A346Dude
Topic Author
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Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:38 am

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/s...31e1fb-160f-44b2-b788-966b3a4d2d1b

Interesting news from Transport Canada, who report there was a pax in the cockpit jump seat at the time of the crash.

I take it this destroys any miniscule chance I might have had to jump seat on my AC flight this week.  Silly

Though it seems unlikely, I wonder if the jumpseater had anything to do with the accident. Any thoughts?
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
rmd11
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:48 am

wasn't that crash ruled due to the weather?
none
 
CO7e7
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting A346Dude (Thread starter):
I wonder if the jumpseater had anything to do with the accident

No he did not, it's in the article.

But i always thought that the Captain was incharge of the aircraft, so if he gave a civilian the right to sit in a Jumpseat, then it's OK. Any thoughts?
 
A346Dude
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:54 am

I don't think the final investigation is complete yet, but weather was an obvious factor from the start.

Transport Canada seems to be treating the jump-seater as a concern unrelated to the accident itself, but I am wondering if the fact that someone was discovered to have been illegally jump-seating will have any implications for enthusiasts.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:55 am

The article also points out that:
The airport fire dept. didn't have info of hazardous o2 bottles, and so on for several model aircraft, including the A340; that it was illegal for any non-employee jumpseater after 9/11 in the USA or Canada; that one of the emergency doors was opened as the a/c rolled at the end of the runway, that the pilot's seat was ripped from it's floor mounts and other tidbits of info.
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:55 am

If the captain allows for a civilian to jumpseat, it's his call obviously, however depending on the type of admin you have at your airline, it may be "frowned" upon because it is bending rules in the FOM.
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting A346Dude (Thread starter):
I wonder if the jumpseater had anything to do with the accident?

Not unless the jumpseater said "Capitaine, devrions-nous vraiment essayer de débarquer dans cet orage?"  Wink

Seriously, I think the jumpseater's presence was purely coincidental to the accident. If his presence had been a factor, I think we all would have heard about long before now...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 2):
But i always thought that the Captain was incharge of the aircraft, so if he gave a civilian the right to sit in a Jumpseat, then it's OK. Any thoughts?

The captain is in charge of the aircraft, but must abide by company SOP's and regulations pertaining to the operating certificate of the aircraft, where the aircraft is flying, etc. It is just as illegal for there to be a civilian in the jumpseat, as it is illegal for passengers to smoke on board. Think of it this way, if a passenger is caught smoking on board an aircraft, a flight attendant brings this up to the captain, and the captain says "it's my airplane, go ahead and smoke another" does it make it legal?

It's silly and unfortunate that civilians can't occupy the jumpseat in North America, but it's a fact that lots of people on airliners.net still don't believe.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:10 pm

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 7):

It's silly and unfortunate that civilians can't occupy the jumpseat in North America, but it's a fact that lots of people on airliners.net still don't believe.

I disagree. A cockpit is not a observation gallery, its a place where serious work gets done. If you are sitting in the cockpit, I think you should have some idea of what is going on.

There is a big difference from jumpseating in VFR conditions in sparcely populated areas and jumpseating into ORD, YYZ, or any other busy airport.

I have no problems with airline employees sitting up there, especially if its for an educational purpose. But just any person....thats just asking for a distraction.

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
meister808
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 6):
"Capitaine, devrions-nous vraiment essayer de débarquer dans cet orage?"

Nice.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
GerbenYYZ
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:20 am

That won't make things any easier for the captain, is he still flying today, with AF?
 
FlySSC
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:29 am

This is not actually something very new :

297 passengers + the crew were on board.
Considering that the aircraft capacity was 30J/261Y, the 6 "extra" passengers were 3 babies (under 2 years old : no seats) and 3 jumpseats, not only 1.

30 + 291 + 3 babies + 3 Jumpseats = 297 PAX.
 
