nwab787techops
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Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:59 am

I don't know about you guys ,but to me it looks like Delta may be adding a little too much this year. Oh, I love to see new route for US airlines. To see a US airline is going back to Africa is Great! But, adding service is not cheap. This is not FL, it takes years to get routes like South Africa making money. Delta has not got the money and or the time.
 
tpaewr
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:06 am

DL has a habit of pulling out of markets just as fast, if they don't pan out. While no doubt some will work, I suspect that a least of a few of these will go the way of the DL's FRA or PDX hubs.
 
satx
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Servic

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:14 am

"You put your new route in, you take your new route out, you put your new route in and you shake it all about. You do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself around. That's what it's all about."

Anybody else know this song?
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
tpaewr
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
song

Funny you should mention "song"
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting Nwab787techops (Thread starter):
Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Yes.

They're essentially putting all their eggs in one basket (ATL) and as we all know, that never ends well.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
rwsea
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
They're essentially putting all their eggs in one basket (ATL) and as we all know, that never ends well.

Not at all. What about all the flights they've added this year from JFK, including the following:

JFK-Kiev
JFK-Budapest
JFK-Manchester
JFK-Dublin/Shannon
JFK-Sao Paulo
JFK-Santo Domingo

While ATL has seen a good deal of expansion, JFK has had quite a bit too. Hardly putting all the eggs in one basket.
 
iowaman
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 5):
While ATL has seen a good deal of expansion, JFK has had quite a bit too. Hardly putting all the eggs in one basket.

SLC has also had a sizeable expansion with dozens of new n/s destinations last year.
 
gokmengs
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
Yes.

They're essentially putting all their eggs in one basket (ATL) and as we all know, that never ends well.

Ohh yeah, whats CO doing over at EWR?
DL is not putting all its eggs in one basket, they are very strong in JFK. Don't forget CVG either.
Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
 
MAH4546
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:04 am

Opening up new routes to existing stations, like Athens, is a minimal investment. I think this summer will be a big experimental summer for Delta. I doubt all of the routes will return next year. For example, I would not bet on Atlanta-Nice and Atlanta-Venice returning after this summer. Atlanta-Edinburgh bookings were low enough that the start date was pushed back a few weeks to June. The LatAm routes will probably do well, but some of the Caribbean routes to smaller markets, like Kingston and Bridgetown, are bigger risks. I don't expect JFK-GRU to last long either, and Atlanta-Copenhagen will likely suffer during the winter months. Other routes, like JFK-Kiev and Atlanta-Tel Aviv, IMO, show great potential.

This is just my opinion, though.
a.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Servic

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
They're essentially putting all their eggs in one basket (ATL) and as we all know, that never ends well.

Let's see:
BOS-CUN/NAS/BWI, IAD-CUN, JFK-ACA/PVR/KBP/MAN/DUB/SNN/SJD/CZM/GRU/AUS/SAT/MIA/SDQ/STI/SJU, LAX-RDU/CMH/PVR/MZT/CZM/ACA/ZIH, LGA-ORD/DFW/MSY/MIA, MCO-BMI/MLI/ROC/PHF/ICT/MSY/DFW/OKC/TUL/BTR/MCI, SLC-KOA/LIH/MZT/PVR/MSY/LGB/MIA/YEG/MKE/IND/CMH/RDU/CLE/MEM/BNA/BDL/LGA
CVG-CUN/SJD/MBJ.
Yeah, obviously Delta must be operating everything through Atlanta, and they are overdoing their expansion and they should grow slower on international routes and shrink faster on domestic routes and not reduce capacity at all and drop unprofitable flights, but please not to my own cow pasture of an airport, blablabla. A.net armchair CEO's, you just gotta love them.
Sorry for that, but I had to say it.
 
cs03
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:04 am

Delta clearly thinks that a majority of these routes will make money, and using the connection "power" of Atlanta will help them to achieve such. CO is doing well at EWR with International service, so DL figures that they can do the same thing at ATL!
 
nwab787techops
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:23 am

Quoting Cs03 (Reply 10):
Delta clearly thinks that a majority of these routes will make money, and using the connection "power" of Atlanta will help them to achieve such. CO is doing well at EWR with International service, so DL figures that they can do the same thing at ATL

Most of EWR internation service is not form connections. EWR is in NJ, but it's a NYC airport. Even then it was years for CO to get where they are today.
 
ATLFlyer323
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:35 am

Quoting Nwab787techops (Reply 11):
Most of EWR internation service is not form connections. EWR is in NJ, but it's a NYC airport. Even then it was years for CO to get where they are today.

And ATL was built in a day? Any expansion where they think they can make a profit is perfectly fine with me. :P

~Brandon
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:18 am

There are obviously people that are threatened to see DL expand beyond Florida and western Europe. Unfortunately, DL is smart enough to seize opportunities that are out there and which other carriers are not going after.

AA and CO have both talked about serving Russia but DL has now added a 2nd flight ... and I wouldn't be surprised if more is on the road. DL's new Kiev and Budapest flights only strengthens DL's presence in Eastern Europe ... and I would bet Warsaw is under consideration. CO tried to add service to Nigeria, which could have served as a transit point for S. Africa service but they couldn't make it work.

DL has added service in every region of the world except East Asia and they are vying for Beijing service. DL's international expansion is not only diversified but it is even further diversifying DL's international route system which up to this point has been heavily concentrated on western Europe.

DL is doing exactly what they should be doing. The fact that few other airlines can do much only makes DL's international expansion that much more likely to succeed. As we have seen today, US had to buy used 757s in order to expand it's international network. There are precious few international capable aircraft in the US fleet which are not being used as such outside of DL so DL has the ability to do much more while other airlines have to sit, watch DL grow, and as they wait for new aircraft.
 
PSA727
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:26 am

I could not agree more with the doubts surrounding Delta's Intl expansion.
IMO they are adding too many new destinations in too close of time frame.
Who is going to open up these stations for them? Do they have enough in-
house staff to do this? And do you notice that none of the new US-Europe
routes involves SLC. You would think that they would at least include an
SLC-CDG route to give better connecting options for West Coast travelers,
as well as those wanting to go thoughout Europe, the Middle East, and Africa
via CDG. Let's wait and see what their 2007 timetable has in comparison to
this year's. I bet that about a third to a half of these new routes will be
discontinued by then. I think that this bold expansion is more of an attempt
by DL to acquire more financing while in Ch 11. After all, we always hear in
the business section about airlines shifting their aircraft from less profitable
domestic routes to high-yielding international ones. But no one seems to
calculate that if everyone does that, then there will be massive overcapacity
issues to deal with, which means having to lower fares to gain more of the
market share. Haven't we been there before somewhere?
fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
 
B4REAL
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:57 am

Quoting Nwab787techops (Thread starter):
Oh, I love to see new route for US airlines. To see a US airline is going back to Africa is Great! But, adding service is not cheap.

For some of the routes, I agree, but JNB is a low risk service among new stations for DL. They've been selling codeshares for YEARS and have a clue about the decision.

I agree with some of the statements above about ATL-NCE/VCE/CPH for the long-term. I am, however, saddened that CVG, domestically, has really been butchered pretty bad. I hope it doesn't fully go DFW.

But, they're in Ch.11 - they can't just sit still!
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:30 pm

I think that JFK-KBP will do very well!! There is great demand for that route.

Aeroflot777
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:42 pm

DL is really opening only about a half dozen new cities. Much of the JFK and ATL transatlantic flying is duplicating what is being flown out of the opposite city, only increasing DL's ground efficiencies at each of the cities. While it is certain that the frequencies will be reduced in the winter, DL will likely serve most of these routes year round.

DL also contracts out most of its ground handling in most of its cities - so they don't have to hire lots of people.

SLC probably has international potential to CDG and LGW but DL is clearly focusing on ATL and JFK where traffic naturally flies over enroute to Europe. NYC is a highly competitive market while ATL is a very solid hub; SLC int'l would be "experimental or developmental" and, despite your assessement, DL has a pretty small amount of developmenal flying in its current plan. DL has flown to Copenhagen and Budapest before.

Remember that DL's costs are now lower than many of its other peers so DL has a better chance of making these routes work than they do. Why do you think CO is having such a fit about DL's expansion but because DL is becoming a fierce competitor with lower costs instead of letting CO expand in EWR at will?
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:03 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13):
CO tried to add service to Nigeria, which could have served as a transit point for S. Africa service but they couldn't make it work.

In all fairness to CO, that wasn't their fault but rather that of the governments of the US and Nigeria having a p*ssing match over Virgin Nigeria flying to the US.

Quoting B4real (Reply 15):
I am, however, saddened that CVG, domestically, has really been butchered pretty bad. I hope it doesn't fully go DFW.

Same here. Only connected through CVG thrice, but it was easy to get around, and not as crowded. Not that I have any issues with ATL, but CVG made for a nice change to the usual routine. At least a few international destinations (MBJ, SJD, *SJU*) are being added.

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 14):
And do you notice that none of the new US-Europe
routes involves SLC. You would think that they would at least include an
SLC-CDG route to give better connecting options for West Coast travelers,
as well as those wanting to go thoughout Europe, the Middle East, and Africa
via CDG.

The simple reason is that for now, SLC simply doesn't justify the use of a 200-seat aircraft for a daily flight to Europe, because the deman is just not there. The large cities in the West that have demand to Europe already have their nonstops to Europe, some even on AF to CDG, or it is just as easy for them to connect via ATL, CVG or JFK, which all offer more destinations in Europe than SLC ever could. The smaller markets that fit into neither category simply don't provide enough feed for now to justify a flight. Now, thing can change, like DL adding more destinations, or getting a smaller plane capable of this route *cough*73GER*cough*, but that would just be speculation.

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 14):
Let's wait and see what their 2007 timetable has in comparison to this year's.

Even more international destinations and even more non-ATL point-to-point flights.

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 14):
I bet that about a third to a half of these new routes will be discontinued by then.

How much are you willing to bet?

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 14):
I think that this bold expansion is more of an attempt
by DL to acquire more financing while in Ch 11.

Yeah, right.

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 14):
But no one seems to calculate that if everyone does that, then there will be massive overcapacity issues to deal with,

2 things:
First, not everyone has the capacity available to expand internationally, and second, not everyone is going to fly like places KBP, JNB or UIO. There's a reason why Delta is moving away from traditional destinations to more far-out places.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Servic

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:05 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 18):
Quoting PSA727 (Reply 14):
I bet that about a third to a half of these new routes will be discontinued by then.

How much are you willing to bet?

Maybe not a third, but it is very safe to assume that 4-5 of them won't last long. My bets are on ATL-EDI/NCE/VCE, JFK-GRU, and maybe ATL-KIN.
a.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:41 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 19):
Maybe not a third, but it is very safe to assume that 4-5 of them won't last long. My bets are on ATL-EDI/NCE/VCE, JFK-GRU, and maybe ATL-KIN.

That's a bet I wouldn't doubt  Wink . There will be failures, no doubt for me either, but 1/3 is just too much.
 
panamair
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:30 pm

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 14):
Do they have enough in-
house staff to do this? And do you notice that none of the new US-Europe
routes involves SLC. You would think that they would at least include an
SLC-CDG route to give better connecting options for West Coast travelers,
as well as those wanting to go thoughout Europe, the Middle East, and Africa
via CDG.

As mentioned, many of these flights are to destinations they already serve (MAN, DUB, SNN, ATH, VCE, NCE). New destinations use contract companies for the most part (e.g., TXL has hardly a single DL presence on the ground; everything is handled through a contracting company. Berlin hotels even banded together to provide free hotel accomodations for DL crew during the initial service period. Also, MAA-based FAs are even hired through a third-party contracting company - they don't work directly for DL). The fact that DL is picking certain routes to start and not others (e.g., not starting ATL-IST or as you mentioned, SLC-CDG) shows that of course detailed market and traffic analysis work is being done. DL is not willy-nilly starting random international routes just for the sake of shifting capacity from domestic to international.

That being said, some of these will inevitably not be around after a year or so - most notably as mentioned before ATL-EDI and JFK-GRU. Those two will be tough. The 'big' ones such as TLV and DKR/JNB should be fine (the ATL-TLV advanced bookings are actually quite outstanding) and don't underestimate the potential popularity of a direct flight to Africa from the U.S. (without having to connect through Europe)
 
nzrich
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:03 pm

The only problem i see with Atlanta is for people living outside Nth America ..Where is ATL ??????? and why would i want to go there unless its just a stopover on the way to somewhere else .. Everyone living outside of America knows New York , LAX , SFO ,HNL and to a lesser extent Chicago but ATL I would be very surprised if anyone outside of America could show you where it is on the map let alone give you a reason to go there ...

Sorry im not knocking the place as i have no idea about it im just giving the perspective from someone outside of Nth America , if i had the choice of ATL and the cities i mentioned above i would choose one of the other cities if i had to have a stopover ..

So i would be very unlikely to fly Delta as i would be choosing a carrier that would take me to one of the more well know cities ie LAX and SFO

[Edited 2006-02-10 12:07:29]
"Pride of the pacific"
 
panamair
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:15 pm

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 22):
The only problem i see with Atlanta is for people living outside Nth America ..Where is ATL ??????? and why would i want to go there unless its just a stopover on the way to somewhere else .. Everyone living outside of America knows New York , LAX , SFO ,HNL and to a lesser extent Chicago but ATL I would be very surprised if anyone outside of America could show you where it is on the map let alone give you a reason to go there ...

And foreigners accuse Americans of being ignorant about the rest of the world? Sure, ATL is nowhere near as famous as NYC, LA, SFO or Chicago, but come on, the city is only home to CNN and Coke - two of the world's most recognized brand names, not to mention the fact that ATL hosted the 1996 Summer Olympics!
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:18 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 23):
And foreigners accuse Americans of being ignorant about the rest of the world? Sure, ATL is nowhere near as famous as NYC, LA, SFO or Chicago, but come on, the city is only home to CNN and Coke - two of the world's most recognized brand names, not to mention the fact that ATL hosted the 1996 Summer Olympics!

You hosted the olympics AND have a coke factory? Gee..... I know where im going on holidays  Yeah sure
 
panamair
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:32 pm

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 24):
You hosted the olympics AND have a coke factory? Gee..... I know where im going on holidays

Nobody is asking you to go to ATL on holidays...we're talking about recognition here...I know of many places in the world and where they are on the map but does it mean I want to go there for holidays??? Geez...
 
UN_B732
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:47 pm

JFK-KBP will have excellent performance, if they can keep bookings good with their high fares - which they should be able to do, if American contractors continue.
I think instead of some of these lower yield markets out of ATL they could have started routes like JFK-BEG (with an ERJ feeding it from ORD perhaps, as there's a HUGE Yugoslav population in Chicago), JFK-LED (great demand all around), and other markets that are severely underserved from the United States.
What now?
 
dstc47
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:48 pm

Just a reminder that DL with JFK / SNN, DUB is restoring a service that was dropped immediately post 9/11.


Have DL the money to advertise all their new services in overseas markets?
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:14 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 25):
Nobody is asking you to go to ATL on holidays...we're talking about recognition here...I know of many places in the world and where they are on the map but does it mean I want to go there for holidays??? Geez...

Your post was in response to this:

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 22):
The only problem i see with Atlanta is for people living outside Nth America ..Where is ATL ??????? and why would i want to go there unless its just a stopover on the way to somewhere else .. Everyone living outside of America knows New York , LAX , SFO ,HNL and to a lesser extent Chicago but ATL I would be very surprised if anyone outside of America could show you where it is on the map let alone give you a reason to go there ...

So you responded by telling us that coke is based there and ATL hosted the olympics..  Yeah sure
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:39 pm

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 5):
JFK-Santo Domingo

This already exists
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:39 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
Why do you think CO is having such a fit about DL's expansion but because DL is becoming a fierce competitor with lower costs instead of letting CO expand in EWR at will?

Because CO doesn't want DL flooding the international market with so many seats that yields plunge and nobody makes money. While CO has added a lot to Europe, they've done it with some of the smallest planes possible....757's and 762's. DL is dumping 763's and 764's which means more heavy discounting.

For years, DL has done this in the domestic market. They flooded markets with huge amounts of capacity using widebodies on routes that most carriers never would. That strategy has now been abandoned and DL is desperately trying to get the widebodies out of the domestic market. DL will flood the international markets instead.

The only reason DL is launching some of these routes is simply to find any place to put these planes...that's not domestic. I'm not against DL's international expansion, some of these routes are certainly justified. However, some of these routes are expansion just for the sake of keeping planes flying.
 
nyskymasters
Posts: 143
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:56 pm

It will all become a mute point on March 1st.
 
kkfla737
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 21):
Also, MAA-based FAs are even hired through a third-party contracting company - they don't work directly for DL

The flight attendents on the CDG-MAA-CDG runs are excellent! Delta should use that contracting company across the globe!
 
kkfla737
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Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:28 am

RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 18):
2 things:
First, not everyone has the capacity available to expand internationally, and second, not everyone is going to fly like places KBP, JNB or UIO. There's a reason why Delta is moving away from traditional destinations to more far-out places.

I like Delta's strategy. They are playing to their strengths. Consider that American's stratgey across the Atlantic has been for years (going back to 1987 or so) has been to pick a few high yield destinations and serve them from multiple US gateways, with lots of O&D traffic (JFK and ORD initially, and then after 1991 BOS, LAX and MIA as well.) Delta has the advantage of a megahub in Atlanta, and doesn't want to be part of the brutal competition from secondary gateways which aren't DL hubs across the Atlantic. The competition is rough enough from JFK to many of these cities but they are picking cities with minimal competition among US carriers. For example Kiev was never even served by Pan Am (who seemed to fly everywhere!) and is only served from JFK by AeroSvit, a Ukranian airline. No US airline has sevred Daker since 1987 when PA pulled out and no US airline has ever served Chennai (Madras).

I believe this is a winning strategy but still think Delta's domestic operation needs a much more serious overhaul for the airline to survive at its current size into the future. Maybe DL ends up being like PA was with a limited domestic operation and a huge int'l operation? It would be ironic given DL's history if that was the case, but stranger things have happened in this industry.
 
zamaria
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:49 pm

My only question about all of this expansion is where are they getting all of the planes for this?

If they are using existing planes with the routes (I'm pretty sure they are), why didn't they try all of these new routes before? Was their management just stupid, lazy, or both? It took massive downsizing, bankruptcy, etc to realize a little out-of-the-box thinking was necessary?

-Z
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting Nyskymasters (Reply 31):
It will all become a mute point on March 1st.

Why? Is that the day you will quit making ignorant comments and buy a dictionary?
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15325
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 5):
Not at all. What about all the flights they've added this year from JFK, including the following:

New York has the population to make these flights workable with higher yield local traffic.

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 7):
Ohh yeah, whats CO doing over at EWR?

See above.

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 7):
Don't forget CVG either.

CVG is shrinking. A lot. Domestic capacity alone is down 30% YOY. International capacity is up barely 11%, albeit from a much, much smaller base.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 9):
MCO-BMI/MLI/ROC/PHF/ICT/MSY/DFW/OKC/TUL/BTR/MCI,

You're kidding me with this, right?  Yeah sure

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 9):
A.net armchair CEO's, you just gotta love them.

So that makes you both an armchair CEO and the garden variety rude airliners.netter!  Silly
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting Nyskymasters (Reply 31):
It will all become a mute point on March 1st.

Oh great, another know-it-all  Yeah sure . Care to share your wise knowledge with use, oh knowledgable master?

Quoting Zamaria (Reply 34):
If they are using existing planes with the routes (I'm pretty sure they are),

Yes, they are.

Quoting Zamaria (Reply 34):
why didn't they try all of these new routes before?

Because some of the factors contributing to this expansion couldn't be done outside of CH11, and not to mention that it takes time to analyse what routes are worthwhile.

Quoting Zamaria (Reply 34):
Was their management just stupid, lazy, or both?

Referring to the Mullin Dictatorship, both. Referring to Grinstein, a bit lazy.

Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 33):
Maybe DL ends up being like PA was with a limited domestic operation and a huge int'l operation?

Not gonna happen. Less seats being offered, yes, CVG cut, possible, but at the same time, lots of new p2p routes, as is evidenced by LAX-CMH/RDU, just to name two.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:46 am

It doesn't matter if the average person knows where Kiev is (most Americans would think it is in a country called "Chicken", probably located next to Turkey  wink  ), but business travellers do, and THAT is the key...

Domestic Routes - barely making money

International Routes - $$$$$$$$

Okay, not all international routes are money-makers, but the odds are MUCH more in your favor that way.

As far as routing flights through ATL instead of JFK, perhaps Delta is analyzing customer information and finding that people are double transferring to get to some of these locations, and direct service from ATL would be simpler. I myself helped a fellow teacher go SAN-ATL via CVG and JFK last year - she had no problems either way, but when I told her there would be a non-stop from ATL, she was delighted!! "Oh, I'd LOVE to only have to transfer once, even if it was a bit more".

If this works for Delta, terrific. If it doesn't, they will try something else.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 5):

JFK-Kiev
JFK-Budapest
JFK-Manchester
JFK-Dublin/Shannon
JFK-Sao Paulo
JFK-Santo Domingo

While ATL has seen a good deal of expansion, JFK has had quite a bit too. Hardly putting all the eggs in one basket.

Thanks for the input. Information like this is why I read a.net.

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 22):
and why would i want to go there unless its just a stopover on the way to somewhere else ..

As others noted, its a city with a large business. I wouldn't post like that about a similar sized European or Asian city... I know that there is a chance I'll do business there. Trust me, when you start to get to travel for business you get to know cities you didn't think about before. (e.g., I never expected to find out Wichita has a ton of good restaurants that are cheap! FYI, ICT is dead center continental US.)

Quoting Nyskymasters (Reply 31):
It will all become a mute point on March 1st.

You know that comments like that need a link.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
ScottishLaddie
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:32 am

DL should get advertising here in Scotland if they want to make a good go of it, otherwise there is no hope. CO did LOADS of advertising before the EDI service started, and still do, and look at the success they've enjoyed in Scotland. I've seen nothing from DL to make the general public aware that the service exists yet.
 
zamaria
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 37):
Because some of the factors contributing to this expansion couldn't be done outside of CH11

Thanks for the information. What factors are you referring to here?

-Z
 
jumbojet
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 36):
New York has the population to make these flights workable with higher yield local traffic.

The world DOES NOT revolve around New York folks. For those of you living outside the U.S.A. and for those of you living in the U.S.A. that arent aware, there are plenty of big cities outside New York, Chicago, LA, Miami etc that have millions upon millions of people living there. Atlanta works, it has worked for a long time and it will for a long time to come.

All one needs to do is check out any delta airlines seat mapper from ATL to most any destination in Europe they serve and you will see any present or immediate flight has most if not all seats occupied
 
MAH4546
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting ScottishLaddie (Reply 40):
DL should get advertising here in Scotland if they want to make a good go of it, otherwise there is no hope. CO did LOADS of advertising before the EDI service started, and still do, and look at the success they've enjoyed in Scotland. I've seen nothing from DL to make the general public aware that the service exists yet.

This might explain why Atlanta-Ediniburgh is arguably the poorest performing of their new routes so far. Too early to tell how it will end up, but, as mentioned, it has already been pushed back. I think Delta is trying to hard at getting just US-orginating traffic with this route, which may be a mistake.
a.
 
kkfla737
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:07 am

Keep in mind JFK isn't fun for connecting or customs. My guess is that most people would rather connect in ATL despite the long walk between gates.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 23):
And foreigners accuse Americans of being ignorant about the rest of the world?

LOL Beautiful.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 30):
For years, DL has done this in the domestic market. They flooded markets with huge amounts of capacity using widebodies on routes that most carriers never would. That strategy has now been abandoned and DL is desperately trying to get the widebodies out of the domestic market. DL will flood the international markets instead.

If that isn't the biggest bunch of shit I've ever heard from this guy. No wonder no one listens.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 43):
think Delta is trying to hard at getting just US-orginating traffic with this route, which may be a mistake.

Thats probably what they are doing. The people of EDI already have a few choices. British Airways, BMI, CO, VS to an extent, so they are probably going for the US traffic to put them over there and back. But then again, its still, what, 6 months away? Most people buy tickets around a 1-3 month time period, so starting advertising this early probably wouldn't do much good, but they should start before that window closes up.




OttoPylit
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MaverickM11
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 42):
The world DOES NOT revolve around New York folks.

Umm oooook.  Yeah sure Doesn't change the fact that there are a lot more NYC passengers than any ohter city in the US, and a higher percentage of them are originating in the NYC area, versus any other city.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5188
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:00 am

Uhhhhhh.....

Doesn't anyone else think that part of the reason that DL is announcing all this service is that it wants to make a case to its pilots' union that it is moving the airline in a direction that appeals to the pilots??? Kind of convenient on the timing of announcements in the face of the pilots threatening to cause the liquidation of the airline.

Imagine how easy it would be to connect through ATL if only Airtran were there! Kind of like how STL has become (after TWA) or MCI has become (after Eastern) or DEN (after CO pulled its hub out)! The pilots' union at DL is plainly and recklessly itching for a fight and a strike. Maybe a few years from now, when walking though the ghost town that ATL will become, one will come across a little memorial at the airport to honor all those jobs killed first by the EA mechanics union and maybe now by the DL pilots union.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 48):
as you normally do

Gee, doesn't this unnecessary personal attack violate the posting rules? I have never understood why the moderators allow you and your pal to routinely sling personal insults at people. Maybe they're awed by thinking wrongfully that you're an actual airline pilot.

[Edited 2006-02-10 20:43:00]
 
Zone1
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RE: Is Delta Over Doing It With All The New Service?

Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:47 am

I'm kind of surprised people think that ATL-NCE is going to fail. Of all the new routes, I would think this is one they really know what the demand is, since they already codeshare with AF.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 30):
The only reason DL is launching some of these routes is simply to find any place to put these planes...that's not domestic.

I really don't think this is their motivation. If they really wanted to get rid of their widebodies, they could reject the leases in bankruptcy court. It's not like they are moving that many planes from domestic to international. Just a handful of 763ERs and 764s. They will still have plenty of 763s and 764s that will serve their big cities.
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