HVNandrew
Topic Author
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DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:57 am

Following in FL's footsteps, DL has dropped the daily OH LGA-SRQ route effective April 2. Looks like DL is keeping the mainline Saturday morning nonstop for the time being.
 
md90fan
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:10 am

Quoting HVNandrew (Thread starter):
Following in FL's footsteps, DL has dropped the daily OH LGA-SRQ route effective April 2. Looks like DL is keeping the mainline Saturday morning nonstop for the time being.

So the route is only Sat.?...Another DL attempt at chipping away at FL's loads with RJ's  Sad
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:13 am

There's a big surprise.........NOT.

DL launched this route solely to drive off Airtran. The strategy worked, but it would be interesting to see how much money DL lost (or made  Yeah sure ) on this route. This type of scorched earth route planning strategy helps explain why DL is bleeding red ink.
 
Guest

RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:51 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 2):
There's a big surprise.........NOT.

DL launched this route solely to drive off Airtran. The strategy worked, but it would be interesting to see how much money DL lost (or made ) on this route. This type of scorched earth route planning strategy helps explain why DL is bleeding red ink.

Wait, I don't understand. Delta shouldn't compete?

If they put a 764 on it, you'd say they were capacity dumping. It's one measly RJ a day that was going against FL's larger 717, and you complain just the same.

We all know what a fan of Delta's RJ's you are...Are you saying that the little RJ is a worthy competitor against the 717? I never thought you'd have a change of heart!

Either way, they're keeping the Sat non stop, so your point is moot.

B
 
Cory6188
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:53 am

How does CO manage to do EWR-SRQ if both FL and DL couldn't do it out of LGA?
 
PVD757
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:58 am

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 4):
How does CO manage to do EWR-SRQ if both FL and DL couldn't do it out of LGA?

feed from PWM, MHT, BTV, BOS, PVD, BDL, BUF, ROC, SYR, ALB, YUL, YQB, etc., etc...
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:03 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 2):
This type of scorched earth route planning strategy helps explain why DL is bleeding red ink.

Not to worry... DL can always go back to their employees for another round of paycuts and stiff a few more creditors behind cover of bankruptcy. After which they will repeat the cycle of throwing more good money at bad money and return once again to their employees (for sure) and creditors (if they can) for still more concessions.
 
PVD757
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:09 am

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 6):
Not to worry... DL can always go back to their employees for another round of paycuts and stiff a few more creditors behind cover of bankruptcy. After which they will repeat the cycle of throwing more good money at bad money and return once again to their employees (for sure) and creditors (if they can) for still more concessions

Wow, I've heard this sentiment before...

are you saying that DL is following USAirways "top 10 ways to reduce costs while in bankrupcy" plan???

...sorry, I couldn't resist - I know it's not funny - moreso sad for the way the industry has decimated many a livlihood over the past few years.
 
quickmover
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:43 am

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 4):
How does CO manage to do EWR-SRQ if both FL and DL couldn't do it out of LGA?

A major hub at EWR to funnel passengers to and from.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:49 am

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 7):
are you saying that DL is following USAirways "top 10 ways to reduce costs while in bankrupcy" plan???

Actually, it seems like NW in particular, but DL as well, are determined to make US and UA look like "pikers" in exploiting the bankruptcy game at everyone's expense except executive management.
 
Guest

RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:51 am

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 9):
Actually, it seems like NW in particular, but DL as well, are determined to make US and UA look like "pikers" in exploiting the bankruptcy game at everyone's expense except executive management.

Please do some research regarding what cuts DL's current management have taken before posting such comments.

B
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:16 pm

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 9):
Actually, it seems like NW in particular, but DL as well, are determined to make US and UA look like "pikers" in exploiting the bankruptcy game at everyone's expense except executive management.

Ah yes, so it must obviously have been my imagination that a certain Gerry Grinstein has earned a total of $625K over two years for working as the CEO at the world's second largest airline and that management has also taken multiple paycuts, with the latest being 10%. Obviously, all just my imagination  Yeah sure .
 
CMHSRQ
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:48 pm

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 5):
Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 4):
How does CO manage to do EWR-SRQ if both FL and DL couldn't do it out of LGA?

feed from PWM, MHT, BTV, BOS, PVD, BDL, BUF, ROC, SYR, ALB, YUL, YQB, etc., etc...

When I was on the ramp/ops for COA in SRQ in the 90's a vast majority of the traffic is O and D. In the summer it was around 95% O/D and in the winter more like 80% due to additional flights to SRQ.

COA adds a daily flight to CLE today and an additional flight to SRQ on the 17th of Feb.


I thought the LGA flight would at least last through the May schedule change. Oh well. Here's hoping for JetBlue next fall.
The voice of moderation
 
PVD757
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:11 pm

Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 12):
When I was on the ramp/ops for COA in SRQ in the 90's a vast majority of the traffic is O and D. In the summer it was around 95% O/D and in the winter more like 80% due to additional flights to SRQ.

well then, I stand corrected. perhaps the small amount of feed that CO did get pushed the economics to the black for CO where the flights from LGA on DL (differant airline and airport costs - more for both probably) didn't cut the mustard...

other than that I have no idea why it works for CO and not for DL. Myabe DL just saw better use for the LGA slot, maybe they needed that aircraft to do another route somewhere else...
 
LGA777
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:14 pm

At least the flight is in place for Feb and March which have to be the two biggest months for demand NYC-FLA !

Cheers

LGA777
 
DL4EVR
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:19 am

How come they're selling the mainline route as an all Y config? They've done this to their Sat. mainline route to MCO also. Do you think that once song is over they will continue to sell all flights from NY to Florida as an all Y config?
We Love To Fly And It Shows.
 
CO2BGR
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting DL4EVR (Reply 15):
How come they're selling the mainline route as an all Y config? They've done this to their Sat. mainline route to MCO also. Do you think that once song is over they will continue to sell all flights from NY to Florida as an all Y config?

They use the shuttle aircraft that sit idle on the weekends
There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
 
iowaman
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:50 am

Jee, this comes as a real surprise after FL drops it.  Yeah sure
 
OttoPylit
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:29 am

Quoting NonRevKing (Reply 3):
Wait, I don't understand. Delta shouldn't compete?

If they put a 764 on it, you'd say they were capacity dumping. It's one measly RJ a day that was going against FL's larger 717, and you complain just the same.

We all know what a fan of Delta's RJ's you are...Are you saying that the little RJ is a worthy competitor against the 717? I never thought you'd have a change of heart!

Either way, they're keeping the Sat non stop, so your point is moot.

Apparently, YOU don't get it. Don't it know, its not Delta's job to compete. Its not Delta's job to try and do the "out of mind" thing like make a buck. Delta's only purpose is to drive all other airlines out of markets, period. Delta should be ashamed of doing this. They are picking on this helpless, little LCC and should be punished for doing so. How dare they EVEN think of compete.


HOWEVER, on the other side of the coin, my question is, does FL still get the whole $500,000 dollars in revenue subsidies for starting that flight that was promised by SRQ for the flight? Or could SRQ not wanted to continue paying subsidies any longer and so FL dropped the route instead of compete? Airtran is well known for this type of action. After all, how could anyone want this little ole CRJ as compared to this luxurious 717? I guess FlyPNS's theory of people not wanting to fly RJ's as compared to 717's is incorrect. Knowing FL, they will fight like crazy to keep the subsidies for the rest of the year, even though they will have only operated the flight for a quarter of the time. Apparently, there is at least some demand for the route, as DL still will operate MD-88 Sat only service. But obviously the demand wasn't there to support FL being able to compete. I guess FL expected no one would challenge them and it would be a monopolistic market, something Airtran has little of and keeps dwindling....quickly. Is that the smart way to run an airline, fly a route for free cash and hope no one challenges you, otherwise your back to square one? I guess the same should switch to FL's management.

Looks like the hand is on the other foot now, eh?



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:43 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 18):
How dare they EVEN think of compete.

Dumping capacity on markets where you know you will lose money isn't competition. It's just desperation.

You can knock Airtran's management all you want, but look at the financials of the two airlines. Airtran's management has delivered positive results, DL's management hasn't....unless losing $782 million is a good thing.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:31 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 19):
Airtran's management has delivered positive results

They lost $400,000 in the 4th quarter of 2005. Thats delivering postive results? If anything, they are following in the steps of Delta management.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 19):
Dumping capacity on markets where you know you will lose money isn't competition. It's just desperation.

HAHAHA, your desperation will get you nowhere. Dumping capacity on markets? Is that what they were doing?

Lets see, Airtran flew at least 1 717 a day to LGA with 117 seats.

Delta flew 1 Comair CRJ-700 to LGA with 70 seats. And on Saturdays only, had an MD-88. Thats dumping capacity? If anything, Airtran was dumping capacity because 5 days out of 6, they were flying a larger aircraft to LGA. So go ahead and try to spin this "dumping capacity" all you want. It doesn't ignore the clear fact you don't want to see. FL flew the market, DL competed with a smaller aircraft in a market that obviously couldn't support any more than 1 flight a day(if that) and the weaker airline pulled out. Let me guess, to reallocate the plane in other markets, right?

Nice try, but you failed miserably.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
iowaman
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:49 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 20):
They lost $400,000 in the 4th quarter of 2005.

Which percentage wise compared to there revenue, that is a very small operating loss, compared to DL's, which is much much larger. At least FL is trying.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:18 pm

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 21):
Which percentage wise compared to there revenue, that is a very small operating loss, compared to DL's, which is much much larger. At least FL is trying.

Sorry, anyway you look at it, a loss is a loss. Just because FL is trying doesn't exactly excuse that money out of their pocket. Delta is trying and succeeding at getting in line, but if they fail, trying just won't cut it. Comparing it to DL is comparing apples to oranges. Let's see, DL is the second largest worldwide airline in terms of passengers carried, with over 500 airplanes and thousands of destinations with their partners.

Airtran is a regional airline with limited links to the West Coast that has right at 100 airplanes or so and flies to a handful of cities(we'll say around 50 for average). Their size and operation isn't even a fraction of what Delta's is, so Delta stands to lose or make much more than Airtran would. Comparing the two doesn't do anything.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
73G
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:51 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 20):
They lost $400,000 in the 4th quarter of 2005

Yep, and managed to eek a profit for 2005...another year, another profit. Nothing fancy, I know. How'd your employer do?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 20):
and the weaker airline pulled out.

But, isnt DL pulling out too? If the point of your statement is that the stronger airline won...shouldn't the spoils go to the victor? And if the spoils go to the victor, shouldn't DL have basked in the glory of its victory and stuck with the route and raked in the 10's of passengers that flew the route daily?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 18):
I guess FL expected no one would challenge them and it would be a monopolistic market,

Actually, that sounds more like Delta's M.O. in the early 90's. I don't think any airline would be foolish enough to make that mistake again, Airtran or otherwise.
 
HVNandrew
Topic Author
Posts: 385
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:54 pm

Quoting CO2BGR (Reply 16):

I'm not sure that's true. The F class cabin is still on the aircraft, but being sold under coach fares, with coach service.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:33 pm

Quoting 73G (Reply 23):
But, isnt DL pulling out too? If the point of your statement is that the stronger airline won...shouldn't the spoils go to the victor? And if the spoils go to the victor, shouldn't DL have basked in the glory of its victory and stuck with the route and raked in the 10's of passengers that flew the route daily?

No, as said before, Delta is not pulling out of LGA-SRQ. The daily CR7 is being axed, but there is still the saturday-only MD-88.
 
73G
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:25 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 25):
No, as said before, Delta is not pulling out of LGA-SRQ

Alright, I'll rephrase. If DL won the battle of DAILY flights...shouldn't DL have kept a DAILY flight since they were the stronger airline?
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:53 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 22):
Delta is trying and succeeding at getting in line

Losing $782 million is succeeding??? You have a pretty odd definition of success.

Airtran saw a huge spike in fuel prices and was still able to post a small profit in 2005. DL saw a huge spike in fuel prices and just hemorraghed.

In the 4th quarter, Airtran had it's PRASM rise by 15.7% while DL's only rose 7.8%. Because Airtran increased unit revenue, they were able to counteract most of the increase in fuel. DL was unable to increase revenues enough, so they simply bled.
 
OttoPylit
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Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:01 am

Quoting 73G (Reply 23):
But, isnt DL pulling out too? If the point of your statement is that the stronger airline won...shouldn't the spoils go to the victor? And if the spoils go to the victor, shouldn't DL have basked in the glory of its victory and stuck with the route and raked in the 10's of passengers that flew the route daily?

Delta is keeping the flight and moving it up to larger equipment. And making it something that will make sense and doesn't need free money to do it. Like a normal airline would. So they are basking in the glory and keeping it.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 27):
Losing $782 million is succeeding??? You have a pretty odd definition of success.

Yea, Delta lost all that money on that ONE route. Pretty good, if I may say.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 27):
Airtran saw a huge spike in fuel prices and was still able to post a small profit in 2005. DL saw a huge spike in fuel prices and just hemorraghed.

And Airtran isn't even half the size of Delta and therefore doesn't have to buy as much fuel. So this equates how? Of course its easier to cover fuel costs when your not capable of buying thousands of pounds to cover a flight to London or Frankfurt or Rome. You can get back to me on that when Airtran is flying to those places, but I'm pretty sure the 717 and 73G of Airtran's specifications won't cut it, not that anyone would fly that route without a meal anyway. Ever notice how your posts go nowhere or make a point?

Quoting 73G (Reply 26):
If DL won the battle of DAILY flights...shouldn't DL have kept a DAILY flight since they were the stronger airline?

But why keep a flight when free cash isn't being given out. Delta stepped in and said, "We can make this happen, but the revenue won't stand alone daily, so it will go weekend only, and that will create revenue."



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 28):
And Airtran isn't even half the size of Delta and therefore doesn't have to buy as much fuel.

So what? Airtran also brings in substantially less revenue then DL because of their much smaller size.

The point I'm making is that Airtran offset the huge surge in fuel prices, buy increasing revenues (unit RASM rose 15.7%). That's what a good management team does.

DL only increased unit RASM by 7.8% and wasn't able to offset the surge in fuel prices.
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 29):
DL only increased unit RASM by 7.8% and wasn't able to offset the surge in fuel prices.

Which is great considering DL introduced Simplifares in the first quarter of 2005. 2006 will be a better comparison. FL raised their RASM against their same price structure of 2004 while DL raised it against a much lower, but more competitive pricing structure they introduced this previous year.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 29):
So what? Airtran also brings in substantially less revenue then DL because of their much smaller size.

That is what he is saying. You have to put it to scale, not just compare bottom line to bottom line.

Quoting 73G (Reply 26):
Alright, I'll rephrase. If DL won the battle of DAILY flights...shouldn't DL have kept a DAILY flight since they were the stronger airline?

Just like FL, DL has no trouble funneling the weekday passengers through ATL. Especially with better flight options and more capacity.

Quoting 73G (Reply 23):
And if the spoils go to the victor, shouldn't DL have basked in the glory of its victory and stuck with the route and raked in the 10's of passengers that flew the route daily?

Just like taking a knee in football. No point in running up the score  Smile.
Actually with all Florida secondary airports if you aren't funneling a hub passengers will find a way to not take the direct flight. They beg for it and then when the airline gives it to them it is either too early or too late or still not cheap enough.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
stlgph
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:21 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 20):
Dumping capacity on markets? Is that what they were doing?

yep. both airlines did it and no one got anywhere.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
wukka
Posts: 884
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:08 pm

RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:35 pm

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 30):
Which is great considering DL introduced Simplifares in the first quarter of 2005.

But "Simplifares" has been pretty weak at CVG, even though they were a large part of the initial test market for the program and were claimed as a huge success by DL's PR department. If they were that brilliant, why are my fares just as out of control (if not more) as they were before?

Your username suits the airline well, at least around here... Delta -- "Missing In Action".

I hope that I'm wrong, but give it five years and we'll see. With CVG and their dependancy on DL, the only thing that we'll see rolling on those runways will be tumbleweeds... or something other than widgets.

It's a shame because it's a fairly nice airport.
We can agree to disagree.
 
DeltaMIA
Posts: 1622
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:53 am

RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:31 pm

Quoting Wukka (Reply 32):
But "Simplifares" has been pretty weak at CVG, even though they were a large part of the initial test market for the program and were claimed as a huge success by DL's PR department.

Show me proof. I wasn't talking about the success of Simplifares I was referring to why DL's RASM increase wasn't as high as Airtran's.

Quoting Wukka (Reply 32):
If they were that brilliant, why are my fares just as out of control (if not more) as they were before?

Do you have examples? Simplifares introduces consistent fares in a market as well as no longer charging unrestricted fares based on mileage as was the case historically. As the revenue from unrestricted fares drops so should the RASM, however DL was successful in lowering their costs during 2005 as well.

Quoting Wukka (Reply 32):
Your username suits the airline well, at least around here... Delta -- "Missing In Action".

Except in the world of Civil Aviation MIA is the airport code for a large airport in South Florida.

Quoting Wukka (Reply 32):
It's a shame because it's a fairly nice airport.

I don't think CVG is the only airport that will be struggling to cope with the loss of Delta, but at least your looking out for everybody.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
wukka
Posts: 884
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RE: DL Drops LGA-SRQ

Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:12 pm

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 33):
Show me proof.

It increased O&D marginally. It's still cheaper to drive within 100 miles of CVG and connect at CVG using Delta and its' feeders (including its' own OH).

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 33):
Do you have examples?

Absolutely. Expedia.com, Hotwire.com, Travelocity.com, Cheaptickets.com, and perhaps the most damning evidence of all, Delta.com. Pick your trip out of CVG, it doesn't really matter. Try it. You'll be surprised. I triple-dog-dare you.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 33):
Except in the world of Civil Aviation MIA is the airport code for a large airport in South Florida.

No shit, Sherlock... but in this case, "Missing in Action" is FAR more appropriate.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 33):
I don't think CVG is the only airport that will be struggling to cope with the loss of Delta

Probably not, but if it keeps going the way things are, there's going to be plenty of struggling going on for DL. As for O&D? They keep acting like this and I'll drive 75 miles to screw the Widget, yet still get my miles via a SkyTeam partner.

If they get their shit together and continue to be the holy savior of CVG, then great; if not, I'll have a great place to open a drag strip and see what my Hayabusa can do without worrying about the po-po. Especially since they just opened 18/36C while DL just screwed them by cutting roughly 26 percent of domestic traffic out of here.
We can agree to disagree.