777jaah
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:34 am

A few weeks ago I asked the crew of a 763 if I could checkout the cockpit inflight (It was an US outbound flight to SouthAmerica). 45 min before landing, he told me to go inside (I was flying in J class, which I think made it easier). It was a nice gesture from him, and as a a.netter, tried to take some pix, but he in a very polite way, asked me not to, bc of the company's regulations. Anyway, when the FO began descent, I told him that I it was the right time to get back to my seat, at which to my surprise, he said that I could stick in the cockpit all the way to the gate...............GREAT. Trust me, stayed there as quiet and still as human possible. Great experience, mainly bc the FO was in charge of the ac and the captain explained to me all the landing details in real time. Hope I didn't broke any rules, but I never thought I had the chance to do that after 9/11.


Good luck.
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
pilot21
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting GerbenYYZ (Reply 10):
That won't make things any easier for the captain, is he still flying today, with AF?

I believe the Captain hurt his back very badly in the crash and was forced to retire early (although he was due to retire within months of the crash anyway from what I read in previous posts)
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
tguman
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 6):
"Capitaine, devrions-nous vraiment essayer de débarquer dans cet orage?"

Tranlation please, so that all who don't speak french may enjoy the comment.
thanks

TGUman
Life is a Mine Field.
 
positiverate
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:24 am

To quote the article: "It used to be routine for airlines to also give the seat to off-duty staff and passengers on full flights, a practice all but banned in Canada and the United States after 9/11, when cockpit doors were reinforced and locked to prevent a repetition of the terrorist hijackings."

Well, it either is or it isn't...
 
ikramerica
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting RMD11 (Reply 1):
wasn't that crash ruled due to the weather?

 Yeah sure
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
AMSSFO
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 8):
I have no problems with airline employees sitting up there, especially if its for an educational purpose. But just any person....thats just asking for a distraction.

what about relatives of employees?
from the article: a non-crew passenger, related to an Air France employee, occupied the jump seat throughout the flight.....
An Air France spokesman said the company allows passengers who are related to and travelling with an airline employee to sit in the jump seat. But it is up to the captain to approve the cockpit visitor, said the spokesman, who asked not to be named.



This part is a bigger cause of concern IMO:
One Transport Canada report also points to some glaring omissions in Pearson's copy of the "E.R.S. Aircraft Crash Chart" -- a booklet of blueprints for different planes, used by firefighters to safely respond to accidents...
Also, many of the pages appeared to be out of order, making the document "unnecesarily difficult" to use, the report said.
 
HikesWithEyes
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting Tguman (Reply 14):
Capitaine, devrions-nous vraiment essayer de débarquer dans cet orage?"

I think it says "Captain, should we really try to land in this storm?"
First, benzene in my Perrier, and now this!
 
cedarjet
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting Tguman (Reply 14):
Tranlation please, so that all who don't speak french may enjoy the comment.
thanks

Dude, you're Canadian. Why don't you translate it for us non-French speaking nations? (HikesWithEyes - an American of all people - is exactly right, "Captain, should we really try to land in this storm?" Haha.)
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
ABpositive
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:58 am

It sure would have been once in a lifetime experience for the jumpseater though!
 
tundra767
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:59 am

Traveling with AF crew friends I have flown in the cockpit many times on AF. On a few departures and arrivals into and out of the US and into and out of CDG. It is a great thing AF allows nonrev and crew companions to do this. As a flight attendant I really appreciate every oppertunity to fly up there as it allows one to see first hand what is going on.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Jumpseater Was On AF 358 At YYZ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:45 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 4):
that it was illegal for any non-employee jumpseater after 9/11 in the USA or Canada

For US carriers yes. Non US carriers, depends on the airline. I've done it more times than I can count on AeroMexico, in and out of the US...it's up to the country of origin, the airline, then the Captain.

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 7):
The captain is in charge of the aircraft, but must abide by company SOP's and regulations pertaining to the operating certificate of the aircraft, where the aircraft is flying, etc

Has nothing to do with where they're flying, or the OC for that matter.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan