few years, expect management to get a nice helping of the profits to 'reward' their 'leadership'. I'd venture to say that rewarding the employees is dead last on the list.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
skibum9
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RE: Delta Pilots To Open Strike Center In Atlanta

Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:53 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 48):
If/When DL becomes profitable again in the next few years, expect management to get a nice helping of the profits to 'reward' their 'leadership'. I'd venture to say that rewarding the employees is dead last on the list.

OK what about rewarding the shareholders? They are the true owners of the company, not management, not the employees and not the pilots. They have seen their equity go to nothing. And I don't want to hear about that it is a risk they take in the stockmarket, which it is, while on the same token, employmeni are "at will." Meaning they are free to leave and seek jobs, sometimes more lucrative, elsewhere. Personally I think, management, nor the employees, should get snap-backs until the shareholder value is restored, which will take more than becoming profitable. It has to prove it can remain profitable.
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